30000 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: Namarupa - A comment Dear Eznir: Some discriminations to chew on: Is NamaRupa internal or external or both or neither ? Is NamaRupa local or global or both or neither ? Is NamaRupa separable or inseparable or both or neither ? Is Namarupa 2 things or 1 thing or both or neither ? : - ] 30001 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: < snip > As I have been explaining, that is because the Buddha didn't teach `there is no self', he taught to not view anything as `self' in order to attain liberation. Metta, James KKT: I like very much your statement, James. It's very clear. I think it would be used to sum up the many endlessly discussions about Anatta: 1. the Buddha didn't teach `there is no self' 2. he taught to not view anything as `self' in order to attain liberation. But I know many people do not agree with this conclusion :-)) Metta, KKT 30002 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hello Howard, I second your recommendation of Garfiled's translation and commentary of the Mulamadhyamakakarika. That is the book I read. Kalupahana I would recommend 'A History of Buddhist Philosophy.' Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Michael (and Sarah) - In a message dated 2/12/04 4:42:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > I am sure it will be fascinating. Maybe you can also be open minded and read > > Kalupahana or even better, read the Mulamadyamakakarika by Nagarjuna. > ========================= Should you ever choose to read the MMK, though Michael may disagree, I recommend that you read the translation and commentary by Garfield rather than the one by Kalupahana. (Garfield's treatment is wonderful, IMO, whereas I find Kaulpahana's commentary, although certainly having value, to be idiosyncratic.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30003 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack KH: >> Where in the Tipitaka, is there any suggestion of formal vipassana meditation? >> J: > The Anapanasati Sutta lists a complete meditation "program" in 16 trainings/meditations/steps/lessons. The last four trainings are vipassana. --------------------- K:In the Buddha's day, many thousands of men and women attained enlightenment. From the suttas, we know that the vast majority attained by insight (vipassana) on its own. Of the others, some developed jhana prior to insight, some, developed jhana after insight and a very select few developed jhana and insight in tandem. The Anapanasati-sutta describes this last-named method. It may seem as if there is a watered-down version of mindfulness-of- breath, that was taught for non-jhana practitioners, but that is not the case. (If asked, I could find references (from other dsg posts) but references are not my strong point:-) ) Another way to explain the Anapanasati Sutta is that it presents a complete mental development program that includes vipassana and samadhi. Many feel that vipassana and samadhi were split apart as separate practices much later than when the Buddha taught and was not intended by him. -------------- J : > Yes, "ground under the feet" is a concept. I think this concept might be a useful teaching tool in some occasions. If used it should be followed by a more useful teaching tool, noticing hardness where your feet hit the ground. Feet and ground are also concepts but necessary, in my opinion, to teaching this. > ------------------------- K:I agree; feet and ground are concepts while hardness is a reality. But what I am saying is; the hardness I experience, when I try to direct my attention to it, is also a concept: There is the concept of an area in space that is 'occupied' by the physical feeling of hardness. You might say I need to meditate more intensely but I would say no amount of trying would succeed in catching the rupa, `hardness.' As a mere physical phenomenon, it comes and goes in less than one billionth of a second. Each arising and passing away of a citta and cetasaika does last only one billionth of a second. but, we can be aware of many arising and passing aways. It is like seeing a movie. We don't see the individual frame but we do see a picture of a horse, car, etc. J: > "I" sit down to "try" to see that phenomena arise and enter the sense doors. If one does this for a time, subject (the I) and sense object fall away and there is just seeing. Without trying nothing happens. But, without leaving trying behind at one point, the results at the end of the path don't happen either. --------------- K:`Trying' involves the concept of a self who is trying. `Not trying' involves the concept of a self who is not trying. Neither of these two paths leads to enlightenment. As the Buddha said, "Neither by striving nor by standing still did I cross the flood." (Ongha-sutta (sp?)) Right understanding comes from the Buddha, not from ritualistic practices (sorry if ritualistic is a strong word). It is acquired through hearing the Dhamma, considering it, discussing it with wise friends, and by knowing the present conditioned dhammas for what they are (anicca, dukkha and anatta). I think there is a danger in not realizing that the Buddha had many teachings that applied to people at different points of their path. At one point, trying mind is very important. At another point, one relaxes. In my opinion, the Buddha did prescribe ritualistic practices, for example, going off into the forest and sitting down by a tree to meditate. But, he made sure that people understood that rituals (and concepts) were worthless unless they pointed to something that would change us. With all that said, Ken, what is your practice? Do you meditate? Do you try to see in your own experience all that we are talking about? jack 30004 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cultivating Absorption Leads to Cessation Hi Jeff KO - sorry for the delay in answering you post bc I want to take time to think about your post. %%%%%% Jeff: Who is the author of the Abhidhamma, and how do we know he or she was enlightened? Please do not say it was the Buddha, because I believe that claim is rather flimsy. Please also do not say it was Sariputa who spoke it to the angels (devas), that rather fantastic claim is in part why I suspect its origin and thus its validity. %%%%%% KO: Jeff, i always have to explain this simple principle, only Buddha can teach before anyone can know or teach about it. I have said this before without Buddha there will no Abhidhamma, and Ven Sariputta will not have that kind of wisdom to do it. Je: just because some translator didn't get the translation right? KO: I am not an expert of pali so cant comment. I think that will depends on how it is being presented in pali what is the meaning of vicara and vitakka. I dont believe those translators will translate it wrongly bc usually they will examine whether these terms are used in different ways and what is the best definition of it. Second jhana (joy, no concentration needed): piiti (ecstasy) Sukha (joy) Ekaggatha (one-pointedness) KO: Can you explain from 2nd jhanas onwards why there is no need for concentration as written by you. Since you said concentration leads to jhanas – is there a contradiction. Jeff - Since there seems to be no evidence in the Pali canon for giving rise to the 7 factors of enlightenment without jhana, then it seems reasonable to say that absorption (jhana) is essential in giving rise to at least four of seven necessary conditions for enlightenment. KO - But the qn is, is jhana the cause of wisdom. If jhana is the cause of wisdom, then Buddha would have been enlighted earlier, I read somewhere when he was young, he enter the jhanas. Furthermore, if Jhana is the cause of wisdom, then the ascetics of the Brahmas during Buddha time will have been enlighted. If jhana is the cause of wisdom, then Buddha will have not teach the restraining of the six senses, the not-self principle. Isnt this a waste of times since in the end we just need jhanas. Ken O 30005 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 2/13/04 12:37:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for your post - as always, very meaty! (No offence to > vegetarians). Some comments below: > > You wrote: > Either there are volitional impulses during sleep or not. But if > there > >is no consciousness (say in deep, dreamless sleep), not even at a > very low > >level, then I don't believe there could be what are normally called > thoughts - > >it would have to be just somesort of unconscious processing. But > even that is > >probably due to volition that occured when there *was* > consciousness. After > >all, when do we wake up having discovered something? Usually when > having intently > >thought about it (prior to going to sleep) with the purpose of > obtaining a > >solution. > > A: Very interesting. But I am trying to marry this new > scientific "fact" with the Abhidhammic mind-moment theory and see if > it fits. Accordingly, even when we sleep, there has to be citta and > cetasikas (always including cetana). What is different, then, > between sleeping and waking mind-moments? It seems that when we are > awake, there is much conceptual thinking about "what we are doing". > During sleep, this thinking is absent/minimal. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly, except, often, when dreaming. But as far as "cittas and cetasikas" arising, if cittas arises, there is awareness - for that is what citta is. Now, of course, the level of awareness might also be *very* low, and moreover, the level may be so low as to leave no appreciable memory trace, so that upon resuming more "normal" awareness, there is no memory of the mental processing that occurred while sleeping. I don't rule out subliminal mental processes. I tend to think of them as processes that occur at such a low level that they normally escape notice - perhaps certain aspects of the processes of cittas are missing - maybe registration cittas missing, or some such thing. BTW, one thing that I have noticed in meditating, particularly when doing focussed, samatha meditation such as with a mantra, is that there seems to be a normally subliminal, "subterranean" flow of thoughts (mental images etc - very much like dream sequences) going on all the time, but escaping "conscious notice". This subterranean stream is noticed in certain stages of meditating; at least such is my experience. ---------------------------------------------------- And yet volition is > > still at work as one of the King's retinue. > You say that the volition may come from those waking moments when, > for example, we were working on the problem at hand. Yes, but there > is only one present mind-moment conditioned by the previous one and > the marking function of sanna. Given that we can't really work out > precisely what conditions are at work and how they affect the > cetasikas,we simply can't predict (or direct) the conditionality > process. Sometimes that makes us feel helpless. Sometimes it makes > us feel free. I know what you mean when you suggest we > can "influence" the process but when I think along those lines, I > sometimes think I am treating cetana as a "self" (thinking "that > volition is me and mine"). Therein lies the danger, methinks. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, sure. All "our" mental processing is impersonal, but, not being arahants, we are afflicted witha sense of self. ---------------------------------------------- > > You wrote: > As an example, when we are walking down a hall, reach > >the end, and then turn around, before the turning there is an > impulse to > >turn. We are almost never aware of that impulse, but it is there. > > A: I don't want to make too much of this issue. I am reminded of > what Stephen Jay Gould used to say about evolution i.e. that it is > both fact and theory - fact, because we know it occurs, and theory, > because we don't know exactly how it occurs. Similarly, here, I > think we both take volition as fact, but differ in our understanding > of how it operates. > I think there is some benefit to be gained by taking another Stephen > Jay Gould angle. The creationists used to point to the perfection of > living beings as an argument for creationism. Look at the beautiful > hummingbird with its bill that fits precisely into the flower that it > feeds upon. How could that perfection be the product of a haphazard > process like evolution? Surely it is the work of a perfect designer > god! Gould always answered this by saying well and good. But the > creationists must also acknowledge and explain the rank clumsiness of > some animals' adaptations eg the panda's thumb - a very poor > adaptation used by the panda to hold bamboo while chewing it. The > panda's thumb would not win any design awards! > Here, Howard, it's well and good to point to these volitional > impulses that are, lo and behold, followed by the intended behaviour. > We walk down a hall and intend to turn around and, lo and behold, we > do turn around. But we must also deal with the volitional impulses > that are NOT followed through. To my mind, it is these impulses that > expose conditionality at work. It is these impulses that demonstrate > that there is much more to the equation than "intention precedes > action" therefore one needs to bring on (force) intention and Voila! > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly! An impulse is but one condition. But effective conditionality requires the coming together of (several) conditions. This is why cetana is mere influencing, and not control. -------------------------------------------------- > That's not your view, I know. All I am saying is that I think it > vital that we have a sense of dealing with a very complex phenomenon > where the illusion of "self" is very potent. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that it is definitely true that cetana is a phenomenon that plays a critical role in the arising of sense of self, and thus constitutes an area of "danger". This is one reason why noticing volitional impulses and seeing their impersonality is such an important aspect of "insight meditation". Soe phenomena are more critical of notice and clear mindfulness than others. Cetana is one of these. ------------------------------------------------ > > You wrote: > As I see no-control on this list, it appears frequently to me to a > >doctrine of hopelessness, leading as it does to a belief that there > is no point > >to meditating! (In fact, there is no point to do anything at all, > because > >"Whatever arises will arise when the conditions for it to arise are > present," > >ignoring entirely that volitional personal actions are among the > needed > >conditions.) > > A: Well, Howard, I will playfully accuse you of "boxing at shadows" > here. Surely the other side of this "no control" viewpoint is that, > if the conditions arise for someone to meditate, they will meditate. > I don't have a problem with that at all. The caution is one that > applies to us all - beware the creeping illusion of "self"! > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. But I do not believe I am deluded when I seem to see a sense of helplessness/hopelessness often surfacing here. --------------------------------------------- > Best wishes > Andrew > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30006 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/13/04 1:11:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello KenO and Howard, and all, > > This "using self to get rid of/overcome the idea of self" was > something I briefly tried to bring up in Bangkok. > People said they had heard of the expression, but moved on to other > things. There was a bit of a back log of questions. :-) Wouldn't it > be possible to start with the idea of a self who could meditate and > make states arise, and slowly move away from it. --------------------------------------------- Howard: For sure! We start where we are, not where we'd like to be. ----------------------------------------------- > It still feels pretty helpless not to have a method. Meditating is > so satisfying - one is DOING something. > > metta and peace, > Christine ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30007 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: bodily intimation, 1 Dear Nina > I post a few sections of my Rupas, as an introduction to this subject we > shall study now in the Vis., namely: bodily intimation and verbal > intimation. -------------------------------------------------------------------- At my first readings on Abhidhamma, I always took termas like Kayaniññatti and vagiviññatti (Bodily Intimation and verbal intimation) as two of the 10 elements that are considered not Real (anipphanannarupa). Right - I thought - since Rupa is real and partakes some definitions with "matter" at a philosophical sense.This definition seemed correct for me. But... I've read with interest your preview below, Nina, and this clarified some of my ideas about it. If all anipphanannarupa are raised up and produced by Citta, so the term "Not Real" don't fit so much. If something is produced by Citta, so it is real at The Citta realm... and, stretching this argument more and more, if you consider Citta as a material process at our brains and nerves - from sense- doors to material sense organs and mind at the last end - so Rupas still partake such definitions with "matter" even only at the Citta realms: anipphanannarupa as this own word seems to significate. I read all Visuddhimagga chapter one and I am eager to jump to Chapter XIV only to follow up the discussions at a more safe distance...hahahah!!!! mettaya, Ícaro (The Nina's preview on anipphanannarupas follows below) > > Intimation through Body and Speech > > Citta is one of the four factors that produces rúpa. We look different when > we laugh, when we cry, when we are angry or when we are generous. Then we > can notice that citta produces rúpa. > Bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) and speech intimation (vacíviññatti) are > two kinds of rúpa, originated by citta. They are not produced by the other > three factors that can produce rúpa, by kamma, temperature or nutrition. > As to bodily intimation, this is movement of the body, of the limbs, facial > movement or gestures which display our intentions, be they wholesome or > unwholesome. The intention expressed through bodily intimation can be > understood by others, even by animals. Bodily intimation itself is rúpa, it > does not know anything. We read in the ³Dhammasangani² (§ 636): > > What is that rúpa which is bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti)? > That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, in > response to a thought, whether good or bad, or indeterminate (kiriyacitta), > on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or glances > around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth - the intimation, the > making known, the state of having made known - this is that rúpa which > constitutes bodily intimation. > > According to the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Book I, Part III, 82, 83), in the case of > bodily intimation citta produces the ³eight inseparable rúpas² 1 and among > them the element of air (wind, oscillation or motion) plays its specific > part in supporting the body and strengthen the postures. We read: > > ... But there is a certain peculiar, unique mode of change in the primaries > (four Great Elements) when set up by mind, through which, as a condition, > mobility (the element of wind or motion) is able to strengthen, support and > agitate the coexistent body. This is intimation. ... Because it is a > capacity of communicating, it is called ³intimation². What does it > communicate? A certain wish communicable by an act of the body. If anyone > stands in the path of the eye, raises his hands or feet, shakes his head or > brow, the movement of his hands, etc. are visible. Intimation, however, is > not so visible; it is only knowable by the mind. For one sees by the eye a > colour-surface moving by virtue of the change of position in hands, etc. 2. > But by reflecting on it as intimation, one knows it by > mind-door-consciousness, thus: ³I imagine that this man wishes me to do this > or that act.²... > (to be continued) 30008 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: bodily intimation, 1 Typo: I always took termas ----------------------------------------- Don't take me wrong!!! "Termas"are a portuguese translation of the latin "Termae"... The right word is "terms" at all senses and freudian failed acts!!!! Mettaya, :-))))))))))), Ícaro 30009 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 2/13/04 2:49:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I don't have the time right now. So I hope you don't mind if I > answer to this later on?! > > Metta, > Sukin > ======================== Of *course*! Anyway, it will take time to sift the content from the extraneous symbols! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30010 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, James - In a message dated 2/13/04 4:17:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > So, according to the Buddha, body-speech-mind volition is > conditioned either by oneself or by others, until there is > enlightenment and then there is no more conditioning. How can it be > that volition is conditioned by `oneself' if there is no self? ======================= It's simply the convenient, standard mode of expression. The Buddha said "I", "me", and "mine" all the time. But he also said that he used concepts without being fooled by them. One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but unless one is a child or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, one knows that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for that matter, any actual thing called "the sky". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30011 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/13/04 9:03:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > [For] Kalupahana I would recommend 'A History of Buddhist Philosophy.' > ===================== Yes, I agree. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30012 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, Howard: It's simply the convenient, standard mode of expression. The Buddha said "I", "me", and "mine" all the time. But he also said that he used concepts without being fooled by them. James: No, I believe he said that he spoke of such things without being attached to them; he didn't say `without being `fooled' by them'. This is a significant difference because it would imply that he was speaking falsehoods and knew he way lying all the while. Please quote a reference where he uses the phrase `fooled by them', or something along those lines (I know you don't like to look for sources but you have the burden of proof in this regard). Howard: One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but unless one is a child or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, one knows that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for that matter, any actual thing called "the sky". James: Ahhh…this is a perfect example to explain why there are two truths!!! Thank you. From far away, one can see a rainbow and one can see the sky, but when one is close up the rainbow is gone and the sky is just space. So, which is it? It is both--It depends on your perspective. Even though the perspective of the unenlightened is different from the perspective of the enlightened, they both have a different perspective of the same reality. It would be really weird to tell people that there aren't any rainbows wouldn't it? There are rainbows and there is a sky, and there are people and there are dhammas. It really doesn't have to be either/or. The duality of the mind creates this need to have one false and the other true. This is the one area, Howard, where I strongly disagree with you. Sorry ;-(. Metta, James 30013 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:44am Subject: smile of the Buddha Dear Ken Ong, Soon when I have time I shall give more texts. A. Sujin said: when ahetuka kiriya citta produces it, it arises after the Buddha's ~naa.na.It is like in tne text you quote here. Some people may not know that motivation here is a translation of hetu, root. I received more texts in Bgk about the subject. I have to run, Nina. > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > >> The smiling cittas is from the commentary to the Summary of the >> Topics of Abhidhamma chapter six number 34 >> 30014 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, James - In a message dated 2/13/04 12:58:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Howard: It's simply the convenient, standard mode of expression. The > Buddha said "I", "me", and "mine" all the time. But he also said that > he used concepts without being fooled by them. > > James: No, I believe he said that he spoke of such things without > being attached to them; he didn't say `without being `fooled' by > them'. This is a significant difference because it would imply that > he was speaking falsehoods and knew he way lying all the while. > Please quote a reference where he uses the phrase `fooled by them', > or something along those lines (I know you don't like to look for > sources but you have the burden of proof in this regard). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I've actually seen the "not fooled by" alleged statement referred to often, but I've never seen a sutta reference. If anybody knows one, I'd be interested in hearing of it. ----------------------------------------------- > > Howard: One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but unless one is a > child or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, > one knows that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for > that matter, any actual thing called "the sky". > > James: Ahhh…this is a perfect example to explain why there are two > truths!!! Thank you. From far away, one can see a rainbow and one > can see the sky, but when one is close up the rainbow is gone and the > sky is just space. So, which is it? It is both--It depends on your > perspective. Even though the perspective of the unenlightened is > different from the perspective of the enlightened, they both have a > different perspective of the same reality. It would be really weird > to tell people that there aren't any rainbows wouldn't it? There are > rainbows and there is a sky, and there are people and there are > dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there are all these things *so to speak*, that is - conventionally speaking. When I now make the statement "I am sitting at the computer typing on the keyboard," I am telling the truth, but the statement is so packed with abbreviational terms that to unpack it, even moderately, would probably require all the storage on my hard disk to hold the unpacked, literal formulation. I don't see conventional truth as falsehood, but as abbreviation for literal truth. -------------------------------------------------- It really doesn't have to be either/or. The duality of the > > mind creates this need to have one false and the other true. This is > the one area, Howard, where I strongly disagree with you. Sorry ;-(. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I suspect that our positions differ here, but are not diametrically opposed. ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, James > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30015 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hello Howard, This sutta comes to mind, perhaps it may be relevant: DN9 "these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Tathaagata uses without misapprehending them.' metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I've actually seen the "not fooled by" alleged statement referred to > often, but I've never seen a sutta reference. If anybody knows one, I'd be > interested in hearing of it. > ----------------------------------------------- 30016 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bodily intimation, 1 Hi Nina, Welcome back. One question. Is the printed word considered to be bodily intimation? I expect you will say "no", but consider, it is a rupa, it "intimates a wish", and it is produced by consciousness. Larry 30017 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Christine (and James) - In a message dated 2/13/04 6:14:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > This sutta comes to mind, perhaps it may be relevant: > > DN9 > "these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations > in common use in the world, which the Tathaagata uses without > misapprehending them.' > > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================= Thank you!! This must be it. On ATI, the formulation is as follows: ___________________________ "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." [10] 10. The Commentary takes this is as the Buddha's affirmation of the idea -- which in later centuries became current in all schools of Buddhism -- that he spoke truth on two levels: conventional and ultimate. In context, though, the Buddha seems to be referring merely to the fact that he has adopted the linguistic usages of his interlocutors simply for the sake of discussion, and that they should not be interpreted out of context. ------------------------------------------------- To me, as is so often the case with me ;-), the commentary seems to be a stretch. To me, this is certainly pointing out mere manner of speaking as opposed to literality. One thing I do note, though, is that in this ATI formulation, it says "without grasping at them" (in line with what James said) as opposed to "without misapprehending them" (as you wrote, Christine). Christine, where did you find the formulation you gave? (Also, if anyone on the list has the Pali for this, I'd appreciate hearing which is the better translation.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30018 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Ken O, Indeed, Ken, it is impossible for form to control itself as form lends itself to dis-ease. Form lends itself to dis-ease preciesly because form is not self. And no one can make what is impermanent permanent, what is dukkha not dukkha, what is not self oneself. When I said one can control oneself in body, speech, and mind, I am not talking about making bodily actions, verbal actions, and mental actions permanent, not dukkha, and oneself. As what the Buddha taught in Anguttara Nikaya II.19 Kusala Sutta Skillful http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" While it is impossible for one to make bodily actions, verbal actions, and mental actions permanent, not dukkha, oneself, it is entirely possible for one to do what is skillful/wholesome/kusala and refrain from what is unskillful/unwholesome/akusala in body, speech, and mind. In that sense, I said that it is entirely possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, and mind. In that sense, it is entirely possible for one to restrain and control his body actions, verbal actions, and mental actions, not to make them permanent, not dukkha, self, but to abandon what is unskillful and develop what is skillful. The question "what is oneself?" is to be put aside since it leads to speculation and entanglement. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > > Now, consider the following two statements: > > > > It is impossible for form to control itself. > > It is entirely possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, > > and mind. > > > > Do you think that these two statement contradict each other? > > > > You came up with the question "How do we control something that is > > not self." But I did not say we can control something that is not > > self. Nor did I say we cannot control something that is not self. > > > > Your question has nothing to do with what I said that: > > > > It is impossible for form to control itself. > > It is entirely possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, > > k: Since form cannot control itself, then how does one say that one > can control form (body and speech) in the first place? Then in > other words, if one can control oneself, then one has to ask what is > oneself? Was it me I or myself or what....? Think about it and reply > to me. > > > Ken O 30019 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Dear Phamluam: > But I know many people > do not agree with this > conclusion :-)) ------------------------------------------------------------------ James really likes to point out that Buddha had focused his dispensation on human beings and their human condition of suffering and final liberation and not only on philosophical grounds. That´s O.K. if you take some one by hand, consolating his-her "Soul" and so on with some preaching adequate at some particular situation. But Buddha HAS a corpus of knowledge, well poised and frameworked on what I call "Rule of Language" , either on symbols or over the wonderful syntatical strucuture of Pali Language. But Anatta - non-self - is one of the main pillars of all Buddhism, and I dare to say: "Sariputta is the Zen of Angulimala". Mettaya, Ícaro 30020 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hello Howard, My quote came from 'The Long Discourses of the Buddha' A translation of the Diigha Nikaaya by Maurice Walshe. The full DN 9.53 is "So too, whenever the gross acquired self is present, we do not speak of the mind-made or formless acquired self; whenever the mind-made acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or formless acquired self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, we speak of the formless acquired self. But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speeh designations in common use inthe world, which the Tathaagata uses without misapprehending them.' [n. 224] Note 224: An improtant reference tot the two truths referred to in DA as 'conventional speech' (sammuti-kathaa). See Introduction, p. 31f. It is important to be aware of the level of truth at which any statements are made. In MA (ad MN5: Anangana Sutta), the following verse is quoted (source unknown): 'Two truths the Buddha, best of all who speak, declared: Conventional and ultimate - no third can be, Terms agreed are true by usage of the world; Words of ultimate significance are true In terms of dhammas. Thus the Lord, a Teacher, he Who's skilled in this world's speech, can use it, and not lie.' I'll take a look at the introduction p. 31f and post it later if relevant and not TOO long. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine (and James) - > > In a message dated 2/13/04 6:14:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > Hello Howard, > > > > This sutta comes to mind, perhaps it may be relevant: > > > > DN9 > > "these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations > > in common use in the world, which the Tathaagata uses without > > misapprehending them.' > > > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > ============================= > Thank you!! This must be it. On ATI, the formulation is as follows: > ___________________________ > "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the > world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata > expresses himself but without grasping to them." [10] > > 10. The Commentary takes this is as the Buddha's affirmation of the idea -- > which in later centuries became current in all schools of Buddhism - - that he > spoke truth on two levels: conventional and ultimate. In context, though, the > Buddha seems to be referring merely to the fact that he has adopted the > linguistic usages of his interlocutors simply for the sake of discussion, and that > they should not be interpreted out of context. > ------------------------------------------------- > To me, as is so often the case with me ;-), the commentary seems to be > a stretch. To me, this is certainly pointing out mere manner of speaking as > opposed to literality. One thing I do note, though, is that in this ATI > formulation, it says "without grasping at them" (in line with what James said) as > opposed to "without > misapprehending them" (as you wrote, Christine). Christine, where did you > find the formulation you gave? (Also, if anyone on the list has the Pali for > this, I'd appreciate hearing which is the better translation.) > > With metta, > Howard 30021 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:59pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hello James You wrote: Let's look at what the Buddha taught about volition. AN > 84 "Volition": > (snip) > James: So, according to the Buddha, body-speech-mind volition is > conditioned either by oneself or by others, until there is > enlightenment and then there is no more conditioning. How can it be > that volition is conditioned by `oneself' if there is no self? As I > have been explaining, that is because the Buddha didn't teach `there > is no self', he taught to not view anything as `self' in order to > attain liberation. A: In all honesty, I can't claim to know what the Buddha really taught but for the sake of hopefully-elucidating discussion, I will follow your path and present a quotation from the suttas and rest my case on it. In the Bahudhatuka Sutta (MN 115.12), the Buddha tells Ananda that "it is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat ANYTHING as self" (my emphasis). If your view is right, shouldn't the Buddha have said "whilst self may or may not exist, one shouldn't treat anything as self in order to attain liberation"? Why didn't he? James, am I correct in thinking that your view says that there IS a self but we should not cling to it in order to attain liberation? If I am correct in so thinking, can you see how this view is in contradiction of my sutta reference? If there IS a self, surely a Buddha (who has right view, naturally)would treat whatever-it-is as "self"? Or do you view the existence or not of "self" as an imponderable? If so, why is it never included in the definition of acinteyya? Why don't you find any satisfaction in the view that "self" is a conventional designation/reality (like "chariot") that is impermanent and only exists through a process of derivation? Isn't any other view either sitting on the fence or Hinduism? Sorry, mate, but I think you bear the onus of proof on this one (and it is one of the "biggies" in Buddhism) and you haven't got my vote yet. LOL! Andrew 30022 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hello Howard, and all, On p.31 in his Introduction, Walshe states: "An important and often overlooked aspect of the Buddhist teaching concerns the levels of truth, failure to appreciate which has led to many errors (see n.220). Very often the Buddha talks in the Suttas in terms of conventional or relative truth (sammuti- or vohaara- sacca), according to which people and things exist just as they appear to the naive understanding. Elsewhere, however, when addressing an audience capable of appreciating his meaning, he speaks in terms of ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca), according to which 'existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found' (Buddhist Dictionary under Paramattha). In the Abhidhamma, the entire exposition is in terms of ultimate truth. It may also be observed that many 'Zen paradoxes' and the like realyl owe their puzzling character to their being put in terms of ultimate, not of relative truth. The full understanding of ultimate truth can, of course, only be gained by profound insight, but it is possible to become increasingly aware of the distinction. There would seem in fact to be a close parallel in modern times in the difference between our naive world-view and that of the physicist, both points of view having their use in their own sphere. Thus, conventionally speaking, or according to the naive world-view, there are solid objects such as tables and chairs, whereas according to physics the alleged solidity is seen to be an illusion, and whatever might turn out to be the ultimate nature of matter, it is certainly something very different from that which presents itself to our senses. However, when the physicist is off duty, he or she makes use of solid tables and chairs just like everyone else. In the same way, all such expressions as 'I', 'self' and so on are always in accordance with conventional truth, and the Buddha never hesitated to use the word attaa 'self' (and also with plural meaning: 'yourselves', etc.) in its conventional and convenient sense. In fact, despite all that has been urged to the contrary, there is not the slightest evidence that he ever used it in any other sense except when critically quoting the views of others, as should clearly emerge from several of the Suttas here translated. In point of fact, it should be stressed that conventional truth is sometimes extremely important. The whole doctrine of karma and rebirth has its validity only in the realm of conventional truth. That is why, by liberating ourselves from the view point of conventional truth we cease to be subject to karmic law. Objections to the idea of rebirth in Buddhism, too, are sometimes based on a misunderstanding of the nature of the two truths. As long as we are unenlightened 'worldlings', our minds habitually operate in terms of 'me' and 'mine', even if in theory we know better. It is not until this tendency has been completely eradicated that full enlilghtenment can dawn. At Samyutta Nikaaya 22.89 the Venerable Khemaka who is a Non-Returner, explains how 'the subtle remnant of the 'I'-conceit, or the 'I'-desire, an unextirpated lurking tendency to thin: 'I am', still persists even at that advanced stage." >>>snipped brief discussion and quotes of two books by Jayatilleke.>>> metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Howard, > > My quote came from 'The Long Discourses of the Buddha' A translation > of the Diigha Nikaaya by Maurice Walshe. The full DN 9.53 is "So > too, whenever the gross acquired self is present, we do not speak of > the mind-made or formless acquired self; whenever the mind-made > acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or formless > acquired self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do > not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, > we speak of the formless acquired self. But, Citta, these are merely > names, expressions, turns of speeh designations in common use inthe > world, which the Tathaagata uses without misapprehending them.' [n. > 224] > > Note 224: An improtant reference tot the two truths referred to in > DA as 'conventional speech' (sammuti-kathaa). See Introduction, p. > 31f. It is important to be aware of the level of truth at which any > statements are made. In MA (ad MN5: Anangana Sutta), the following > verse is quoted (source unknown): > 'Two truths the Buddha, best of all who speak, declared: > Conventional and ultimate - no third can be, > Terms agreed are true by usage of the world; > Words of ultimate significance are true > In terms of dhammas. Thus the Lord, a Teacher, > he > Who's skilled in this world's speech, can use it, and not lie.' > > I'll take a look at the introduction p. 31f and post it later if > relevant and not TOO long. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 30023 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Christine, I think you might find the book The Wings to Awakening An Anthology from the Pali Canon Translated and Explained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html useful. The idea "using self to get rid of/overcome the idea of self," reminds me of the discourse Anguttara Nikaya IV.235 Ariyamagga Sutta The Noble Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-235.html and Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's exposition in Part I: Basic Principles B. Kamma & the Ending of Kamma http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/1b.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello KenO and Howard, and all, > > This "using self to get rid of/overcome the idea of self" was > something I briefly tried to bring up in Bangkok. > People said they had heard of the expression, but moved on to other > things. There was a bit of a back log of questions. :-) Wouldn't it > be possible to start with the idea of a self who could meditate and > make states arise, and slowly move away from it. > It still feels pretty helpless not to have a method. Meditating is > so satisfying - one is DOING something. > > metta and peace, > Christine 30024 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Michael/Victor Hi Michael and Victor, ---------------- >> KenH: The big trap is to rewrite the Dhamma to make it the way we want it to be. Millions of people are doing this every day. >> > Michael: This is very true, but not just today. Be very careful when reading the commentaries, specially Budhaghosa commentaries. > ----------------- When you came to dsg, you honestly, and commendably, admitted you were an adherent of the Nagarjuna school of thought and your purpose here was to "sow seeds of doubt" (your exact words) amongst us Theravadins. That's fine, except your arguments have been logically met and yet you continue to state them as if they were uncontested fact. For example, you talk as if the accepted definition of sabhava is; `not subject to conditions.' You talk as if the Abhidhamma is `known to be' not the word of the Buddha. You have said it yourself, you have given your reasons and people have put the opposite case. Unless you can come up with further evidence, perhaps you should avoid throwing a spanner in the works every time there is a discussion of Abhidhamma. The same with the commentaries; like it or not, they are an accepted part of the original Theravada School of Buddhism. In this forum, I think the onus is on you to prove they are forgeries, not on others to prove they are genuine. Victor wrote: ----------------------- You might want to provide some textual reference to support your claim that according to the Dhamma, there is no self who can `try' anything – any contrived attempt at having right mindfulness would involve wrong view. ---------------------- I appreciate your posts whenever you come out and say `there is a self' and you give your reasons for saying so. I have also enjoyed answering your questions over the years; it is all good practice. Even more so, I have learnt from the answers others have given – especially all the references they have supplied proving - beyond reasonable doubt - that the Buddha believed there was no self. However, you seem to have acknowledged nothing; you continue to ask "What, no self? What a strange thing to say! Whatever gave you that idea?" (or words to that effect). I have run out enthusiasm for that particular line of questioning. Kind regards, Ken H 30025 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Christine - Thank you very much for the following. (BTW, I own the Walshe translation! ;-) Now we need to hear from some Pali aficionados to determine which translation is better. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/13/04 7:53:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > My quote came from 'The Long Discourses of the Buddha' A translation > of the Diigha Nikaaya by Maurice Walshe. The full DN 9.53 is "So > too, whenever the gross acquired self is present, we do not speak of > the mind-made or formless acquired self; whenever the mind-made > acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or formless > acquired self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do > not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, > we speak of the formless acquired self. But, Citta, these are merely > names, expressions, turns of speeh designations in common use inthe > world, which the Tathaagata uses without misapprehending them.' [n. > 224] > > Note 224: An improtant reference tot the two truths referred to in > DA as 'conventional speech' (sammuti-kathaa). See Introduction, p. > 31f. It is important to be aware of the level of truth at which any > statements are made. In MA (ad MN5: Anangana Sutta), the following > verse is quoted (source unknown): > 'Two truths the Buddha, best of all who speak, declared: > Conventional and ultimate - no third can be, > Terms agreed are true by usage of the world; > Words of ultimate significance are true > In terms of dhammas. Thus the Lord, a Teacher, > he > Who's skilled in this world's speech, can use it, and not lie.' > > I'll take a look at the introduction p. 31f and post it later if > relevant and not TOO long. > > metta and peace, > Christine /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30026 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/13/04 8:17:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Howard, and all, > > On p.31 in his Introduction, Walshe states: > "An important and often overlooked aspect of the Buddhist teaching > concerns the levels of truth, failure to appreciate ... > > ========================== This is very good. I particularly like the analogy made of the Buddha's distinction between ultimate and conventional language and the physicist's distinction between his technical language and his/her layperson language. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30027 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Ken H Hi Ken H, You might want to provide some reference on what I actually said and consider what you said in the following you continue to ask "What, no self? What a strange thing to say! Whatever gave you that idea?" (or words to that effect). truthful. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Michael and Victor, [snip] > Victor wrote: > ----------------------- > You might want to provide some textual reference to support your > claim that according to the Dhamma, there is no self who can `try' > anything – any contrived attempt at having right mindfulness would > involve wrong view. > ---------------------- > > I appreciate your posts whenever you come out and say `there is a > self' and you give your reasons for saying so. I have also enjoyed > answering your questions over the years; it is all good practice. > Even more so, I have learnt from the answers others have given – > especially all the references they have supplied proving - beyond > reasonable doubt - that the Buddha believed there was no self. > However, you seem to have acknowledged nothing; you continue to > ask "What, no self? What a strange thing to say! Whatever gave you > that idea?" (or words to that effect). I have run out enthusiasm > for that particular line of questioning. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 30028 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Christine, This idea of "using self to get rid of/overcome the idea of self," reminds me of the metaphor of using a thorn to remove a thorn. One example would be to use analysis to dispel the belief in a self. In this analogy both the "belief in self" and "analysis" are thorns. Another way of looking at this: In "Selfless Persons" Steven Collins writes: p.73 "The instrumental "attanaa" is often used to contrast what a man does 'by', 'in', or 'in relation to himself', with what he does to others, or advises others to do. It can be used to express the idea that a man achieves certain religious advances 'by his own efforts', and the idea that all men are 'in themselves', or 'inherently' subject to old age and death." L: He then gives this sutta as example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-052.html "Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire -- its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered -- would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." Larry 30029 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Ken H Hi Ken H, I just caught some mistakes in the previous message I wrote. So once again, Ken, you might want to provide some reference on what I actually said and consider whether what you said in the following you continue to ask "What, no self? What a strange thing to say! Whatever gave you that idea?" (or words to that effect). is truthful or not. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > You might want to provide some reference on what I actually said and > consider what you said in the following > > you continue to ask "What, no self? What a strange thing to say! > Whatever gave you that idea?" (or words to that effect). > > truthful. > > Metta, > Victor 30030 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Larry and Christine, Could you explain what you mean by "belief in self" or "idea or self"? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > This idea of "using self to get rid of/overcome the idea of self," > reminds me of the metaphor of using a thorn to remove a thorn. One > example would be to use analysis to dispel the belief in a self. In this > analogy both the "belief in self" and "analysis" are thorns. > > Another way of looking at this: In "Selfless Persons" Steven Collins > writes: p.73 "The instrumental "attanaa" is often used to contrast what > a man does 'by', 'in', or 'in relation to himself', with what he does to > others, or advises others to do. It can be used to express the idea that > a man achieves certain religious advances 'by his own efforts', and the > idea that all men are 'in themselves', or 'inherently' subject to old > age and death." > > L: He then gives this sutta as example: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-052.html > > "Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty > cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time > & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the > great mass of fire -- its original sustenance being consumed, and no > other being offered -- would, without nutriment, go out. In the same > way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, > craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of > clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the > cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the > cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & > death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is > the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." > > Larry 30031 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, Howard, I think that in order not to misrepresent what the Buddha said you might want to find a reference in which the Buddha actually said that he used concepts without being fooled by them. You said that: "One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but unless one is a child or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, one knows that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for that matter, any actual thing called "the sky". Could you explain what the point is? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 2/13/04 4:17:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > So, according to the Buddha, body-speech-mind volition is > > conditioned either by oneself or by others, until there is > > enlightenment and then there is no more conditioning. How can it be > > that volition is conditioned by `oneself' if there is no self? > ======================= > It's simply the convenient, standard mode of expression. The Buddha > said "I", "me", and "mine" all the time. But he also said that he used concepts > without being fooled by them. One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but > unless one is a child or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, > one knows that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for that > matter, any actual thing called "the sky". > > With metta, > Howard 30032 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:29pm Subject: Andy, Love lost Andy, My heart goes out to you. Your despair is large. You are suffering as a death. Andy, I have been a faithful lurker on DSG for several monthes now. I can tell you that this is the deep end of the pool as far as Buddhism is concerned. Not an easy place to begin your study of Buddhism. Here is a link to an ongoing self-study group that has recently begun. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BuddhismBeginners9/ This is a six month e-mail study that will give you a more overall picture of buddhism. Just sign in and start at the first(second?) lesson. Has buddhism helped me? Actually, it was deep sadness and overwhelming despair that led me to seek help. I found my help through the door of psycology. It saved my life. I did not start as a buddhist. The intense despair that drove me through many readings of "pop" psycology led me to buddhism. Buddhism is healthy psycology. I was about 20 at the beginning of the process and now I am 60. I am grateful to have traveled the road I am on. The learning begins at the difficult times of your life. It is the intensity of depression that can awake a seeker such as you self. Once started, there is no turning back. I can tell from your words that you are ready to begin the journey. Carl 30033 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36pm Subject: bodily intimation 2 Hi Larry and friends, bodily intimation 2: The intention expressed through bodily intimation is intelligible to others, not through the eye-door but through the mind-door. Knowing, for example, that someone waves is cognition through the mind-door and this cognition is conditioned by seeing-consciousness that experiences visible object or colour. The meaning of what has been intimated is known after reflection on it, thus it can only be cognized through the mind-door. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 61) defines intimation in a similar way and then states about its function, manifestation and proximate cause: ... Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of bodily excitement. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element. As to the proximate cause, as we have seen, the element of wind or air plays its specific role in the intimating of intention by bodily movement or gestures. We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. There is no person who communicates by gestures. Are we aware of nåma and rúpa when we gesticulate? Are there kusala cittas or akusala cittas at such moments? Most of the time there are akusala cittas, but we do not notice it. Do we realize which type of citta conditions the bodily intimation when we wave to someone else in order to greet him, when we gesticulate in order to tell him to come nearer, when we nod our head while we agree with something or shake it while we deny something? Such gestures are part of our daily routine and it seems that we make them automatically. Perhaps we never considered what types of citta condition them. Akusala citta conditions bodily intimation, for example, when we with mimics ridicule someone else or show our contempt for him. In such cases it is obvious that there is akusala citta. We should remember that bodily intimation is more often conditioned by akusala citta than by kusala citta. There may be subtle clinging that is not so obvious while we are expressing our intention by gestures. When there is mindfulness we can find out whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta. There may also be the performing of akusala kamma through bodily intimation, for example when someone gives by gesture orders to kill. There may be kusala cittas that condition bodily intimation when we, for example, stretch out our arms to welcome people to our home, when we stretch out our hand in order to give something, when we point out the way to someone who is in a strange city, when we by our gestures express courtesy or when we show respect to someone who deserves respect. However, there may also be selfish motives while we are doing so, or we may be insincere, and then there are akusala cittas that condition bodily intimation. More knowledge about citta and rúpas which are conditioned by citta can remind us to be aware of whatever reality appears, also while gesticulating. Then there is at such a moment no opportunity for akusala citta. ***** Nina. 30034 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: harsh speech among friends Dear Andrew and Ken H, > --- Andrew wrote: > To: > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >> Hi Sarah > You wrote: >>> Andrew - no need to go soft on your friend - I'm sure it would take >> a lot >>> more than your gentle and kindly meant ribbing to offend him;-) >> (Btw, I assured Nina that you were really the best of friends in real >>> life;-)) N: I had said that you, Andrew, seemed a bit harsh, saying that Ken surfed too much. I wanted to help Ken! Jonothan told me in Bgk that this was the way to show friendship among Aussies, being a bit rough. I had to laugh! But I learnt on this list that very kind-hearted people may have harsh speech:-)) I read about an arahat who used to abuse non brahmans in former lives, and when he became an arahat he continued such speech, but not with akusala citta, since he had eradicated all akusala. It was just a habit, called vasana, and only a Buddha can eradicate this. It teaches me a lesson. I sure will have no more misunderstandings in the future!!! I shall think of future arahats. Nina. 30035 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: harsh speech among friends Hi Nina and all, Isn't abusive, harsh speech wrong speech? Isn't it akusala? If it is wrong speech, how could an arahant still had it? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [snip] > I read about an arahat who used to abuse non brahmans in former lives, and > when he became an arahat he continued such speech, but not with akusala > citta, since he had eradicated all akusala. It was just a habit, called > vasana, and only a Buddha can eradicate this. It teaches me a lesson. I sure > will have no more misunderstandings in the future!!! I shall think of future > arahats. > Nina. 30036 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard and James In the context of this thread, I consulted the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta on AccesstoInsight. James wrote: How can it be > that volition is conditioned by `oneself' if there is no self? As I > have been explaining, that is because the Buddha didn't teach `there > is no self', he taught to not view anything as `self' in order to > attain liberation. A: James' view has some appeal, but is it right? I did the following little exercise with the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. The following is a quotation where I have deleted "mental fabrications" and inserted "volition". I have done this to bring it down to our specific topic: volition (cetana) is a mental fabrication (sankhara), is it not? So the substitution should hold true. Here goes: "Volition is not self. If volition were the self, this volition would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to volition 'Let my volition be thus. Let my volition not be thus.' But precisely because volition is not self, volition lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to volition 'Let my volition be thus. Let my volition not be thus.'" So: 1. regarding "no control", is not the Buddha here stating that it is not possible to control or direct volition? 2. if there is NOTHING in any of the Buddha's extensive listing of phenomena of which it may be said "this is mine; this is my self; this is what I am", can we really argue (as does James, for example) that "the Buddha didn't teach there is no self"? 3. since everyone is asking for references, I might too. Where is the reference for the Buddha stating either that (a) there IS a self that is not just a conventional designation; or (b) whether there is a self or not is an imponderable question? Hmmm. Best wishes Andrew 30037 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: harsh speech among friends Hello Nina Thank you for sharing this fascinating piece of information. Yes, I was giving KenH what we Aussies call "a friendly dig" (forgetting that there were foreigners on the list!). I suspect that friendly digs are in most cases akusala, so I have jokingly told KenH that I will direct my cetana not to do it again! He understands. > N: I had said that you, Andrew, seemed a bit harsh, saying that Ken surfed > too much. I wanted to help Ken! Jonothan told me in Bgk that this was the > way to show friendship among Aussies, being a bit rough. I had to laugh! But > I learnt on this list that very kind-hearted people may have harsh > speech:-)) > I read about an arahat who used to abuse non brahmans in former lives, and > when he became an arahat he continued such speech, but not with akusala > citta, since he had eradicated all akusala. It was just a habit, called > vasana, and only a Buddha can eradicate this. It teaches me a lesson. I sure > will have no more misunderstandings in the future!!! I shall think of future > arahats. This is a testament to the power of habits, isn't it. In my case, harsh speech is definitely to be avoided. With best wishes Andrew 30038 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: bodily intimation, 1 Dear Nina, so glad you are back, I read only this: Nina: "Citta is one of the four factors that produces rúpa." Carl: Is rupa produced? I think this is my understanding: Question: Is anything really real? Answer: Yes! Question: Yes but, is anything really really really real? Answer: Well, not really! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and friends, > I came back from Bgk about an hour ago. > I post a few sections of my Rupas, as an introduction to this subject we > shall study now in the Vis., namely: bodily intimation and verbal > intimation. > > Intimation through Body and Speech > > Citta is one of the four factors that produces rúpa. We look different when > we laugh, when we cry, when we are angry or when we are generous. Then we > can notice that citta produces rúpa. > Bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) and speech intimation (vacíviññatti) are > two kinds of rúpa, originated by citta. They are not produced by the other > three factors that can produce rúpa, by kamma, temperature or nutrition. > As to bodily intimation, this is movement of the body, of the limbs, facial > movement or gestures which display our intentions, be they wholesome or > unwholesome. The intention expressed through bodily intimation can be > understood by others, even by animals. Bodily intimation itself is rúpa, it > does not know anything. We read in the ³Dhammasangani² (§ 636): > > What is that rúpa which is bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti)? > That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, in > response to a thought, whether good or bad, or indeterminate (kiriyacitta), > on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or glances > around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth - the intimation, the > making known, the state of having made known - this is that rúpa which > constitutes bodily intimation. > > According to the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Book I, Part III, 82, 83), in the case of > bodily intimation citta produces the ³eight inseparable rúpas² 1 and among > them the element of air (wind, oscillation or motion) plays its specific > part in supporting the body and strengthen the postures. We read: > > ... But there is a certain peculiar, unique mode of change in the primaries > (four Great Elements) when set up by mind, through which, as a condition, > mobility (the element of wind or motion) is able to strengthen, support and > agitate the coexistent body. This is intimation. ... Because it is a > capacity of communicating, it is called ³intimation². What does it > communicate? A certain wish communicable by an act of the body. If anyone > stands in the path of the eye, raises his hands or feet, shakes his head or > brow, the movement of his hands, etc. are visible. Intimation, however, is > not so visible; it is only knowable by the mind. For one sees by the eye a > colour-surface moving by virtue of the change of position in hands, etc. 2. > But by reflecting on it as intimation, one knows it by > mind-door-consciousness, thus: ³I imagine that this man wishes me to do this > or that act.²... > (to be continued) 30039 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Victor, Belief in self is this: sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.): (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations or consciousness; (6-10) to be contained in them; (11-15) to be independent of them; (16-20) to be the owner of them (M. 44; S. XXII. 1). See prec., ditthi, upádána 4. L: It comes from this: tanhá: (lit. 'thirst'): 'craving', is the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths. "What, o monks, is the origin of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to ever-fresh rebirth and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (káma-tanhá), the craving for existence (bhava-tanhá), the craving for non-existence (vibhava-tanhá)'' (D. 22). T. is the 8th link in the formula of the dependent origination (paticcasamuppáda, q.v.). Cf. sacca. Corresponding to the 6 sense-objects, there are 6 kinds of craving craving for visible objects, for sounds, odours, tastes, bodily impressions, mental impressions (rúpa-, sadda-, gandha-, rasa-, photthabba-, dhamma-tanhá). (M. 9; D. 15) Corresponding to the 3-fold existence, there are 3 kinds: craving for sensual existence (káma-tanhá), for fine-material existence (rúpa-tanhá), for immaterial existence (arúpa-tanhá). (D. 33) There are 18 'thought-channels of craving' (tanhá-vicarita) induced internally, and 18 induced externally; and as occurring in past, present and future, they total 108; see A. IV, 199; Vibh., Ch. 17 (Khuddakavatthu-Vibhanga). According to the dependent origination, craving is conditioned by feeling; on this see D. 22 (section on the 2nd Truth). Of craving for existence (bhava-tanhá ) it is said (A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply." - Craving for existence and ignorance are called "the outstanding causes that lead to happy and unhappy destinies (courses of existence)" (s. Vis.M. XVII, 36-42). The most frequent synonyms of tanhá are rága (q.v.) and lobha (s. múla). http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 30040 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: SNI,4,19(9) "The Farmer" The title is striking "The Farmer" and then it seems to me a description of where mara can be found (grown as a crop) follows. No where else but in the senses. Mara is not to be found outside of the senses. As quoted from below: "The eye is yours, Evil One, forms are yours, eye-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no eye, no forms, no eye-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. (297)"............ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > At Savatthi. Now on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, > exhorting, inspiring, and gladdening the bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk > concerning Nibbana. And those bhikkhus were listening to the Dhamma > with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, > applying their whole minds to it. > > Then it occurred to Mara the Evil One: "This ascetic Gotama is > instructing, exhorting, inspiring, and gladdening the bhikkhus…who > are applying their whole minds to it. Let me approach the ascetic > Gotama in order to confound them." Then Mara the Evil One manifested > himself in the form of a farmer, carrying a large plough on his > shoulder, holding a long goad stick, his hair disheveled, wearing > hempen garments, his feet smeared with mud. He approached the > Blessed One and said to him: "Maybe you've seen oxen, ascetic?" > > "What are oxen to you, Evil One?" > > "The eye is mine, ascetic, forms are mine, eye-contact and its base > of consciousness are mine. (296) Where can you go, ascetic, to escape > from me? The ear is mine, ascetic, sounds are mine…The nose is mine, > ascetic, odours are mine…The tongue is mine, ascetic, tastes are mine… > The body is mine, ascetic, tactile objects are mine…The mind is mine, > ascetic, mental phenomena are mine, mind-contact and its base of > consciousness are mine. Where can you go, ascetic, to escape from > me?" > > "The eye is yours, Evil One, forms are yours, eye-contact and its > base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no > eye, no forms, no eye-contact and its base of consciousness—there is > no place for you there, Evil One. (297) The ear is yours, Evil One, > sounds are yours, ear-contact and its base of consciousness are > yours; but, Evil One, where there is no ear, no sounds, no ear- > contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you > there, Evil One. The nose is yours, Evil One, odours are yours, nose- > contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where > there is no nose, no odours, no nose-contact and its base of > consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. The tongue > is yours, Evil One, tastes are yours, tongue-contact and its base of > consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no tongue, no > tastes, no tongue-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no > place for you there, Evil One. The body is yours, Evil One, tactile > objects are yours, body-contact and its base of consciousness are > yours; but, Evil One, where there is no body, no tactile objects, no > body contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you > there, Evil One. The mind is yours, Evil One, mental phenomena are > yours, mind-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, > Evil One, where there is no mind, no mental phenomena, no mind- > contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you > there, Evil One." > > [Mara:] > "That of which they say `It's mine,' > And those who speak in terms of `mine'— > If your mind exists among these, > You won't escape me, ascetic." > > [The Blessed One:] > "That which they speak of is not mine, > I'm not on of those who speak [of mine]. > You should know thus, O Evil One: > Even my path you will not see." > > Then Mara the Evil One…disappeared right there. > > Note 296: I follow Spk, which resolves cakkhusamphassavinnanayatana > thus: cakkhuvinnanena sampayutto cakkhusamphasso pi vinnanayatanam > pi; "eye-contact associated with eye-consciousness and also the base > of consciousness." Spk says that "eye-contact" implies all the mental > phenomena associated with consciousness; "the base of consciousness," > all types of consciousness that have arisen in the eye door beginning > with the adverting consciousness (avajjanacitta). The same method > applies to the ear door, etc. But in the mind door, "mind" (mano) is > the bhavangacitta together with adverting; "mental phenomena" are the > mental objects (arammanadhamma); "mind-contact," the contact > associated with bhavanga and adverting; and "the base of > consciousness," the javanacitta and tadarammanacitta, i.e., > the "impulsion" and "registration" consciousness. For an account of > the types of consciousness (fundamental to Pali Abhidhamma), see CMA > 3:8. > Mara's reply, and the Buddha's rejoinder, hinge on the practice of > using Pali words for cattle metaphorically to signify the sense > faculties. See GD, pp. 141-42, n. to 26-27. > > Note 297: Here the Buddha is obviously referring to Nibbana. Cp. > 35:117 on the cessation of the six sense bases. 30041 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:17pm Subject: Buddhism James: Thanks a lot for your answer to my questions. If I have any more questions, I would e-mail you about it. Anyway, have you got anthing else you want to tell me regarding Buddhism? Philip Chui 30042 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > I had a cursory look at the Kathavatthu during my stay at the BCBS last > weekend and have decided to buy it. I have already ordered from > Paryiatti. I > have also ordered the Commentary. I will write again after I read it > properly. ..... Excellent! Perhaps we can have a "Kathavatthu & comy Study Corner" and do them justice! If anyone else is interested to join in, these texts are available from the PTS or Pariyatti (see DSG bookmark links). Kathaavatthu transl as 'Points of Controversy' by Shwe Zan Aung & Mrs Rhys Davids Kathaavatthuppakara.na-A.t.thakathaa as 'The Debates Commentary' by Bimala Churn Law Any DSG posters will feel very at home with these texts;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 30043 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > I don’t agree that the Tipitaka deals with ultimate realities, this > places > conditionality in the background while it should be at the forefront. > Conditionality is the key teaching of the Buddha. ..... S: I think we need to discuss this area in some depth. How about you start by explaining why you think that ultimate dhammas (aka paramattha dhammas or namas and rupas or khandhas or ayatanas or dhatus) 'places conditionality in the background'. ..... M: > In my cursory look at the Kathavatthu I have found nothing that > justifies > your argument that paramattha are ‘real and ultimate facts.’ In one of > your > messages containing extracts from the Kathavatthu it reads > “‘Ultimate’(paramattho): highest sense, not taken from tradition, or > hearsay,” highest sense has to do with language which is very different > from > facts which has to do with ontology. .... S: On the contrary, 'highest sense' is beyond language, i.e 'not taken from tradition, or hearsay'. It means that regardless of anything said or known about them, paramattha dhammas are still 'ultimates' or 'realities' as shown to us by the Buddha. ..... M: >Karunadasa also does support your > view > when he says “the early Buddhist idea of sammuti is not based on a > formulated doctrine of real existents. Although what is analysed is > called > sammuti, that into which it is analysed is not called paramattha. Such > a > development is found only in the Abhidhamma.” .... S: I'm rushing now - I'll come back to this later when I have a chance to look at it. I'd think he's indicating that the use of the word 'paramattha' is only used in the Abh and coms. Also see Christine's and Howard's discussion on sammuti sacca (conventional truth) and pls add anything further on it if you wish. .... M: > In relation to your last statement that “theravadins admit that the > khandhas > or dhammas are known in a real and ultimate sense” I have a suspicion > this > comes from the commentary. And the commentary to the Kathavatthu was > compiled by Buddhaghosa. I would be quite suspicious of that. .... S: This was Karunadasa's comment about the Kathavatthu itself as indicated by his reference as I recall. .... M: >But > anyway, I > will leave my final judgment out until I read the Kathavatthu. .... S: I'll be particularly glad to discuss it with you based on what it and the comy say, rather than what others say it says;-) .... > Michael: > I am sure it will be fascinating. Maybe you can also be open minded and > read > Kalupahana or even better, read the Mulamadyamakakarika by Nagarjuna. ..... S: Certainly if I decide to join and post on a list which describes itself as discussing the Buddha's teachings according to Nagarjuna, I will endeavour to read the Mulamadyamakakarika before criticising it as wrong on hearsay;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30044 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:00pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Andrew, Hope you don't mind me jumping into your discussion with Howard and James. My respond to your questions are as following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Howard and James [snip] > 1. regarding "no control", is not the Buddha here stating that it is > not possible to control or direct volition? This is how I understand it: The "control" relation needs to be clarified: namely, it is impossible for whom or what to control volition? Given the context in the discourse, it is impossible for volition to control itself because volition lends itself to dis-ease. Volition lends itself to dis-ease precicely because volition is not self. It is impossible for volition to control itself in the sense that it is impossible for volition to make itself permanent and not dukkha as volition lends itself to dis-ease. On the other hand, it is entirely possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, and mind. It is entirely possible for one not to do what is unskillful and do what is skillful. In that sense, it is possible for one to control bodily actions, verbal actions, and mental actions, not to make actions permanent, not dukkha, self, but to make them skillful such that they will lead to the cessation of actions. That is how I see it. > 2. if there is NOTHING in any of the Buddha's extensive listing of > phenomena of which it may be said "this is mine; this is my self; > this is what I am", can we really argue (as does James, for example) > that "the Buddha didn't teach there is no self"? Can we really argue that the Buddha did teach that there is no self? When one claimed that the Buddha did teach that there is no self or, for that matter, there is self, the burden of finding a reference to support such claim is on the one who made the claim. If one claimed as such, it is best if he or she could come up with a textual reference to support such claim in order to avoid the risk of misrepresenting the Buddha teaching. As far as I can see in the discourses, I have not found any passage in which the Buddha taught that there is no self or there is self. I see that both "there is no self" and "there is self" as metaphysical assertions: they have nothing to do with the Dhamma that the Buddha taught and are to be abandoned. > 3. since everyone is asking for references, I might too. Where is > the reference for the Buddha stating either that > (a) there IS a self that is not just a conventional designation; or Please see above. > (b) whether there is a self or not is an imponderable question? Not sure if anyone claimed that whether there is a self or not is an imponderable question. On the other hand, I see the question "Is there a self or not?" not so much an imponderable question. I see it as a question that leads to speculation and proliferation in thoughts not connected to the Buddha's teaching. > Best wishes > Andrew Metta, Victor 30045 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Larry, Do you mean it is the self-identity view with which one regards something as "This is mine. This I am. This is my self."? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Belief in self is this: > > sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters > (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of > Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). There are 20 kinds > of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that > belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.): (1-5) the > belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, mental > formations or consciousness; (6-10) to be contained in them; (11- 15) to > be independent of them; (16-20) to be the owner of them (M. 44; S. XXII. > 1). See prec., ditthi, upádána 4. > > L: It comes from this: > > tanhá: (lit. 'thirst'): 'craving', is the chief root of suffering, and > of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths. "What, o monks, is the origin > of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to ever-fresh rebirth > and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever > fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (káma-tanhá), the craving > for existence (bhava-tanhá), the craving for non-existence > (vibhava-tanhá)'' (D. 22). T. is the 8th link in the formula of the > dependent origination (paticcasamuppáda, q.v.). Cf. sacca. > Corresponding to the 6 sense-objects, there are 6 kinds of craving > craving for visible objects, for sounds, odours, tastes, bodily > impressions, mental impressions (rúpa-, sadda-, gandha-, rasa-, > photthabba-, dhamma-tanhá). (M. 9; D. 15) > Corresponding to the 3-fold existence, there are 3 kinds: craving for > sensual existence (káma-tanhá), for fine-material existence > (rúpa-tanhá), for immaterial existence (arúpa-tanhá). (D. 33) > There are 18 'thought-channels of craving' (tanhá-vicarita) induced > internally, and 18 induced externally; and as occurring in past, present > and future, they total 108; see A. IV, 199; Vibh., Ch. 17 > (Khuddakavatthu-Vibhanga). > According to the dependent origination, craving is conditioned by > feeling; on this see D. 22 (section on the 2nd Truth). > Of craving for existence (bhava-tanhá ) it is said (A. X, 62): "No > first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, > before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he > perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, > o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it > (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has > to reply." - Craving for existence and ignorance are called "the > outstanding causes that lead to happy and unhappy destinies (courses of > existence)" (s. Vis.M. XVII, 36-42). > The most frequent synonyms of tanhá are rága (q.v.) and lobha (s. > múla). http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > > Larry 30046 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, Howard: I suspect that our positions differ here, but are not diametrically opposed. James: Yea, I guess so. It seems to me that you describe your position a little differently each time. Perhaps we hold very similar positions but differ in our emphasis. Of course I don't believe that samsara is the complete picture (something fueled by ignorance is by design not complete) but I choose to describe my position differently in this group because many members hold the belief that paramattha dhammas are the only things that are real, ontologically, and everything else isn't. In a different group I would probably posit a different emphasis. Metta, James 30047 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Andrew, Andrew: James, am I correct in thinking that your view says that there IS a self but we should not cling to it in order to attain liberation? James: NO, NO, NO, NO!! Goodness gracious, that isn't my position! ;- )) My position is what the Buddha taught. The Buddha didn't teach that there is no self and he didn't teach that there is a self. Both of these are metaphysical positions and they do no lead to liberation or insight. I don't say that there isn't a self or that there is a self. What difference does it make? The only thing I know is that taking anything as self, be that anything: body, mind, feelings, consciousness, bank account, employment, relationships, age, car, clothes, etc., will lead to suffering. Let me tell you a little story (which Howard will enjoy I'm sure). I belonged to another Internet group and I got into an argument with the members of that group over this same issue (but this group is much more polite than that group ;-)). Anyway, a bhikkhu wrote me a post that asked just one question "How do you practice anatta in your life?" To be a little ornery (I admit) but to also tell him the truth, I replied "I mind my own business." (Got in trouble for that but, oh well ;-) What did I mean? I meant that I don't go around telling people that they don't have a self or that what they take for self isn't self. That isn't what Buddhism is about. I focus only on what I take for self and try to eliminate my desire and attachment to it. Andrew: Why don't you find any satisfaction in the view that "self" is a conventional designation/reality (like "chariot") that is impermanent and only exists through a process of derivation? James: I just don't like that metaphor of people being like a `chariot' composed of parts; I think it is overly simplistic. For example, if the wheels are removed from a chariot is it still a chariot? Of course. It is just a chariot without wheels. What about the axel, or the reins, or the harness, what if each of those things are removed, is is still a chariot? Yes, it is a chariot that is missing certain parts but it is still a chariot. Are people the same way? Can you remove any of the five khandas and still have a person? I don't think so. What about if you remove consciousness? Well, then you have a dead person who will be worm meat within a day or two. So you see, I just think that it is an inadequate metaphor and shouldn't be taken literally. Andrew: Isn't any other view either sitting on the fence or Hinduism? James: Well, I am not a Hindu because I don't believe in atman or soul. But, I know it is frustrating when someone sits on the fence and then you begin to wonder if they are just trying to be clever and really have no clue about what their position is. Okay, if you want to know my position: I don't think that there is no self and I don't think that there is self, I only think that there exists a `sense of self' which is fueled by ignorance and creates suffering and all of samsara. I think that you want some kind of `standard' ontological position but, believe it or not, this is an ontological position. Andrew: Sorry, mate, but I think you bear the onus of proof on this one (and it is one of the "biggies" in Buddhism) and you haven't got my vote yet. LOL! James: Hehehe…that's okay. I'm not looking for votes. Metta, James 30048 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Andrew, This is an interesting mental exercise, and demonstrates that you are a deep thinker I believe, but it is a dangerous precedent to start rewriting suttas to prove a particular point. (Then I would have to start referring to you as `Buddhaghosa' LOL!). I gave you the sutta where the Buddha described volition. Only suttas where he described volition specifically should be considered. Not all of the terms are interchangeable, I don't think. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Howard and James > > In the context of this thread, I consulted the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta > on AccesstoInsight. 30049 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 0:33am Subject: Re: SNI,4,19(9) "The Farmer" Hi Carl, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > The title is striking "The Farmer" and then it seems to me a > description of where mara can be found (grown as a crop) follows. > No where else but in the senses. Mara is not to be found outside of > the senses. Very interesting perspective! I didn't consider that. I will have to ponder this viewpoint more. Thanks, you have added more depth of meaning to this sutta for me. Metta, James 30050 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hello Victor and James Thank you both for your posts. Please jump in anytime, Victor. Your insight is always appreciated. I think I can see where you are both coming from - and I don't mean to imply that your positions are identical. Victor wrote: > The "control" relation needs to be clarified: namely, it is > impossible for whom or what to control volition? Given the context > in the discourse, it is impossible for volition to control itself > because volition lends itself to dis-ease. Volition lends itself to > dis-ease precicely because volition is not self. > > It is impossible for volition to control itself in the sense that it > is impossible for volition to make itself permanent and not dukkha > as volition lends itself to dis-ease. Andrew: My reading of these sutta lines is that "self-belief" is incompatible with conditionality and impermanence. If there were a "self", there would be something permanent that could manipulate conditions from one moment to the next. I suspect you and James are relying upon the use of "not self" in the sutta rather than "no self". But surely this is entirely consistent with the conventional/ultimate reality distinction? "Self" is not an ultimate reality, but it is a conventional reality - and a Noble One does not misapprehend "self" [as being ultimately real] nor cling to it. Do you agree with that last sentence? Victor: As far as I can see in the discourses, I have not found any passage > in which the Buddha taught that there is no self or there is self. > I see that both "there is no self" and "there is self" as > metaphysical assertions: they have nothing to do with the Dhamma > that the Buddha taught and are to be abandoned. Andrew: Do you find it perplexing that Buddha did not deal with anatta in the same manner in which he dismissed other metaphysical assertions? Why didn't he just come out with it and say "Look, these questions 'is there self' and 'is there no self' are irrelevant to my Dhamma and are to be abandoned." Victor: Not sure if anyone claimed that whether there is a self or not is an > imponderable question. > > On the other hand, I see the question "Is there a self or not?" not > so much an imponderable question. I see it as a question that leads > to speculation and proliferation in thoughts not connected to the > Buddha's teaching. Andrew: That seems to fit Nyanatiloka's definition of "acinteyya" (p.5) - which leads me to repeat my question: why didn't the Buddha say that "self" or "no self" was an unthinkable? It would have been easy for him to have made that point. Why didn't he? Best wishes Andrew 30051 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: Andy, Love lost Dear Carl > Andy, My heart goes out to you. Your despair is large. You are > suffering as a death. > Andy, I have been a faithful lurker on DSG for several monthes now. > I can tell you that this is the deep end of the pool as far as > Buddhism is concerned. Not an easy place to begin your study of > Buddhism. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I could suggest a good plunge on Dhammasangani... ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Has buddhism helped me? Actually, it was deep sadness and > overwhelming despair that led me to seek help. I found my help > through the door of psycology. It saved my life. I did not start as > a buddhist. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ...Or a reading out at the Patthanapali. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The intense despair that drove me through many readings > of "pop" psycology led me to buddhism. Buddhism is healthy > psycology. I was about 20 at the beginning of the process and now I > am 60. I am grateful to have traveled the road I am on. > > The learning begins at the difficult times of your life. It is the > intensity of depression that can awake a seeker such as you self. > Once started, there is no turning back. I can tell from your words > that you are ready to begin the journey. Carl -------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there necessary so many efforts only to get rid of akusala patterns ? Mettaya, Ícaro 30052 From: Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control In a message dated 2/13/04 7:22:26 PM Central Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: The idea "using self to get rid of/overcome the idea of self," reminds me of the discourse all, I have heard this expressed as, "using a thorn to remove a thorn stuck in our skin. Then when it removed, throw both thorns away." jack 30053 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Victor > While it is impossible for one to make bodily actions, verbal > actions, and mental actions permanent, not dukkha, oneself, it is > entirely possible for one to do what is skillful/wholesome/kusala > and refrain from what is unskillful/unwholesome/akusala in body, > speech, and mind. In that sense, I said that it is entirely > possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, and mind. In > that sense, it is entirely possible for one to restrain and control > his body actions, verbal actions, and mental actions, not to make > them permanent, not dukkha, self, but to abandon what is unskillful > and develop what is skillful. k: I dont get you. In your first statement you said <>, then in the above you said, <>. In my opinion it is a contradiction, could you explain this please. k: I think I have to say even though there is anatta, there is still salvation. When Buddha say control, what does he meant. He does not meant controlling of what conventional thinking of "controlling", he is saying that one that is mindful, of wise consideration, or in simple terms satipatthana. I dont think you will buy that :-) rgds Ken O 30054 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: SNI,4,19(9) "The Farmer" Dear Carl > The title is striking "The Farmer" and then it seems to me a > description of where mara can be found (grown as a crop) follows. > No where else but in the senses. Mara is not to be found outside of > the senses. ------------------------------------------------------------------ That´s a commonplace at Comparative Beliefs´ issues. At "Dhaniya Sutta" (Sutta Niipata) we get a very impressive description of Mara as a being(?) that is even worse than a Yakka: not only refuses help to the poor Dhaniya as even bolsters his power and "grandeur" at this harsh hour. Buddha only reflects the own words of Dhaniya, smiling as usual... Mettaya, Ícaro bases. 30055 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Dear Andrew and a Noble One > does not misapprehend "self" [as being ultimately real] nor cling to > it. Do you agree with that last sentence? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in, Andrew... Self is not a conventional or ultimate reality or whatever: it´s a wrong point of view. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > didn't he just come out with it and say "Look, these questions 'is > there self' and 'is there no self' are irrelevant to my Dhamma and > are to be abandoned." --------------------------------------------------------------------- No, he didn´t say it at this way or whatever. Buddha states clearly that the "Self" is a misconception and a false idea itself, and that must to be abandoned at once. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Andrew: > That seems to fit Nyanatiloka's definition of "acinteyya" (p.5) - > which leads me to repeat my question: why didn't the Buddha say > that "self" or "no self" was an unthinkable? It would have been easy > for him to have made that point. Why didn't he? --------------------------------------------------------------------- This point of doctrine is fully explained in all buddhistic canon: Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta are de main pillars of all Buddhism. Mettaya, Ícaro > Best wishes > Andrew 30056 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:13am Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, > post in context. At the end I will copy material given in two suttas in the > Anguttara Nikaya which I sent to DSG (to Jon) a couple years ago, and which > indicate the importance of concentration. I couldn't make out these two Suttas from your post. And I mistakenly associated the Anupada Sutta with Anguttara Nikaya and this is why I couldn't find it in ATI yesterday. Anyway, I vaguely remember once reading that Sutta elsewhere and the impression I had then. I will go by those impressions and if I am mistaken I hope you won't mind and will correct me. Comments are between yours. > > There seem to be an implicit belief that a mind well concentrated is > > in a better position to penetrate the nature of the rising and > > falling phenomena. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Perhaps that is due to the Buddha having > explicity stated such. > ----------------------------------------------- Sukin: I won't ask for references because it will require that we then go through the process of analyzing Suttas, which I am not good at. I talked about my understanding of Right and Wrong concentration in my post to James. What do you think of it? I do not deny that concentration is a necessary part of the Eightfold Path and I also do not deny that during Magga citta, the concentration is of the intensity of Jhana. However, as everything else in the Tipitaka, I think understanding of what the Buddha means when he says to the effect "Right concentration is necessary" hinges upon how we understand such statements to be. Is it descriptive or is it a "thing to do"? > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: Yep, no such name. But the Buddha taught the cultivation of concentration and calm throughout his life, and he didn't spend 45 years only repeating the content of the Satipatthana Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------- Sukin: I wonder what James meant when he made a similar statement in his post to me. I know that the Buddha taught many aspects of Dhamma and from many perspectives, and this is why I think it is useful to study the texts as much as possible just to gain greater and greater familiarity with dhammas. But Satipatthana is the *only* way, do you agree? If so, what could be more important at any given moment? I am not discounting the importance of other kinds of kusala, one cannot force satipatthana. But is there any citta which wears away ignorance other than a moment of satipatthana? Would the Buddha give priority to anything else? > > Jhana is very high degree of kusala and requires a corresponding > > degree of panna, but does it have any direct connection with > > vipassana panna? No! > > The objects are very different. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > First of all, that isn't the point. > Mastering the jhanas is a matter of cultivating the mind. Secondly, the jhanas > have been prominent as a base for investigation of dhammas. In particular, seethe > Anupada Sutta which shows how the jhanas were vehicles for Sariputta's > liberation. And consider how the 4th jhana was used by the Buddha himself as base for investigation of dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Sukin: `Cultivating the mind', for what? You know that Jhana can at best lead to the very fine mental states of the Brahmas. As a base for vipassana? I agree that those liberated by Jhana are superior to those who are not. But are you thinking that it is easier? Perhaps, for those to whom it is a natural thing, being already very developed in this regard. But isn't it taking the extremely longer route for those who aren't? The reason why I said that those who entertain such a view will get nowhere, is because the aim is enlightenment, but the practice is not in accord with the goal. If one understands the significance of Satipatthana, he will not think beyond this moment in terms of practice! > Is jhana then being practiced as a `tool' or is it being practiced > > as a `support factor'? > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > A tool for cultivating the mind, and as > base for investigation of dhammas. > ------------------------------------------------ Sukin: A `base for investigation of dhammas'? Would this faculty be inherent in Jhana cittas or is it more likely the panna which understands realities as they are? > With metta, > Howard Metta, Sukin. 30057 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:14am Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi James, > James: My reply is also. If you respond, please don't respond in a > manner to proliferate any of the issues I have raised in this post. > Try to narrow and focus. Sukin: Whew!! Many thanks James. It is quite exhausting for me too. :-) So I will focus on just one point in this post. > Sukin: I think you will agree that only Satipatthana leads to the > goal. > > James: Why would you think that? I haven't been brainwashed by K. > Sujin (not yet anyway…knock on wood! ;-)). There are A LOT more > suttas than the Satipatthana Sutta; Buddhism isn't as simplistic as > you are implying. Sukin: Are you talking about other paths or are you talking about other perspective of the same thing? I think you have read many times here, that the whole Tipitaka is about the development of satipatthana. I feel inclined to agree with this. Do you object to the idea that it is understanding of the present arising dhamma which constitute the development of wisdom? I may have the habit of being simplistic, and this is to be expected due to the accumulated ignorance and wrong view. However as Ivan a friend, often says, "Dhamma is really simple, but *hard* to see", I grow also more and more appreciative of this comment of his. After all, what is there but the present moment to be known and understood? The Buddha's teachings all point to this. It is our lack of accumulated panna which causes us to complicate matters, proliferating and indulging in well sounding theories. It is this very same lack of wisdom which leads us to not appreciate that the teachings on conditionality is about *now*. Not realizing this, we insist on the *word*. And this word can either make us complacent or otherwise be overly critical. The concept of `Emptiness' by Nagarjuna is one example of the latter. If the practice is right then there is no doubt, and I don't think one will see discrepancies where there are none. In a hurry to go, so I will end here. Metta, Sukin. 30058 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:15am Subject: A HAPPY VALENTINE´S DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Roses are red Violets are ble..." But many people may prefer something more hot and vivid as "Benny the Bouncer" "Benny was a bouncer at the Palais de Dance He could slash your granny´s face without give her a chance He thought he was the meanest untill he met Savage Syd! Now Benny will show to Syd his nasty roots He poured a pint of Guiness at Syd boots Benny looked at Syd Syd looked back to Benny Benny took his switchblade And Syd his 'Cold Meat Pie' - O What a terrible sight! - Much of people´s delight! - One Hell of fight!" (And the Honky Tonk continues to being played on!!!) A Happy Valentine´s Day for all DSG !!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30059 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:27am Subject: What is the World ? Friends; What is this Appearance of the World ? The world is that by which one Perceives the world! The world is that by which one Conceives the world! This is the so-called 'World' in the Noble One's teaching. By what, do one perceive & conceive the world ? By the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & by the mind do one perceive & conceive the world ... This is the 'World' in the Noble One's teaching. Samyutta Nikaya IV [95] ____________________________________________________ World as 'Experience of world' World as 'Artificial construction' World as 'Internal representation' World as 'Terror of changing noise' It is (thus) within this fathom long frame of body endowed with conscious experience, senses & mind, that the world can be found! Here it is originated, unfolded & manifested & here it also ends .. Consequently is also here the method to end this world is found! The Wise, knowing the world to be thus, therefore ends the world, by fulfilling the Noble Life. In the Peace of having ended this world, all calmed, all stilled, he do not Long for this or any other World! Samyutta Nikaya I [62] ____________________________________________________ Comments: Radical Empiricism: If one would postulate a World - 'out there' - completely independent of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind, not relying on any seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or thinking and thus as if invisible, silent, smell & tasteless, intangible & unconceivable, such world would indeed be utterly groundless, lacking any reference & wholly unverifiable. Such world - stable or changing - would be an irrelevant metaphysical construction: - a Castle in the Air! - We 'make up' the world by experiencing it! The world is thus not an external substance or entity, but an internal representation... an ideation... A mentally constructed & mind created neural 'film' or 'recording' of an external condition of which our only witness & knowledge is this 'recorded film' itself... What is behind this curtain of perception or what was 'filmed' cannot ever be known nor communicated... Nibbana may be likened to the blissful peace in the dark cinema after the film have ended & all others have rushed out in the streets, driven by the urge for new experience ... The interesting is not this boring, monotonous & repetitious Film itself, but the salient End of it ... To realize that fully takes incalculable aeons ... : - ] - The End - All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30060 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: What is the World ? Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, Could you please explain what you meant by perceive and conceive in your post in connection with eye, ear, etc etc? Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends; > What is this Appearance of the World ? > The world is that by which one Perceives the world! > The world is that by which one Conceives the world! > This is the so-called 'World' in the Noble One's teaching. > > By what, do one perceive & conceive the world ? > By the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & by the mind > do one perceive & conceive the world ... > This is the 'World' in the Noble One's teaching. > > Samyutta Nikaya IV [95] > ____________________________________________________ > > > World as 'Experience of world' > World as 'Artificial construction' > World as 'Internal representation' > World as 'Terror of changing noise' > It is (thus) within this fathom long frame of body endowed with > conscious experience, senses & mind, that the world can be found! > Here it is originated, unfolded & manifested & here it also ends .. > Consequently is also here the method to end this world is found! > > The Wise, knowing the world to be thus, therefore ends the world, > by fulfilling the Noble Life. In the Peace of having ended this world, > all calmed, all stilled, he do not Long for this or any other World! > Samyutta Nikaya I [62] > > ____________________________________________________ > > Comments: > > > Radical Empiricism: > > If one would postulate a World - 'out there' - completely > independent of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind, > not relying on any seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > touching or thinking and thus as if invisible, silent, smell & > tasteless, intangible & unconceivable, such world would > indeed be utterly groundless, lacking any reference & wholly > unverifiable. Such world - stable or changing - would be an > irrelevant metaphysical construction: - a Castle in the Air! - > > We 'make up' the world by experiencing it! > The world is thus not an external substance or entity, > but an internal representation... an ideation... > A mentally constructed & mind created neural 'film' or > 'recording' of an external condition of which our only > witness & knowledge is this 'recorded film' itself... > What is behind this curtain of perception or what was > 'filmed' cannot ever be known nor communicated... > Nibbana may be likened to the blissful peace in the dark > cinema after the film have ended & all others have rushed > out in the streets, driven by the urge for new experience ... > > The interesting is not this boring, monotonous & > repetitious Film itself, but the salient End of it ... > To realize that fully takes incalculable aeons ... > > > > : - ] > > > - The End - > > All yours in the Dhamma. > Constructions Decay & Vanish. > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30061 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:40am Subject: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 06 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, ' The meditator ' is practising mindfulness on mind. 'He' perceives his meditational practice. He knows that he is now practising mindfulness exercise on mind. He is aware of outside world through 5 sense doors. He is also aware of inside world that is what are happening inside his mind. He is mindful on any matter outside or inside wise. Whenever mind goes outside or inside, he notes that a mind state arises such and such. After that he reorientates back to his breath. He is attending at his breath but he also knows whenever mind moves outside or inside wise. This means he notices after a while when a mind state arises at outside ( that is at sight, sound, smell, taste, touch ) or inside ( that is arising of thoughts which is not at the breath ). He may not know immediately these mind states because there is some delay before he notices that he is no longer at his breath. But due to his long practice, he can recognize earlier than he was able to do so. Different mind states arises one after another. At a time, all arise at the breath and at that time, people would say that the meditator is well concentrated. The meditator is practising mindfulness on his breath and he thinks that he is well concentrated himself. But at a time, he feels fatigue that is both physically and mentally. Mentally here means that his mind state is not as alert as previous mind states while he is at the present state. But after a while he notices that a mind state has arisen which is slothful ( Samkhittacitta ). When he recognizes that mind state, another mind state has replaced already. He is alert again. And he continues to practise his mindfulness on his mind states. At a time, he is no lomger at his breath. Instead he is wandering away. That is mind states of different knids arise successively and they all do not attend the breath. So this state can be called as distracted mind. After a while, the meditator notices that he has drafted away and he notices that a mind state that is distracted from his breath has arisen. This mind state is also known as Vikkhittacitta that is distracted mind. May all beings practise mindfulness on own mind state and develop wisdom. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30062 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Michael/Victor Hello KenH, KenH: When you came to dsg, you honestly, and commendably, admitted you were an adherent of the Nagarjuna school of thought and your purpose here was to "sow seeds of doubt" (your exact words) amongst us Theravadins. Michael: I think you put me in the wrong box. I don't recall having said that "I am an adherent of the school of thought of Nagarjuna". What I probably said, and say again, is that in my view Nagarjuna is a true representative of the teachings of the Buddha found in the Pali Canon. Although he has been adopted as a foremost philosopher of Mahayana in my view he was truly defending the ideas expressed by the Buddha found in the suttas. KenH: You talk as if the Abhidhamma is `known to be' not the word of the Buddha. You have said it yourself, you have given your reasons and people have put the opposite case. Unless you can come up with further evidence, perhaps you should avoid throwing a spanner in the works every time there is a discussion of Abhidhamma. The same with the commentaries; like it or not, they are an accepted part of the original Theravada School of Buddhism. In this forum, I think the onus is on you to prove they are forgeries, not on others to prove they are genuine. Michael: I don't recall saying that the Abhidhamma 'is known to not have been the word of the Buddha.' I don't have any problems with the Abhidhamma Canonical works, quite the opposite, I have found them quite useful and quite often in my day to day refer to what I have learned to help me understand what is happening inside my mind. My big problem is in relation to the commentaries specially those compiled by Buddhaghosa. His writings are a mixed bag of good things and very bad things borrowed from other schools of thought which contradict the teachings of the Canonical texts. To prove something depends on the listener, even the Buddha was not capable of convincing everybody. If someone adheres firmly to his views and does not let go of them, nothing in this world will change them. So, I put my ideas forward, if someone does not like them simply throw them away. KenH: That's fine, except your arguments have been logically met and yet you continue to state them as if they were uncontested fact. For example, you talk as if the accepted definition of sabhava is; `not subject to conditions.' Michael: If that is your view simply disregard my messages that deal with this subject. I will be quiet for a while anyway until I finish reading the Katthavatthu which I have not even received yet. Metta Michael 30063 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hello Sarah, Sarah: I think we need to discuss this area in some depth. How about you start by explaining why you think that ultimate dhammas (aka paramattha dhammas or namas and rupas or khandhas or ayatanas or dhatus) 'places conditionality in the background'.. Michael: This is what I notice in the discussions in the list. There is much greater emphasis placed on 'paramatha dhammas' than on conditionality. It is also reflected in the practice of the Dhamma. As I understand many of the 'believers in paramatha dhammas' don't practice meditation. I think this is your case also. To be honest I don't fully understand how you practice the Dhamma but it must be influenced by the view about paramatha dhammas. The disregard for meditation falls within that view and shows to me that conditionality is not considered very highly. Sarah: On the contrary, 'highest sense' is beyond language, i.e 'not taken from tradition, or hearsay'. It means that regardless of anything said or known about them, paramattha dhammas are still 'ultimates' or 'realities' as shown to us by the Buddha. Michael: If it were beyond language no one would be able to talk about it, but quite the contrary there is a lot of talk about it. The Buddha did not show paramatha dhammas, this is not found in the Suttas, but let's see what can be found in the Katthavatthu. Metta Michael 30064 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/13/04 11:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Howard, I think that in order not to misrepresent what the Buddha > said you might want to find a reference in which the Buddha actually > said that he used concepts without being fooled by them. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Victor, haven't you seen the four or so follow-up posts of mine on this? If not, you might consider reading them. If yes, then you might consider rereading them. If you see and understand what I wrote, there should be no question of misrepresentation but only one of my searching for the facts. ------------------------------------------------- > > You said that: > > "One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but unless one is a child > or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, one knows > that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for that > matter, any actual thing called "the sky". > > > Could you explain what the point is? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, sorry. It is clear. ------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Victor > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30065 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Ken O, Let me try to explain first in more general and abstract terms. As I see it, there are two aspects to the issue of control. The first aspect concerns whether it is possible or impossible for whom or what controls whom or what. I called that the control relation. Take form and self in question, we have the following permutation of control relations: 1. It is impossible for form to control form itself. 2. It is possible for form to control form itself. 3. It is impossible for form to control oneself. 4. It is possible for form to control oneself. 5. It is impossible for one to control form. 6. It is possible for one to control form. 7. It is impossible for one to control oneself. 8. It is possible for one to control oneself. The second aspect concerns the domain of qualities that qualifies the "controlled"/"not controlled" in question in the the control relation. Let me use some symbols to explain what I mean. By saying it is possible or impossible for X to control Y, I mean it is possible or impossible for X to control Y in specific qualities. Two domains of qualities qualify "controlled"/"not controlled" in the control relation are considered: the characteristics of being impermanent or permanent, dukkha or not dukkha, not self or self, and the qualities of being unskillful/unwholesome/akusala or skillful/wholesome/kusala in body, speech, and mind. Now let me go back to the list of permutation of the control relations. With the domain of qualities in consideration, I will list what I consider as true statements: 1. It is impossible for form to control form itself in the characteristics of being impermanent, dukkha, not self. 2. It is impossible for form to control oneself in the qualities of being skillful/wholesome/kusala in body, speech, and mind. 3. It is impossible for one to control form in it's characteristics of being impermanent, dukkha, not self. (But it is entirely possible for one to LOSE control of oneself to form.) 4. It is possible for one to control oneself in the qualities of being skillful/wholesome/kusala in bodily action, verbal actions, and mental actions. In terms of the five aggregates, the aggregate of fabrications is thus the one and only one aggregate to which both domains of qualities are applicable: while fabrications are characterized as impermanent, dukkha, not self, they can be characterized as skillful/wholesome/kusala or unskillful/unwholesome/akusala. The Buddha taught the relation between self and actions in the following passage for contemplation: 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html In that sense, while it is impossible for one to control bodily, verbal, and mental fabrications in their characteristics of being impermanent, dukkha, not self, it is entirely possible for one to control bodily, verbal, and mental fabrications in the qualities of being skillful/wholesom/kusala. Let me list the control relations with their applicable qualifications regarding fabrications and self: 1. It is impossible for fabrications to control fabrications themselve in their characteristics of being impermanent, dukkha, not self. 2. It is impossible for fabrications to control oneself in the qualities of being skillful/wholesome/kusala in body, speech, and mind. 3. It is impossible for one to control fabrications in their characteristics of being impermanent, dukkha, not self. (But again, it is entirely possible for one to LOSE control to fabrications.) 4. It is possible for one to control fabrications in the qualities of being skillful/wholesome/kusala. 5. It is possible for one to control oneself in the qualities of being skillful/wholesome/kusala in bodily action, verbal actions, and mental actions. The relation in 4 and 5 are equivalent. Let me know if I can clarify further what I mean for you. Feedback and suggestions are welcome. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > > > While it is impossible for one to make bodily actions, verbal > > actions, and mental actions permanent, not dukkha, oneself, it is > > entirely possible for one to do what is skillful/wholesome/kusala > > and refrain from what is unskillful/unwholesome/akusala in body, > > speech, and mind. In that sense, I said that it is entirely > > possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, and mind. In > > that sense, it is entirely possible for one to restrain and control > > his body actions, verbal actions, and mental actions, not to make > > them permanent, not dukkha, self, but to abandon what is unskillful > > and develop what is skillful. > > k: I dont get you. In your first statement you said < it is impossible for form to control itself as form lends itself to > dis-ease. Form lends itself to dis-ease preciesly because form is > not self.>>, then in the above you said, < it is entirely possible for one to control oneself in body, speech, > and mind.>>. In my opinion it is a contradiction, could you explain > this please. > > k: I think I have to say even though there is anatta, there is still > salvation. When Buddha say control, what does he meant. He does not > meant controlling of what conventional thinking of "controlling", he > is saying that one that is mindful, of wise consideration, or in > simple terms satipatthana. I dont think you will buy that :-) > > rgds > Ken O 30066 From: Larry Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Victor, Yes. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Do you mean it is the self-identity view with which one regards > something as "This is mine. This I am. This is my self."? > > Metta, > Victor > > 30067 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Hi Larry and Icaro, op 14-02-2004 00:27 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Is the printed word considered to be bodily > intimation? I expect you will say "no", but consider, it is a rupa, it > "intimates a wish", and it is produced by consciousness. N: I first answer Icaro, your questions are related. op 13-02-2004 17:55 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: ----------------------------------------------------------- > At my first readings on Abhidhamma, I always took terms like > Kayaviññatti and vaciviññatti (Bodily Intimation and verbal > intimation) as two of the 10 elements that are considered not Real > (anipphanannarupa). N: Both nipphannarupa, produced rupas, also called sabhava rupas, rupas with their own distinct nature, and anipphanannarupas, unproduced rupas, also called asabhava rupas, without their own distinct nature, are rupa dhammas, they are realities, see your packing list complete with all 28 rupas! The distinction is: anipphanannarupas are not separate concrete matter, but, they are specific characteristics of rupas, such as a change in the elements or characteristics of rupa such as origination, etc. But they are rupas, not abstract entities, not concepts. The Buddha taught Rahula the four great Elements and other rupas. He would not teach concepts, since people know concepts already, but he taught dhammas, elements, realities which are non-self. Icaro: If all anipphanannarupa are > raised up and produced by Citta, so the term "Not Real" don't fit so > much. If something is produced by Citta, so it is real at The Citta > realm... N: I would not say, real at the citta realm, but they are just dhammas. I: if you consider > Citta as a material process at our brains and nerves - from sense- > doors to material sense organs and mind at the last end... N: I do not consider citta as a material porocess, citta is mental, and the process of citta goes on according to citta nyama. Brains, nerves, these are conventional terms, they do not help us to understand citta, cetasika and rupa. Larry: as to the printed word: here we think of an effect of an action in conventional sense. You probably think of the act of typing, which is directed by citta. It is in the same way as painting, or building a house, different actions by which citta creates something. But in order to understand the rupa of bodily intimation, we have to consider the rupa which has as function to convey a meaning. As we read in the ³Dhammasangani² (§ 636): >> >> What is that rúpa which is bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti)? >> That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, > in >> response to a thought, whether good or bad, or indeterminate > (kiriyacitta), >> on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or > glances >> around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth - the intimation, > the >> making known, the state of having made known - this is that rúpa > which >> constitutes bodily intimation. There are seven javana cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the process of cittas, and six of them cause bodily tension or motion, but only the seventh javana citta is the cause of the rupa that is bodily intimation, and this rupa falls away with that citta. It is the only rupa lasting for just one moment of citta. It is hard to pinpoint, but we know it is the cause of gestures or facial expression which display a meaning or intention. In order to understand this rupa it is not helpful to think of a whole situation or story, such as: I type and then I make known a wish, etc. Then we shall not know that rupa. It is not a word or term, it is not theoretical, but it is rupa, it is an element, it is real. It is a very subtle rupa, arising and falling away with one moment of citta. It can be directly known by insight, but it depends on whether it appears to the insight knowledge or not. Not all rupas have to be known by vipassana ~naa.na, but we should not say that it is impossible to know it. Nina. 30068 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 2/13/04 11:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Howard, I think that in order not to misrepresent what the Buddha > > said you might want to find a reference in which the Buddha actually > > said that he used concepts without being fooled by them. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Victor, haven't you seen the four or so follow-up posts of mine on > this? If not, you might consider reading them. If yes, then you might consider > rereading them. If you see and understand what I wrote, there should be no > question of misrepresentation but only one of my searching for the facts. > ------------------------------------------------- I find it questionable if what you attributed to the Buddha have the same meaning as what the Buddha actually said as recorded in the discourses. I find it quesionable if what you attributed the Buddha fits into the context of the passage quoted out of a long and involved discourse. "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." [10] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn09.html As I see it, the discourse itself is long and involved. Perhaps it is better to understand this passage in the context of the whole discourse, not out of context. > > > > > You said that: > > > > "One may speak of a "rainbow in the sky", but unless one is a child > > or lives in a culture bereft of meteorological knowledge, one knows > > that there is no actual thing called "a rainbow", nor, for that > > matter, any actual thing called "the sky". > > > > > > Could you explain what the point is? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, sorry. It is clear. > ------------------------------------------------- I see no connection between what you wrote in quote and what the Buddha taught on dukkha and cessation of dukkha. Metta, Victor 30069 From: Larry Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: bodily intimation, 1 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I take it that bodily intimation is confined to the body and doesn't include other rupas in the world that convey an intimation, such as a traffic sign. What about sign language? I suppose music is out, but what about dance? Also, it seems to me the two intimations are bound by convention. What is a meaningful gesture in one culture means something else in another, or is meaningless. Is this an aspect of rupa without individual characteristic (sabhava)? Larry 30070 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Andrew (and James, and Victor, and all) - In a message dated 2/14/04 12:04:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > Hi Howard and James > > In the context of this thread, I consulted the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta > on AccesstoInsight. > > James wrote: > > How can it be > >that volition is conditioned by `oneself' if there is no self? As > I > >have been explaining, that is because the Buddha didn't teach > `there > >is no self', he taught to not view anything as `self' in order to > >attain liberation. > > A: James' view has some appeal, but is it right? I did the following > little exercise with the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. The following is a > quotation where I have deleted "mental fabrications" and > inserted "volition". I have done this to bring it down to our > specific topic: volition (cetana) is a mental fabrication (sankhara), > is it not? So the substitution should hold true. > > Here goes: > > "Volition is not self. If volition were the self, this volition would > not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with > regard to volition 'Let my volition be thus. Let my volition not be > thus.' But precisely because volition is not self, volition lends > itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to > volition 'Let my volition be thus. Let my volition not be thus.'" > > So: > 1. regarding "no control", is not the Buddha here stating that it is > not possible to control or direct volition? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: He is saying that with regard to volition as anything else, one cannot truthfully just say "My wish is my command." Volition, as all other phenomena, arises due to impersonal causes and conditions, among which, of course, can be prior instances of volition. It is all impersonal. I don't claim otherwise. --------------------------------------------------- > 2. if there is NOTHING in any of the Buddha's extensive listing of > phenomena of which it may be said "this is mine; this is my self; > this is what I am", can we really argue (as does James, for example) > that "the Buddha didn't teach there is no self"? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think we can. (But more about this below.) In fact, the content of the Sabba Sutta together with all the repeated assertions by the Buddha that no phenomena mentioned therein are self is sufficient to infer there is no self. -------------------------------------------------- > 3. since everyone is asking for references, I might too. Where is > the reference for the Buddha stating either that > (a) there IS a self that is not just a conventional designation; or > (b) whether there is a self or not is an imponderable question? > > Hmmm. > > Best wishes > Andrew > > ============================= What is the case, however, is that the Buddha did not, so far as I know, directly a specifically state "There is no self". I believe that he never directly stated that for two reasons: 1) He didn't wish to terrify people, and 2) He wanted to avoid the consequence of people accepting that as a belief which will substitute for direct knowing. The Buddha didn't wish to inculcate beliefs, but to guide people towards direct realization, enlightenment, and liberation. With metta, Howard P.S. I lost the original of this post when Windows froze up. This is my best attempt at a repetition of it. If the original should come through as well, my apologies for the repetition. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30071 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, James - In a message dated 2/14/04 2:16:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > It seems to me that you describe your > position a little differently each time. ==================== I started doing that after I sat in on the course EEL WRIGGLING 101 at my college! ;-) Actually, I think that anything, to be properly described, must be described in many alternative ways. Nothing with any reality to it is simply describable. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30072 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 2/14/04 7:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > I couldn't make out these two Suttas from your post ============================= The content of the two suttas was as follows (hope no odd sysmbols): Sense control -> Virtue -> Right concentration -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. and Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30073 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, Do you mean that what the Buddha taught implicitly and indirectly imply that there is no self? Do you mean that in direct knowing people will see that there is no self? As you see it, are the views "there is no self" and "there is self" what the Buddha taught? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew (and James, and Victor, and all) - [snip] > ============================= > What is the case, however, is that the Buddha did not, so far as I > know, directly a specifically state "There is no self". I believe that he never > directly stated that for two reasons: > 1) He didn't wish to terrify people, and > 2) He wanted to avoid the consequence of people accepting that as a > belief which will substitute for direct knowing. The Buddha didn't wish to > inculcate beliefs, but to guide people towards direct realization, enlightenment, > and liberation. > > With metta, > Howard 30074 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/14/04 2:23:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Do you mean that what the Buddha taught implicitly and indirectly > imply that there is no self? > --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. -------------------------------------- > > Do you mean that in direct knowing people will see that there is no > self? > --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. --------------------------------------- > > As you see it, are the views "there is no self" and "there is self" > what the Buddha taught? > --------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha directly taught that no phenomena are self. (Sabbe dhamma anatta.) But his intent, as I inderstand him, was not to inculcate belief, but to encourage proper practice and cultivation. --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30075 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 0:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, So you mean that what the Buddha taught implicitly and indirectly imply that there is no self and people will see as such in direct knowing. How do you know that in direct knowing people will see that there is no self? Have you been in direct knowing? I asked that As you see it, are the views "there is no self" and "there is self" what the Buddha taught? You replied: The Buddha directly taught that no phenomena are self. (Sabbe dhamma anatta.) But his intent, as I inderstand him, was not to inculcate belief, but to encourage proper practice and cultivation. Well, is the view "there is no self" what the Buddha taught or not? is the view "there is self" what the Buddha taught or not? Is "Sabbe dhamma anatta" directly translated as "no phenomena are self"? How do you know the Buddha's intent? Did you read his mind? Or did the Buddha said so as recorded in the discourses? Do you mean that if the Buddha teach the view "there is no self" explicitly, then he would be inculcating belief and would not encourage proper practice and cultivation? Do you mean that "there is no self" is a teaching that the Buddha could get across to his disciples implicitly and indirectly without stating it explicitly and directly such that they would see this teaching in direct knowing? What else do you think one would see in direct knowing, beside seeing that there is no self? This is a passage in which one's knowledge on release is explicitly stated as: With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world. This is a passage in which the Buddha explicitly stated his knowledge & vision on his release: And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine -- with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present -- was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine -- with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present -- was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 2/14/04 2:23:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Do you mean that what the Buddha taught implicitly and indirectly > > imply that there is no self? > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. > -------------------------------------- > > > > > Do you mean that in direct knowing people will see that there is no > > self? > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. > --------------------------------------- > > > > > As you see it, are the views "there is no self" and "there is self" > > what the Buddha taught? > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha directly taught that no phenomena are self. (Sabbe dhamma > anatta.) But his intent, as I inderstand him, was not to inculcate belief, but > to encourage proper practice and cultivation. > --------------------------------------- > > > > > Metta, > > > ===================== > With metta, > Howard 30076 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Dear Nina> N: Both nipphannarupa, produced rupas, also called sabhava rupas, rupas with > their own distinct nature, and anipphanannarupas, unproduced rupas, also > called asabhava rupas, without their own distinct nature, are rupa dhammas, > they are realities, see your packing list complete with all 28 rupas! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on! My own mind, by nature, follows up a materialistic way to translate such terms, but such viewpoint is only a matter of concept. More than "Real" or "Not Real" "entities" ( at Citta realms or not) your statement as "Realities" or sets of meaning goes toward at a more definite path! (Well remembered about packing doing! Above all dualistic viewpoints of Nyama´s meaning, for example, all grounded on a loose feeling of ´No Control´ there is the unique and sure definition: definite order!!!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The distinction is: anipphanannarupas are not separate concrete matter, but, > they are specific characteristics of rupas, such as a change in the elements > or characteristics of rupa such as origination, etc. But they are rupas, not > abstract entities, not concepts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Like Euler´s mathematics: The set or group of Rupas includes concrete matter set, not the opposite! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Buddha taught Rahula the four great Elements and other rupas. He would > not teach concepts, since people know concepts already, but he taught > dhammas, elements, realities which are non-self. ------------------------------------------------------------------- This unique remark on Buddha´s dispensation makes me consider that Poetry is the true vehicle of Buddha´s expression of truth... I am reading Duroseille´s Pali Grammar too much!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: I would not say, real at the citta realm, but they are just dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- By definition, Mana conjoined with the object of Mind. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: I do not consider citta as a material porocess, citta is mental, and the > process of citta goes on according to citta nyama. Brains, nerves, these are > conventional terms, they do not help us to understand citta, cetasika and > rupa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow!!! That´s a direful judgment!!! I always keep a secret smile with all fuss people makes with such ill-assimilated scientifical concepts. Dialectical materialism, for example, falls down on these stumblingblocks - all that scientifical description of chemical and biological process don´t make the feeling that raise in ours when we contemplate a beautiful flower! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > There are seven javana cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the > process of cittas, and six of them cause bodily tension or motion, but only > the seventh javana citta is the cause of the rupa that is bodily intimation, > and this rupa falls away with that citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This matter of registering conscience (tadarammana) like writing, printing, painting, composing and so on, and the respective effects on Citta are a bit slippery. Is Tadarammana function deal on directly with such Rupas ? As the last term on a definite sequence, is correct identify Tadarammana with a material form of communication ? Mettaya, Ícaro 30077 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hello Icaro Thank you for respectfully butting in - please do it more often!! You wrote: > Self is not a conventional or ultimate reality or whatever: it´s a > wrong point of view. Andrew: What I was thinking was that "self" is a concept and I was classifying this as "conventional reality". Have I got this wrong? Icaro, you may be able to clarify something else for me (if not, perhaps there is someone else out there who can respectfully butt in?). I have the impression that some DSG-posters don't like to see the word "reality" in the expression "conventional reality". Is there only one reality or are there two? I have also been thinking about James's "two truths" theory in this regard. If you are listening in James (naughty, naughty), can you equate your theory to the conventional/ultimate reality distinction or am I way off beam with this suggestion? Best wishes Andrew 30078 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Michael/Victor Hi Michael You have helped me in the past and I do like your presence on this list. Admittedly, your bone of contention with Buddhaghosa is now well-gnawed and, for me, pretty much clean of marrow. Like Ken H, I did read your "sowing the seeds of doubt" post. Since I am in the meadow where these seeds are being cast, I hope you don't mind me asking you about your motivation. Do you believe you are accruing good karma by this endeavour? Why is it important to you in terms of your practice of Dharma? I won't be offended if you don't feel like answering these questions. Best wishes Andrew 30079 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:33pm Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Sukin, Sukin: I think you have read many times here, that the whole Tipitaka is about the development of satipatthana. James: Yes, I have read that many times in this group. But I haven't read it anywhere else and I haven't read where the Buddha said that. Why would you say that the whole Tipitaka is about the development of satipatthana? Predominately, the Satipatthana Sutta is about the development of Satipatthana. For instance, right now in the SN corner we are studying suttas about Mara. They are not specifically about the development of satipatthana. However, I am not suggesting that satipatthana isn't extremely important, it is. The Buddha described it as the `only direct path' to discovering what he taught. Unfortunately, what K. Sujin teaches as satipatthana I don't believe is true satipatthana. Satipatthana is about the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and a systematic method of meditation and supporting activities to follow in order to gain insight into reality. For example, the first section of the sutta begins: "And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating the body as a body? Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out." Now, it doesn't take a genius to understand this description as meditation instructions; but no, K. Sujinians claim that it is just a description of something that spontaneously occurs! LOL! I have rarely seen such ridiculous denial in my life! It goes right up there with `filtered cigarettes don't cause cancer'! ;-)) If you don't want to meditate, fine, but for goodness sakes don't claim that the Buddha didn't teach meditation or that the Satipatthana Sutta doesn't contain meditation instructions. I used to practice satipatthana (vipassana) but I took it as far as I could so I am switching to jhana. I find that jhana helps to calm my mind down into order to deal with the `shock' of seeing reality as it is. Sukin: Do you object to the idea that it is understanding of the present arising dhamma which constitute the development of wisdom? James: No. That is the only way to develop wisdom as taught by the Buddha. However, I don't think it can be done just anywhere at anytime. There shouldn't be any unnecessary distractions. That is why the Buddha suggested the forest, the foot of a tree (they have really big trees in India that are very secluded underneath), or an empty hut. So, could it be done while grocery shopping? Obviously not very well. Sukin: However as Ivan a friend, often says, "Dhamma is really simple, but *hard* to see", I grow also more and more appreciative of this comment of his. After all, what is there but the present moment to be known and understood? James: Well, I guess it is relative. To me just the Satipatthana Sutta is complex (and there are also two versions). But Buddhism can be summed up as: Don't do evil, do only good, and purify the mind. That sounds pretty simple, but so hard to do. So I guess I see both sides on that issue. Metta, James 30080 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:39pm Subject: Re: Andy, Love lost --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Carl > > > Andy, My heart goes out to you. Your despair is large. You are > > suffering as a death. > > Andy, I have been a faithful lurker on DSG for several monthes > now. > > I can tell you that this is the deep end of the pool as far as > > Buddhism is concerned. Not an easy place to begin your study of > > Buddhism. Dear Carl and Andy, Maybe Andy is not a beginner, maybe he has listened to the Dhamma in the past and just needs a 'memory jog'. Andy, your sad post was a condition for me to remember my own times of despair from a long term relationship end. Luckily, I have good dhamma friends who helped me. Really tho, what I want to write about are the 5 Khandhas or aggregates of clinging. I queried once, why was Vedanakhandha [feeling - past, present, future] and Sannakhandha [memory -past, present, future] singled out from the other Sankharakhandhas [ joy, anger, conceit, doubt, generosity etc. etc. etc.]. Your post was not only a condition for me to remember, but also to think about Sannakhandha,even more than Vedanakhandha,for me anyway, and how the memories and the ass. feelings are so strong - the events are long gone but feeling and memory are real. So dear Andy, I want to thank you for your post bec. it has helped me to understand the Dhamma a little more. Hang around, it may seem like a heavy duty site but one never knows when understanding can arise and it is only in those moments when it does arise that it can grow. Sad moments are very real but they can be known for what they are - real and impermanent!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 30081 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: A HAPPY VALENTINE´S DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was trying to quote "Benny the Bouncer" by memory! I am not an Arahant for such brain feats!!! And Now...the Complete "Benny The Bouncer"!!! " Benny was the bouncer at the Palais de Danse He'd slash your granny's face up given half a chance. He'd sell you back the pieces, all for loss than half a quiiiid He thought he was the meanest- Until he met with Savage Sid. Now Sidney was a greaser with some nasty roots He poured a pint of Guinness over Benny's boots Benny looked at Sidney: Sidney stared right back in his eye. Sidney chose a switchblade and Benny got a cold meat pie. Oh! what a terrible sight, Much to the people's delight. One hell of a fight. (The Honky Tonk continues to play!!!) Sidney grabbed a hatchet, buried it .... in Benny's head. The people gasped as he bled: The end of a Ted? Well, they dragged him from the wreckage of the Palais in bits. They tried to stick together all the bits that would fit. But some of him was missing and "part of him" arrived too late, So now he works for Jesus As the bouncer at St. Peter's Gate." (Yeah !!!!! Finally Benny put an end to his series of ressurrections, becoming an Arahant, a guardian of the humanity at St. Peter´s gate. Buddha states that everyone that becomes an Arahant must take his vows everyday in his life or die...and if he is not so Ted as Sid, now is at a more high level!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30082 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Michael/Victor Hello Andrew, Andrew: I hope you don't mind me asking you about your motivation. Do you believe you are accruing good karma by this endeavour? Why is it important to you in terms of your practice of Dharma? I won't be offended if you don't feel like answering these questions. Michael: Thanks for asking those questions. First of all, as I said many times before, in my view paramatha dhammas have no place in the teachings of the Buddha. My motivation is to first test my understanding of the Dhamma, to put my ideas to the test. Second is to challenge the understanding of other participants and maybe stimulate them to look at entrenched ideas through new angles. This could be helpful in terms of practice for them. Accruing good karma? I don't know. Of course I think in terms of karma but not so much in 'accruing' karma as to purify the mind. Metta Michael 30083 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:22pm Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Sukin, > Sukin: Do you object to the idea that it is understanding of the > present arising dhamma which constitute the development of wisdom? > > James: No. That is the only way to develop wisdom as taught by the > Buddha. However, I don't think it can be done just anywhere at > anytime. There shouldn't be any unnecessary distractions. That is > why the Buddha suggested the forest, the foot of a tree (they have > really big trees in India that are very secluded underneath), or an > empty hut. So, could it be done while grocery shopping? Obviously > not very well. Dear James and Sukin, James, it is my understanding that these 'unnecessary distractions' are to be known too. For example,in the noise and bustle of a city, one can still develop understanding of the present moment. Even while grocery shopping, hardness appears, sound appears, visible object appears [i did,however, comment to a friend that there seemed to be more visible object in Bkk's China Town than anywhere else i had seen ;) ;) ;)!!! Joking aside, I don't want to waste this present moment and the opportunity to develop wisdom now, by going to the foot of a tree - and getting bitten by ants - and 'trying' to do something which is not my accummulations. I tried meditating and it just made me really angry so it was better not to do it. I want to get to know my accummulations better and to understand those latent tendencies which are so deep and sutle and I believe that I can only do that by living my natural lifestyle, and keeping in mind the 5 precepts, and other things that I learn about Dhamma. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 30084 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Dear Andrew > > Thank you for respectfully butting in - please do it more often!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- I ever take these questions of Butting in this or that with all respect! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- . > > Andrew: > What I was thinking was that "self" is a concept and I was > classifying this as "conventional reality". Have I got this wrong? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. As a matter of Fact, Conventional Realities - sammuit-sacca in Pali - are a concept, something that either makes known or is known, for example: 1) Santhana pannati - forms like land, mountains, etc, 2) Samuha Pannati - Collective concepts, group of things and so on, 3) Disa pannati - Concepts of locality, 4) Kala Pannati - Concepts of time, 5) Akasa Pannati - objetive concepts of space, like caves, wells, etc, 6) Nimitta pannati - conceptualized or visualized images. "Real" or "Ultimate" truths - Paramattha-Sacca - are: 1) Lokiya - "Mundane" Truths a) Viññana - consciousness, b) Cetasika - mental properties and... 2) Nibbana. So, the "Self", either as a concept or an objetive reality, is a misplaced viewpiont, a real error that must to be abandoned at once. If you could read the excellent Rob Moult´s essay on Free Will, you´ll get much more subsides about the true nature of Self and non- self! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Icaro, you may be able to clarify something else for me (if not, > perhaps there is someone else out there who can respectfully butt > in?). I have the impression that some DSG-posters don't like to see > the word "reality" in the expression "conventional reality". Is > there only one reality or are there two? I have also been thinking > about James's "two truths" theory in this regard. If you are > listening in James (naughty, naughty), can you equate your theory to > the conventional/ultimate reality distinction or am I way off beam > with this suggestion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- This ill-posed ideas of "Two Truths" and a disregard of Reality can be clarified if you get the knack of thinking on concepts as concepts - only artificial conventions - and about the "Ultimate Realities", as The Reality at all senses, from the mundane views to Nibbana. I could say to you "Simple!", but without some reading and thinking about it this buddhistic ideas are perhaps too much philosophical to get some appeal for laypersons... mettaya, Ícaro 30085 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:00pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Icaro Thank you for your answer. I just want to be clear on this - can "self" be classified as a samuha pannati (collective concept)? Do we not usually take the 5 aggregates (khandas - paramattha dhammas) and form a collective concept of 'self' as the object of our thinking (vicara?)? Starting to get confused a bit here. You wrote: Conventional Realities - sammuit-sacca in > Pali - are a concept, something that either makes known or is known, > for example: > 1) Santhana pannati - forms like land, mountains, etc, > 2) Samuha Pannati - Collective concepts, group of things and so > on, > 3) Disa pannati - Concepts of locality, > 4) Kala Pannati - Concepts of time, > 5) Akasa Pannati - objetive concepts of space, like caves, wells, > etc, > 6) Nimitta pannati - conceptualized or visualized images. > > "Real" or "Ultimate" truths - Paramattha-Sacca - are: > > 1) Lokiya - "Mundane" Truths > a) Viññana - consciousness, > b) Cetasika - mental properties and... > 2) Nibbana. > > So, the "Self", either as a concept or an objetive reality, is a > misplaced viewpiont, a real error that must to be abandoned at once. Best wishes Andrew 30086 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control || No Control Hi Victor > 4. It is possible for one to control oneself in the qualities of > being skillful/wholesome/kusala in bodily action, verbal actions, > and mental actions. k: So what is oneself then ;-) in your own words please. Another question isn't bodily and verbal actions dependent on form. I am sure bodily actions do, maybe some pple can communicate via ESP so there is no need for verbal actions. Or are your telling me, one can separate bodily actions from form. Ken O 30087 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, ------------------------- J: > Many feel that vipassana and samadhi were split apart as separate practices much later than when the Buddha taught and was not intended by him. -------------- Well, that would be an important issue to settle. But I think it is clear, from the suttas, that many ariyans attained enlightenment without ever practising jhana. -------------- J: > Each arising and passing away of a citta and cetasaika does last only one billionth of a second. but, we can be aware of many arising and passing aways. It is like seeing a movie. We don't see the individual frame but we do see a picture of a horse, car, etc. --------------------------- True, but that's still a conceptual way of knowing, isn't it? The direct way of knowing is the arising of the cetasika, panna to see that whatever arises and passes away is either a nama or a rupa. All too often, in the place of panna (amoha), there is ignorance (moha). At these times, we are ignorant of the difference between concept and reality. For example, we wonder; 'is visible object like a still-frame image on a movie film? Or is it like a pixel of colour on a TV screen? Or both? Or neither?' We are not blind, we have our eyes open, we are able to read words and avoid bumping into things – so we *know* there must be the eye, visible object, eye contact, eye-consciousness and so on. So, there is not necessarily moha all the time. But when we try to direct our mind to any one of those realities (try to have satipatthana), there is immediately concept (thinking) and ignorance (of the difference between thinking and reality). `Visible object' for example, becomes conceptualised as areas of colour, curved, straight, rounded, pointed, horse-like, car- like and so on. --------------- J: > I think there is a danger in not realizing that the Buddha had many teachings that applied to people at different points of their path. At one point, trying mind is very important. At another point, one relaxes. ---------------- If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and try to cross the flood? ----------------- J: > In my opinion, the Buddha did prescribe ritualistic practices, for example, going off into the forest and sitting down by a tree to meditate. ----------------------------- Sorry to be disagreeing so much, but sitting down (for example) is not a ritual that the Buddha prescribed for jhana cultivation. It is an activity that the Buddha described as being part of the jhana practitioner's method. There is a big difference. ---------------------------- J: > But, he made sure that people understood that rituals (and concepts) were worthless unless they pointed to something that would change us. --------------------------- Hmmm, hard to disagree with that :-) Let's remember, though, that rite and ritual are ultimately ineffective. --------------- J: > With all that said, Ken, what is your practice? Do you meditate? --------------- No, I don't have a formal practice. But, little by little, I am learning. So there must be a practice of some sort. ------------------------- J: > Do you try to see in your own experience all that we are talking about? ------------------------ Occasionally, against my better judgement, I `try' to experience reality. On some of these occasions, there is the recognition, "This is not right effort," and I remember that right effort is dependent upon right understanding -- not upon a controlling self. So, perhaps, moments like those are right practice. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 30088 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Michael/Victor Hi Michael > Thanks for asking those questions. First of all, as I said many > times before, in my view paramatha dhammas have no place in the > teachings of the Buddha. My motivation is to first test my > understanding of the Dhamma, to put my ideas to the test. Second is > to challenge the understanding of other participants and maybe > stimulate them to look at entrenched ideas through new angles. This > could be helpful in terms of practice for them. Accruing good > karma? I don't know. Of course I think in terms of karma but not so > much in 'accruing' karma as to purify the mind. k: You are always welcome to challenge my beliefs anytime. I think your challenge has been beneificial, it brings me more confidence in the ancient texts that I have read. Furthermore, soon I will buy Nagarjuna books since you are sincere to read the ancient text, I will read Nagarjuna also. Ken O 30089 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: [snip] But I think it is > clear, from the suttas, that many ariyans attained enlightenment > without ever practising jhana. Any reference to the discourse to support your claim? Ken, is it true that many ariyans attained enlightenment without ever practising jhana? [snip] > > Kind regards, > Ken H Metta, Victor 30090 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: harsh speech among friends Hello Victor You wrote: Isn't abusive, harsh speech wrong speech? Isn't it akusala? If it > is wrong speech, how could an arahant still had it? > Nina wrote: I read about an arahat who used to abuse non brahmans in former > lives, and > > when he became an arahat he continued such speech, but not with > akusala > > citta, since he had eradicated all akusala. It was just a habit, > called > > vasana, and only a Buddha can eradicate this. Andrew: Since Herman isn't posting much these days, I will devise a little test or experiment in his fashion. Let's assume: 1. you and I speak the same language; 2. our language is spoken in lots of different places around the world; 3. there is a noun in our language - let's call it "so-and-so" to avoid any possibility of giving offence - and this noun is generally considered to be rude and harsh. 4. however, in my country, "so-and-so" is not considered rude and harsh, but rather is used in a friendly manner. 5. let's also assume that "so-and-so" is very context-specific ie in certain contexts, there really is no other word commonly used. 6. you visit my country in order to explain the Dhamma to my compatriots. You are aware of the usage of "so-and-so" in my country and the context arises wherein it would be locally used. QUESTION: Do you use the word? TEST RESULTS: If you answered "no" - you fail. If you answered "yes" - you pass. My (all-important) reference for this is Aranavibhanga Sutta (MN139.12) which I interpret as the Buddha advising the bhikkhus to be open to communicating in the local language and normal usage. A bit contrived? Well ... yes. And it really addresses a situation where "harsh speech" is not really "harsh speech" at all. So was the arahant Nina spoke of merely conforming to local usages or was he, out of habit, using genuinely harsh speech? Like Victor, I would have thought that an arahant's speech would have to be Right Speech, but I am open to the possibility that Right Speech may include words that are, to some, harsh. Surely, an arahant can see this far more clearly than a worldling. And we worldlings can take little succour from knowing that harsh words can come out of the mouth of an arahant because our situation is so much different! Victor, I have also read some suttas where the Buddha gives a bhikkhu a real roasting over misrepresenting the Dhamma or some other fault. He really could be quite severe in his language at times! So maybe we shouldn't be surprised to hear about Nina's arahant? Best wishes Andrew 30091 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/14/04 3:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > So you mean that what the Buddha taught implicitly and indirectly > imply that there is no self and people will see as such in direct > knowing. > > How do you know that in direct knowing people will see that there is > no self? Have you been in direct knowing? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, Victor, I don't know why you feel compelled to interrogate me or why you think you have the right to. Secondly, I think the Buddha's message is a clear one of there not being a self to be found in anything anywhere. That is how I see it, it is clear to me, and it is my prerogative to see matters so. Thirdly - yes, I have directly experienced no-self. I don't suppose you wish to debate that, do you? I'm telling you, straight out, that I have experienced it. (I'm not claiming enlightenment or anything so grandiose, though. I am very, very far from that. ---------------------------------------------- > > I asked that > > As you see it, are the views "there is no self" and "there is self" > what the Buddha taught? > > > You replied: > > The Buddha directly taught that no phenomena are self. (Sabbe dhamma > anatta.) But his intent, as I inderstand him, was not to inculcate > belief, but to encourage proper practice and cultivation. > > > Well, is the view "there is no self" what the Buddha taught or not? > is the view "there is self" what the Buddha taught or not? > Is "Sabbe dhamma anatta" directly translated as "no phenomena are > self"? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The direct translation is "Every dhamma is not self." Knowing that all buddhas are ariyans, would you challenge me were I to say that no buddha is a worldling? Do you always require exact wording, never allowing for paraphrase, even when the paraphrase is logically equivalent? ----------------------------------------------- > > How do you know the Buddha's intent? Did you read his mind? Or did > the Buddha said so as recorded in the discourses? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Cute - nice sarcasm!. I'm now tiring of the interrogation to the extent that I won't continue. I frankly think you have a nerve in continuing in this fashion. ---------------------------------------------- > > Do you mean that if the Buddha teach the view "there is no self" > explicitly, then he would be inculcating belief and would not > encourage proper practice and cultivation? > > Do you mean that "there is no self" is a teaching that the Buddha > could get across to his disciples implicitly and indirectly without > stating it explicitly and directly such that they would see this > teaching in direct knowing? > > What else do you think one would see in direct knowing, beside > seeing that there is no self? > > This is a passage in which one's knowledge on release is explicitly > stated as: > > With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > done. There is nothing further for this world. > > > This is a passage in which the Buddha explicitly stated his > knowledge &vision on his release: > > And, monks, as long as this knowledge &vision of mine -- with its > three rounds &twelve permutations concerning these four noble > truths as they actually are present -- was not pure, I did not claim > to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in > the cosmos with its devas, Maras, &Brahmas, with its contemplatives > &priests, its royalty &commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & > vision of mine -- with its three rounds &twelve permutations > concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present -- > was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the > right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras > &Brahmas, with its contemplatives &priests, its royalty & > commonfolk. Knowledge &vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my > release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" > > > Metta, > Victor > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30092 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:57pm Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* Hello Sukin, and all, As you say, 'the whole Tipitaka is about the development of satipatthana' i.e. "The only way that leads to the attainment of purity, to the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, to the end of pain and grief, to the entering of the right path, and to the realization of Nibbaana is the 4 foundations of mindfulness". So important was this point that this verse both begins and ends each of the Satipatthana Suttas DN 22 and MN 10. Sukin, I'm glad of your courteous, honest posts, free from atimaana. I learn a lot from you. You treat those who come from different perspectives on the Teachings with the respect that is a basic sign of the metta and adhivaasanaa that true practice instils. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" > > Sukin: > the whole Tipitaka is about the development of > satipatthana. I feel inclined to agree with this. 30093 From: Sarah Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: harsh speech among friends Hi Andrew, Victor and Nina, --- Andrew wrote: > Hello Victor > > You wrote: > Isn't abusive, harsh speech wrong speech? Isn't it akusala? If it > > is wrong speech, how could an arahant still had it? > > > Nina wrote: > I read about an arahat who used to abuse non brahmans in former > > lives, and > > > when he became an arahat he continued such speech, but not with > > akusala > > > citta, since he had eradicated all akusala. It was just a habit, > > called > > > vasana, and only a Buddha can eradicate this. .... Herman and I were discussing Pilinda (nicknamed Vaccha) in the Pilinda Udana 3-6 who addressed other monks as ‘outcastes’. I added more detail from the commentary in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m24518.html Also see more details about Pilinda here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/pu/pilinda_vaccha.htm Metta, Sarah p.s Having met you, Andrew, it’s easy for me to assure others of your kindly and friendly-intended speech;-) ========================= 30094 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:45pm Subject: The World is a Representation! Friend htootintnaing asks: > Could you please explain what you meant by perceive > and conceive in connection with eye, ear, nose etc? This Udana I-10 may serve good here: So have I heard: When the Blessed One, on repeated requests from the Venerable Bahiya instructed him, standing in the street, in what were Venerable Bahiya's last minutes of life, the result was that he, Bahiya - the Bark-Clothed Recluse - attained final Nibbana! This direct, clear-cut & acutely express admonition was so simply expounded: In the seen is merely (the process of seeing &) what is seen. In the heard is merely (hearing &) what is heard. In the sensed is merely (sensing &) what is sensed. In the thought is merely (thinking &) what is thought. So knowing, you will not be (connected) `with that'. So disconnected you will not be (absorbed) `in that'. So neither `with that' nor `in that' you are! not `by that' sensation. # When there is no `you' (or "outside world") inferred!, deduced assumed or conjectured -By That- sensation, then `you' are neither `here', `there', `both', `beyond' nor `in between...' On realizing the importance of this incident the Blessed One exclaimed: `Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat or diffusion find footing, there no sun, moon nor star shines. There is neither any light yet nor is there any darkness. When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure & pain …' --ooOoo-- # Comments: The Train of Radical Empiricism. A gold-nugget of an instruction! Brevity is clarity! There is no-one who senses, even though sensing occurs! Seeing is just a selfless event of contact: between eye, object & visual consciousness. No `person' or `onlooker' is involved or can be inferred from that! No subject or `I' is created, just because there is an object, or just because there occurs the process of seeing … Similarly; No external world is implied by the perception itself! From seeing a film of a train one cannot conclude: this train exists! The fact that there is an image projected, does per se imply, in or by itself, that any-one actually is `looking in' or `is behind' the camera … Just camera is there. `By that' perception no `perceiver' is thereby present or created! Similarly; that there is an image projected, does per se imply, in or by itself, that there is any existing substance in front of the camera - out there - ! Just image is there. So the `personal entity' we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy the experience is merely a mental construct, an idea, a concept, & not a reality … The passive impersonal process of sensing, perception & experiencing cannot thereby be `instrumental' for neither creating nor inferring any `being in existence' or "substance in existence" !!! "'I' am not, just because there is experience." "'World' is neither, just because there is experience." " What there IS is momentary Experience. No more is Fact!" The fact of this fundamental `selflessness' & "substancelessness" is far the most essential core of the Buddha-Dhamma. Outmost important to grasp yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby difficult & somewhat `nasty' to comprehend. Keep trying, since this central Anatta doctrine is the `opener, releaser & freer' of any mind. Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of `I' is both fatal, tragic & sardonically comic … Besides it is the first severe hindrance in the form the fetter of "Sakkaya-Ditthi" = "I am my own body View" to Entering the Stream of safety. 30095 From: Eznir Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: Namarupa - A comment Dear Bhante and Friends! Yes Bhante, there are those discriminations and more! But what ever the Dhamma that one 'chews on' will have to be in the realm of Sankhara, not outside. Hence I said, 'The designation of a thing that is learnt over time accounts for the Sankhãrã(mental fabrications) of a person. If a Thing is rightly learnt that would constitute Right Knowledge and Right Deliverance for that person". Because, if one does not grasp the Teachings in the right way, verification of what one has learnt(which eventually eradicates ignorance), in ones 'private moments(experience/direct seeing)' will be impossible, wouldn't it Bhante? So far in that illustration, all that is said is of Matter and Consciousness of the ultimate realities. These will have to be further elaborated. Matter in its most fundamental structure as an element of extension, cohesion, maturization and motion was said. Because these are the qualities of matter that one could verify in ones mind, viz., the qualties of hardness/lightness, viscosity or gripping or binding, heat/cold and supporting or moving respectively. Which one perceives as earth, water, fire and air. From which all that is matter is supported, including this body. Hence it is said that matter as matter is fabricated. What has been written so for is not possible if not for Sankhara! And Sankhara have not yet been formerly discussed. All that has been said is of Matter. So one can imagine how complex a thing Sankhara can be! It seems to be there in all of these words that have been written so far! As one reads this message, it must be conjuring up ideas and/or images of what is being said in these words if one is able to follow my line of thinking. Even these ideas and/or images are forms of rupa, the mind-objects, that ones mind engages with. The two leading contenders of Sankhara are Feelings & Perceptions. Which is why they are termed Mental Fabrications. These two are the last to cease in the path to Nibbana. The first to go are the verbal fabrications of thinking and pondering, then the bodily fabrications of the 5 sensual cords. Which still leaves mental activity that finally ceases, in the sense one is equanamous in ones dealings with 'the world'. Neither pushes nor pulls, likes nor dislikes, desires nor hates. In this way, one is not ignorant but wise. Being wise one stays aloof from the root of all unwholesome thought, viz., attachments, aversions and ignorance. This, broadly speaking, is Nama, without the sense of duality in Bhante's queries. Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Dear Eznir: > > Some discriminations to chew on: > > Is NamaRupa internal or external or both or neither ? > Is NamaRupa local or global or both or neither ? > Is NamaRupa separable or inseparable or both or neither ? > Is Namarupa 2 things or 1 thing or both or neither ? > > : - ] 30096 From: Eznir Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: The World is a Representation! Dear Bhante & Friends! The presence or 'is-ness' of Things is Consciousness. When one perceives and conceives presence of things to be 'mine' 'I am' or 'myself' the world arises! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friend htootintnaing asks: 30097 From: Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:55pm Subject: Apology Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Victor (and all) - I am writing with regard to my previous reply to you on this thread, Victor. It was a reply made in anger, and I apologize for that. I do not wish to change the objective content of that post of mine, which I still think is valid, but I very much regret the anger that underlay it and that I expressed. There is no excuse for that. It is wrong speech, I very much regret it, and I apologize for it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30098 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory - Sabhava Michael Many thanks for this. It is interesting to read your take on things in the light of your reading of Karunadasa's article. However, this of course puts the discussion on a basis some steps removed from the texts in question themselves, so I hope you don't mind if I decline to comment directly but go back to basics, as it were, instead. Below is passage from Visuddhi-Magga and its commentary (Nanamole translation). Please see the reference to 'individual essence' (sabhava) in the last sentence of the commentary passage, in the footnote. My reading of that part of the passage is as follows: The experience of visible datum by eye consciousness occurs where the individual essence of visible datum is revealed to eye consciousness by the presence of light. Here 'sabhava' simply means 'distinctive characteristic'. As far as I can see, it carries no connotation of 'fixed', 'lasting' or whatever. Do you find anything objectionable in the use of 'sabhava' in this particular instance? Jon ************* Vism I, 53 53. 'On seeing a visible object with the eye': on seeing a visible object with the eye-consciousness ... But when there is the impingement of door and object he sees by means of the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physical basis. ... So the meaning here is this: "On seeing a visible object with eye-consciousness."'[14] [14] ... “One sees”: one looks (oloketi); for when the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its material support is disclosing (obhaasente) by means of the special quality of its support a visible datum as object that is assisted by light (aaloka), then it is said that a person possessed of that sees the visible datum. And here the illuminating is the revealing of the visible datum according to its individual essence, in other words, the apprehending of it experientially (paccakkhato). ...' (Pm. 40-41). ************* --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, Jon, and all others interested in this topic, > > I am writing in relation to the essay “The Dhamma Theory” written > by Prof. Y > Karunadasa (link below). The essay presents a valuable and > comprehensive > view of the development of the dhamma theory. Based on that essay > my take on sabhava and paramatha is as follows: 30099 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:13am Subject: Re: Namarupa - A comment Hello Eznir, and all, Eznir says: "As one reads this message, it must be conjuring up ideas and/or images of what is being said in these words if one is able to follow my line of thinking. Even these ideas and/or images are forms of rupa, the mind-objects, that ones mind engages with". My limited understanding is that mental formations (sankhara) are 'nama'. Was the word 'rupa' a mistype? If not, could you explain a little more to me where I am confused about how 'ideas' are rupa please? Also - you say "The two leading contenders of Sankhara are Feelings & Perceptions. Which is why they are termed Mental Fabrications." I don't understand this either, (sorry), maybe I'm unclear about what you mean by 'contenders'... the 5 groups of khandas are (1) rupa- khandha corporeality group (2) vedana-khanda the feeling group (3) sanna-khanda the perception group (4) sankhara-khanda the mental formations group and (5)vinnana-khanda the consciousness group. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Eznir" > Sankhara have not yet been formerly discussed. All that has been said > is of Matter. So one can imagine how complex a thing Sankhara can be! > It seems to be there in all of these words that have been written so > far! As one reads this message, it must be conjuring up ideas and/or > images of what is being said in these words if one is able to follow > my line of thinking. Even these ideas and/or images are forms of > rupa, the mind-objects, that ones mind engages with. > > The two leading contenders of Sankhara are Feelings & Perceptions. > Which is why they are termed Mental Fabrications. These two are the > last to cease in the path to Nibbana. The first to go are the verbal > fabrications of thinking and pondering, then the bodily fabrications > of the 5 sensual cords. Which still leaves mental activity that > finally ceases, in the sense one is equanamous in ones dealings > with 'the world'. Neither pushes nor pulls, likes nor dislikes, > desires nor hates. In this way, one is not ignorant but wise. Being > wise one stays aloof from the root of all unwholesome thought, viz., > attachments, aversions and ignorance. > > This, broadly speaking, is Nama, without the sense of duality in > Bhante's queries. > > Metta > > eznir 30100 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Michael In the suttas, we find frequent mention of 'dhammas' and of dhammas classified as the five aggregates (pancakhandha), the sense-bases (ayatanas), the elements (dhatu); in the Abhidhamma dhammas are generally classified as citta, cetasika and rupa [and nibbana]. The (later) term 'paramattha' is used to refer collectively to these dhammas and the truths about them; nothing more and nothing less. Why not stick with just 'dhammas'? I think because 'dhammas' is used in so many different ways in the suttas. Why 'in the ultimate sense'? I think to emphasise the fact that only these can be the object of panna of the level of vipassana: since this panna is understanding of the highest (ultimate) level (no disagreement here, I take it?), its object is referred to as reality in the highest sense. For textual support for some of the foregoing, see the quote from STA pasted below. The importance of a correct intellectual understanding of what is encompassed by the various terms aggregates (khandha), sense-bases (ayatanas), elements (dhatu), and citta, cetasika and rupa cannot be underestimated. The Buddha did not expound at length on these for nothing! His underlying message to we beginners, to my reading, is that there is no correspondence between conventional notions of things, people, or places (= collectively, the 'conventional world') and these dhammas (the world in the 'ultimate' sense). While each has validity in its own sense (samutti sacca, paramattha sacca), there is no overlap between the two. For example, there is nothing in common *in reality* between conventional eye and the dhamma that is eye-base, between conventional 'things seen' and the dhamma that is visible-object. Likewise, 'table' is not an instance of rupa-khandha, and nor can rupa khandha be found in table. Jon STA (translation of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (Anuruddha) and its commentary the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii (Suma.ngala)) [Emphasis given by *use of asterisks* is mine] ******************** Prologue (2) The topics of Abhidhamma spoken of therein in full are from the ultimate standpoint four: consciousness, mentalities, materiality, and nibbaana. Commentary [THE EXPLANATION OF ULTIMATE DHAMMAS] 2. ... 'Therein' -- in the Abhidhamma 'the topics of Abhidhamma spoken of in full' -- as wholesome and so on, and *as aggregates and so on*, 'from the ultimate standpoint' [paramatthato] -- by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk 'are four' -- are classified in four ways, namely: 'consciousness (citta)', the *aggregate of consciousness* (vi~n~naa.na); 'mentalities', the *three aggregates beginning with feeling*; 'materiality', the *aggregate of materiality* differentiated as the elements and dependent materialities; 'nibbaana', the unconditioned dhamma which become the object of the paths and fruits. This is the grammatical construction. 'Ultimate' means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that *comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate*. ******************** --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, Jon, and all others interested in this topic, > > I am writing in relation to the essay “The Dhamma Theory” written > by Prof. Y > Karunadasa (link below). The essay presents a valuable and > comprehensive > view of the development of the dhamma theory. Based on that essay > my take on sabhava and paramatha is as follows: 30101 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:41am Subject: Catching Anger Dear Group, I wonder, as Howard's experience of anger is so close, if anyone would have some comments about anger in general? I would be interested in anyone's views on my 'incident'. You see, yesterday I visited some relatives and a similar thing happened where anger overcame me because of a remark someone made, which revealed a rather prejudiced view they had of another group. I said something quite firmly but politely (which I considered necessary). Tenseness was evident, the atmosphere could have been cut with a knife. Within ten minutes or so, amends were made, hugs all round, casual chatting re-started. But, driving home later I still felt disturbed feelings in the abdomen, chest and throat - and was re-living the story in my mind. Then I became aware of each of the different bodily feelings and thoughts, watched them, and things began to 'evaporate'. But there were new emotions like regret, and the wish that I had been equanimous, that it would have been kinder to say nothing. But why is there no awareness earlier, at the very time things are occuring? Wouldn't any new kamma formation already be created during the 'flare-up' of initial emotion. The actual words I said were not wrong speech - though the tone and cadence were evidence of irritation, as was body posture. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30102 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hi Andrew, Andrew: I have also been thinking about James's "two truths" theory in this regard. If you are listening in James (naughty, naughty), can you equate your theory to the conventional/ultimate reality distinction or am I way off beam with this suggestion? James: Hehehe…yes, I am listening in. First, the `two truths' isn't my theory, it has been pondered, analyzed, and explained for the entire history of Buddhism. Second, each school of Buddhism has a slightly different view of these two truths- this is predominately the aspect that separates the various schools. And, of course, each school believes that only they have the right view and that all others are wrong. ;-)) And yes, the two truths relate specifically to the conventional/ultimate reality distinction. My position has been, and continues to be, that for the sake of convenience, the two truths should both be considered true. Why do I have this position? I just realize that the Buddha spoke of the two levels of truth at various times to various audiences and he never spoke of one as being false and one as being true. He spoke of them both as being true. Since he could not lie this is what I have determined. I don't trust my own viewpoint because I am not enlightened and I consider all viewpoints (of the unenlightened) to be absurd. Metta, James 30103 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 op 14-02-2004 06:17 schreef Carl op c7carl@y...: > I read only this: > > Nina: "Citta is one of the four factors that produces rúpa." > > Carl: Is rupa produced? N: yes, some rupas originate from citta. C: I think this is my understanding: > Question: Is anything really real? > Answer: Yes! > > Question: Yes but, is anything really really really real? > Answer: Well, not really! N: No need to argue, but it is best to verify for oneself. How? Only by developing understanding of the present reality, be it nama or rupa. If there is intellectual understanding sati can arise sometimes, though very rarely. It does not matter, so long as we do not try with an idea of self who tries so hard. As you already know, pariyatti conditions patipatti, going along the Path, and finally there can be pativedha, the realization of the truth. Nina. > 30104 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: harsh speech among friends Dear Andrew and Victor, op 14-02-2004 06:14 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > > This is a testament to the power of habits, isn't it. In my case, > harsh speech is definitely to be avoided. N: Victor, the arahat cannot have any akusala. It is just a remnant of accumulated habit. Ven. Bodhi refers to it in a note to the Co to the Caryapitaka. So, with all these things we have to consider the citta that motivates speech. How can we know someone else's citta. And even less the arahat's citta. Now, this should not be an excuse for us, though. The Buddha taught us to cultivate gentle, kind speech, and this is kusala sila. Sila are actions through body and speech. Sometimes we are hearers, and then if there are conditions for kusala citta we can have kind thoughts with compassion for the speaker. We do not necessarily have aversion, but it is difficult to pass the test. Sometimes we are speakers, then we can cultivate gentle, kind speech, pleasant for the hearer. Andrew, today we had to hear harsh speech from my father. His mind is not good with 103 years, and he had a waterfall of reproaches, saying that Lodewijk had left him in a great mess when we went away suddenly, without telling him ahead of time. Now, Lodewijk worked so hard with all the administration of his financial affairs, and all the shopping. The opposite was true. This was a real test, and how difficult to pass it. We talked about similar experiences with our Thai friends. One friend, Lisa (I hope she will be a member) says, yes, her father is her best teacher, because of all his dosa. How we remembered this today. We can learn how much conceit arises: how can *he* do this to *me*. Still he and me, and it can condition dosa. Satipatthana is the only way to pass the test. We have to learn that there are in the absolute sense no persons. It was stressed very much in Thailand that we have to be courageous to keep on developing satipatthana. It is difficult because it has to be in daily life. The matter with my father is only small compared to grief because of a loss, death in the family. I shall try to write more about all my experiences, but I need a lot of time. Nina. 30105 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost Dear Andy, you came when I was away, a belated welcome to you. I do not know your background, but Icaro was referring to the Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma. This deals with all the conditions for the realities in our life. I think Icaro wanted to tell you that instead of trying to get rid of sadness we should understand the conditions for it. op 14-02-2004 10:04 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > ...Or a reading out at the Patthanapali. Is there necessary so many efforts only to get rid of akusala > patterns ? > Mettaya, Ícaro Nina: Only the anagami has eradicated dosa. Sadness or grief is a form of dosa. We should also understand that attachment conditions dosa: when things are not the way we would like them to be there are conditions for aversion. And ignorance is a condiiton; ignorance of the four noble truths, of realities. Understanding conditions even intellectually is helpful. You may like to read, . I write about grief. It is on line, I believe on http://www.abhidhamma.org/ You asked how to sign off a letter, there is no rule. I let it depend on the citta at that moment, I feel very free. Sometimes I may end with a good wish or (in the Buddhist way). Nina. 30106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:minding one's own business. Hi James, excellent reminder! I love this expression and was discussing it with Lodewijk. Great. When there are people in our lives, so much conceit. And we have to develop the Path ourselves. Nina. op 14-02-2004 09:06 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Anyway, a bhikkhu wrote me a > post that asked just one question "How do you practice anatta in your > life?" To be a little ornery (I admit) but to also tell him the > truth, I replied "I mind my own business." (Got in trouble for that > but, oh well ;-) What did I mean? I meant that I don't go around > telling people that they don't have a self or that what they take for > self isn't self. That isn't what Buddhism is about. I focus only on > what I take for self and try to eliminate my desire and attachment to > it. 30107 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:58am Subject: What causes Nibbana ? Friends; What is the cause of Nibbana ? The Conditional Relations: When this is present, that is manifest. When this arises, that also emerges. When this is absent, that is absent. When this ceases, that also ceases. Ignorance causes mental construction. Mental construction causes consciousness. Consciousness causes mind-&-matter. Mind-&-Matter causes the 6 senses. The 6 Senses causes contact. Contact causes feeling. Feeling causes craving. Craving causes clinging. Clinging causes becoming. Becoming causes birth. Birth causes ageing, sickness & death. Ageing, Sickness & Death causes frustration. Frustration causes searching. Searching causes faith. Faith causes joy. Joy causes satisfaction. Satisfaction causes calmness. Calmness causes pleasure. Pleasure causes happiness. Happiness causes concentration. Concentration causes realistic seeing of transience. Seeing transience causes certain knowledge of decay. Knowledge of decay causes disillusion. Disillusion causes detached disgust. Disgust causes mental relinquishing. Release causes ceasing of mental fermentation. Elimination of fermentation eradicate Ignorance. Absence of Ignorance is Stilled Peace. Absence of Ignorance is Serene Bliss. Absence of Ignorance is Nibbana. Source: Samyutta Nikaya II [29-31] The Proximate Cause. All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30108 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:41am Subject: Nama-rupa, Representation & Futility! Hi Eznir ao: Well put (sadhu!): >The presence or 'is-ness' of Things is Consciousness! >When one perceives & conceives the presence of things >the world arises! This IS nama-rupa ('naming-&-forming') Which is: Indivisible; like the two ends of the same stick. Inseparable; like the light from the flame. Which covers all; both internal & external. Which is 1 single continuity of 2 overlapping aspects. When disgusted with all naming-&-forming! When disillusioned with all construction! Seeing the inevitability of transience & decay, one gives it up, surrenders, let it go like one who suddenly realizes the futility of trying to draw in water with a stick ... samahita 30109 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:08am Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Azita, Azita: James, it is my understanding that these 'unnecessary distractions' are to be known too. James: Yes, this is true. But if there become too many distractions it becomes impossible to `know' them all and to know the object of the mindfulness also. This is just common sense; if you want to really know something you have to put your entire mind to it. This is why libraries are quiet, so that there aren't any distractions. Would you try to read a book at a rock concert? ;-)) Of course you could do it, if you try really hard, but how much are you going to get out of the book? Satipatthana is the same way. If you expect to get a lot out of it you can't have too many distractions. Azita: For example,in the noise and bustle of a city, one can still develop understanding of the present moment. James: In my opinion, this would only be possible if you also have a `quiet time' practice of satipatthana as a support. Just like everything, there are progressive steps to this practice. It isn't possible to develop mindfulness in the middle of hustle and bustle if it has never even been developed during quiet times. For example, an analogy that Ken H will appreciate ;-), eventually you can learn to surf huge, violent waves but first you have to conquer the small waves. Azita: by going to the foot of a tree - and getting bitten by ants James: LOL! Oh, I had a horrible experience with ants in Thailand! Obviously one should pick and `ant-free' tree to sit under. ;-) Azita: and 'trying' to do something which is not my accummulations. I tried meditating and it just made me really angry so it was better not to do it. James: I really do believe that anyone can meditate but perhaps you should start with walking meditation, interspersed with short periods of sitting meditation. Sitting meditation, right off the bat, does irritate a lot of people. When I helped to lead meditation retreats at my Buddhist temple I would always start with walking meditation, then move to standing meditation, and finally have sitting meditation. I would make the periods last progressively longer each time. Azita: I want to get to know my accummulations better and to understand those latent tendencies which are so deep and sutle and I believe that I can only do that by living my natural lifestyle, and keeping in mind the 5 precepts, and other things that I learn about Dhamma. James: That's great. As long as you are practicing as much mindfulness in your daily life as possible, and learning about the dhamma, I think that is a good thing. There has to be some amount of effort to really see the present moment or there is no point. And one has to be really honest about where they are and where they need to eventually be. Metta, James 30110 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: What causes Nibbana ? Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, Could you kindly answer the following questions that arise from reading your post 'What causes Nibbana? ' ? With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: What is the cause of Nibbana ? Htoo: 1. Does Nibbana have the cause? > The Conditional Relations: present, arises, absent,ceases, Htoo: 2. What do you mean by 'this' and 'that' here. > Ignorance ....& Death causes frustration. Htoo: 3.Are you citing paticcasamuppada here? > Frustration causes searching.Searching causes faith.Faith causes.. ...eradicate Ignorance. Htoo: 4. Where in Tipitaka say these linkage frustration cause searching, faith, joy,...elimination of ignorance? 5. Does Samyutta Nikaya exactly says this? According to your message, there seems to be an extracycle which leads to Nibbana. I am looking forward to hearing from you. With respect, Htoo Naing 30111 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Rob M --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Michael, > ... > You might be interested in knowing that the concept of ultimate > realities is not explicity included as part of the original > Abhidhamma texts. The explicit focus on paramattha dhammas came at > a > later stage. In other words, "ultimate realities" is not explicitly > discussed in the Suttas or the Abhidhamma. By anybody's definition, > it is not the word of the Buddha. Would you mind expanding on this. Certainly, as I understand it, the Abhidhamma texts deal extensively with 'dhammas/realities' (citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana), in contradistinction to concepts. What is it about the concept of 'ultimate realities' that is not found in the main works of the Abhidhamma pitaka, as you see it? Jon 30112 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:16am Subject: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 07 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator is practising mindfulness exercise on mind and mind states. He can recognizes mind states with greediness and one without greediness. He realizes when a mind state with hatred arises as it arises. And he is able to recognize a mind state without hatred. He also knows when a mind state with delusion arises as it has arisen and when he recognizes it, another mind state arises. At that time he notices that there arises a mind state without delusion. When a slothful mind state arises, he recognizes that mind state after a while and then another mind state without sloth arises. At a time a distracted mind state arises and as soon as he recognizes it there arises another mind state without distraction. He is constantly scrutinizing his mind states with very careful mindfulness as he contemplates on all his mind states. He becomes well calm as he is well concentrated. He notices that there is no distraction at time. He also notices that there is no sloth and torpor. There is no hatred, repentence or anyhting like that. He recognizes that he is free from sensual thought at that time. He has a good faith and he is well confident in his current practice. As he has a clear understanding at that time he notices that there is no ignorance which otherwise would hinder his progress. After checking all these he realizes that he is free of hindrances including ignorance. As this happen, he becomes peaceful, joyous, well tranquilized and well calm. His mind states are frequently on contemplative mind state. As soon as a mind state passes away, another mind state arises contemplating on current mind states. Mind states are reviewing the current situation in mind. His calmness does not distract him at least for a time. As these happen, he suddenly notices that his whole body is covered with a goose-skin and he feels that all hair on his head stand and so do other body hair. He notices that he is joyous and a thrill of joy passes through him, embraces him, encases him. And he sees flushes of light here and there. Joy seems to come to him as flood and sometimes like waves. At a time he feels his body is weightless and he is very light. He feels himself as cotton and at indefinite time he slowly rise from the ground and floating without noticing himself as floating. What he notices is that he is attending his mind state and mind states are constantly passing away. He recognizes whenever a new mind state has arisen. He is well attended and concentrated. He feel peace and ease. He knows happenings in his mind and recognizes all mind states as they have been in his mind. At this time he notices that there has arisen a mind state which is well developed in nature ( mahaggatacitta or higher consciousness ). May you all be able to contemplate on mind and mind states. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30113 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Chrsitine Talking about anger. I think on Thursday, I was angry over my connection to the internet (something to do with incompatible modem). The anger boiled up bc I cannot change with the shop as my wife was out doing something and my children was pestering me. To me that anger became furious. At first, I chided my children fiercely for disturbing me and then later, I did spank my little girl for not listening to my instructions. After it was blown over, I regretted. I reflected and I realised I was conditioned by concepts and not being aware of the rising of namas and rupas. The speed and intensity of such anger is so strong that it blinds me completely. I realise that akusala cittas are indeed strong and just waiting for the right conditions to arise. Ken O 30114 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* Hi Christine and Sukin I agreed, Sukin is indeed a courteous man. When I talk to me in Bkk, I found him a frank and honest person. He is also a person willing to share his dhamma experience with me and he help me find some English dhamma books. I also like to take this opportunity to thank him and Betty for the lunch at the Chinese restuarant (sorry folks take so long to say thanks). Ken O p.s. Jon and Sarah -thanks for the breakfast 30115 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory - Sabhava Hello Jon, Jon: Below is passage from Visuddhi-Magga and its commentary (Nanamole translation). Please see the reference to 'individual essence' (sabhava) in the last sentence of the commentary passage, in the footnote. My reading of that part of the passage is as follows: The experience of visible datum by eye consciousness occurs where the individual essence of visible datum is revealed to eye consciousness by the presence of light. Vsm: And here the illuminating is the revealing of the visible datum according to its individual essence Michael: Sorry to say this, but in my view this is a very poor description. If you think of any object that can impact the visual door it is very likely that different people will perceive that object differently. Imagine a number of people looking at a tree. Some will notice the trunk, others the leaves, while others will notice the tiny ants climbing up the trunk, and so forth. And that initial contact will trigger sensations, perception and mental proliferations, according to the Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18). Now in all those different contacts where is the 'individual essence of that datum'? Now, from the philosophical perspective, a view that there is an individual essence, as I mentioned in my previous post, brings in a metaphysical essentialist standpoint, i.e. "It has also been argued that the term sabhava is used to characterize the own nature of the dhammas or its own unique characteristic. But this poses a problem because it is akin to a metaphysical theory of identity and difference, where sabhava is the unique characteristic not shared with anything else and the universal characteristics (ti-lakkhana) being identified with the common or the shared." In my view the Buddha did not support such a view. If Sarah feels encouraged to buy the Mulamadyamakakarika by Nagarjuna, I suggest that you read the Chapter V - Exposition of Elements, to see how he argues against the possibility of any intrinsic characteristic in the dhammas. Metta Michael 30116 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:21am Subject: "Not Fooled by Concepts" (Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control) Hi, all - In a message dated 2/13/04 9:42:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes with regard to the Buddha having allegedly said that he uses concepts but is not fooled by them: > > Hi, Christine - > > Thank you very much for the following. (BTW, I own the Walshe > translation! ;-) Now we need to hear from some Pali aficionados to determine > which > translation is better. > > With metta, > Howard > ============================ It seems that both translations may be viable. The key Pali word is 'aparamasa'. The question was whether this is better rendered by "not grasped at" or by "not misapprehended". Nyanayiloka's dictionary gives the following: > parámása: 'adherence', attachment, 'misapprehension', is according to > Vis.M. XXII a name for wrong views; in that sense it occurs in Dhs. 1174 ff. - See > sílabbata-parámása. The Pali Text Society dictionary gives the following: Paramasa (p. 421) [para+mrs, but see paramasa] touching, seizing, taking hold of M I.130 (v. l. °masa which reading is probably to be preferred, cp. Trenckner on p. 541); S III.46 (v. l. °masa). -- neg. aparamasa not leading astray, not enticing D I.17 (°to), 202. -- Perhaps we should read paramasa altogether. In fairness, though I prefer the sense of not misapprehending and not being led astray by, and though that is a viable reading according to these two dictionary articles, it does seem that the meaning of not grasping at is the primary one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30117 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Hello Jon, Jon: In the suttas, we find frequent mention of 'dhammas' and of dhammas classified as the five aggregates (pancakhandha), the sense-bases (ayatanas), the elements (dhatu); in the Abhidhamma dhammas are generally classified as citta, cetasika and rupa [and nibbana]. The (later) term 'paramattha' is used to refer collectively to these dhammas and the truths about them; nothing more and nothing less. Michael: The reference to 'later' is important. It is always good to stress that paramatha is a late term in the Theravada teachings. And that brings another aspect to this analysis, if paramatha was so crucial why didn't the Buddha refer to the khandhas or dhammas as paramatha? Why would he have omitted something that is so crucial according to later commentators? Jon: The importance of a correct intellectual understanding of what is encompassed by the various terms aggregates (khandha), sense-bases (ayatanas), elements (dhatu), and citta, cetasika and rupa cannot be underestimated. The Buddha did not expound at length on these for nothing! His underlying message to we beginners, to my reading, is that there is no correspondence between conventional notions of things, people, or places (= collectively, the 'conventional world') and these dhammas (the world in the 'ultimate' sense). While each has validity in its own sense (samutti sacca, paramattha sacca), there is no overlap between the two. For example, there is nothing in common *in reality* between conventional eye and the dhamma that is eye-base, between conventional 'things seen' and the dhamma that is visible-object. Likewise, 'table' is not an instance of rupa-khandha, and nor can rupa khandha be found in table. Michael: I see it very differently. The reason why the Buddha expounded at length on the five aggregates is because they are the aggregates of clinging. And clinging is a major obstacle in liberation. The important intellectual understanding is about the clinging nature of the aggregates and not their supposed 'ultimate nature'. I don't see the distinction between the two levels of truth the same way you describe. I don't see much distinction between a being and the khandhas, both are conditioned and compounded phenomena with no true existence but only conditioned existence. Since they are not true existents both can be properly viewed as a concept. But I would not say that they only exist in the mind as a concept. There is an actual phenomena occurring which gives support to a correspondent mental phenomena. Metta Michael 30118 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: What causes Nibbana ? Dear Htoo Naing >1. Does Nibbana have a cause? (Hehehe Htoo is not asleep!) Nibbana is uncaused, unconditioned & unconstructed! Nibbana is ABSENCE of ignorance, lust & aversion. This 'absence' or 'negation' cannot really be called A Cause, which would require 'presence' of something. >2. What do you mean by 'this' and 'that' here. All of them. This Birth causes that Death. etc. This Death causes that Suffering. >3.Are you citing paticcasamuppada here? Yes, yet slightly extended. >4. Where in Tipitaka say these linkage frustration cause > searching, faith, joy,...elimination of ignorance? Anguttara Nikaya. Yet Im currently not in my library. Will dig the exact references out to you later. Yet: They asked the Buddha: What is the effect of Dukkha? He replied: Search &/or Bewilderment! They asked the Buddha: What is the cause of Faith? He replied: Dukkha! Rooted in ignorance this inherent pain & frustration is the cause & condition that drives us towards Nibbana. That baffling point, was what I intended to highlight! The happy, young & rich, intoxicated by party & pleasure need no Buddha before ruin, sickness or depression attacks. Then they start searching for safety & certainty. Maybe even right here on this wonderful WorldWideWeb. May they find solace in the true Dhamma here. : - ] samahita 30119 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:57am Subject: Apology Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi Howard, Thank you for offering an apology. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor (and all) - > > I am writing with regard to my previous reply to you on this thread, > Victor. It was a reply made in anger, and I apologize for that. I do not wish > to change the objective content of that post of mine, which I still think is > valid, but I very much regret the anger that underlay it and that I expressed. > There is no excuse for that. It is wrong speech, I very much regret it, and I > apologize for it. > > With metta, > Howard 30120 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Christine, Re: "comments about anger in general", I recommend looking for the desire behind it. Larry 30121 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Ken O, Instead of just waiting for the right conditions to arise, why not start meditation practice and developing the brahmavihara for your own benefit and the benefit of your children, so you won't have to regret again? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Chrsitine > > Talking about anger. I think on Thursday, I was angry over my > connection to the internet (something to do with incompatible modem). > The anger boiled up bc I cannot change with the shop as my wife was > out doing something and my children was pestering me. To me that > anger became furious. At first, I chided my children fiercely for > disturbing me and then later, I did spank my little girl for not > listening to my instructions. After it was blown over, I regretted. > I reflected and I realised I was conditioned by concepts and not > being aware of the rising of namas and rupas. The speed and > intensity of such anger is so strong that it blinds me completely. I > realise that akusala cittas are indeed strong and just waiting for > the right conditions to arise. > > > Ken O 30122 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:45am Subject: bodily intimation, more info Here is more info taken from the Dhamma Issues, as translated from Thai: When there is the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a meaning, there is no rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti. Explanation of the reasons for this conclusion: I: The Atthasåliní, Expositor I, Book I, Part III, Discourse on Doors, states: ³Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called Œintimation¹.² In the Paramattha Mañjuså, the Mahå-Tíka of the Visuddhimagga, in the explanation, by rúpakkhandha, we read: ³...it is called intimation, viññatti, because it makes known. What does it make known? An intention. Through means of what? Through the body. In what way? By the movement of the body in that way.² Thus it is clear that the rúpa of bodily intimation is a rúpa originated by citta which has the intention of conveying a meaning through the body. Whereas, when one stands, walks, sits or lies down naturally, without there being citta which wishes to convey a meaning, there is no rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, but there are only vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability [2] originating from citta that merely intends to move. II: The rúpa that is intimation, viññatti rúpa, must be different from the rúpas of changeability, the vikåra rúpas, even though in some texts the three vikåra rúpas are classified together with the two viññatti rúpas as five vikåra rúpas. Viññatti rúpa is different from the vikåra rúpas, because viññatti rúpa arises and falls away together with the citta that wishes to convey a meaning by it [3]. ... It is stated in the Visuddhimagga, (Description of the Aggregates, Ch XIV, 61, kåya viññatti): ²...this is called Œkåya-viññatti¹ because it is the cause of the intimating (viññåpana) of intention by means of bodily motion, and because also oneself can know this through the body, in other words, through that bodily motion...² This means that citta wishes to express a meaning by means of that rúpa, no matter whether someone else understands it or not. There may also be rúpas originating from the citta which does not intend to convey a meaning, when one moves the body naturally while standing, walking, sitting or lying down. If others think that a meaning is being conveyed, that is due to their own thinking and does not concern the rúpa of bodily intimation. We read in the ³Atthasåliní² (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, Derived Material Qualities, 323) that there are thirtytwo cittas which produce rúpas that support and strengthen the postures and also the rúpas which are intimation. These cittas are: mind-door adverting-consciousness, manodvåråvajjana citta, twelve akusala cittas, eight mahå-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere), eight mahå-kiriyacittas, smile-producing consciousness (of the arahat), hasituppåda citta, and two abhiññå cittas (of supernatural power). Therefore, when one only intends to move the body in assuming the different postures, without the wish to convey a meaning, citta is the condition for the arising of groups of rúpa which are not accompanied by intimation, viññatti rúpa. Footnotes: 2. The three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability are: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. 3. Rúpa lasts seventeen moments of citta, but the rúpa of intimation is not concrete matter but a change in rúpas as we shall see. The rúpa of intimation lasts only one moment of citta, whereas the vikåra rúpas last seventeen moments of citta. ***** Nina. 30123 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Hi Larry, op 14-02-2004 19:43 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: I take it that bodily intimation is confined > to the body and doesn't include other rupas in the world that convey > an intimation, such as a traffic sign. N: A traffic sign is a concept, it is not one of the 28 rupas, as listed in the Dhsg. L:What about sign language? N: Such signs are made by means of rupa which is bodily intimation, originated by citta that intends to display a meaning. L: I suppose music is out, but what about dance? N: It depends on the type of dance. It can be a gesture displaying a meaning. L: Also, it seems to me the two intimations are bound by convention. > What is a meaningful gesture in one culture means something else in > another, or is meaningless. Is this an aspect of rupa without > individual characteristic (sabhava)? N: It does not matter, it is just rupa originated by citta that displays a meaning. You can also make a meaningful gesture to a dog or a bird, telling them that there is food available or that they have to go away or come here. It depends on your intention expressed by such a gesture. If someone else misunderstands it, it concerns his citta, nothing to do with you who displays a meaning by a gesture. Boidily intimation is asabhava rupa anyway. It is a change in the great Elements. Nina. P.S. I will wait with info on verbal intimation until we come to that subject. 30124 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Dear Icaro, op 14-02-2004 22:33 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > Is Tadarammana function deal on directly > with such Rupas ? As the last term on a definite sequence, is correct > identify Tadarammana with a material form of communication ? N: No. Tadarammana cittas are just two more moments of vipaka which hang on to the sense object experienced during the cittas of that sense-door process which comes here to an end. They arise only in the sensuous planes of existence, kaama, not in the brahma planes where people are born who see the danger of sense objects. Also, they only concern the plane of citta (note: plane, bhumi, of citta is not the same as plane of existence) which is kamavacara citta. There are four planes of citta: cittas of the sense-sphere, rupa jhana cittas, arupa jhanacittas, lokuttara cittas. Kamma produce those moments of vipaka because there are conditions to hang on to sense objects. But they only arise when a sense-door process is a complete process. When they arise in a sense-door process they also arise in the subsequent mind-door process which experiences that sense-object through the mind-door. In that case there are thus vipakacittas experiencing an object through the mind-door. Nina. 30125 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hello Larry, Thanks Larry - my problem is that the anger has appeared, caused behaviour (by thought, word or deed) and largely passed before I am even 'aware' of its presence and that it is 'anger'. It is like a sudden flood in a river. No chance to prepare or even know it has arrived. Enquiring, looking over what happened later, is just me considering what I 'remember' as the trigger, and as the sequence of events. It may not be accurate at all. The same with any strong emotion. In any analyses, sure, one looks to see the root causes - but they are usually embedded in various stories. I'm not sure how thinking one knows what desire caused anger to arise one time, will help awareness arise at an earlier stage of the process the next time - the instances are so different. I call it anger - as if it is clearly one variety of emotion - but, usually, there are many ingredients. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Re: "comments about anger in general", I recommend looking for the > desire behind it. > > Larry 30126 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hello Ken O, Thank you for sharing this story - it brings back memories of when my own children were smaller. You are right - 'the speed and intensity of such anger is so strong that it blinds us completely' and this was the point of my post. How to change/improve the situation.... It is the lack of awareness in the early stages, when perhaps it could be defused that 'might' be the key - I wonder how to 'wake-up' to, have some insight into, what is happening in order to 'divert the flood of anger' and change the course of what follows. It is thinking 'I am angry' or 'They are irritating me'. I think it is the not seeing, the not understanding about anatta that allows it to continue. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Chrsitine > > Talking about anger. I think on Thursday, I was angry over my > connection to the internet (something to do with incompatible modem). > The anger boiled ?p b? I cannot change with the shop as my wife was > out doing something and my children was pestering me. To me that > anger became furious. At first, I chided my children fiercely for > disturbing me and then later, I did spank my little girl for not > listening to my instructions. After it was blown over, I regretted. > I reflected and I realised I was conditioned by concepts and not > being aware of the rising of namas and rupas. The speed and > intensity of such anger is so strong that it blinds me completely. I > realise that akusala cittas are indeed strong and just waiting for > the right conditions to arise. > > > Ken O 30127 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Christine, This is a good subject to focus on I think. Why does anger arise? Rather than going into a deep analysis of the root factors, mula, I think it would be simpler to just say: habit. We are accustomed to thinking with a defiled mind so it doesn't surprise or shock us when defilements arise. By the time we have noticed them, they have already proliferated to a great extent and the damage is already done. However, the difference between the Buddhist and the non- Buddhist is that the Buddhist is striving to change this habit and work toward a higher consciousness: a consciousness which supports insight. So, how do you break bad habits? Develop good habits. The Buddha taught five methods which one can use to stop unwholesome thoughts after they arise. And the Buddha realized that these thoughts can be very powerful so he gave successive `treatments' to use. If the first one doesn't work, use the next one and so forth until the negative thought(s) (and accompanying emotion) is gone: 1.Reflect on a different object which is wholesome 2.Consider the disadvantages of the thought 3.Don't pay attention to the thought 4.Reflect on the removal of the source of the thought 5.Mentally beat down the thought The sutta and commentary notes can be found at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel021.html Metta, James ps. Meditation practice will help to notice when these types of thoughts arise, and thus allow one to take action, but it won't eliminate unwholesome thoughts completely until one is enlightened. 30128 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 08 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has been practising his mindfulness meditation which is concentrated on his own mind. 'He' notices that there are different mind states happen in a sitting meditation. He becomes aware of changing of mind states as he has long been practising on his mind properly. When he feels that he is well concentrated and his mind states are not of sensual and related complex and complicated things, he tries to check whether these states are in line with absorptive mind states or jhana cittas. When there are ten characteristics of mind state called jhana citta, he is said to be in 1st jhana citta or 1st material absorption. He notes that a well developed mind has arisen. Even though he is in his 1st jhana or absorptive state, he is aware of mind components that is he is not ignorant. This is totally different from simple jhanic state or absorptive state. He has been contemplating on mind and mind states so he has a clear understanding of mind states. No one can stay in jhana indefinitely. Here this statement needs careful attention otherwise unnecessary queries may arise. If someone who is expert in jhana matter, he can stay in jhana as long as he wants. I said here they do not stay in jhana indefinitely. They may stay for a day or a week. Or may stay an hour or two. At exit, other routine mind states that are what usually arise in kama bhumi or sensual sphere have to arise as he is no more in jhana at exit. When back to sensual domain, there are possibilities that he may be distracted from his intended object even though he has well experienced. When he has been distrated and after a while he notices that he has been distracted. Then distracted mind states stop to exist and attentive mind state arises. He notes that an undeveloped mind state has arisen and then passes away. May you all practise contemplation on mind and mind states. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30129 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bodily intimation, more info "This means that citta wishes to express a meaning by means of that rúpa, no matter whether someone else understands it or not. There may also be rúpas originating from the citta which does not intend to convey a meaning, when one moves the body naturally while standing, walking, sitting or lying down. If others think that a meaning is being conveyed, that is due to their own thinking and does not concern the rúpa of bodily intimation." Hi Nina, Regarding "body language", if someone frowns just because they are unhappy, that is not bodily intimation, but if someone else (an actor, for example) frowns wishing to convey "I am unhappy", that _is_ bodily intimation. Correct? Larry 30130 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Nina: "A traffic sign is a concept, it is not one of the 28 rupas, as listed in the Dhsg." Hi Nina, When you say a traffic sign is a concept do you mean a traffic sign is a word, or do you mean a traffic sign is a mental formation (sankhata). When I wave "goodbye" with my hand that is also a mental formation. You won't find "hand" among the 28 rupas either. Larry 30131 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Christine, Try analyzing anyway. You may be surprised. Every situation is unique and so every anger is unique, but I have found that the desires behind them are rather simple and basic. No need for an elaborate story. That also arises from desire. Larry --------------------- Christine: Hello Larry, Thanks Larry - my problem is that the anger has appeared, caused behaviour (by thought, word or deed) and largely passed before I am even 'aware' of its presence and that it is 'anger'. It is like a sudden flood in a river. No chance to prepare or even know it has arrived. Enquiring, looking over what happened later, is just me considering what I 'remember' as the trigger, and as the sequence of events. It may not be accurate at all. The same with any strong emotion. In any analyses, sure, one looks to see the root causes - but they are usually embedded in various stories. I'm not sure how thinking one knows what desire caused anger to arise one time, will help awareness arise at an earlier stage of the process the next time - the instances are so different. I call it anger - as if it is clearly one variety of emotion - but, usually, there are many ingredients. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Hi Christine, Re: "comments about anger in general", I recommend looking for the desire behind it. Larry 30132 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hello All I see sudden outbursts of anger as the greatest danger on the path. I have consciouly been cultivating Upekkha in the belief, probably mistaken, the equanimity shield me in a necessary and hopefully temporary way from the stimula that have brought on my outbursts in the past. I call them "regrettable incidents" and have thankfully seen them decrease in number and intensity over the last year or so. Reading Ayyka Khema the other day, I was interested when she said that though we know greed to be undesirable, as one of the hindrances, its presence in our lives is only removed by the most advanced of practicioners so it might be best to accept its presence and at least be sure that it is directed in as wholesome a direction as possible. I wonder if the same can be said of the energy of anger within us and ask, as a beginner, whether directing it in a skillful direction might be possible? With Metta Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I wonder, as Howard's experience of anger is so close, if anyone > would have some comments about anger in general? I would be > interested in anyone's views on my 'incident'. > You see, yesterday I visited some relatives and a similar thing > happened where anger overcame me because of a remark someone made, > which revealed a rather prejudiced view they had of another group. > I said something quite firmly but politely (which I considered > necessary). Tenseness was evident, the atmosphere could have been > cut with a knife. Within ten minutes or so, amends were made, hugs > all round, casual chatting re-started. But, driving home later I > still felt disturbed feelings in the abdomen, chest and throat - and > was re-living the story in my mind. Then I became aware of each of > the different bodily feelings and thoughts, watched them, and things > began to 'evaporate'. But there were new emotions like regret, and > the wish that I had been equanimous, that it would have been kinder > to say nothing. > But why is there no awareness earlier, at the very time things are > occuring? Wouldn't any new kamma formation already be created during > the 'flare-up' of initial emotion. The actual words I said were not > wrong speech - though the tone and cadence were evidence of > irritation, as was body posture. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30133 From: Andrew Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: Control || No Control Hello James Thanks for clarifying this: J: yes, the two truths relate specifically to > the conventional/ultimate reality distinction. > > My position has been, and continues to be, that for the sake of > convenience, the two truths should both be considered true. Why do I > have this position? I just realize that the Buddha spoke of the two > levels of truth at various times to various audiences and he never > spoke of one as being false and one as being true. He spoke of them > both as being true. Andrew: I'm giving you my vote on this one - even though you're not collecting them! In my sporadic study of Dhamma over time, I have obviously formed the impression that ultimate realities were to be considered "reality" and conventional realities were to be considered "illusion". No doubt, this stems more from my reading of others' posts than from what they may have actually said! Checking the Introduction to my Abhidhammattha Sangaha, I see the English expressions "ultimate truth" and "conventional truth" in use; the Pali is "sacca" meaning "truth". So the distinction is not between reality and non-reality, the distinction is between truths of a different nature. It may be (as I think Icaro suggested) that it's a good tactic or trick to try and view conventional truth as illusory, perhaps because this reminds us that there is another level of truth to what we are getting attracted to or repulsed from - and when we realise this, akusala states tend to subside. But if we go too far with this, do we end up denying the truth in conventional matters? I need to keep thinking about all this and testing it in my daily life. With all this Dhamma stuff, sometimes I think I am at university level. Next moment, I'm back in kindergarten! Fun, isn't it? Best wishes Andrew 30134 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV 61 (1 of 4) "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV 61. 14. Bodily intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated air element that causes the occurrence of moving forward, etc., which mode and alteration are a condition for the stiffening, upholding, and moving of the conascent material body. [448] Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of bodily excitement. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air element. But it is called 'bodily intimation' (kaaya-vi~n~natti) because it is the cause of the intimating (vi~n~naapana) of intention by means of bodily excitement, and because it is itself intimatable through the body, in other words, through that bodily excitement. Moving forward, etc., should be understood to occur owing to the movement of the [kinds of matter] that are temperature-born, etc., which are interlocked with the consciousness-born kinds moved by that [intimation].27 (See Dhs. 636) 30135 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Vism.XIV 61 (2 of 4) Vism. XIV 61 Note 27. 'It is the mode and the alteration of what? Of consciousness-originated primary elements that have the air-element in excess of capability. What is that capability? It is the state of being consciousness-born and the state of being derived matter. Or alternatively, it can be taken as the mode of alteration of the air element. If that is so, then intimation is illogical as derived matter, for there is no derived matter with a single primary as its support, since "matter derived from the four great primaries" (M.i,53) is said. That is not wrong. Alteration of one of the four is that of all four, as with wealth shared among four. And excess of air element in a material group (kalaapa) does not contradict the words "of the air element"; and excess is in capability, not in quantity, otherwise their inseparability would be illogical. According to some it is that of the air element only. In their opinion the state of derived matter is inapplicable (durupapaada) to intimation, since the alteration of one is not that of all. But this [air element] is apprehended by mind-door impulsion that is next to the non-intimating [apprehension] that is next to the apprehension of the appearance of motion in the movement of the hands, and so on. There is a certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion. And the apprehension of the former is next to the apprehension of the latter. How is that to be known? By the apprehension of intention. For no apprehension of intention such as "He is getting this done, it seems" is met with in the case of trees' movements, etc., which are devoid of intention. But it is met with in the case of hand movements and so on. Therefore there is a certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion, and it is known as the "intimator of the intention". Also it is known by inference that the apprehension of the alteration is next to the apprehension of the appearance thus: The intimator intimates the meaning to be intimated only when it is apprehended as a cause, not merely as present. For they say accordingly: Sounds that have entered no objective field do not awaken any kind of meaning; and also beings merely recognized as such communicate no meanings either. 30136 From: Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 (2 of 4) "The intimator intimates the meaning to be intimated only when it is apprehended as a cause, not merely as present." Hi Nina, A qualm: if the intimation is an activation of only primary elements, how is it apprehended, by touch? Also, this suggests that the intimation has to be apprehended at least as an intentional intimation. Seems like we are on the outskirts of convention here. Larry 30137 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:36pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Christine, ----------------------- C: > But, driving home later I still felt disturbed feelings in the abdomen, chest and throat - and was re-living the story in my mind. ------------------------- I was right; they ARE putting something in the water in South East Queensland! First, I was obsessing about past mistakes (crying over spilt milk) then Andrew was moaning on and on about some little thing he might have said wrong -- now it's happened to you! We should head up north! I wonder if Azita would like us at her place. ---------------------- C: > The actual words I said were not wrong speech - though the tone and cadence were evidence of irritation, as was body posture. ---------------------- I think I know what you mean; we might think we are fooling people with carefully chosen words but we're only fooling ourselves. I would say that, even if we could fake the tone, cadence and body posture, we still couldn't fool anyone who knows us from old. Just suppose you and I were to have a good old `hate session' about those reactionary #######s who are running our country at the moment; or we were to gossip about some absent friends (unlikely, I know, but just suppose). After that, you would know my propensity for dosa. Now, suppose you were to tell me you enjoyed fishing or `cane toad golf' (infinitely unlikely, but just suppose). If I were to reply, carefully, smilingly and with perfect poise; "Oh, that's nice for you, although I can't say I approve," you wouldn't be fooled; the dosa would be as plain as the nose on my face. :o) Kind regards, Ken H "The most important thing in business is sincerity – if you can fake that, you've got it made." (Anon.) 30138 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Victor, ---------------------- KH:> > But I think it is clear, from the suttas, that many ariyans attained enlightenment without ever practising jhana. >> V: > Any reference to the discourse to support your claim? ----------------------- Yes, there are some I know of which I'll be glad to give. After all, there may be some newcomers to dsg who have not already seen them a dozen times :-) In one post (12371) Nina has given the following Suttanta references: Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Nidana vagga, II, 119: Susima Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses (c) In the same post (also found in the Useful posts file under `dry insight') Nina has given a concise summary of the above suttas as well as quotes from the Abhidhamma-pittaka and commentaries. Needless to say, it is well worth reading again. Kind regards, Ken H 30139 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken H and all, Thank you for the reference. I couldn't find the discourses: Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation and Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses on internet or in book. Anyone knows the link or book title to find them? This is what I found: Samyutta Nikaya XII.70 Susima Sutta About Susima http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html Here is the Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's note: Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening. Discourses mentioned in the note: Anguttara Nikaya IX.44 Paññavimutti Sutta Released Through Discernment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-044.html Anguttara Nikaya IX.43 Kayasakkhi Sutta Bodily Witness http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-043.html Anguttara Nikaya IX.45 Ubhatobhaga Sutta (Released) Both Ways http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-045.html Let me quote Anguttara Nikaya IX.44 Paññavimutti Sutta Released Through Discernment [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > ---------------------- > KH:> > But I think it is clear, from the suttas, that many ariyans > attained enlightenment without ever practising jhana. >> > > V: > Any reference to the discourse to support your claim? > ----------------------- > > Yes, there are some I know of which I'll be glad to give. After > all, there may be some newcomers to dsg who have not already seen > them a dozen times :-) > > In one post (12371) Nina has given the following Suttanta references: > > Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Nidana vagga, II, 119: > Susima > > Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation > > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses (c) > > In the same post (also found in the Useful posts file under `dry > insight') Nina has given a concise summary of the above suttas as > well as quotes from the Abhidhamma-pittaka and commentaries. > Needless to say, it is well worth reading again. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 30140 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Victor Hmm, I am not waiting for the right conditions to arise bc the conditions were righted itself to arise, there is no need to me to wait ;-). By the way, you have not reply my earlier mail ;-). Victor, if one can control one's immaterial aggregates, then I will meditate, if not till then, it will be not be beneficial. James said <> And I forget to tell James that habit is also a root cause (accumulation and latency[for the three unwholesome roots]), everything must be done eradicating the root cause. The chinese said, cutting the grass one must clear the roots, or not winds blows, the grass grows again. Ken O 30141 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: "Not Fooled by Concepts" (Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control) Hi Howard, (Christine, Victor & All), S:I’d also started to check further, but had no time to post - I see we have become the Pali afficionados here;-);-) Here’s another translation, ed by Max Mueller (PTS): ...... 52. 'Just, Citta, as from a cow comes milk, and from the milk curds, and from the curds butter, and from the butter ghee, and from the ghee junket; but when it is milk it is not called curds, or butter, or, or junket ; and when it is curds it is not called by any of the other names; and so on- [202] 5 3. ' Just so, Citta, when any one of the three modes of personality is going on, it is not called by the name of the other. For these, Citta, are merely names, expressions turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathàgata (one who has won the truth) makes use indeed, but is not led astray by them[45].' The Pali for the last sentence is: [Imà.m kho citta lokasamattà lokaniruttiyo lokavohàrà lokapattattiyo yàhi tathàgato voharati aparàmasanti.] [long footnote 45]’........ But the abstract term is only a convenient form of expression. There never was any personality, as a separate entity, all the time.’ ***** S:To repeat part of the quote I gave recently from the commentary to the Kathavatthu, ch 1: “Thus it is said: The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely,the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e known). Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is true and is by way of world convention. Highest meaning discourse expression is also true and, as such, characteristic of things (as they are). There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates, and so forth, and the popular taching consisting of ‘butter-jar,’ and so forth. The Exalted One does not, indeed, overrun consistency. Hence, on the mere expression “there is the person who,” must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept. The remaining meanings are clear everywhere. The controversy on ‘person’ is ended.” ***** I’m sure the controversies on DSG won’t be ended so easily however;-) Looking at the word ‘aparaamaasa’ more carefully as you have, I’d like to add a little more: --- upasaka@a... wrote: H: >......The key Pali word > is > 'aparamasa'. The question was whether this is better rendered by "not > grasped > at" or by "not misapprehended". > Nyanayiloka's dictionary gives the following: > > > parámása: 'adherence', attachment, 'misapprehension', is according to > > Vis.M. XXII a name for wrong views; in that sense it occurs in Dhs. > 1174 ff. - See > > sílabbata-parámása. .... S: Dhs 1174 [First text in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, transl by Mrs Rhys Davids, PTS] ..... “The Group on Perversion (paraamaasa-gocchakam)* Which are the states that are The Contagion of speculative opinion? In this connexion, What is ‘perversion as speculative opinion’? Answer as for the ‘Intoxicant of speculative opinion’, viz: ‘to hold that the world is eternal, or that it is not eternal’, etc.....”[etc for other perverted views] * Paraamaasa is, according to Buddhaghosa, employed to mea para + aa +masati , to touch-upon-as other, ie in a way inverse to the right way, wrong-minded procedure. ***** H: > The Pali Text Society dictionary gives the following: > > Paramasa (p. 421) [para+mrs, but see paramasa] .... S: Here it is referring to this second entry here: [the first one in the hard ed is paraamasa and the second more common one referred to is here as paraamaasa]: .... Also from PTS dict: Paramasa (p. 421) [para+mrs, cp. Epic Sk. paramarsa being affected by; as philos. term "reflection"] touching, contact, being attached to, hanging on, being under the influence of, contagion (Dhs. trsl. 316). In Asl. 49, Bdhgh analyses as parato amasantiti paramasa: p. means "they handle dhamma's as other" (than what they really are, e. g. they transgress the real meaning of anicca etc. and say nicca). Hence the renderings in Asl. trs. "Reversion," in Dialogues III.28, 43, etc. "perverted" (paramasami paramattha) -- S III.46, 110; A II.42 (sacca°); III.377 (silabbata°), 438 (id.); V.150 (sanditthi°); D III.48; Th 1, 342; It 48 (itisacca°, cp. idansaccabhinivesa under kayagantha); Pug 22; Dhs 381, 1003, 1175 (ditthi° contagion of speculative opinion), .... H: > In fairness, though I prefer the sense of not misapprehending and > not > being led astray by, and though that is a viable reading according to > these > two dictionary articles, it does seem that the meaning of not grasping > at is the > primary one. .... S: In context, I think it clearly means ‘not misapprehending and not being led astray by’ as you (Chris and others) originally indicated. ‘Not grasping’ refers to not grasping wrong views as I read it. Let me add one more of these references I followed from a sutta we’ve been quoting from recently in Khandhasamyutta, SN 22:85 Yamaka, Bodhi transl: “Yet, although he was admonished by the bhikkhus in this way, the Venerable Yamaka still obstinately *grasped that pernicious view*, adhered to it, and declared: “As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed is annihilated and perishes with the breakup of the ody and does not exist after death.” Evampi kho àyasmà yamako tehi bhikkhåhi vuccamàno tatheva ta.n *pàpaka.n di.t.thagata.n thàmasà paràmassa* abhinivissa voharati "tathàhaü bhagavatà dhammaü desitaü àjànàmi yathà khãõàsavo bhikkhu kàyassa bhedà ucchijjati vinassati na hoti parammaraõàti. " Here the reference to paraamasa is to ‘perverted’ (see dict entry above for Siii110] or to ‘grasping a wrong view’. Metta, Sarah p.s if any 'real' Pali afficionados have anything further to add or correct, we'd be glad;-) ======================== 30142 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi James, Azita and all, James I hope you don't mind me responding to you here. > Azita: James, it is my understanding that these 'unnecessary > distractions' are to be known too. > > James: Yes, this is true. But if there become too many distractions > it becomes impossible to `know' them all and to know the object of > the mindfulness also. This is just common sense; if you want to > really know something you have to put your entire mind to it. This > is why libraries are quiet, so that there aren't any distractions. > Would you try to read a book at a rock concert? ;-)) Of course you > could do it, if you try really hard, but how much are you going to > get out of the book? Satipatthana is the same way. If you expect to > get a lot out of it you can't have too many distractions. Sukin: I also see at the end of this post that you talk about "effort" and being "honest about where one is and where one need to eventually be". I am going to make some observations, hope you don't mind if they are assuming, please correct me then. As a general comment I would like first to state two things; 1. All realities are to be known, and that they can be known only when they are experienced, which is in the `present' moment. 2. In reality, there is just this present moment. Any idea of time, place and `effort' on `self's' part is just mental projection. Also, I see as a very important difference between your and my understanding, is that you are inclined to view `knowing' as `knowing penetratingly' or at least deeply enough. Whereas I see it as a matter of development, as starting from a very weak but important level, which is `intellectual understanding', pariyatti. To me the panna which understands directly the Tilakkhana, is the same mental factor having been developed from this very basic level. As a consequence, you seem to see a gap between `study' and practice. And so you are lead to believe that a deliberate effort to bridge the gap is needed. I on the other hand, seeing `intellectual understanding' and `insight' as being the gradual development of the same mental factor, panna, have no particular need to force `practice', though I admit the distinction as well. Of course this goes along with the understanding about `conditionality', that *no* dhamma can be made to arise at will. I realize that you too believe in conditions, only that you see `formal meditation' as being part of those set of conditions. As mentioned above, I see it as a mind projected activity which involves not only an idea of `self', but also time and place. Ignorance is the one and only enemy to understanding. We project "things to do" in order to get rid of ignorance, but this may actually be the product of that very same ignorance. As I said, to me sati and panna starts from the basic level. We can be mindful of gross manifestations of anger and attachment for instance, or we may have an understanding of seeing and visible object or know heat and cold. This may all be on the `conceptual' level and the important thing is, this is to be *known* too. These concepts are after all grounded on actual experiences. Can we deny the reality of seeing, hearing and thinking? It would be absurd to doubt their existence on the level of view at least, no!? It is important to understand that the `practice' starts from here. Know reality as reality (call it paramattha or not) and concept as concept. If the practice is right, then there is no idea of wanting the experience to be anything other than what it is. If concepts are not known, then there is no end to where it can lead us. If we have a different view about what the practice is supposed to be and how to come about it, then we are indeed hindering the development!! This, James, I think is an important point to consider. If one thinks along the lines that the mind has to be prepared, for example, practice sila in order that no hindrances can come in the way of sati, then indeed one is limiting the scope of wisdom and hence opportunity for practice. This may also be part of the reason why you dismiss the idea of the Path factors as being mental concomitants at the moment of Path consciousness and instead believe that they are something to be developed separately. I can understand why you stress on being honest with oneself, you may probably be put off by claims about `anatta' which you see as not being a consequence of direct insight, so why talk as if one `knows'?! I hope you now see at least the basis of such assertions. Isn't it being honest when one knows that one's understanding is only intellectual? Your comparison of the practice of mindfulness with the Rock concert and library scenario is I think, not right. In both above situations the underlying struggle revolves around lobha. Ignorance is not a problem for the person who wants to study a `subject'. Panna is not necessarily involved, the ability to attention and retain and subsequently think logically based on accumulated information, is primarily the work of sanna and manasikara. Ignorance and what follows from it, is the noise which goes with us everywhere. And this is what we want to get rid of. The correct intellect view can at least show us when it is that we are adding to the noise instead of lessening it. As always my posts tend to be very long, so I'll end this one here. Metta, Sukin. Ps: I just remembered about your query as to why dreams seem so real and this being different from `thinking' when one is awake. My guess is that during dreaming there is *just* thinking, uninterrupted by other sense door experience. In waking hours, the thinking is alternating with sense door experiences and so it appears indistinct compared. What do you think? 30143 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Htoo (and Bhikkhu Samahita), S:We were laying out the map and discussing the route together when I got a little side-tracked;-)Thank you for your kind comments. --- htootintnaing wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Nama dhamma and rupa dhamma have to arise if conditions favour. So > does in case of pannindriya cetasika. > > Now I have to draw you to another idea so that we can understand > more. Panna in accumulated form arise from three source. Sutamaya > panna, cintamaya panna, and bhavanamaya panna. I think you already > know all about these. .... S: So far so good. There has to be the right hearing and considering (intellectual panna) before direct panna which knows namas and rupas can develop and eventually become an indriya (faculty). I don’t think we should confused suttamaya or cintamaya with scientific or other kinds of knowledge. Here we are talking about knowledge of realities (paramattha dhammas). .... <...> H: > Arahatta Magga Panna at the moment is the highest now. This Panna is > for all who want to get through the samsara. Other higher Panna are > the matter of choice. .... S: Ah, now before we both agreed that all dhammas are anatta, not in anyone’s control. Isn’t this choice reintroducing an idea of self and control again? Also, as we’re laying out the map, let’s not be too concerned about the Arahants’ panna for now;-) .... H: > Right. Now we start a pace. > > Arahatta Magga Nanna has to attained through bhavanamaya panna. > However, this is only possible ( ONLY POSSIBLE ) with the aid of The > Great beings Sammasambuddhas. > > I mean here 'aid'. This does not mean in the pacchima bhava or final > life in the whole samsara. > > One has to understand all dhamma once in a life as heard through some > Sammasambuddhas. > > As one heard in a life, they may like dhamma as soon as they see > wherever they are ( in the samsara ). .... S: Agreed, ..... H: > So, I made pushing to concentration. This does not necessarily mean > without panna. Panna has to involve all the time. .... S: Why the ‘pushing to concentration’? I don’t follow the logic here. .... H: > If not heard through the aid of one of Sammasambuddha, no one will > develop Arahatta Panna however hard they try. .... S: ..And if they have heard with this aid, are you sure it is the ‘trying’ that will help? Think of the Nava suit about the chickens and eggs or the Ogha sutta (first sutta in SN) about crossing the floods which Ken H has just been referring to: [Ken H: If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and try to cross the flood?] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have discussed above. Sammasambuddhas are needed in Samsara. > There are many arising. > > Another point ( side point ) is breaking and not breaking precept. If > one never killed any being in his whole life, he might be said to be > free of Akusala in terms of killing. But there are two people. One > avoided killing. Another did not kill. Effect will not be the same. > This point shoud be drawn out and should be separate discussion. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with these points and that it would be good for a separate discussion. Pls say more. In the same way, when I do my Tai chi or yoga exercise, there is a lot of strong concentration involved, otherwise I’d be forgetting my movements and falling over. However, concentration which is not obviously unwholesome (such as in killing ) does not make it wholesome. Unless there is panna which understands the paramattha dhamma (in development of satipatthana) or which understands the object of samatha and how it conditions the mind to be calm in a wholesome way at that very moment, or is co-arising with dana or sila, it is bound to be unwholesome. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Wise and unwise concentration? Concentration is concentration at a > single moment. It does not need to be wise or unwise. Its function is > to fix at a point, to fix at a direction. > When concentration become Samma Samadhi, you may say it as wise > concentration but still it is concentration. Wise and unwise is > function of Pannindriya cetasika. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: This is all true, but there is still a big distinction between wholesome and unwholesome concentration (when arising in the javana). Panna and samadhi condition each other. In the same way lobha and akusala concentration condition each other. So the samma and the akusala concentration have different characteristics to be known. .... ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Do you mean I am wasting time, time of other people, and creating the > wrong journey? The journey has not even started. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mean, we’d better make sure we’re on the right journey. The wrong journey is one started and followed with an idea of ‘self’ or ‘trying’. The path has to be right from the start. Others have been discussing ‘using self to get rid of self’. This is a commonly held idea. However, any moments with the wrong idea of self take us on the wrong track or journey. If progress on the right track is made, it is despite these diversions or U-turns, not because of them. ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please tell me your destination. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Good (and difficult) question! As soon as I have any idea about destination in terms of insights or nibbana, I find it’s a condition for attachment. So these days, I just consider the destination as the understanding of the paramattha dhammas arising to be known right now. ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: Ah, but we have to keep checking `the tract' as we lay out > the map. > Let's check we're plotting the same route together - after > all, > there's only One Way. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: But have to individualize. Each Arahat goes each. > Paccatamvedhitabbo Vinnuhi'ti. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: We all have different accumulations (different carita touched on in the Satipatthana sutta), but the Way, the understanding of dhammas as not self is the same for all regardless. *We* don’t have to do anything. Namas and rupas are arising and falling all the time and can be known as they appear to panna right now, one at a time. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Actually the map has not been spread out. Yes there is no > meditator. No one is meditating. All these are in the map itself > which will come out finally. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Let’s continue the discussions and spreading out of the map. I also liked Bhikkhu Samahita’s comments here (post 30094): Bhikkhu S:>So the `personal entity' we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy the experience is merely a mental construct, an idea, a concept, & not a reality … The passive impersonal process of sensing, perception & experiencingcannot thereby be `instrumental' for neither creating nor inferring any `being in existence' or "substance in existence" !!! "'I' am not, just because there is experience." "'World' is neither, just because there is experience." " What there IS is momentary Experience. No more is Fact!" The fact of this fundamental `selflessness' "substancelessness" is far the most essential core of the Buddha-Dhamma. Outmost important to grasp yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby difficult & somewhat `nasty' to comprehend.< ***** Htoo, I look forward to your further helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 30144 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 0:20am Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, > The content of the two suttas was as follows (hope no odd sysmbols): > > Sense control > -> > Virtue > -> > Right concentration > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > and > > Virtuous ways of conduct > -> > Non-remorse > -> > Gladness > -> > Joy > -> > Serenity > -> > Happiness > -> > Concentration of the mind > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > ============================== > With metta, > Howard From what I understand, you are saying that in the two Suttas you are referring to, the Buddha clearly stated that the first factor like 'sense control' lead step by step through 'right concentration' to 'final liberation'. If this is about a gradual training, I would like to know the exact Sutta (just the names will do). Metta, Sukin. 30145 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Michael, Thanks for these further comments. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > M: > This is what I notice in the discussions in the list. There is much > greater emphasis placed on 'paramatha dhammas' than on conditionality. > It is also reflected in the practice of the Dhamma. ..... S: Simply put, as I understand it, unless there is a clear understanding of namas and rupas (aka paramattha dhammas) there cannot and will not be a developed understanding which directly comprehends the conditionality of these same namas and rupas. In fact it is the very emphasis on ‘paramattha dhammas’ which helps us to distinguish them from concepts and which makes an understanding of anatta possible. It is the conditioned nature of namas and rupas which is taught by the Buddha . From the sutta Christine quoted the other day: Samyutta Nikaya 1 Bhikkhuniisamyutta 5.9 Selaa "Just so the aggregates and elements, And these six bases of sensory contact, Have come to be dependent on a cause; With the cause's breakup they will cease." [n.359] S: If you look in UP under ‘anatta’, ‘anatta and no control’, ‘conditions’ and so on, you’ll get an idea about how much has been written by some of us on conditionality. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... M: >As I understand many > of the 'believers in paramatha dhammas' don't practice meditation. I > think this is your case also. .... S: I think we need to clarify what is meant by ‘practice meditation’. I agree that when there is more understanding of paramattha dhammas, of anatta and thereby of conditionality, there will be fewer and fewer conditions for there to be any idea of ‘control’, ‘choice’ or a special time and place to ‘practice meditation’. ‘Practice’ will come down to direct knowledge of dhammas at this very moment. ..... M: >To be honest I don't fully understand how > you practice the Dhamma but it must be influenced by the view about > paramatha dhammas. The disregard for meditation falls within that view > and shows to me that conditionality is not considered very highly. .... S: You’d have to elaborate further. I would say the opposite. With more understanding about the conditions for this very moment of seeing or anger or panna, there will be less and less inclination to think it can be controlled or made to arise at will. When there is an idea of self, there is inevitably the idea of ‘making something happen’ or ‘creating special conditions’, not understanding that just this way of thinking is conditioned already or the anger one would like to stop has already fallen away, never to return. In other words, one continues to live in the past or future without an understanding of conditioned namas and rupas at this very moment. ..> Michael: > > If it were beyond language no one would be able to talk about it, but > quite the contrary there is a lot of talk about it. .... Paramattha dhammas are not the words or conventional terms, but the Buddha could still describe them to us in conventional language. .... M: >The Buddha did not > show paramatha dhammas, this is not found in the Suttas, .... S: I think you’ve got really hung up on this word and are refusing to understand it in the way we do or the way the commentaries use it, as referring to seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, anger or other realities which can be directly known. Why did the commentaries add more detail or elaborate on the suttas (even in the Buddha’s time)? Because many people like ourselves were not able to comprehend the correct meaning without this assistance. Even Rahula, the Buddha’son was said to be a ‘neyyapuggala’, a person who needed detailed guidance. In his case, the detailed guidance on namas and rupas (paramattha dhammas) was sufficient. In our case, we need even more guidance and hence we look to the Abhidhamma and Pali commentaries .... M: >but let's see > what can be found in the Katthavatthu. .... S: Let’s go through section by section when you have it. I like these comments of Ken O’s so much, I’m including them here, though they could just as easily (or may be more easily) have been included in my post to Htoo. ***** k: I personally think, that this personal believe that we can control what we talk is still under the guise of self. A self will always try to reassert itself, that it is in control. When we try to control it, to me this would mean we are adding wood to fire. Understanding of anatta should start from the understanding of anattaitself and from there we developed understanding. To me, my personal believe, we cannot start from the understanding of there is a self that can control to develop understanding of anatta, bc they are not compatible. I think the the correct premise to start with developing is very important. I dont think you will buy my argument, its ok. Everyone got its own cup of aggregates ;-). .... S: From U Narada’s preface to ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’: “If one considers the teaching of Abhidhamma starting with Dhs., and ending with P.th., it will be seen that aggregates, bases, elements and so on are expounded in them. This show that the realities, with which Abhidhamma deals, consists of aggregates, bases and elements that behave according to their own nautures and, therefore, are not dependent on one’s wishes. In other words, the realities behave according to the principle of anatta............ “The materiality-mentality, which constitute the human being, is not willed nor incited by atta or by any abiding entity, but is due to many causes. For example, when visible objects are seen daily, the seeing is due to four causes: 1) visible object, 2) sensitive eye, 3) light and 4) attention. For it is only when these four causes are present at the same time that eye-consciousness arises to see or know a visible object.” ***** S: I’m always happy to discuss more about conditions and especially, like Icaro, the Great Patthana. But we need to agree what are the conditioned namas and rupas first. So what do you understand namas and rupas to refer to? Look f/w to your comments;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 30146 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:22am Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi James, Azita and all, > > Sukin: > I also see at the end of this post that you talk about "effort" and > being "honest about where one is and where one need to eventually > be". I am going to make some observations, hope you don't mind if > they are assuming, please correct me then. Thank you for your observations, some of them concerning my position are not 100% correct but I don't see the need to quibble over minor differences. However, I am not sure how you want me to respond. Are you thinking out loud? Are you trying to tell me that I am wrong? Are you trying to ask me a question? I think I am aware of what you believe and why you believe it. The differences between our positions arise from the fact that you are operating from a metaphysical position: "There is no self" and I am not operating under any such position. Actually, as shocking as this may sound, I think that you believe in a `self' more than I do. You have a mental idea of what a `self' is and what a `self' means and what a `self' is capable of doing, etc., and since you believe there is `no self' then you make assumptions that negate all of your previous assumption. For all of your talk about not living under concepts, you are operating under one of the biggest mass of concepts of all. I don't know what to tell you. Metta, James Ps. I don't want to discuss dreams anymore. Sorry. 30147 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: Catching Anger --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > ----------------------- > C: > But, driving home later I still felt disturbed feelings in the > abdomen, chest and throat - and was re-living the story in my mind. > ------------------------- > > I was right; they ARE putting something in the water in South East > Queensland! First, I was obsessing about past mistakes (crying over > spilt milk) then Andrew was moaning on and on about some little > thing he might have said wrong -- now it's happened to you! > > We should head up north! I wonder if Azita would like us at her > place. Yeah, we northerners (northernerds)? just bore it up 'em with no regrets at all!!!!! > or `cane toad golf' yep! over the back fence with the neighbours!!! Dear Ken and others, ON a more serious note, do you think that Mana plays a part here? When we are angry and 'bore it up 'em' and then feel bad about what we said, isn't it usually bec. we wonder and maybe worry about what the others will think of us? Or could it be that there is worry, concern about akusala, and does it matter whether the akusala comes in the form of lobha, dosa or moha, it is still akusala and can be known anyway by the development of right understanding. Speaking of water, we have had lots of wonderful rain, and our dams are almost full, so we can waste water again now!!!!! Is cynicism a form of akusala? it feels like it probably is. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. PS looking forward to seeing you southernerds! sometime this year. 30148 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:57am Subject: Re: Catching Anger --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Or could it be that there is worry, concern about akusala, and > does it matter whether the akusala comes in the form of lobha, dosa > or moha, it is still akusala and can be known anyway by the > development of right understanding. > > ===================== Dear Azita, Yes. Any moment is good to insight. If we are afraid to study dosa, anger, no matter how strong, there can never be understanding: we will always be looking for something different from what is real now. If we are concerned about having anger what is the reason? Is it solely because of our concern for the other person, or do we cling to 'myself' as being someone who shouldn't have anger. Dosa is a mula, root, and so it is only gradually uprooted by the right path, and on that path there is no person, only namas and rupas. Robertk 30149 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Icaro, James, Andrew & All, --- icarofranca wrote: > > I was trying to quote "Benny the Bouncer" by memory! > I am not an Arahant for such brain feats!!! > And Now...the Complete "Benny The Bouncer"!!! ..... Icaro, I’m not sure how to tell you this.....but James’s good suggestion to Andy -- i.e taking refuge in the Triple Gem and showing one’s love in this way -- got my vote. .... I: > Well, they dragged him from the wreckage of the Palais in bits. > They tried to stick together all the bits that would fit. > But some of him was missing > and "part of him" arrived too late, > So now he works for Jesus > As the bouncer at St. Peter's Gate." > (Yeah !!!!! Finally Benny put an end to his series of > ressurrections, becoming an Arahant, a guardian of the humanity at > St. Peter´s gate. Buddha states that everyone that becomes an Arahant > must take his vows everyday in his life or die...and if he is not so > Ted as Sid, now is at a more high level!!!) ... S: LOL...maybe for those reflecting on Valentine asubha practices, this would be helpful;-) or for those still on the fence regarding Christianity/Buddhism;-) ... S: Back to your sensible posts. I liked the suggestion for depression (to Carl and Andy) to just take a good plunge in the Dhammasangani or to read the Patthana in Pali ..LOL... For others, see "Lonely, Unloved..." in UP. Your comment about all the effort to ‘get rid of akusala patterns’ is very sharp. Yes, what is the reason we’re so concerned about them and wish to get rid of them? Usually, just this wish indicates more clinging to self, I think. I really liked a quote James gave (post 29435) while we were away to indicate that with the understanding of conditions and dependent arising there will not be the running after the past and future with an idea or clinging to self: ""When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-020.html As Andrew put it (referring to another sutta): A: “My reading of these sutta lines is that “self-belief” is incompatible with conditionality and impermanence. If there were a “self”, there would be something permanent that could manipulate conditions from one moment to the next.” I also liked your meaty sleep post, Andrew (29988). You finished it by saying: A: “Surely the other side of this “no control” viewpoint is that, if the conditions arise for someone to meditate, they will meditate. I don’t have a problem with that at all. The caution is one that applies to us all - beware the creeping illusion of “self”!” Beautifully put - you’re the last person that needs to be concerned about having said the ‘wrong’ word here;-) While I’m cherry-picking from saved posts, I also greatly appreciated the sutta James selected (post 29434) about the ‘type of person who both thunders and rains’ to indicate the importance of both hearing the details and directly discerning the Truths. (Read the full sutta, this is just an abbreviated extract): "And how is one the type of person who both thunders and rains? There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer sessions. He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.'... 'This is the origination of stress.'... 'This is the cessation of stress.'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who both thunders and rains. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that both thunders and rains. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-102.html James, a good comment too: J: “The Buddha doesn't qualify which is better; he just states that these types of people exist. But hey, if I am going to be a thunderhead, I might as well rain and thunder!! ;-))” Metta to all thunderheads, Sarah p.sIcaro, what does it mean to say “Sariputta is the Zen of Angulimala” (post 30019 - talking about anatta as ‘one of the main pillars of all Buddhism”. ============================================= 30150 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:10am Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi James, James: > The differences between our positions arise from the fact that you > are operating from a metaphysical position: "There is no self" and I > am not operating under any such position. Sukin: In a post to Larry, I mentioned three ways in which the 'self' manifests, namely via Tanha, Mana and Ditthi. In experience (subjective of course), there is just wanting, sometimes there is just the presence of "I" in relation to people and things and to ideas, sometimes there will be a story about what self can do or not do. These are OK under most conventional circumstances. However, when in relation to understanding the Buddha's teachings, when there is this grasping attitude and an idea that control is possible, and there is a level of sati, then the natural reaction is that, *it is wrong*! Of course there is more often than not, the fact of 'coming out from a position of knowledge' a preconceived conclusion. However, even these have been recognized. And at other times, there can be the recognition that there is wrong view with regard to experience and one may go further and discover that it is `attachment to self' which has dictated the particular line of thinking. James: > Actually, as shocking as this may sound, I think that you believe in a `self' more than I do. > You have a mental idea of what a `self' is and what a `self' means > and what a `self' is capable of doing, etc., and since you believe > there is `no self' then you make assumptions that negate all of your > previous assumption. For all of your talk about not living under > concepts, you are operating under one of the biggest mass of concepts > of all. I don't know what to tell you. Sukin: I do *all the time* live under concepts. And I *do* have major problem with `self'. Mostly via Tanha and Mana, and less so with Ditthi. The first two influences will depend on how much I've developed my understanding and cannot be forced to change. Ditthi too is not-self and lessens with more development of panna. However, discussing with dhamma friends as I am doing here does help a great deal, at least when it comes to recognizing more and more such influences. ;-) > Metta, James > Ps. I don't want to discuss dreams anymore. Sorry. Sukin: Not so important anyway. Metta, Sukin 30151 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:35pm Subject: The Buddha's Perfume Shop! Friends: In the city of Nibbana, what is the Perfume Shop of the Buddha ? The kinds of Moral Habit, that the sons of the Buddha anoint themselves with, is a fragrance that goes even against the wind & pervading all, spreading everywhere, instantly, globally, non-local, suffuses the entire Universe: The Moral Habit of taking Refuge in the Three Jewels. The Moral Habit of keeping the Five Precepts. The Moral Habit of keeping the Eight Precepts. The Moral Habit of keeping the Ten Precepts. The Moral Habit of keeping the Vinaya Code. This is called the Buddha's perfume shop.. The scent of Virtue excels all other smells! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sila.html All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30152 From: Andy Wilson Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Nina, Azita, everyone who commented many thanks for your replies, which I found very helpful as well as, in many cases, touching. The main message I got from the many replies was to be patient, to try a little each day, or on each occasion of sadness and anger, to cope with feelings and see their true origin and nature. I am trying to do this as well as i can. It was also a great relief to me when people described their own experience. I know we all know (intellectually) that sadness and separation are a necessary feature of our lives, but whenever people spoke of their own past and present sadness in similar stuations it really helped relieve my own feelings just through the spontaneous act of empathising with the suffering of others. So, my sympathising with them paid off for me. As for various comments about the relevance or otherwise of Abhidhamma to me right now, I don't feel I am 'jumping in at the deep end' by thinking of philosophical ideas at this point as I don't think I am really 'jumping in' to anything at the moment, just quietly reading and studying the AS and trying to learn whenever the ideas touch on my own experience. I don't think I am expecting any easy answers from that part of my life at the moment. Oh, I jumped out of my reading of the AS to read Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Everyday Life', as I found it's direct, practical tone especially helpful. Things I found that helped relieved my unhappiness at different times; 1. seeing it as an inevitable part of my life 2. hearing of others experience of the same feelings 3. reassuring myself that i am still of some value, or am not made less valuable by unhappiness One thing that didn't help (and isn't helping) is the fact that sometimes anger comes as a *relief* from simple misery. Sometimes I would be sitting feeling very low, stressed and miserable and then something my (ex-) partner would do, or thinking about something she has done (I should excplain that we are still living together while we try to sell our flat, and we work together, so I see her most of the day every day, which makes coming to terms with seperation a full-time job for me) would make me very angry with her. I did not express this anger except that it must have been obvious on my face and my manner. However, when I felt this anger I was almost pleased because it took the hurt away for a while. The fact that sometimes anger is a relief makes it even harder for me to escape the anger than it is for me to escape the depression. I suppose that is just another level of mistaken view to deal with(?) metta -- [][][] Andy Wilson | Mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253 [][] Managing Director | Tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060 [] [] LShift Ltd | Web: http://www.lshift.net 30153 From: Andy Wilson Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? > 1. seeing it as an inevitable part of my life > 2. hearing of others experience of the same feelings > 3. reassuring myself that i am still of some value, or am not > made less valuable by unhappiness i forgot to add; 4. appreciating any sympathy for my situation from others. 5. thinking in objective ways about the situation (eg. writing this mail). In other words, getting any kind of intellectual distance from my feelings helped. this sounds unusual i guess in a world where we are always being told to 'get in touch with our feelings'. i am not sure that this distance is neccesarily a good thing, but I can see that it seems to help from moment to moment. as for the 'big debates' that some people touched on, i feel spectaculary unqualified to speak, but my experience of this list and my reading inclines me more and more to a view I don't have a name for (though presumably someone here can reply and tell me), which consists of thinking that the texts i am reading (AS, sutras...) represent fundamental truths about being, mentality, existence, but that they are expressed in / refracted through the cultures of long dead people and wrapped up in views that I think i would always consider inessential (details about how many heavens there might be, the belief that my physical looks reflect past kamma, and a hundred other things). Therefore I suppose I'm inclined to think that a lot of work is involved in transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil, as they say, and that I should feel free to interpret dhamma in the critical spirit the texts seem to encourage, rejecting the inessential in order to get a tighter grip on the heart of the dhamma. reading between the lines this sounds like maybe a heterodox position for this list. would that be the case? do people believe that exisiting traditions are good enough 'as is', or is there a need to radically rework and reinterpret? metta andy 30154 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:35am Subject: [dsg] Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear Sarah: > ..... > Icaro, I'm not sure how to tell you this..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! As a singer I am a complete disaster! --------------------------------------------------------------------- but James's good suggestion > to Andy -- i.e taking refuge in the Triple Gem and showing one's love in > this way -- got my vote. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Someday I will take the three gems and five precepts vows... at a more serious and conspicuous mood. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: Back to your sensible posts. I liked the suggestion for depression (to > Carl and Andy) to just take a good plunge in the Dhammasangani or to read > the Patthana in Pali ..LOL... --------------------------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact that is the way I think about it: if you feel depressed or amused by mundane traits, a good reading will do it good... and The Dhammasangani, with its unique style of stating orderly dhammas and states of consciousness are very precious. If you prefer a more intrincate combinatory analysis of Paccayas and Dhammas, The Patthanapali is the best. Or, if you wants a direct and rueful reply to your answer, The Vibhanga or Yamaka FAQ style will fit it. I like reading these works as many as I like read THE UNCANNY X-MEN ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Your comment about all the effort to `get rid of akusala patterns' is very > sharp. Yes, what is the reason we're so concerned about them and wish to > get rid of them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not proposing a nazi "Final Solution" for akusala patterns and moods. Buddha had teached many methods and ways to get rid of Samsara and reach Nibbana, to recognize and identify Kusala and akusala Dhammas, hetu and ahetu Paccayas and all its doors, roots and aggregates. Since I am more directed to intellectual views, reading about it at the Tipitaka indeed makes me good... I only felt myself urged to say some words to Carl about his problems! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > p.sIcaro, what does it mean to say "Sariputta is the Zen of Angulimala" > (post 30019 - talking about anatta as `one of the main pillars of all > Buddhism". -------------------------------------------------------------------- Reading at the Atthaka XVI, "Sariputta Sutta", we get ( again I will try to quote it by memory...and with a loose translation! Alas!): "What a wonderful person", says Sariputta pointed out to Buddha, "Seems me to me that He came down from the Tushita Heaven!... The Bhagavan could say to us , etc...". This initial passage shows some sarcasm of Sariputta towards Buddha. At other passages with Moggalana we get a suggestion that he was a "Thunderhead" himself. As Angulimala, that was a murder. Traditionally, Buddha never put the Zen at a so high platform... Mahakassyapa was the manager of this particular path of practising. Following up the Anatta line of reasoning on Buddhism exegesis, we get the same non-self process flowing from Angulimala, at a low stand or staircase to Sariputta at a high position of understanding. Since there are not a essence such "Self", "I","You", "She" or "He" from Angulimala to Sariputta but the "Thunderhead" common caracteristic ( a "guna" ?), I say that "Sariputta is the Zen or the mindfulness of Angulimala. Frankly, Mathematics is more simple and clever!!! Mettaya, Icaro 30155 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:56am Subject: [dsg] Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Typo! As > Angulimala, that was a murder. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Angulimala was a murderer... and a Thunderhead himself! mettaya, Icaro 30156 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:36am Subject: The Buddha's Fruit Shop! Friends: In the city of Nibbana, what is the Fruit shop of the Buddha ? These fruits of Nobility have been pointed out by the Buddha: The Fruit of Stream-Entry (sotapatti-phala). The Fruit of Once-Return (sakadagami-phala). The Fruit of Non-Return (anagami-phala). The Fruit of Arahat-ship (arahatta-phala). The Fruit of the Sign-less Liberation (animitta-vimokkha). The Fruit of the Detached Liberation (apanihita-vimokkha). The Fruit of the Void Liberation (sunnata-vimokkha). What is Stream-Entry ? Whosoever eliminates the first three fetters: personality-belief , sceptical doubt & clinging to mere rule & ritual, such one plunges into the Stream leading to Nibbana & is secured from rebirth in the lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment within just 7 rebirths at most! What is Once-Return ? Whosoever eliminates the first 3 fetters & furthermore reduces lust & aversion, such one will return only once more; and having once more returned to this world, he will put an end to all suffering. What is Non-Return ? Whosoever eliminates all 5 first fetters, such one reappears in a high divine realm, and there reaches Nibbana, without ever returning from that world to the worlds of sense. What is Arahat-ship? Whosoever eliminates the first 5 lower & all 5 higher fetters: craving for having form, craving for formless existence, the conceit 'I am', restlessness and ignorance, such one, through the extinction of mental fermentation, reaches already in this very life the release of mind, the release through wisdom, which is freed of mental fermentation, and which he himself has understood and realised. What is the Sign-less Liberation? Whosoever with firm determination, considers all formations as Transient (anicca), such a one attains the sign-less liberation. What is the Detached Liberation? Whosoever calmed with tranquillity, considers all formations as Painful (dukkha), such a one attains the detached liberation. What is the Void Liberation? Whosoever seeing with understanding, considers all formations as selfless (anatta), such a one attains the void liberation. Whoever searching for freedom & who pay the price of effort, can choose whatever of the fruit he wants. Happy are those who have bought the Ambrosial Fruit ! This is called the Buddha's fruit shop in the City of Nibbana... All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30157 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Ken O, Spanking your little girl out of anger is unskillful, and you regretted it for doing that. I suggested developing brahmavihara because brahmavihara is skillful. If brahmavihara is well developed, one would not be angry [unskillful mental action] and hit others out of anger [unskillful bodily action]. Meditation practice is like physical exercise. With exercising, one strengthens one's body. With meditating, one purifies one's mind. It does not make too much sense for one to say: "I won't exercise until my body is strong." Likewise, it does not make too much sense to say: "I won't meditate until my mind is pure." Lastly, it is possible to abandon what is unskillful and develop what is skillful. Anguttara Nikaya II.19 Kusala Sutta Skillful Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html Metta, Victor PS. Please address to James directly if you have something to tell him. [1] Anguttara Nikaya VI.13 Nissaraniya Sutta Means of Escape http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-013.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > Hmm, I am not waiting for the right conditions to arise bc the > conditions were righted itself to arise, there is no need to me to > wait ;-). By the way, you have not reply my earlier mail ;-). > > Victor, if one can control one's immaterial aggregates, then I will > meditate, if not till then, it will be not be beneficial. > > James said < factors, mula, I think it would be simpler to just say: habit>> And I > forget to tell James that habit is also a root cause (accumulation > and latency[for the three unwholesome roots]), everything must be > done eradicating the root cause. The chinese said, cutting the grass > one must clear the roots, or not winds blows, the grass grows again. > > > > > Ken O 30158 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:37am Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi James, > In a post to Larry, I mentioned three ways in which the 'self' > manifests, namely via Tanha, Mana and Ditthi. In experience > (subjective of course), there is just wanting, sometimes there is > just the presence of "I" in relation to people and things and to > ideas, sometimes there will be a story about what self can do or not > do. These are OK under most conventional circumstances. However, > when in relation to understanding the Buddha's teachings, when there > is this grasping attitude and an idea that control is possible, and > there is a level of sati, then the natural reaction is that, *it is > wrong*! > Of course there is more often than not, the fact of 'coming out from > a position of knowledge' a preconceived conclusion. However, even > these have been recognized. And at other times, there can be the > recognition that there is wrong view with regard to experience and > one may go further and discover that it is `attachment to self' > which has dictated the particular line of thinking. I'm sorry, I am having a difficult time following your train of thought here. Let me just quote from the Buddha where he said that it is wrong to have the view "There is no self": "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self ... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self ... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self ... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of- the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html Metta, James 30159 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack ------------------------- J: > Many feel that vipassana and samadhi were split apart as separate practices much later than when the Buddha taught and was not intended by him. -------------- Well, that would be an important issue to settle. But I think it is clear, from the suttas, that many ariyans attained enlightenment without ever practising jhana. Ken, I make the distinction between samadhi and jhana when I wrote the above. I think that all Aryans who attained enlightenment practiced samadhi but not necessarily the jhanas. -------------- J: > Each arising and passing away of a citta and cetasaika does last only one billionth of a second. but, we can be aware of many arising and passing aways. It is like seeing a movie. We don't see the individual frame but we do see a picture of a horse, car, etc. --------------------------- True, but that's still a conceptual way of knowing, isn't it? The direct way of knowing is the arising of the cetasika, panna to see that whatever arises and passes away is either a nama or a rupa. No that isn't a conceptual way of knowing, at least to me. I have proved it to myself in meditation. We differ on this point. I think I made my view clear. I understand yours and disagree. At this point, I can't think of anything I can add to what I have said below. If I do, I'll post it. Otherwise, be well. Jack All too often, in the place of panna (amoha), there is ignorance (moha). At these times, we are ignorant of the difference between concept and reality. For example, we wonder; 'is visible object like a still-frame image on a movie film? Or is it like a pixel of colour on a TV screen? Or both? Or neither?' We are not blind, we have our eyes open, we are able to read words and avoid bumping into things – so we *know* there must be the eye, visible object, eye contact, eye-consciousness and so on. So, there is not necessarily moha all the time. But when we try to direct our mind to any one of those realities (try to have satipatthana), there is immediately concept (thinking) and ignorance (of the difference between thinking and reality). `Visible object' for example, becomes conceptualised as areas of colour, curved, straight, rounded, pointed, horse-like, car- like and so on. --------------- J: > I think there is a danger in not realizing that the Buddha had many teachings that applied to people at different points of their path. At one point, trying mind is very important. At another point, one relaxes. ---------------- If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and try to cross the flood? ----------------- J: > In my opinion, the Buddha did prescribe ritualistic practices, for example, going off into the forest and sitting down by a tree to meditate. ----------------------------- Sorry to be disagreeing so much, but sitting down (for example) is not a ritual that the Buddha prescribed for jhana cultivation. It is an activity that the Buddha described as being part of the jhana practitioner's method. There is a big difference. ---------------------------- J: > But, he made sure that people understood that rituals (and concepts) were worthless unless they pointed to something that would change us. --------------------------- Hmmm, hard to disagree with that :-) Let's remember, though, that rite and ritual are ultimately ineffective. --------------- J: > With all that said, Ken, what is your practice? Do you meditate? --------------- No, I don't have a formal practice. But, little by little, I am learning. So there must be a practice of some sort. ------------------------- J: > Do you try to see in your own experience all that we are talking about? ------------------------ Occasionally, against my better judgement, I `try' to experience reality. On some of these occasions, there is the recognition, "This is not right effort," and I remember that right effort is dependent upon right understanding -- not upon a controlling self. So, perhaps, moments like those are right practice. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 30160 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Victor You still have not answer my question ;-). Hmm dont divert it away. I told you it is possible to be skillful without having trying to do anything special, just by considering the dhamma. Let me quote you "the two kinds of thought sutta" "Dvedhavitakka Sutta" MN 19 11. "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renuniciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of non-ill will...upon thoughts of non-cruetly, he has abandon the thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruetly" Then again let me quote you another sutta, All the Taints Sutta (sabbasava) MN 2 8" when he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view 'self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'no self exist for me' arise in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self with self' arises in him and established; or the view 'I perceive not self with self' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self with not-self' arises in him as true and established or else he has some such view as this: "It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.' So are you perceiving self with not self in meditation. In other words, is there a self that practise a meditation that focus on not self. Think about it and cheers. (dont forget to answer my qn though :-)). Ken O 30161 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Ken O, I think resolving the problem with anger and spanking your little girl out of anger is much more important than looking for answers to speculative questions. I don't consider meditation practice or developing brahmavihara in terms of special or not special. I consider meditation practice and developing brahmavihara is skillful and beneficial. Indeed, thoughts of sensual desires, cruelty, and ill will are to be abandoned. Thoughts on renunciation, non-cruelty, and non-ill will are to be developed. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > You still have not answer my question ;-). Hmm dont divert it away. > > > I told you it is possible to be skillful without having trying to do > anything special, just by considering the dhamma. Let me quote you > "the two kinds of thought sutta" "Dvedhavitakka Sutta" MN 19 > > 11. "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders > upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently > thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renuniciation, he has abandoned > the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of > renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of > non-ill will...upon thoughts of non-cruetly, he has abandon the > thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then > his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruetly" > > Then again let me quote you another sutta, All the Taints Sutta > (sabbasava) MN 2 > > 8" when he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in > him. The view 'self exists for me' arises in him as true and > established; or the view 'no self exist for me' arise in him as true > and established; or the view 'I perceive self with self' arises in > him and established; or the view 'I perceive not self with self' > arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self > with not-self' arises in him as true and established or else he has > some such view as this: "It is this self of mine that speaks and > feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad > actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, > not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.' > > So are you perceiving self with not self in meditation. In other > words, is there a self that practise a meditation that focus on not > self. > > Think about it and cheers. (dont forget to answer my qn though :- )). > > Ken O 30162 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:47am Subject: Re: W?at causes Nibbana ? Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, I am delighted to see the answers you gaive. In your post you stated 'What causes Nibbana?' see this topic. So I had to ask this. Regarding Tipitaka, a member of JourneyToNibbana has answered. Thanks again for your answer and explanation. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing > > >1. Does Nibbana have a cause? > > (Hehehe Htoo is not asleep!) > > Nibbana is uncaused, unconditioned & unconstructed! > Nibbana is ABSENCE of ignorance, lust & aversion. > This 'absence' or 'negation' cannot really be called > A Cause, which would require 'presence' of something. > 30163 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Sarah, I like our discussion. The problem is lengthiness. ANyway, I will try. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H:Arahatta Magga Panna at the moment is the highest now. This Panna is for all who want to get through the samsara. Other higher Panna are the matter of choice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Ah, now before we both agreed that all dhammas are anatta, not in anyone's control. Isn't this choice reintroducing an idea of self and control again? Also, as we're laying out the map, let's not be too concerned about the Arahants' panna for now;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please see my message in ' Sensing own mind whenever it moves (07 and 08 ).I am not introducing Atta. All beings just going into Nibbana obtain Arahatta Magga. I said for Savaka Bodhi, Pacceka Bodhi, and Sammasambodhi. I was talking about 'their' perfection. When we are talking all are conventional. People frequently mix up Pannatta and Paramattha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: So, I made pushing to concentration. This does not necessarily mean without panna. Panna has to involve all the time. .... S: Why the `pushing to concentration'? I don't follow the logic here. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is the matter of choice. Actually all are needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > If not heard through the aid of one of Sammasambuddha, no one will > > develop Arahatta Panna however hard they try. .... S: ..And if they have heard with this aid, are you sure it is the `trying'that will help? Think of the Nava suit about the chickens and eggs or the Ogha sutta (first sutta in SN) about crossing the floods which Ken H has just been referring to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean not-trying will help achieving? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: In the same way, when I do my Tai chi or yoga exercise, there is a lot of strong concentration involved, otherwise I'd be forgetting my movements and falling over. However, concentration which is not obviously unwholesome (such as in killing ) does not make it wholesome. Unless there is panna which understands the paramattha dhamma(in development of satipatthana) or which understands the object of samatha and how it conditions the mind to be calm in a wholesome way at that very moment, or is co-arising with dana or sila, it is bound to be unwholesome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Panna has to arise when conditions condition its arising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Wise and unwise concentration? Concentration is concentration at a single moment. It does not need to be wise or unwise. Its function is to fix at a point, to fix at a direction. > When concentration become Samma Samadhi, you may say it as wise concentration but still it is concentration. Wise and unwise is function of Pannindriya cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: This is all true, but there is still a big distinction between wholesome and unwholesome concentration (when arising in the javana). Panna and samadhi condition each other. In the same way lobha and akusala concentration condition each other. So the samma and the akusala concentration have different characteristics to be known. ---------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do you mean I am wasting time, time of other people, and creating the wrong journey? The journey has not even started. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mean, we'd better make sure we're on the right journey. The wrong journey is one started and followed with an idea of `self' or `trying'. The path has to be right from the start. Others have been discussing `using self to get rid of self'. This is a commonly held idea. However,any moments with the wrong idea of self take us on the wrong track or journey. If progress on the right track is made, it is despite these diversions or U-turns, not because of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Excellent idea! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: Please tell me your destination. .... S: Good (and difficult) question! As soon as I have any idea about destination in terms of insights or nibbana, I find it's a condition for attachment. So these days, I just consider the destination as the understanding of the paramattha dhammas arising to be known right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha dhamma cannot be understood fully without enough panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: But have to individualize. Each Arahat goes each. > > Paccatamvedhitabbo Vinnuhi'ti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: We all have different accumulations (different carita touched on in the Satipatthana sutta), but the Way, the understanding of dhammas as not self is the same for all regardless. *We* don't have to do anything. Namas and rupas are arising and falling all the time and can be known as they appear to panna right now, one at a time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: '' can be known ?'' by whom? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: Actually the map has not been spread out. Yes there is no meditator. No one is meditating. All these are in the map itself which will come out finally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Let's continue the discussions and spreading out of the map. I also liked Bhikkhu Samahita's comments here (post 30094): Bhikkhu S:>So the `personal entity' we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy the experience is merely a mental construct, an idea, a concept, & not a reality … The passive impersonal process of sensing, perception & experiencing cannot thereby be `instrumental' for neither creating nor inferring any `being in existence' or "substance in existence" !!! "'I' am not, just because there is experience." "'World' is neither, just because there is experience." " What there IS is momentary Experience. No more is Fact!" The fact of this fundamental `selflessness' "substancelessness" is far the most essential core of the Buddha-Dhamma. Outmost important to grasp yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby difficult & somewhat `nasty' to comprehend. ***** > Htoo, I look forward to your further helpful comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 30164 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hello Sarah, Sarah: Simply put, as I understand it, unless there is a clear understanding of namas and rupas (aka paramattha dhammas) there cannot and will not be a developed understanding which directly comprehends the conditionality of these same namas and rupas. In fact it is the very emphasis on 'paramattha dhammas' which helps us to distinguish them from concepts and which makes an understanding of anatta possible. It is the conditioned nature of namas and rupas which is taught by the Buddha. Michael: The question here is how does the clear understanding of namas and rupas arise? Since any idea of doing is unacceptable since this entails a self which is clearly non-existent, it is just a mere concept (paññatti), how are the necessary mind qualities to see nama rupas in the proper way originated? How does this 'direct comprehension' take place? Sarah: I think we need to clarify what is meant by 'practice meditation'. I agree that when there is more understanding of paramattha dhammas, of anatta and thereby of conditionality, there will be fewer and fewer conditions for there to be any idea of 'control', 'choice' or a special time and place to 'practice meditation'. 'Practice' will come down to direct knowledge of dhammas at this very moment. Michael: I can understand your reluctance in thinking about meditation practice since this entails someone doing something and this viewed from the perspective of paramatha/paññatti dichotomy is not acceptable. But again the question is how does the understanding and direct knowledge you refer to come about? How are the necessary mind qualities originated for that to happen? Metta Michael 30165 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 2/16/04 2:59:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > As a general comment I would like first to state two things; > > 1. All realities are to be known, and that they can be known only > when they are experienced, which is in the `present' moment. > 2. In reality, there is just this present moment. Any idea of time, > place and `effort' on `self's' part is just mental projection. > ====================== I think that what you say here is true .. yet, in other senses not. It *is* ultimately true, and the Zen folks would concur with that. Ultimately there is nothing that happens, nothing that changes - it is all *now* and it is all objective, impersonal, and "such". That, however, is the "view from nibbana", and we are not "there". From "where we are," though there may only be "now", that "now" is not instantaneous, and during that "now" there may be exercised Right Effort, including guarding the senses, not initiating what is harmful, cutting short whatever harmful state has commenced, initiating what is useful, and prolonging any useful state that has commenced. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30166 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory HI, Sukin - In a message dated 2/16/04 3:21:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >The content of the two suttas was as follows (hope no odd > symbols): > > > >Sense control > >-> > >Virtue > >-> > >Right concentration > >-> > >Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > >-> > >Revulsion and dispassion > >-> > >Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > > and > > > >Virtuous ways of conduct > >-> > >Non-remorse > >-> > >Gladness > >-> > >Joy > >-> > >Serenity > >-> > >Happiness > >-> > >Concentration of the mind > >-> > >Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > >-> > >Revulsion and dispassion > >-> > >Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > >============================== > >With metta, > >Howard > > From what I understand, you are saying that in the two Suttas you > are referring to, the Buddha clearly stated that the first factor > like 'sense control' lead step by step through 'right concentration' > to 'final liberation'. If this is about a gradual training, I would > like to know the exact Sutta (just the names will do). > > Metta, > Sukin. > ============================== They are from the Anguttara Nikaya: The 1st is from the book of sixes, entitled "Step by Step," and the second from the book of tens, entitled "The Benefits of Virtue". (See also "Lawfulness of Progress" in the book of tens.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30167 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/14/04 7:54:49 PM Central Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: True, but that's still a conceptual way of knowing, isn't it? The direct way of knowing is the arising of the cetasika, panna to see that whatever arises and passes away is either a nama or a rupa. Ken, I have a few minutes at lunch so I will comment more on your post. What does the second sentence above mean to you as applied to your own experience? In my experience, I can experience hardness as my feet rest on the gound. Hardness is an ultimate. If I calm my mind down, knowing this hardness is not a conceptual way of knowing although I might use the concept of hardness to point my attention to the experience. I think anyone can do this. [snip{ If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and try to cross the flood? ---------------- I don't understand your thinking. What do you think the 8-Fold Path is about? Doesn't the Buddha suggest we can reduce suffering by trying to not kill sentient beings, to use one example. I bet I can pick up the Majjhima Nikaya volume next to by desk, open it to a sutta at random and find a mention of the Buddha's teaching us to try something. OK. I picked it up at MN2. Among other things this sutta suggests we remove taints by avoiding certain thoughts. To me, this involves trying. I must be missing something. jack 30168 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] bodily intimation, more info Hi Larry, op 16-02-2004 00:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "This means that citta wishes to express a meaning by means of that > rúpa, no matter whether someone else understands it or not. There may > also be rúpas originating from the citta which does not intend to > convey a meaning, when one moves the body naturally while standing, > walking, sitting or lying down. If others think that a meaning is being > conveyed, that is due to their own thinking and does not concern the > rúpa of bodily intimation." > > Regarding "body language", if someone frowns just because they are > unhappy, that is not bodily intimation, but if someone else (an actor, > for example) frowns wishing to convey "I am unhappy", that _is_ bodily > intimation. Correct? N: Someone may be nervous and frown, without the intention to convey a meaning. That is not bodily intimation. Not only an actor, but we all may frown to show disapproval, and have the intention to make this known. That is bodily intimation. We have to consider the citta that originates this change in the primary elements which is bodily intimation. 30169 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Hi Larry, op 16-02-2004 00:27 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "A traffic sign is a concept, it is not one of the 28 rupas, as > listed in > the Dhsg." > When you say a traffic sign is a concept do you mean a traffic sign is a > word, or do you mean a traffic sign is a mental formation (sankhata). N: sankhata means: conditioned. citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned realities. The word mental formation is usually used as a translation of sankharakkhandha, the khandha of activities or mental formations, including all cetasikas except feeling and remembrance. The word sankhaara dhammas means: all conditioned dhammas, citta, cetasika and rupa. Traffic sign is a word representing an idea or concept, not a dhamma such as citta, cetasika or rupa. Pa~n~natti, concept has two meanings: 1. that which makes known, a term or word. 2. an idea that is object of thinking, but not a paramattha dhamma. L: When I wave "goodbye" with my hand that is also a mental formation. You > won't find "hand" among the 28 rupas either. N: See above for mental formation. Hand is a pa~n~natti, it is not citta, cetasika or rupa. Through which doorway does hand appear? If there were no dhammas there would not be the idea of hand. Through eyes only colour appears, no hand. Through touch tangible object, including three great elements appear as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. Let that hand crumble away, let the traffic light crumble away. Hand is the idea of a whole. In the absolute sense there are only elements appearing one at a time through one doorway at a time. We always should ask ourselves: through what doorway is this or that dhamma experienced? In the development of insight, from the beginning to the end, only one characteristic appears at a time. There are three general characteristics and these are always characteristics *of* a nama or rupa that appears right now. That nama or rupa is the object of direct awareness and understanding. It appears, because it has arisen, and its true nature can be penetrated. Thus, when the characteristic of impermanence or anatta is penetrated by panna, it has to be the impermanence or the anattaness of the citta, cetasika or rupa appearing right now. Not just impermanence or anattaness in general that is contemplated. Nina. P.S. I shall work on your notes, unraffling them, and then answer your question. I have to compare with my Pali text. 30170 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my father, and the dog's bodily intimation. Dear Andrew, op 16-02-2004 00:53 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > I need to keep thinking about all this and testing it in my daily > life. With all this Dhamma stuff, sometimes I think I am at > university level. Next moment, I'm back in kindergarten! N: Very good. I was talking with my Thai friends about this. We all agreed that we need so much perseverance and patience. And we said to each other that we should not become discouraged. My father: As usual we had Sunday dinner with him and played music. Amazing how this brought him back to reality. Straight after the music he said: I retract all my complaints and critizism I had towards both of you. This is quite something for him to say, considering that his memory is becoming weaker. The dog: he came several times to Lodewijk after the music and expressed his appreciation by putting his head on Lodewijk's knee and looking very kindly and intently into his eyes. Bodily intimation of the dog who wished to convey a meaning! Aussie language is very interesting. You use the word bloody more often. Christine made me laugh when she talked Aussie language, although I did not understand it. Nina. 30171 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger in daily life Hi James, op 15-02-2004 23:10 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > 1.Reflect on a different object which is wholesome > 2.Consider the disadvantages of the thought > 3.Don't pay attention to the thought > 4.Reflect on the removal of the source of the thought > 5.Mentally beat down the thought N: I appreciate this, though I do not follow the link, lack of time as usual. You reflect on your different cittas, also those with anger. And I also appreciate Howard's kusala citta, when he apologized to Victor. It is not James or Howard who reflect, it is understanding and mindfulness. That anger arose in daily life, and you reflect on that daily life anger. You can sit quietly, but it is not necessary to do so. This understanding can develop and form up a condition later on for direct understanding or insight. Also this can arise in daily life. It is not you, but understanding, and do not underestimate its power. We can read about many disciples who developed insight and attained enlightenment in daily life. If we keep on thinking that it is me, we believe: O, I cannot do it, this daily life idea is ridiculous. But no, it is developed pa~n~naa! Nina. 30172 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Ken H, I like your kind of humor, especially the crying over spilt milk part, it gives me a good time. I spill a lot, not to speak about crying. Nina. op 16-02-2004 02:36 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > I was right; they ARE putting something in the water in South East > Queensland! First, I was obsessing about past mistakes (crying over > spilt milk) then Andrew was moaning on and on about some little > thing he might have said wrong -- now it's happened to you! > > We should head up north! I wonder if Azita would like us at her > place. 30173 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:52am Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Dear Howard > From "where we are," though there may only be "now", that "now" is not > instantaneous, and during that "now" there may be exercised Right Effort, > including guarding the senses, not initiating what is harmful, cutting short > whatever harmful state has commenced, initiating what is useful, and prolonging > any useful state that has commenced. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Uprooted Upasaka! Ditto!!!!!!!!!! One of the characteristics of "Time" is that above mere concepts or predicaments (well, they can be objectively valuable for many people! Anyway, all the sammuit-sacca are the mutual relationships that can be known of knowable objects). And above all Past/Future dichotomy we all must stand in front of the face of present! Mettaya, Ícaro 30174 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bodily intimation, 1 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/16/04 1:48:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > We always should ask ourselves: through > what doorway is this or that dhamma experienced? ======================== I think this is very true and very important! I also think that when that practice is done regularly it is *striking* how often the true answer is "the mind door". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30175 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:14am Subject: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 09 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, ' The meditator ' recognizes at a time that a mind state ( not a mental state ) with undeveloped nature has arisen. ' He ' recognizes this state because there are evidences that this mind state ( not a mental state )arises with acompanying mental factors which are not of a developed mind state. 'He' notes that a mind state with undeveloped nature arises. He knows this because he experiences a well developed mind state. He is continuing his contemplative practice on mind and mind states. There he finds that mind states are not static. They are always changing. No mind state stays more than a moment. Even though he is meditating, mind is not static at breath and nostril but when there is an outside sense impression there has to be a response and apparently a mind state has to arises at that sense door. Practising mindfulness is not that easy as in this writing pieces and words. However hard he tries meditating and focusing, mind does not stay still. At a time there arises old memories as the object of mind and the mind state that arises at that memories may link to other inferior mind states ( Sauttaracittas ). These mind states may go unnoticed. At a time after a while, a mind state with mindfulness arises and knows that there has arisen a mind state with inferior nature. Soon after recognized, these inferior mind states cease to arise. Instead as he is meditating another mind state has to arise as a superior mind state ( Anuttaracitta ). May all beings be able to contemplate on mind and achieve Panna. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30176 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:16am Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Typo! (A lot of work here at the Bureau...) > One of the characteristics of "Time" is that above mere concepts > or predicaments (well, they can be objectively valuable for many > people! Anyway, all the sammuit-sacca are the mutual relationships > that can be known of knowable objects). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The correct could be "One of the characteristics of "Time" is that it is above mere concepts ." Mettaya, Ícaro 30177 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/14/04 7:54:49 PM Central Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > True, but that's still a conceptual way of knowing, isn't it? The > direct way of knowing is the arising of the cetasika, panna to see > that whatever arises and passes away is either a nama or a rupa. > Ken, > > I have a few minutes at lunch so I will comment more on your post. What does > the second sentence above mean to you as applied to your own experience? In my > experience, I can experience hardness as my feet rest on the gound. Hardness > is an ultimate. If I calm my mind down, knowing this hardness is not a > conceptual way of knowing although I might use the concept of hardness to point my > attention to the experience. I think anyone can do this. > [snip{ > If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the > flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and > try to cross the flood? > > ---------------- > I don't understand your thinking. What do you think the 8-Fold Path is about? > Doesn't the Buddha suggest we can reduce suffering by trying to not kill > sentient beings, to use one example. I bet I can pick up the Majjhima Nikaya > volume next to by desk, open it to a sutta at random and find a mention of the > Buddha's teaching us to try something. OK. I picked it up at MN2. Among other > things this sutta suggests we remove taints by avoiding certain thoughts. To me, > this involves trying. > > I must be missing something. > > jack LOL! I could hardly stop laughing when I read this post! I have been right where you are now. Welcome to the Land of Oz!! ;-)) (BTW, yes I am the 'James' you know of from DL, in a manner of speaking ;-). Metta, James 30178 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: Anger in daily life Hi Nina, Nina: You can sit quietly, but it is not necessary to do so. James: LOL! Meditation isn't just `sitting quietly' like one is waiting for a bus or something. ;-)) It is mental cultivation. There is a lot more going on than how it appears. Don't judge by appearances. Nina: It is not you, but understanding, and do not underestimate its power. James: Also, do not underestimate the power of ignorance. The mind must be tamed to end the round of samsara. Metta, James Ps. Glad to see you back. The story about your father and the dog was very touching. I hope you are all doing well. 30179 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory In a message dated 2/12/04 12:54:47 PM Central Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: "Are you saying samadhi and the jhanas are the same?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- There's a mass of confusion on these issues about Jhana and Samadhi. Samadhi (Sam+Adhi) is a state of consciousness that Buddha had put at a minor level besides Jhana(Sanskrit: Dhyana). It seems to me that Buddha decided to build or raise up a path entirely distinctive of the Classical Yoga's, but not so divergent at its basic premisses: mindfulness and precepts. He always stated the loss of time to put such practises on the "Top of the Pops" of mind culture. all, Samadhi as "ordinary" concentration is needed for proficiency in almost all activities. One could not do vipassana meditation without some degree of samadhi. This is quite different than saying all jhana levels must be reached for vipassana. jack 30180 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 0:59pm Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Dear jackhat > Samadhi as "ordinary" concentration is needed for proficiency in almost all > activities. One could not do vipassana meditation without some degree of > samadhi. This is quite different than saying all jhana levels must be reached for > vipassana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- You must keep in mind that Buddha raised up His dispensation at Classical India backgrounds. Such "Technical Terms" as Samadhi, Jhana (Dhyana), Dharana - the Sanskrit word for concentration - Nibbana, etc were understood and put in practice by yogis and ascetic persons since long time. Even with the proviso that such Yogi techniques are inutile at the last end, due the Hindu real ideas about these matters, Buddha used at large such terms giving on new meanings and goals for classical doings and words. At these issues I dare to say that Buddha was a genius! Look at the word "Samadhi", for example. At the Classical Yoga it is the last step on practising, even after Dhyana. But what is Buddha saying about it? That all states of mind are aggregates devoid the idea of "Self",so it lacks sense bear up an idea of "Sam+Adhi" - that implies a "to be with" of the self - as the goal. This station is occupied by the Jhanas, that are that contemplation of ultimate realities beyond a personal viewpoint. Taking the Vipassana as a starting point is more feasible to everyone that wants reach the satipatthana or even the other shore: Nina usually says that even the Jhanas are a bit far from the layperson's competence, due the strong mundane attainments of these days. Keeping a good grip on Vipassana can give you all insights for everyday life you need. This opinion of hers I really sign up! Mettaya, Ícaro 30181 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Michael - If I may put in my 2 cents - In a message dated 2/16/04 12:24:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Sarah, > Sarah: > > Simply put, as I understand it, unless there is a clear understanding of > namas and rupas (aka paramattha dhammas) there cannot and will not be a > developed understanding which directly comprehends the conditionality of these same > namas and rupas. In fact it is the very emphasis on 'paramattha dhammas' which > helps us to distinguish them from concepts and which makes > > an understanding of anatta possible. It is the conditioned nature of namas > and rupas which is taught by the Buddha. > > > > Michael: > > The question here is how does the clear understanding of namas and rupas > arise? Since any idea of doing is unacceptable since this entails a self which > is clearly non-existent, it is just a mere concept (paññatti), how are the > necessary mind qualities to see nama rupas in the proper way originated? How > does this 'direct comprehension' take place? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Inasmuch as "things are done" all the time, and insamuch as there is no self to do them (at least as far as I believe, and as believe the Buddha to have taught), no self is required. It is possible for "us" to do things because of volition. --------------------------------------------- > > > > Sarah: > > I think we need to clarify what is meant by 'practice meditation'. I agree > that when there is more understanding of paramattha dhammas, of anatta and > thereby of conditionality, there will be fewer and fewer conditions for there to > be any idea of 'control', 'choice' or a special time and place to 'practice > meditation'. 'Practice' will come down to direct knowledge of dhammas at this > very moment. > > > > Michael: > > I can understand your reluctance in thinking about meditation practice since > this entails someone doing something and this viewed from the perspective of > paramatha/paññatti dichotomy is not acceptable. But again the question is > how does the understanding and direct knowledge you refer to come about? How > are the necessary mind qualities originated for that to happen? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, "things are accomplished" due to intention/volition (together with other conditions), and the bottom line for non-arahants is that intention/volition is normally based in craving. That is where we begin. We start where we are! We find ourselves unhappy and suffering, we hear of the Buddha's teachings to the effect that it is possible for this sorry state of affairs to end, we look into the teaching and the details of practice, and, due to our aversion to suffering (which, itself, is suffering), unless we are truly unwise we try out the program - we give it a shot. With some good results, confidence grows, and along with that, greed (yes, greed!) for more progress, which spurs us to persist. Eventually, with the cultivation of calm, concentration, mindfulness, and some insights, our practicing just becomes "what we do" with less and less goal-orientation, and we gradually come to see that the crux of the matter is not to gain something but to lose something! To let go of our views, our craving to self and things, our desires and aversions - to LET GO. We come eventually to see that there is nothing whatsoever worthy of clinging to - neither presence nor absence, and there results disenchantment, divestment, and freedom. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Metta > > Michael ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30182 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hello Howard, Tks for your comments. The problem is that volition/doing implies an agent. Now, from the perspective of pannatti that agent cannot really exist, it is only a concept in our deluded minds, and it is not wise to feed such a concept as if it were real, and therefore willing/doing is not advisable. That is how I reconcile the idea of pannatti with willing/doing. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Michael - If I may put in my 2 cents - In a message dated 2/16/04 12:24:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Sarah, > Sarah: > > Simply put, as I understand it, unless there is a clear understanding of > namas and rupas (aka paramattha dhammas) there cannot and will not be a > developed understanding which directly comprehends the conditionality of these same > namas and rupas. In fact it is the very emphasis on 'paramattha dhammas' which > helps us to distinguish them from concepts and which makes > > an understanding of anatta possible. It is the conditioned nature of namas > and rupas which is taught by the Buddha. > > > > Michael: > > The question here is how does the clear understanding of namas and rupas > arise? Since any idea of doing is unacceptable since this entails a self which > is clearly non-existent, it is just a mere concept (paññatti), how are the > necessary mind qualities to see nama rupas in the proper way originated? How > does this 'direct comprehension' take place? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Inasmuch as "things are done" all the time, and insamuch as there is no self to do them (at least as far as I believe, and as believe the Buddha to have taught), no self is required. It is possible for "us" to do things because of volition. --------------------------------------------- > > > > Sarah: > > I think we need to clarify what is meant by 'practice meditation'. I agree > that when there is more understanding of paramattha dhammas, of anatta and > thereby of conditionality, there will be fewer and fewer conditions for there to > be any idea of 'control', 'choice' or a special time and place to 'practice > meditation'. 'Practice' will come down to direct knowledge of dhammas at this > very moment. > > > > Michael: > > I can understand your reluctance in thinking about meditation practice since > this entails someone doing something and this viewed from the perspective of > paramatha/paññatti dichotomy is not acceptable. But again the question is > how does the understanding and direct knowledge you refer to come about? How > are the necessary mind qualities originated for that to happen? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, "things are accomplished" due to intention/volition (together with other conditions), and the bottom line for non-arahants is that intention/volition is normally based in craving. That is where we begin. We start where we are! We find ourselves unhappy and suffering, we hear of the Buddha's teachings to the effect that it is possible for this sorry state of affairs to end, we look into the teaching and the details of practice, and, due to our aversion to suffering (which, itself, is suffering), unless we are truly unwise we try out the program - we give it a shot. With some good results, confidence grows, and along with that, greed (yes, greed!) for more progress, which spurs us to persist. Eventually, with the cultivation of calm, concentration, mindfulness, and some insights, our practicing just becomes "what we do" with less and less goal-orientation, and we gradually come to see that the crux of the matter is not to gain something but to lose something! To let go of our views, our craving to self and things, our desires and aversions - to LET GO. We come eventually to see that there is nothing whatsoever worthy of clinging to - neither presence nor absence, and there results disenchantment, divestment, and freedom. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Metta > > Michael ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30183 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Victor Dont worry about me resolving my aksusala actions. ;-) I dont know why you think my question are speculative, I only know speculative questions are origination of the world, whether Buddha exists or dont exist after Nibbana and a few others. Issue like oneself, this is not I, not me, not myself is also been discuss thoroughly in the suttas, so not speculative. If you do not answer my question, that shows the you still do not understand the principle of anatta. Thats show you do not understand how thoughts are develop or how thoughts are abondoned. If you can control thoughts that are Anatta, please do teach me how to do it. As I said in my earlier sutta quote, "perceive self with not-self" is an unwise view :-). To recap the question. k: So what is oneself then ;-) in your own words please. Another question isn't bodily and verbal actions dependent on form. I am sure bodily actions do, maybe some pple can communicate via ESP so there is no need for verbal actions. Or are your telling me, one can separate bodily actions from form. Ken O 30184 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:51pm Subject: compound and concept Hi Nina, I think we need to clarify the difference between a compound (sankhata) and a concept (pannatti). Here are a few preliminary thoughts. A compound arises and ceases and cannot be any other than it is. A concept is a word and its meaning, doesn't arise or cease (so they say), and is open to interpretation. Reality arises in limitless compounds, groups of a limitless number of factors. For example, there is no such reality as one rupa. "One rupa" is merely a concept. Likewise, concept as object of mind-door processes arises and ceases as object in that limitless compound process. "Traffic light", as a concept, refers to the limitless compound that can be experienced through all 6 sense-doors. A traffic light cannot be any other way than it is, but it can be interpreted in innumerable ways. A traffic light is built (sankhara) and it falls apart. It is a compound (sankhata). This is just preliminary. I think we need to be clear on the difference between an open-ended group reality which cannot be experienced all at once and concept. "Really" there is no "at once". "At once" is merely a concept. Larry ------------------- from P.T.S. Dict: "Sankhata (p. 664) [pp. of sankharoti; Sk. sanskrta] 1. put together, compound; conditioned, produced by a combination of causes, "created," brought about as effect of actions in former births S II.26; III.56; Vin II.284; It 37, 88; J II.38; Nett 14; Dhs 1085; DhsA 47. As nt. that which is produced from a cause, i. e. the sankharas S I.112; A I.83, 152; Nett 22." 30185 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/16/04 7:42:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > Tks for your comments. The problem is that volition/doing implies an agent. > Now, from the perspective of pannatti that agent cannot really exist, it is > only a concept in our deluded minds, and it is not wise to feed such a concept > as if it were real, and therefore willing/doing is not advisable. That is > how I reconcile the idea of pannatti with willing/doing. > > Metta > Michael > ======================== &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The thing is, Michael, that volition just does not imply an agent to me. ('Doing' does, but I use the term 'doing' as mere conventional speech - that is why I wrote "things are done" in quotes. More literally I could have written "willed events occur .") As far as I'm concerned, volition/intention arises - conditioned - no differently than thoughts, feelings, sights, and sounds. It's all impersonal, and not requiring an agent at all, at least as far as I'm concerned. Once one has the experience, even for a little while, of everything going on - sights, sounds, thoughts, emotions, and impulses - all the while without the slightest sense of self or personal identity present, the belief in a real agent/self simply disappears, though the *sense* of an agent/self may return afterwards. This has happened to me (i.e. to "me" ;-). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. 30186 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Ken O, There is no need for me to worry about you resolving your unskillful actions since you are the owner of your actions (kamma), heir to your actions, born of your actions, related through your actions, and have your actions as your arbitrator. Whatever you do, for good or for evil, to that will you fall heir. Likewise, I understand that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > Dont worry about me resolving my aksusala actions. ;-) > > I dont know why you think my question are speculative, I only know > speculative questions are origination of the world, whether Buddha > exists or dont exist after Nibbana and a few others. Issue like > oneself, this is not I, not me, not myself is also been discuss > thoroughly in the suttas, so not speculative. If you do not answer > my question, that shows the you still do not understand the principle > of anatta. Thats show you do not understand how thoughts are develop > or how thoughts are abondoned. If you can control thoughts that are > Anatta, please do teach me how to do it. As I said in my earlier > sutta quote, "perceive self with not-self" is an unwise view :-). > > To recap the question. > > k: So what is oneself then ;-) in your own words please. Another > question isn't bodily and verbal actions dependent on form. I am > sure bodily actions do, maybe some pple can communicate via ESP so > there is no need for verbal actions. Or are your telling me, one can > separate bodily actions from form. > > > Ken O 30187 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, As I see it, you are mistaking what the Buddha taught on the conditioned being not self as the idea "there is no self." And it seems to me that this idea is reinforced with a meditative state that you've experienced in which you feel that sights, sounds, thoughts, emotions, and impulses - are all the while without the slightest sense of self or personal identity present. It seems to me that in that meditative state your perception or consciousness is refined and you identify grosser state of consciousness or perception as sense of agent/self. It seems to me that because you've experienced a finer meditative state, with absense of grosser state of consciousness (or perception), you concluded that there is no self. Whatever meditative state, whatever state of consciousness (or perception), it is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [snip] The thing is, Michael, that volition > just does not imply an agent to me. ('Doing' does, but I use the term 'doing' as > mere conventional speech - that is why I wrote "things are done" in quotes. > More literally I could have written "willed events occur > .") As far as I'm concerned, volition/intention arises - conditioned - no > differently than thoughts, feelings, sights, and sounds. It's all impersonal, and > not requiring an agent at all, at least as far as I'm concerned. Once one has > the experience, even for a little while, of everything going on - sights, > sounds, thoughts, emotions, and impulses - all the while without the slightest > sense of self or personal identity present, the belief in a real agent/self > simply disappears, though the *sense* of an agent/self may return afterwards. This > has happened to me (i.e. to "me" ;-). > > With metta, > Howard 30188 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:30pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken H and all, > > Thank you for the reference. > > I couldn't find the discourses: > Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation > and > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses > on internet or in book. > > Anyone knows the link or book title to find them? > Hi Victor, Sorry, I can't help you there. It is a pity that Access-to-insight omits the Abhidhamma as well as any suttas that they can't reconcile with their jhana-centric view of the Dhamma. Even some of the suttas that they do include have very strained translations (as have been discussed on dsg from time to time). I would recommend an understanding of the Dhamma that is consistent with the entire Tipitaka – not with just a selectively abridged version. I suppose you are satisfied with the Ven T's notes on the Susima- sutta (?) Perhaps the arahants' answer, "We are freed by insight," could be explained as meaning "We are freed by insight and jhana," I don't know. I am not qualified to give translations but I would ask; why did the Buddha's explanation, of their answer, explain insight only (not insight and jhana)? Kind regards, Ken H > This is what I found: > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.70 > Susima Sutta > About Susima > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html > > Here is the Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's note: > > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do > not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that > make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply > deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain > in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, 30189 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:39pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear KenH, Suan gave a nice transdlation of a relevant section of the atthakattha to the Susima sutta: Section 70, Susima Sutta Va.n.nanaa, Samyuttanikaaya A.t.thakathaa "Api pana tvam, susimaati idam kasmaa aarabhi? Nijjhaa nakaanam sukkhavipassakabhikkhuunam paaka.takara.nattham. Ayañhettha adhippaayo– na kevalam tvameva nijjhaanako sukkhavipassako, etepi bhikkhuu evaruupaayevaati." "Why did the Buddha start this line "Api pana tvam, susimaati"? He did so in order to show the existence of the monks who are Arahants without jhaanas. This is the paraphrase here – `You are not the only Arahant without jhaanas. These monks are also the same as you.' " This has always been accepted in Theravada tradition; however, as time passes there will be less respect for the ancient monks - and so new interpretations will come in. . RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" <> I suppose you are satisfied with the Ven T's notes on the Susima- > sutta (?) Perhaps the arahants' answer, "We are freed by insight," > could be explained as meaning "We are freed by insight and jhana," I > don't know. I am not qualified to give translations but I would > ask; why did the Buddha's explanation, of their answer, explain > insight only (not insight and jhana)? > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > > > This is what I found: > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.70 > > Susima Sutta > > About Susima > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html > > > > 30190 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:51pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Thank you, Robert (and thank you, Suan); this is very helpful. KenH -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear KenH, > Suan gave a nice transdlation of a relevant section of the > atthakattha to the Susima sutta: > Section 70, Susima Sutta Va.n.nanaa, Samyuttanikaaya A.t.thakathaa > "Api pana tvam, susimaati idam kasmaa aarabhi? Nijjhaa > nakaanam sukkhavipassakabhikkhuunam paaka.takara.nattham. > Ayañhettha adhippaayo– na kevalam tvameva nijjhaanako > sukkhavipassako, etepi bhikkhuu evaruupaayevaati." > > "Why did the Buddha start this line "Api pana tvam, susimaati"? He > did so in order to show the existence of the monks who are Arahants > without jhaanas. This is the paraphrase here – `You are not the only > Arahant without jhaanas. These monks are also the same as you.' " > > This has always been accepted in Theravada tradition; however, as > time passes there will be less respect for the ancient monks - and > so new interpretations will come in. . > 30191 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:08pm Subject: Susima sutta revisited (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi KenH & All, --- kenhowardau wrote: > >Thank you, Robert (and thank you, Suan); this is very helpful. .... Also pls see these posts by Jon & Christine on the Susima Sutta with further commentary notes. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15331.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15332.html In particular, from B.Bodhi’s transl: "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk-pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." JON's summary of Note 212: "Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha)." ***** Metta, Sarah ======= > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear KenH, > > Suan gave a nice transdlation of a relevant section of the > > atthakattha to the Susima sutta: > > Section 70, Susima Sutta Va.n.nanaa, Samyuttanikaaya A.t.thakathaa > > "Api pana tvam, susimaati idam kasmaa aarabhi? Nijjhaa > > nakaanam sukkhavipassakabhikkhuunam paaka.takara.nattham. > > Ayañhettha adhippaayo– na kevalam tvameva nijjhaanako > > sukkhavipassako, etepi bhikkhuu evaruupaayevaati." > > > > "Why did the Buddha start this line "Api pana tvam, susimaati"? He > > did so in order to show the existence of the monks who are Arahants > > without jhaanas. This is the paraphrase here – `You are not the > only > > Arahant without jhaanas. These monks are also the same as you.' " > > > > This has always been accepted in Theravada tradition; however, as > > time passes there will be less respect for the ancient monks - and > > so new interpretations will come in. . 30192 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Dhammasangani, to Icaro Hi Icaro, op 16-02-2004 13:35 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > As a matter of fact that is the way I think about it: if you feel > depressed or amused by mundane traits, a good reading will do it > good... and The Dhammasangani, with its unique style of stating > orderly dhammas and states of consciousness are very precious. N: take the first three words: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata dhamma. All realities are included in here. Avyakata includes: vipaka citta and cetasika and kiriya citta and cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The simplicity is very impressive, and it is so deep. It goes straight to the heart. A bhikkhu said that this is recited very often at ceremonies, but that people do not know the meaning. I am glad that you understand these things and that I can talk to you about this subject. Nina. 30193 From: Eznir Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: Namarupa - A comment Dear Christine C: My limited understanding is that mental formations (sankhara) are 'nama'. Was the word 'rupa' a mistype? If not, could you explain a little more to me where I am confused about how 'ideas' are rupa please? E: Consciousness & Namarupa are mutually dependent. They are like two sticks leaning on each other for support. Neither can stay without the other.(see DN-15) Nama is defined in the Suttas as Feeling, Perception, Intention, Contact & Attention. Rupa is the 4 great elements and their derivatives(see MN-09). Nama is the appearance of Rupa. While Rupa is the substance of Nama. Namarupa together constitute the experience that is cognized which is ones consciousness of the thing. Ideas by itself is Nama, but consciousness of an idea(aha!) is namarupa. The rupa here is a subtle form of an image associated with the idea. This subtle image is the mind-object that the mind is engaged with when contemplating the idea. Each of the five senses has its own object and so does the mind. C: Also - you say "The two leading contenders of Sankhara are Feelings & Perceptions. Which is why they are termed Mental Fabrications." I don't understand this either………… E: Sankhárá has been translated as formations/fabrications/states/ determinations, in most of the Dhamma books that we read. However, the underlying meaning, one would understand of Sankhárá is that, it is a dependent condition – a thing on which some other thing/s depend on. `A' depends on `B'. `B' depends on `C'. `C' depends on `A'. A,B & C depend on each other. Nothing is permanent. Sabbé sankhárá ánicca (Dh 277) – all dependent things are impermanent. The wall depends on the foundation. The roof on the wall. The house on all of these. Each of these depends on the brick, cement, sand, water etc. So in effect everything depends on each other (paticcasamuppanna). This body is also the same. The body depends on in-and-out breathing. Therefore in-an-out breathing is called bodily-fabrications(káya- sankhárá). Speech depends on thinking and pondering. Therefore thinking and pondering are called verbal-fabrications(vaci-sankhárá). The arising of mind depends on feeling and perception. Therefore feeling and perceptions are called mind-fabrications(citta-sankhárá). (see MN-44) Our whole existence is a fabricated processs and the structure of this fabrication is Dependent Origination(Paticcasamuppada). Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Eznir, and all, 30194 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:30pm Subject: Re: What causes Nibbana ? Ignorance causes Nibbana!!! Samyutta Nikaya XII.23 Upanisa Sutta The causes: The knowledge of Ceasing, has its cause, I tell you. It is not without a cause. And what is the cause for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its cause, I tell you. It is not without a cause. And what is its cause? Disgust... Disillusion... Knowledge & vision of things as they really develop ... Concentration... Happiness... Tranquility... Satisfaction... Joy... Faith... Pain... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Constructions... Mental Constructions have their cause, I tell you. They are not without a cause. And what is their cause? Ignorance, it should be said... Thus constructions have ignorance as their cause, consciousness has constructions as its cause, name-&-form has consciousness as its cause, the six sense media have name-&-form as their cause, contact has the six sense media as its cause, feeling has contact as its cause, craving has feeling as its cause, clinging has craving as its cause, becoming has clinging as its cause, birth has becoming as its cause, pain & suffering have birth as their cause, faith of conviction has pain & suffering as its cause, joy has faith as its cause, satisfaction has joy as its cause, tranquility has satisfaction as its cause, happiness has tranquility as its cause, concentration has happiness as its cause, knowledge & vision of things as they really become has concentration as its cause, disillusion has knowledge of things as they become as its cause, disgust has disillusion as its cause, release has disgust as its cause, knowledge of ending has release as its cause. Alternatives: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-023.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-023a.html 30195 From: Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/16/04 11:06:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > As I see it, you are mistaking what the Buddha taught on the > conditioned being not self as the idea "there is no self." > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I really don't think so, Victor. I think that when the Buddha said "Sabbe dhamma anatta", he was saying that all dhammas are not self. I presume that by "sabbe" he meant exactly that. ----------------------------------------------- And it > > seems to me that this idea is reinforced with a meditative state > that you've experienced in which you feel that sights, sounds, > thoughts, emotions, and impulses - are all the while without the > slightest sense of self or personal identity present. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, actually I wasn't meditating at the time, though I admit that the experience was special. The state was not the usual one, but twas no jhana either. I've had a drop of experience with jhanas, and this was not such a state. ----------------------------------------------- It seems to > > me that in that meditative state your perception or consciousness is > refined and you identify grosser state of consciousness or > perception as sense of agent/self. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know why it should seem to be one thing or another to you. What can you base an opinion on? The experience was interior to "me". All that I know was that there was no sense of self or personal identity whatsoever for one or two hours, and this, in fact, was quite terrifying. Other than that, everything about the state was perfectly normal. ------------------------------------------------- It seems to me that because > > you've experienced a finer meditative state, with absense of grosser > state of consciousness (or perception), you concluded that there is > no self. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not the way it was, Victor. Now, I don't absolutely rule out that it was some sort of abnormal, dissociative state. Of course it could be that, but I don't think so. It seemed quite normal in every single respect except that there was no "I", no seeming self, no sense of identity (though the knowledge of the name 'Howard' and all other standard knowledge was there). Also the long run consequences of the experience have been quite beneficial. ----------------------------------------------- > > Whatever meditative state, whatever state of consciousness (or > perception), it is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is > with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: You'll get no argument from me on that! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Victor > =============================== With metta, Howard > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > [snip] > The thing is, Michael, that volition > >just does not imply an agent to me. ('Doing' does, but I use the > term 'doing' as > >mere conventional speech - that is why I wrote "things are done" > in quotes. > >More literally I could have written "willed events occur > >.") As far as I'm concerned, volition/intention arises - > conditioned - no > >differently than thoughts, feelings, sights, and sounds. It's all > impersonal, and > >not requiring an agent at all, at least as far as I'm concerned. > Once one has > >the experience, even for a little while, of everything going on - > sights, > >sounds, thoughts, emotions, and impulses - all the while without > the slightest > >sense of self or personal identity present, the belief in a real > agent/self > >simply disappears, though the *sense* of an agent/self may return > afterwards. This > >has happened to me (i.e. to "me" ;-). > > > >With metta, > >Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30196 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:13pm Subject: References for Victor (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi Victor & All, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: V:> I couldn't find the discourses: > Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation > and > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses > on internet or in book. .... S: I can understand the difficulty as different titles are given by the translators and different reference systems are used. You were referring to Nina’s message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12371 The first one, titled ‘Vangisa sutta’ in the PTS translation of SN can be found in B.Bodhi’s transl (which I think you have)under Vangisasamyutta 8:7, Pavaara.naa, p286 Nina wrote: >We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for which I blame these five hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by insight (alone). " Thus we can conclude, the majority, 320, only developed insight.< ***** S: Bodhi transl: “On that occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi........with a great Sa’ngha of bhikkhus, with five hundred bhikkhus, all of them arahants....... ....... “”There is no deed, Saariputta, bodily or verbal, of these five hundred bhikkhus that I censure. for of these five hundred bhikkhus, Saariputta, sixty bhikkhus are triple-knowledge bearers, sixty bhikkhus are bearers of the six direct knowledges, sixty bhikkhus are liberated in both ways, while the rest are liberated by wisdom.” [516] B.Bodhi’s notes Note 516: “On the triple knowledge (tevijjaa) and the six direct knowledges (cha.labhi~n~naa), see n.395. Those liberated in both ways (ubhatobhaagavimutta) are arahants who attain arahantship along with mastery over the formless meditative attainments. Those liberated by wisdom (pa~n~naavimutta) are arahants who attain the goal without mastering the formless meditations; for formal definitions see MN1 477, 25-478,1 and 12:70”* Note 395: “The three knowledges implied by “triple-knowledge bearers” (tevijjaa) are: the knowledge of the recollection of past abodes, the divine eye (also called the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings), and the knowledge of the destruction of the taints. Together with spiritual powers (iddhi) and the capacity for reading others’ minds, these make five of the six abhi~n~naas Spk says that the sixth, the divine ear, is also implied.” ***** *paññá-vimutti http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pannaa_vimutti.htm “'deliverance through wisdom' (or understanding'), signifies, according to Com. to A.V, 142, the wisdom associated with the fruition of holiness (arahatta-phala). In Pug. 31 and similarly in M. 70, it is said: "A monk may not have reached in his own person the 8 liberations (=jhána, q.v.), but through his wisdom the cankers have come to extinction in him. Such a person is called wisdom-liberated" (paññá-vimutta). - Com. to Pug.: "He may be one of five persons: either a practiser of bare insight (sukkha-vipassako, q.v.), or one who has attained to Holiness after rising from one of the absorptions." See S. XII, 7(). The term is often linked with ceto-vimutti (q.v.), 'deliverance of mind'.” ***** >N: Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses (c): S:I don’t think this is in B.Bodhi’s ‘Numerical Discourses’. Nina’s reference is from the PTS transl of Anguttara Nikaya. >Monks, these four persons are found in the world. What four?....... S:I’ve just found two on line translations at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html Here is the full link & quote for one: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/009-macalavaggo-e2.htm 120 The Numerical Sayings [,PEXT ii 89 “The steadfast recluse, the white lotus-like recluse, the blue lotus-like recluse and among recluses the exquisite recluse. Brethren, who is the steadfast recluse ? Brethren, herein a brother has right views, right aim, right speech, right actions, right means of livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right rapture. This indeed, brethren, is the one called the'steadfast recluse. Brethren, who is the white lotus-like recluse ? Brethren, herein a brother has right views and so forth and also right wisdom and right emancipation, but does not dwell experiencing the eight deliverances in the body.' This indeed,. brethren, is the one called the white lotus-like recluse. Brethren, who is the blue lotus-like recluse ? Brethren. 'herein a brother has right views and so forth and indeed dwells experiencing the eight deliverances in the body. This, brethren, is the one called the blue lotus-like recluse. Brethren, who is among recluses the exquisite recluse ? Brethren, herein a brother being oft invited enjoys robes in plenty and so forth. Verily, brethren, if one should rightly describe it, he would call Myself the exquisite recluse among recluses. Of a truth, brethren, these four persons are to be found existing in the world.” ***** Hope this helps!! Metta, Sarah ===== 30197 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Catching Anger Hi Victor But you still have not answer my question. Ken O 30198 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: Susima sutta revisited (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi KenH & All, > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > >Thank you, Robert > (and thank you, Suan); this is very helpful. > .... > Also pls see these posts by Jon & Christine on the Susima Sutta with > further commentary notes. > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15331.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15332.html > > In particular, from B.Bodhi's transl: > > "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the > stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) > > Note 212 states: > Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge > thus even without concentration. > This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of > concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by > concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration > (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the > advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, > whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of > the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. > > Spk-pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without > previously established (concentration) that has acquired the > characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said > referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight > (vipassanayanika)..." > > JON's summary of Note 212: > "Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the > concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha)." > > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= I see that you provide a link to a post that Jon wrote to me but don't provide any links to my follow up posts. I believe that you are providing only one side of this issue—naughty, naughty…;-)). Let's look at another commentary note to the Susima sutta which hasn't been quoted yet: "'We understand: Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more of this state of being'207 Note 207: Spk: Those bhikkhus, having received a meditation subject from the Teacher, entered upon the three-month rains residence, and during the rains, striving and struggling, they attained arahantship. At the end of the rains they went to the Teacher and informed him of their attainment. When Susima heard about this he thought: "Final knowledge (anna) must be the supreme standard in this Dispensation, the essential personal transmission of the teacher (paramapamanam sarabhuta acariyamutthi, lit. `teacher's fist'). Let me inquire and find out about it." Therefore he approached those bhikkhus. James: So, the bhikkhus in question may not have achieved any particular jhanas, or supernormal powers as a result of jhanas, prior to insight, but they did meditate and they did strive and struggle. Personally, from my experience, I believe that this means they probably practiced vipassana meditation. The very phrase `strive and struggle' means that they didn't experience any of the bliss states associated with jhana. Vipassana meditation can be quite disturbing and difficult, from my experience. Regardless, it should not be implied that they were just all walking along one day, taking note of namas and rupas, and then achieved enlightenment. They basically went on a three-month meditation retreat prior to achieving enlightenment. Metta, James 30199 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > H:> I like our discussion. The problem is lengthiness. ANyway, I will try. ... S:... and I’ll try to keep it shorter and throw out unnecessary items, now I know you like to travel light.....OK, hand-luggage only here;-) ... ---------------- > Htoo: Please see my message in ' Sensing own mind whenever it moves > (07 and 08 ).I am not introducing Atta. > > All beings just going into Nibbana obtain Arahatta Magga. I said for > Savaka Bodhi, Pacceka Bodhi, and Sammasambodhi. I was talking > about 'their' perfection. When we are talking all are conventional. > People frequently mix up Pannatta and Paramattha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Good - sometimes we need to clarify that we are just discussing cittas and cetasikas;-) ..... > S: Why the `pushing to concentration'? I don't follow the > logic here. > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is the matter of choice. Actually all are needed. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: This is when it starts sounding like ‘atta’, when there is a suggestion of ‘pushing’ or ‘choice’. What dhamma is this ‘choice’? ..... > S: ..And if they have heard with this aid, are you sure it is > the `trying'that will help? Think of the Nava suta about the > chickens > and eggs or the Ogha sutta (first sutta in SN) about crossing the > floods which Ken H has just been referring to: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Do you mean not-trying will help achieving? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mean, only the right conditions will bring the right results. Is this ‘trying’ or ‘pushing’ one of them? If so which? Doesn’t is suggest an ‘atta’? ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Panna has to arise when conditions condition its arising. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Exactly. So what are the conditions for its arising? (I’m about to write more on what I read and understand to Michael too). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >S..... If progress on the right track is made, it is > despite these diversions or U-turns, not because of them. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Excellent idea! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: So we both agree it must be the right track without any idea of self from the outset. Good;-) .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Paramattha dhamma cannot be understood fully without enough > panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Well said. Again we come back to the conditions for panna to develop and the importance of understanding paramattha dhamma. I know from your other series and our discussions on ayatanas etc that we fully agree on the latter, so the landmarks on the map are clearly identified;-) .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: ...Namas and rupas are arising and falling all the time and > can be known as they appear to panna right now, one at a time. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: '' can be known ?'' by whom? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: No ‘by whom’. By panna as leader with the support of its co-arising ministers such as sati, samadhi, viriya etc. I think we’re making progress in laying out the map. The landmarks, steps and route are pretty much agreed. We just need to discuss and agree on the conditions for panna to develop so that it can start to make progress and get to know all those paramattha dhammas along the way. Definitely we both agree that any ‘atta’ must be thrown out of the bags at the outset;-)This journey together seems like fun. What do you think? Metta, Sarah ====== 30200 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Susima sutta revisited (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I see that you provide a link to a post that Jon wrote to me but > don't provide any links to my follow up posts. I believe that you > are providing only one side of this issue—naughty, naughty…;-)). .... LOL. Actually, I'm trying to stay out of this thread but just add useful info;-) ;-) Jon's message was addressed to Chris and Swee Boon here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15332.html I didn't even see yours or remember you'd added to the discussion when I looked. Thank you for repeating your extra commentary note and helpful comments below. I hope KenH, Victor and Jack discuss the meaning of 'vipassana meditation' too. I particularly like this comment: J:>Regardless, it should not be > implied that they were just all walking along one day, taking note of > namas and rupas, and then achieved enlightenment. Metta, Sarah p.s Enjoying your discussions with Sukin... ===== > Let's look at another commentary note to the Susima sutta which > hasn't been quoted yet: > > "'We understand: Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, > what had to be done has been done, there is no more of this state of > being'207 30201 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Michael,(p.s to Icaro and Portuguese speakers) Your comments and questions here are very important ones and get to the real roots;-): --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > > The question here is how does the clear understanding of namas and rupas > arise? Since any idea of doing is unacceptable since this entails a self > which is clearly non-existent, it is just a mere concept (paññatti), how > are the necessary mind qualities to see nama rupas in the proper way > originated? How does this 'direct comprehension' take place? .... S: Excellent! As others like Sukin have been stressing: pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha. In other words, clear and correct theoretical right understanding => direct right understanding => realization. This is why it is essential to intellectually understand what namas and rupas are, to hear and comprehend at this level that there is no self (for which we need the Buddha’s teachings) and to know pa~n~natti as mere pannatti as you say. Otherwise, as KenH is stressing, there will be an idea of awareness of ‘the ground’ or a concept of hardness or walking, rather than any direct awareness of namas and rupas. Let me take an easy way and quote sutta extracts from another of Jon’s posts [hope James doesn’t tell me I’m being naughty and one-sided again;-)]: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15353.html Jon>Here are a couple of sutta references: Conditions necessary for the development of insight: AN IV, 246 (Trans: NDB 91) The Growth of Wisdom "These four things, O monks, are conducive to the growth of wisdom. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the good Dhamma, proper attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things are conducive to the growth of wisdom." Conditions necessary for the attainment of enlightenment: SN LV, 5 Sotapattisamyutta (Trans: CDB 55.05) "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry."< ***** > Michael: > > I can understand your reluctance in thinking about meditation practice > since this entails someone doing something and this viewed from the > perspective of paramatha/paññatti dichotomy is not acceptable. But again > the question is how does the understanding and direct knowledge you > refer to come about? How are the necessary mind qualities originated for > that to happen? .... Your comments and the questions are good ones. Thankyou. Let’s put it this way. Before we heard about the Buddha’s teachings (directly or indirectly) there was no consideration about anatta or about dhammas. We started to read suttas and various books and consider these questions more carefully. Then by reading and discussing on DSG or elsewhere more about what namas and rupas are, how they are distinct from pannatti and so on, the intellectual understanding began to grow and with it an intellectual understanding of anatta, conditions, the khandhas and so on. Of course, we’re all very much at kindergarden level here as Nina and I always joke together or as Htoo and I are discussing, the map isn’t even laid out yet. Still, this intellectual right understanding becomes more and more firmly established and is less and less likely to be swayed by other arguments. Slowly it becomes a foundation for occasional moments of sati to arise and directly be aware of a nama or a rupa (no selection, no choice of object)and this in turn is a condition for more panna to develop which begins to directly understand namas and rupas. It develops naturally and gradually by itself with the right indgredients in place like a spiral (thanks RobK) of intellectual and direct understanding. Of course there is lots and lots of forgetfulness and akusala in between. Gradually, however, there are fewer conditions for wrong view to arise which takes any progress or practice for self or which has any idea about ‘choice’ or pannatti being real or conditioned. Michael, I’d be most grateful to hear any further comments or questions on these aspects. I appreciate your ‘no stone uncovered’ approach. Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, here is Michael’s website if you didn’t find it and ever wish to read some dhamma in your native (far more poetic)language: http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/ (revised on 14th February, 2004 - another good Valentine message example for you;-)) Evitar todo o mal, cultivar o bem, purificar a própria mente: esse é o ensinamento do Buda Dhp 183. ====== 30202 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Philip, It’s good to hear from you again...pls keep contributing your comments and questions. --- Philip wrote: > > I see sudden outbursts of anger as the greatest danger on the path. .... That’s interesting. On the other hand, as Larry hinted, it is attachment(lobha) which is given as the cause of suffering. Without attachment, would there be any outbursts of anger? In particular, I tend to see ‘wrong view’ as the greatest danger. .... > I have consciouly been cultivating Upekkha in the belief, probably > mistaken, the equanimity shield me in a necessary and hopefully > temporary way from the stimula that have brought on my outbursts in > the past. I call them "regrettable incidents" and have thankfully > seen them decrease in number and intensity over the last year or so. .... I’m very glad to read this. The reason I mentioned wrong view is because while we take self and people to exist, while we justify anger or cling to an idea that the causes are ‘external’ in some way, the tenacious roots remain in spite of any lulls or temporary reprieves. Of course, even when all wrong views have been eradicated (by sotapanna), dosa (aversion) continues to arise whilst there is still clinging to sensory objects, but at least the cause of suffering is understood and it’s just a matter of time before all defilements are eradicated by this stage. .... > Reading Ayyka Khema the other day, I was interested when she said > that though we know greed to be undesirable, as one of the > hindrances, its presence in our lives is only removed by the most > advanced of practicioners so it might be best to accept its presence > and at least be sure that it is directed in as wholesome a direction > as possible. ..... I agree with these comments with the possible exception of any idea of ‘directing’ attachment in ‘as wholesome a direction as possible’. .... > I wonder if the same can be said of the energy of anger within us > and ask, as a beginner, whether directing it in a skillful direction > might be possible? ..... The reason I question this is because it suggests that ‘we’ can direct anything and that there can be a skillful direction for anger or greed which is very questionable I think. Perhaps you’d care to elaborate further. Metta, Sarah p.s How did you get on with your reading on Paramis (Perfections)? ====== 30203 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Sarah, Sarah: I mean, only the right conditions will bring the right results. Is this `trying' or `pushing' one of them? If so which? Doesn't is suggest an `atta'? James: Sarah, could you please explain in detail, in your own words, why `trying', or `striving', or `effort' suggests an `atta', a self? Just as `smoke' would suggest a `fire', and one can be linked to the other, please explain why `trying' would suggest a self and how they are linked. I would like your own words as explanation since this is obviously an idea that you have. I ask this because it is difficult to hold intelligent discussions about anything unless we are familiar with the concepts that we are each using. Metta, James 30204 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Dhammasangani, to Icaro Dear Nina & Icaro, --- nina van gorkom wrote: I: > > good... and The Dhammasangani, with its unique style of stating > > orderly dhammas and states of consciousness are very precious. > N: > take the first three words: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata > dhamma. > All realities are included in here. Avyakata includes: vipaka citta and > cetasika and kiriya citta and cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The simplicity > is > very impressive, and it is so deep. It goes straight to the heart. ... S: This is followed by the following words to show that all states are accompanied by pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling. (hope I’ve changed the symbols correctly??) “2. sukhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma. dukkhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma. adukkhamasukhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma.” ***** There have been discussions about ‘cutting the chain at feeling’ and so on, but we learn that feeling arises with every citta in all planes of existence, including in the cases of the Buddha and arahants. We pay so much attention to pleasant feelings, not realizing that the attachment and seeking of these feelings only leads to unpleasant feelings;-). Nina, it’s super to have you back on line. Thank you for all the excellent detail on bodily and verbal intimation (and Larry for your prompts and Vism extracts). Fascinating: “It is the only rupa lasting for just one moment of citta.” So very subtle and so very different from our ideas of what it is - a story about intimation or a traffic signal;-);-) Metta, Sarah p.s I look forward to your report on the discussions in Thailand. Also enjoy your reports on ‘Pa’ - “Still he and me, and it can condition dosa”;-) ====================================== 30205 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Susima sutta revisited (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi Sarah, Sarah: LOL. Actually, I'm trying to stay out of this thread but just add useful info;-) ;-) James: hehehe…well, sorry to tell you this, but if you add useful info you are automatically in the thread. ;-)) Sarah: Jon's message was addressed to Chris and Swee Boon here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15332.html I didn't even see yours or remember you'd added to the discussion when I looked. James: Hmmm…maybe I am going crazy?? ;-)) No, actually you provided two links in post 30191. I was referring to the first link where Jon is writing to me. Maybe you should check again. Sarah: Thank you for repeating your extra commentary note and helpful comments below… I particularly like this comment:… Enjoying your discussions with Sukin... James: Well, aren't you just full of compliments! ;-) Don't lather on too many; I might just get a big head! LOL! Metta, James 30206 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:44am Subject: [dsg] Re:_Dhammasangani, to Icaro -Dear Nina: > take the first three words: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata dhamma. > All realities are included in here. Avyakata includes: vipaka citta and > cetasika and kiriya citta and cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The simplicity is > very impressive, and it is so deep. It goes straight to the heart. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Many years ago, when I was reading the files of an obscure Australian FTP Server ( that's no more online), I read by the first time the initial Chapters of Dhammasangani, translated in an English worse than mine! WOW! That was the answer I was belonging for! It was almost so thrilling as my first reading text on English: The immortal Claremont/Byrne "Elegy" (THE UNCANNY X-MEN #100). At that occasion, armed only with an English-Portuguese dictionary I begun my journey towards English Language. And now I had got in my hands the ultimate Buddhistic doctrine! I picked up all other Abhidhamma texts on that old FTP server - resumes and textnotes of Dhammasangani,The Vibhanga and others ( curiously ended at the Puggala) and begin eagerly reading them all. The Dhammasangani is being untill now my favourite reading (besides X-MEN, of course!), due its concise and sure remarks on true Buddhistic Doctrine. So Avyakatta includes the Vipaka Citta, Cetasika, Kiriya, Rupa and Nibbana! This is suggested at the last stanzas of the Potthaka, about what are the hetu and ahetu ultimate Dhammas! Avyakatta Dhammas then point towards directly to ultimate realities! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > A bhikkhu said that this is recited very often at ceremonies, but that > people do not know the meaning. I am glad that you understand these things > and that I can talk to you about this subject. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Nina! You are THE BEST! Chris Claremont was my initiator on English language...and I never learnt the name of that FTP Server's webmaster!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30207 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:48am Subject: Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi James, James: > I'm sorry, I am having a difficult time following your train of > thought here. Sukin: Sorry about that. Hope I can at least give the excuse that I was very tired all day yesterday, for lack of sleep the night before that. Anyway I was trying to express my subjective experiences with the main intention to show you that I believe many of us here, have come to the conclusion we have not by virtue of theory alone, but also because of experience. How do I know that? Because the way they describe their experiences, is what I have seen too. Actually I don't like to talk about my experience, for the reason that I know that it is mostly on the `thinking' level only. The inferences and deductions could well be `self-serving'. There is therefore always some lingering doubt, though I may express myself quite assertively. The doubt however concerns the depth of understanding and not so much about the rightness/wrongness of my position. Surely when I face contrary views which don't click, I can't help but dismiss them. This doesn't mean that there is little of value stated. After all the difference basically involves only the idea of `practice', so other things must be useful. :-) Besides the tendency to `form' and `cling' to positions is indeed very strong, so even those I don't agree with can and do give a wake-up signal. ;-) Moreover, the diversity of views expressed is what makes the list interesting, isn't it? For this reason, your Sutta reference below is most appreciated. James: Let me just quote from the Buddha where he said that > it is wrong to have the view "There is no self": > > "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view > arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & > established, or the view I have no self ... or the view It is > precisely by means of self that I perceive self ... or the view It is > precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self ... or the view > It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in > him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very > self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the > ripening of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is > constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay > just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a > wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a > fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run- of- > the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, > lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, > from suffering & stress." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html Sukin: James, I almost never hear myself saying, "There is no self". Believe it or not, I find myself treating experiences as "not-self" as you are always suggesting [btw I loved your `M.M.O.B story ;-)]. However I see this position to not be in one of the six positions stated in the Sutta. In the Sutta it seems (I admit to having only a vague understanding and feeling unsure) the problem is the `self- reference' related to the different views, while "There is no self" could be just a philosophical position which works in the background guiding one's experience. How an individual is influenced by such a philosophical position depends on his understanding of the Buddha's teachings as a whole. "All Dhammas are Not-self" is also a philosophical position isn't it, at least while one is still ignorant of those `dhammas'? I think it is important to carefully study the words of the Teachings in order not to infer the wrong meaning. But once the meaning has been understood, I think it more important to apply that understanding in daily life. Meanwhile we continue to study more and more, and be concerned with `understanding' better. There may be occasions when one has to state a position to counter other positions, but this does not mean that it becomes a `thicket of views'. On the other hand, someone may be so particular about every phrasing, yet he is oblivious to the background noise which is his wrong view of reality. I have to admit though, that attachment and ignorance is so pervasive, and there is a Thai saying, "An axe cuts everything else but itself". So it is easy for me to talk about the possible fault of others, but I can't see my own. That is why it is good to be here. >Metta, James Metta, Sukin. 30208 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:49am Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, > > 1. All realities are to be known, and that they can be known only > > when they are experienced, which is in the `present' moment. > > 2. In reality, there is just this present moment. Any idea of time, > > place and `effort' on `self's' part is just mental projection. > > > ====================== > I think that what you say here is true .. yet, in other senses not. It > *is* ultimately true, and the Zen folks would concur with that. Ultimately > there is nothing that happens, nothing that changes - it is all *now* and it is > all objective, impersonal, and "such". That, however, is the "view from > nibbana", and we are not "there". > From "where we are," though there may only be "now", that "now" is not > instantaneous, and during that "now" there may be exercised Right Effort, > including guarding the senses, not initiating what is harmful, cutting short > whatever harmful state has commenced, initiating what is useful, and prolonging > any useful state that has commenced. =========================== For the enlightened or for us what does the job of `understanding' is panna. It is panna with other kusala cetasikas which leads to `guarding the senses' and so on, not akusala. In principle we all appreciate the value of kusala and see the danger of akusala, but this does not mean that sati and panna will always be there to do the function of guarding the senses. Our accumulated ignorance and wrong view is so great that we either catch a reality when it has long fallen away, or we misunderstand it totally. Our practice is so influenced by our own very vague ideas of what is going on. Sati is not-self and so is effort. And the Right Effort must be with Sati, no? And when sati does arise, there already is guarding of the senses. Is there any need to do more? Can anyone do anything ?! > With metta, > Howard Metta, Sukin Ps: I haven't had the time to look up your Suttas yet. Having difficulty just keeping up with the postings here. 30209 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Susima sutta revisited (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi James (Victor & All), --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: hehehe…well, sorry to tell you this, but if you add useful > info you are automatically in the thread. ;-)) .... S: So I see.... .... > James: Hmmm…maybe I am going crazy?? ;-)) No, actually you provided > two links in post 30191. I was referring to the first link where Jon > is writing to me. Maybe you should check again. .... S: My mistake. Note: I am sometimes wrong;-) I thought I had given these links and avoided your name, LOL;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15272.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15332.html (Was rushing then and still am. Jon wrote two messages on the same day under the same thread. One of these is Christine's -- I hope -- as intended). .... > James: Well, aren't you just full of compliments! ;-) Don't lather on > too many; I might just get a big head! LOL! .... Oh, just enjoy the lull before the storm;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I like your Qu in another post- will get back later. =================================== 30210 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: References for Victor (was: the self... how?/Jack) Hi Sarah, Thank you for the info. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & All, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > V:> I couldn't find the discourses: > > Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation > > and > > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses > > on internet or in book. > .... > S: I can understand the difficulty as different titles are given by the > translators and different reference systems are used. You were referring > to Nina's message: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12371 > > The first one, titled `Vangisa sutta' in the PTS translation of SN can be > found in B.Bodhi's transl (which I think you have)under Vangisasamyutta > 8:7, Pavaara.naa, p286 > [snip] 30211 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:28am Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken H, It is OK, Ken. Thank you for providing the reference anyway. Did you read the discourse Anguttara Nikaya IX.44 Paññavimutti Sutta Released Through Discernment ? Let me quote the discourse as follows: [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." What do you think: To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment? Let me know how you understand it. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H and all, > > > > Thank you for the reference. > > > > I couldn't find the discourses: > > Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation > > and > > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of > Recluses > > on internet or in book. > > > > Anyone knows the link or book title to find them? > > > > Hi Victor, > > Sorry, I can't help you there. It is a pity that Access-to- insight > omits the Abhidhamma as well as any suttas that they can't reconcile > with their jhana-centric view of the Dhamma. Even some of the > suttas that they do include have very strained translations (as have > been discussed on dsg from time to time). I would recommend an > understanding of the Dhamma that is consistent with the entire > Tipitaka – not with just a selectively abridged version. > > I suppose you are satisfied with the Ven T's notes on the Susima- > sutta (?) Perhaps the arahants' answer, "We are freed by insight," > could be explained as meaning "We are freed by insight and jhana," I > don't know. I am not qualified to give translations but I would > ask; why did the Buddha's explanation, of their answer, explain > insight only (not insight and jhana)? > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > > > This is what I found: > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.70 > > Susima Sutta > > About Susima > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html > > > > Here is the Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's note: > > > > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that > a > > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do > > not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas > that > > make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they > simply > > deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they > remain > > in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, 30212 From: Eznir Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:37am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Dear Christine, C: Wouldn't any new kamma formation already be created during the 'flare-up' of initial emotion. Intention is Action, said Lord Buddha. If one is crafty, thinks about cheating people always, and when the opportunity arises, he cheats. A normal honest person cannot even imagine as to how he escaped all those surveillance cameras when he is shop-lifting, say. This is an unwholesome act. This same principle works for wholesome acts too. Say, when a person takes the 5-precepts thrice every day, morning, evening and night just before he goes to sleep. If he sincerely continues this practice for some days without a break, one would find that a gradual change of attitude is beginning to occur in him. Earlier, he wouldn't think twice before killing a mosquito. The moment it bites him, the action is reflexive and the insect is dead. But now, there is a reminder to him that he is `under oath'(to himself), and he just blows the insect away! Thereafter, blowing the insect when bitten, becomes a reflexive action! And so with the other items in the precept. Even a `white lie' is mindfully avoided with wisdom! The important thing here is the reminder. This is mindfulness in the making! One is left with the option of either killing the insect or not, either lying or not, either stealing or not before the action takes effect. One is in control of ones actions outwardly. This virtue, backed with daily meditation of at least an hour is even more effective, because then the attitudinal changes begin to occur in the mind. Bodily pain is the first hurdle one overcomes. In a mundane sense, ones threshold to bear pain increases. One observes the emotions of ones likes and dislikes to ones bodily feelings with detachment. This helps one to cope with unpleasant situations in ones normal day to day living. So much so that one begins to stay aloof with wisdom. C: But why is there no awareness earlier, at the very time things are occuring? E: As you said, your mind was preoccupied with the remark made by somebody which triggered the thought of prejudiced views towards the other group which triggered the anger that overcame you which triggered you to...... and so on and so forth our minds go mentally proliferating thoughts which culminated in verbal action in this case! Fortunately not in "………wrong speech - though the tone and cadence were evidence of irritation, as was body posture". So there was bodily intimidation also in addition to verbal action! In this way, reflect on the Dhamma vis-à-vis our day to day events, during quiet moments or when you go to sleep, and make a determination that the next time when similar incidents occur the outcome would be "the wish that I had been equanimous, that it would have been kinder to say nothing" as you put it, eh! In fact one can observe this mental proliferation thing happening in ones mind, mostly when ones meditation is not successful. These are the hindrances that Lord Buddha talks of in the Satipattana Sutta under "observation of the mental contents of the mind". See how impermanent the "Tenseness was evident, the atmosphere could have been cut with a knife" situation was. Because "Within ten minutes or so, amends were made, hugs all round, casual chatting re- started". Likewise, every moment we face are dependent on various conditions and so is our body. "The worlds a stage, we are merely actors playing a part in it"(Forgive me Mr. Shakespeare if the wordings are wrong but the idea is there, I suppose!) Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, 30213 From: Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack all I think Ken challenged my statement that many believe samadhi and vipassana are not separate in the Buddha's teachings but split out by later commentaries. Here is a good article on this by Thanissari /Bhikkhu. Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. They are both parts of a single whole. Every time he explains mindfulness and its place in the path, he makes it clear that the purpose of mindfulness practice is to lead the mind into a state of Right Concentration -- to get the mind to settle down and to find a place where it can really feel stable, at home, where it can look at things steadily and see them for what they are. Part of the "two practices" issue centers on how we understand the word jhana, which is a synonym for Right Concentration. Many of us have heard that jhana is a very intense trance-like state that requires intense staring and shutting out the rest of the world. It sounds nothing like mindfulness at all. But if you look in the Canon where the Buddha describes jhana, that's not the kind of state he's talking about. To be in jhana is to be absorbed, very pleasurably, in the sense of the whole body altogether. A very broad sense of awareness fills the entire body. One of the images the Buddha used to describe this state is that of a person kneading water into dough so that the water permeates throughout the flour. Another is a lake in which a cool spring comes welling up and suffuses the entire lake. Now, when you're with the body as a whole, you're very much in the present moment. You're right there all the time. As the Buddha says, the fourth jhana -- in which the body is filled with bright awareness -- is the point where mindfulness and equanimity become pure. So there should be no problem in combining mindfulness practice with the whole-body awareness that gets very settled and still. In fact, the Buddha himself combines them in his description of the first four steps of breath meditation: (1) being aware of long breathing, (2) being aware of short breathing, (3) being aware of the whole body as you breathe in and breathe out, and then (4) calming the sensation of the breath within the body. This, as the texts tell us, is basic mindfulness practice. It's also a basic concentration practice. You're getting into the first jhana -- Right Concentration -- right there, at the same time that you're practicing Right Mindfulness. The whole article is found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html jack 30214 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: S: Good - sometimes we need to clarify that we are just discussing cittasand cetasikas;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not exactly. I am talking how to get through the samsara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is the matter of choice. Actually all are needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: This is when it starts sounding like `atta', when there is a suggestion of `pushing' or `choice'. What dhamma is this `choice'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please ride on words and do not look at words. Hermit Sumedho made a choice to become a Sammasambuddha. He as a hermit at that time had enough perfection to get through the samsara. Here are many atta. Hermit atta. Sumedho atta. choice atta. and endless atta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Panna has to arise when conditions condition its arising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Exactly. So what are the conditions for its arising? (I'm about to write more on what I read and understand to Michael too). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'conditions' ? I think many atta will follow behind the explanation of conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: So we both agree it must be the right track without any idea of self from the outset. Good;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no Htoo Naing, there is no Sarah, there is no DSG. There is no one discussing. There is no one responding. There is no 'we'. As soon as idea of self is lost then ... clear? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Well said. Again we come back to the conditions for panna to develop and the importance of understanding paramattha dhamma. I know from your other series and our discussions on ayatanas etc that we fully agree on the latter, so the landmarks on the map are clearly identified;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am just collecting materials, tools, equipment and other things that might be needed during the journey. I have not even drawn out the map from the drawer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: '' can be known ?'' by whom? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: No `by whom'. By panna as leader with the support of its co-arising ministers such as sati, samadhi, viriya etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I already know the answer you will reply in advance. You are coming in and going out of the boundries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I think we're making progress in laying out the map. The landmarks, steps and route are pretty much agreed. We just need to discuss and agree on the conditions for panna to develop so that it can start to make progress and get to know all those paramattha dhammas along the way. Definitely we both agree that any `atta' must be thrown out of the bags at the outset;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as you have thrown it away, then ... clear? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: This journey together seems like fun. What do you think? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not thinking but I am seeing 'Atta'. Atta of fun. :-)) Be happy all the time. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ====== 30215 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear James and Sarah, James. You see the point. So I said please ride on words and do not look at words. I will be looking forward to Sarah's reply to this matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: I would like your own words as explanation since this is obviously an idea that you have. >I ask this because it is difficult to hold intelligent discussions about anything unless we are familiar with the concepts that we are each using. Metta, James 30216 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:26am Subject: Computer Problems Hi All, There is a mechanical problem with my laptop at the electrical connection. They say that it will take a few days to a week to be fixed. During that time I will have limited access to the Internet so I won't be able to participate in discussions. I will try to catch up later. Metta, James 30217 From: Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 2/17/04 5:50:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > And when sati does arise, there already is guarding of the > senses. Is there any need to do more? Can anyone do anything ?! > ======================== There is certainly no "one" to do anything, but volition arises and has effect. As to whether there is need to do more, the Buddha said there is. In guarding the senses, not only is one to be mindful, which, of course, is a sine qua non, but also cut short harmful states, and initiate and encourage useful ones - all calling for exercise of volition (but not by any "one"). There must be the original intention to be mindful (watchful) and to act quickly and subtly in infuencing what transpires mentally. The mental flow can be influenced. Were that impossible, the Buddha would not have urged his followers accordingly. Not infrequently, the Buddha said that various things were possible to be accomplished, and were they not he would not have urged his followers to attempt them. One only need read the suttas, not just a chosen few that seem to support preconceived positions, to see this. (This, BTW, is something we all do - pick and choose among the suttas to reinforce our own positions. In 45 years of teaching, to a variety of listeners with a variety of needs, the Buddha left a legacy of teachings in which one can find almost anything one hopes to find, and it is important, I think, to make the effort - yes, actually make the effort! ;-)) - to avoid being overly selective, but to see the full breadth of the vast river of teaching and all its substreams.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30218 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hello Sarah, Tks for your reply. Very clear. Maybe you can expand a little bit on one thing you said. Sarah: This intellectual right understanding becomes more and more firmly established and is less and less likely to be swayed by other arguments. Slowly it becomes a foundation for occasional moments of sati to arise and directly be aware of a nama or a rupa (no selection, no choice of object)and this in turn is a condition for more panna to develop which begins to directly understand namas and rupas. It develops naturally and gradually by itself with the right indgredients in place like a spiral (thanks RobK) of intellectual and direct understanding. Michael: I can relate to your description and I like the idea of a spiral. But the key passage here is "the intellectual right understanding slowly becomes a foundation for sati". Why slowly? And what makes the intellectual understanding evolve into sati? How is that feat achieved? What are the 'right ingredients' you refer to? And again how to avoid the trap of a self doing something while there is no self at all, it is just a mere concept of fantasy. Metta Michael 30219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, what strange language is this? Nina. op 17-02-2004 02:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 30220 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Larry, op 17-02-2004 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > A compound arises and ceases and cannot be any other than it is. A > concept is a word and its meaning, doesn't arise or cease (so they say), > and is open to interpretation. > > Reality arises in limitless compounds, groups of a limitless number of > factors. For example, there is no such reality as one rupa. "One rupa" > is merely a concept. N: sankhata: it is sometimes translated as compounded, constructed. As I see it, it means: what has arisen because of conditions. Citta, cetasika and rupa are sankhara dhammas and also sankhata dhammas. These meanings are very close. Sankhata : it has arisen already and thus it has to fall away. Each rupa is a dhamma, a reality. Of course, it never arises alone. But we can consider one rupa and study its characteristic, function, etc. Rupa is rupa, never a concept. L: Likewise, concept as object of mind-door processes > arises and ceases as object in that limitless compound process. N: As you also just said: concept does not arise or cease, it is not a reality, only an object of thought. People think that it arises and falls, but, it is the thinking itself, a citta that arises and falls. That makes them believe that the object of thinking also arises and falls. L: "Traffic light", as a concept, refers to the limitless compound that can > be experienced through all 6 sense-doors. N: Does Traffic light impinge on eyesense? Does it impinge on the bodysense? On the nose? On the tongue? Only colour is experienced through eyes, not the traffic light. L: A traffic light cannot be any > other way than it is, but it can be interpreted in innumerable ways. A > traffic light is built (sankhara) and it falls apart. It is a compound > (sankhata). N:Let us go back to the dictionary:Sankhata (p. 664) [pp. of sankharoti; Sk. sanskrta] > 1. put together, compound; conditioned, produced by a combination of > causes, "created," brought about as effect of actions in former births. This is said only of nama and rupa.< conditioned, produced by a combination of > causes>. Thus, we have the eight inseparable rupas which always arise together. They can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature pr nutrition. Citta and cetasikas arise together and they condition each other by way of manifold conditions. The dict refers to S II, 26. In this sutta the Dependent Origination is explained. The word sankhata is used, translated as conditioned. Of all the factors of the Dependent Origination it is said: anicca.m sa"nkhata.m, paticcasamupa.n.na.m (arisen causally) khayadhamma.m (is by nature withering away) vayadhamma.m (passing away) viraagadhamma.m (fading away) nirodhadhamma.m (coming to an end). This concerns paramattha dhammas, even where the words birth and death are used. Touch the traffic light, touch the table. What appears: hardness, a rupadhamma. Realities do not change, no matter how we call them. Hardness is hardness, no matter it is hardness of a table or of a traffic light. Seeing is seeing, no matter a human sees or a dog sees. No thinking, no words are needed in order to experience reality directly. Do you have to think, this is hard? Do you have to think, this is sound? Through the earsense just sound is experienced, and at the moment of hearing there is no defining yet what sound it is. Sankharadhammas and sankhata dhammas do not have an owner, they cannot be controlled, they proceed according to their own conditions. This subject is difficult and we are bound to have doubts so long as sati sampaja~n~na does not directly know and experience one nama at a time and one rupa at a time. Only then it will be clear what a concept is, and what a reality. As James said, we should not underestimate the power of ignorance. Spot on! Ignorance of what? Of paramattha dhammas. I exchanged views with my Thai friends and we all found it difficult to know when there is thinking and when direct awareness. Nama and rupa are realities, but, so long as we are only thinking about them, we think of the concepts of nama and rupa, the words or terms. A word can represent a reality or an illusion, that which is not real. The characteristics of nama and rupa are not yet directly known. This is very common and not surprising. I can only try to give some basic explanation of the difference between reality and concept, only on the theoretical or conceptual level. Please, help me with your questions to explain this subject better. It is a basic subject. I like what Sukin wrote to James: <...we may have an understanding of seeing and visible object or know heat and cold. This may all be on the `conceptual' level and the important thing is, this is to be *known* too. These concepts are after all grounded on actual experiences. Can we deny the reality of seeing, hearing and thinking? It would be absurd to doubt their existence on the level of view at least, no!? It is important to understand that the `practice' starts from here. Know reality as reality (call it paramattha or not) and concept as concept. If the practice is right, then there is no idea of wanting the experience to be anything other than what it is. If concepts are not known, then there is no end to where it can lead us.> Howard, you wrote: what doorway is this or that dhamma experienced? ======================== H: I think this is very true and very important! I also think that when that practice is done regularly it is *striking* how often the true answer is "the mind door". N: I used to believe that when I was thinking, I knew that this was through the mind-door, that I understood what the mind-door was. Now I know that this is not true. It seems to me that I can see and hear at the same time, but I know that this is wrong. Seeing experiences visible object and after seeing visible object (that rupa) is experienced through the mind-door. There are mind-door processes in between seeing and hearing, and bhavangacittas, the processes are clearly separated. Only when the first stage of tender insight arises is it clear what a mind-door process is. Not before that. Now we mix everything and the sense-door processes seem to hide the mind-door process. We do not really know what the mind-door is. By the way I understood that you think rupas such as eyesense are concepts. But the blind cannot see. A rupic condition is necessary for seeing. And that is eyesense. This is physical, thus rupa. You think that all rupas are concepts? Well, so long as they are not directly known we think of them on the conceptual level. Nina. 30221 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:31am Subject: smile of the Buddha Dear Ken Ong, In the Co to the Middle Length Sayings, sutta 81, on Ghatikara we read that Buddhas smile with five kinds of citta: one ahetuka and four sahetuka kiriyacittas acoompanied by somanassa: two of these are with panna and two without. But as you quoted in Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma chapter six number 34, these are preceded by the Buddha's omniscience. Also arahats and Buddhas have mahakiriyacittas without panna. I wrote before on the Buddha's omniscience (see archives). The processes of cittas of a Buddha also run according to citta nyama, a fixed order. Whatever subject a Buddha directs his attention to he can know with omniscience whenever he wishes. But he can know only one object at a time, citta nyama. There are also moments of citta unaccompanied by wisdom. This does not contradict his capacity of omniscience. Nina > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > >> The smiling cittas is from the commentary to the Summary of the >> Topics of Abhidhamma chapter six number 34 >> 30222 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:34am Subject: [dsg] Re:_Dhammasangani, to Icaro Dear Nina and all Nina: "Avyakata includes: vipaka citta and > > cetasika and kiriya citta and cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The > simplicity is > > very impressive, and it is so deep. It goes straight to the heart." > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- To be more precise, you Dhamma fellows must check it out the Dhammasangani's Book Four- Tika Atthuddhaaro, stanza 1386: "Katame Dhamma Avyakatta ? Catusu Bhumisu Vipako, Tasu Bhumisu Kiriyaavyakatta, Rupanca, Nibbanca - ime Dhamma Avyakatta." I was already said - if you all didn't forgot it - Nina is THE BEST!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30223 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Dear Nina: > Hi Howard, > what strange language is this? > > > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ------------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps he is reading the Digha Nikaya chewing up donuts! Yuuum Yuuum Yaaam Yaaam... Mettaya, Ícaro 30224 From: Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/17/04 1:31:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > what strange language is this? > Nina. > op 17-02-2004 02:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; > > > ========================== It's called Ampersand. It was the ancient naga language! ;-)) With metta, Howard P.S. This has happened on a couple of recent posts of mine. I don't know why. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30225 From: Eddie Lou Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: Apology Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Upasaka, That is courage but I had learnt (correct me!) Anger is ONLY eliminated when one reached Arahantship. I also lately learnt from here DSG that there can be no more additional Arahant at this stage of Buddha Sasana. Hope my interpretation is correct (correct me!) Thanks. Also my common sense told me Mana (Ego or Self Esteem??) is closely tied to Anger. At least a big ingredient. I read this also in DSG and Interesting enought lately there is this interesting related thread - Catching Anger. Thanks all, for all the wisdom revealed to me. Metta, Eddie --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor (and all) - > > I am writing with regard to my previous reply > to you on this thread, > Victor. It was a reply made in anger, and I > apologize for that. I do not wish [Snipped] > With metta, > Howard 30226 From: Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/17/04 1:37:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Howard, you wrote: > >what doorway is this or that dhamma experienced? > ======================== > H: I think this is very true and very important! I also think that > when > that practice is done regularly it is *striking* how often the true answer > is > "the mind door". > N: I used to believe that when I was thinking, I knew that this was through > the mind-door, that I understood what the mind-door was. Now I know that > this is not true. It seems to me that I can see and hear at the same time, > but I know that this is wrong. Seeing experiences visible object and after > seeing visible object (that rupa) is experienced through the mind-door. > There are mind-door processes in between seeing and hearing, and > bhavangacittas, the processes are clearly separated. Only when the first > stage of tender insight arises is it clear what a mind-door process is. Not > before that. Now we mix everything and the sense-door processes seem to hide > the mind-door process. We do not really know what the mind-door is. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't say that I know or that I don't know. My only point was that when our experience goes unexamined it seems that only obvious thoughts, feelings, inclinations, emotions etc are experienced by the mind. When we "see" a tree or "hear" an orchestra, we think we are seeing and hearing. My point is that we do not ordinarily realize how much the mind is involved in our experiencing. We grossly underestimate the role of mind. ---------------------------------------------------------- > By the way I understood that you think rupas such as eyesense are concepts. > But the blind cannot see. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly true. Likewise those who don't have a car cannot drive. (But cars are not rupas.) ----------------------------------------------------------- A rupic condition is necessary for seeing. And> > that is eyesense. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt several rupic conditions are necessary for seeing. Where is the eyesense you are talking about? How and where is it observed - how is it to be known? Certainly there is the *capacity* to see, but such capacity is nothing more than a bunch of conditions being in effect - some positive, some negative. There are many paramatthic conditions that underlie what we call the "the eyes working properly," a conventional expression. I will accept a paramatthic "eyesense" when someone can say something specific about it, and, in particular, describe how and where it can be looked into. ----------------------------------------------------------- This is physical, thus rupa.You think that all rupas are> > concepts? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not in the slightest. Rupas are rupas, directly experienced, and are not concepts. The fact that I have not been persuaded of a rupic entity called "eyesense" does not imply that I think all rupas are concepts. I think nothing of the sort. -------------------------------------------------------- Well, so long as they are not directly known we think of them on> > the conceptual level. > Nina. > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30227 From: Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: Apology Re: [dsg] Re: Control || No Control Hi, Eddie - In a message dated 2/17/04 2:01:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, eddielou_us@yah oo.com writes: > > Hi, Upasaka, > That is courage but I had learnt (correct me!) Anger > is ONLY eliminated when one reached Arahantship. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suppose that so long as any remnant of sense of self arises, anger, possibly very low-key (such as extremely mild irritation), can still arise. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I also lately learnt from here DSG that there can be > no more additional Arahant at this stage of Buddha > Sasana. Hope my interpretation is correct (correct > me!) Thanks. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've heard the same. I don't buy it! ;-) However, it is not of graet importance anyway - at least not to any of us personally. ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- > > Also my common sense told me Mana (Ego or Self > Esteem??) is closely tied to Anger. At least a big > ingredient. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would surmise that sense of self is a necessary condition for anger. ------------------------------------------------- > I read this also in DSG and Interesting > enought lately there is this interesting related > thread - Catching Anger. > > Thanks all, for all the wisdom revealed to me. > > Metta, > > Eddie ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30228 From: Eddie Lou Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 0:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Hi, Andy, Sorry for jumping in just like that. Maybe I do not know the full content, situation and depth of the topics you are discussing. Please excuse me if I misinterpret what you are trying to get it out to us. A few things: Do not put too much value this and that as we normally use to put ourselves on as well as on others. Buddhism (I believe) is trying to show the ultimate truth, which is not so easy to understand or else we all will be Arahat destined for Nirvana or Nibbana. It will take some time to see progress. In fact many of us are like one DSG member mentioned 'work in progress'. I personally believe 'ego' and 'anger (pali word - dosa)' can cause a lot of unhappiness or suffering (pali - Dukkha). Also, I kind of - believe that we are what we think or be conscious of ourself. Based from your writings, your progress is great with the use of those concept word like 'AS IS', sufferings and kamma. I think you have already formed or grasped quite some concepts. I myself learnt quite some but feel a lot more ahead to be digested. Hope I gave you some helpful encouragement. Excuse me, if this turns out to be a blind meddling in. Metta, Eddie Lou --- Andy Wilson wrote: > > 1. seeing it as an inevitable part of my life [Snipped...] > rework and reinterpret? > > metta > > andy 30229 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Dear Group, Any newcomers, as well as those not so new, who include periods of formal meditation in their practice, may be interested in the next 90 day email course by Andrew Quernmore. The course is computer based and personally supported. Details below. His quote from K. Sujin may also be relevant to the 'anger' thread. http://vipassana.com/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- =========================================== "The Buddha taught Dhamma to his followers out of compassion, he taught them Dhamma for their benefit and happiness. When they had listened to the Dhamma they could ponder over it and put it into practice. The Buddha taught about the ill effects of anger. Anger leads to different kinds of suffering for the person who is angry, but the person to whom anger is directed does not have to suffer from it if he does not have anger himself." - Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket Welcome to Vipassana.com Meditation Course The online meditation course has been hosted here since 1997. Our 90 day course is available several times each year and provides a clear and practical introduction to tranquillity and insight practices from the Theravada tradition. Our next available course begins on April 24th and registration is now open. Authentic Texts All of the documents on this site take their lead from the Pali Canon; the most authoritative record and guide to the historical Buddha's teachings. They are part of a living tradition that continues to flourish after two and a half millennia. Useful Resources We are an independent site promoting a balanced approach to the practice of Buddhist meditation as found in the Theravada tradition. We aim to offer resources to help nurture and sustain a fulfilling and effective meditation practice that is consistent with the Buddha's teachings Authoritative Teachings In addition to presenting the core texts of early Buddhism we are developing an online library featuring some of the finest modern writing on Buddhism and meditation. Stay Informed The Vipassana.com Newsletter contains details of our new courses and items of interest to those meditating in the Buddhist tradition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What is vipassana? In the Pali language of the early Buddhist texts, vipassana means insight. It is often used to describe one of the two main categories of Buddhist meditation (the other being samatha or tranquillity). The term may correctly be applied to any Buddhist meditation technique that aims for a complete understanding of the Three Characteristics - dukkha (suffering or unsatisfactoriness), anicca (impemanence) and anatta (not-Self). What is Theravada Buddhism? The southern form of Buddhism now found mainly in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and Myanmar. It is the oldest living tradition and its core teachings are based on the word of the Buddha as found in the earliest texts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 30230 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Azita, ----------------------- A: > Or could it be that there is worry, concern about akusala, and does it matter whether the akusala comes in the form of lobha, dosa or moha, it is still akusala and can be known anyway by the development of right understanding. ----------------------- It's marvellous the way all the dsg threads seem to be tying in together. I think yours is the same message Ken O brought back from Thailand. If I understood him correctly, it is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala from akusala. (After all, knowing nama from rupa IS kusala.) There is no need to go out and `try' to gain entry to university; everything we need (lobha, dosa, visible object . . . ) is served up to us right here in the present moment. Give me kindergarten kusala any day. :-) I'll leave you with Nina's words on this thread. Kind regards, Ken H N: > In the development of insight, from the beginning to the end, only one characteristic appears at a time. There are three general characteristics and these are always characteristics *of* a nama or rupa that appears right now. That nama or rupa is the object of direct awareness and understanding. It appears, because it has arisen, and its true nature can be penetrated. Thus, when the characteristic of impermanence or anatta is penetrated by panna, it has to be the impermanence or the anattaness of the citta, cetasika or rupa appearing right now. Not just impermanence or anattaness in general that is contemplated. > 30231 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, ---------------- J: > In my experience, I can experience hardness as my feet rest on the ground. Hardness is an ultimate. If I calm my mind down, knowing this hardness is not a conceptual way of knowing although I might use the concept of hardness to point my attention to the experience. I think anyone can do this. ---------------------- No one likes to be told that someone else has been where they are and moved on to `bigger and better things' (as in; "Been there, done that!"). So I should be careful in saying that I have, over a twenty-five year period, tried the modern (non-ancient-text) way of practising Dhamma – as you have just described it. Then, some dsg friends convinced me that my practice necessarily involved the perception of a self (a self who could practise). So, I have lost interest in formal practice and never regretted doing so. I am not suggesting I have more wisdom than you have – just that I have acquired a different perspective on the Dhamma. ----------------- KH: >> If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and try to cross the flood? >> J: > I don't understand your thinking. What do you think the 8-Fold Path is about? Doesn't the Buddha suggest we can reduce suffering by trying to not kill sentient beings, to use one example. ---------------------------- Yes, but when he used the word "we" it was as a conventional designation. There was no suggestion, whatsoever, that "we" really exist. This knocked all conventional wisdom into a cocked hat. We must appreciate the enormous significance. Anatta is not a mere side issue; it changes everything. ------------------------------- J: > I bet I can pick up the Majjhima Nikaya volume next to by desk, open it to a sutta at random and find a mention of the Buddha's teaching us to try something. OK. I picked it up at MN2. Among other things this sutta suggests we remove taints by avoiding certain thoughts. To me, this involves trying. I must be missing something. ---------------- If there is no self (anatta), why should we try to follow the Eight- fold Path? Would the beings, who become freed by it, be you or me? No. And so there must be something more to it than that. The Buddha's teaching is all about the present moment. It is about what there really is, of you and me, right here and now. The Dhamma, in the Suttas, describes the present moment as it is for everyone -- from the lowliest worldling to the Tathagata himself. When it describes a being who is refraining from causing harm – or when it describes a being who is making the transition from worldling to ariyan -- there is no command; "Go out and do this!" how could there be? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/14/04 7:54:49 PM Central Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > True, but that's still a conceptual way of knowing, isn't it? The > direct way of knowing is the arising of the cetasika, panna to see > that whatever arises and passes away is either a nama or a rupa. > Ken, > > I have a few minutes at lunch so I will comment more on your post. What does > the second sentence above mean to you as applied to your own experience? In my > experience, 30232 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:34pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Ken H, Why assign such an importance to knowing nama from rupa such that it is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala from akusala? You might want to refer to the discourse Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html In particular, given the following passage, how is knowing nama from rupa is wholesome/kusala? 1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park. There the Venerable Sariputta addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Friends, bhikkhus." -- "Friend," they replied. The Venerable Sariputta said this: 2. "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" "Indeed, friend, we would come from far away to learn from the Venerable Sariputta the meaning of this statement. It would be good if the Venerable Sariputta would explain the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it." "Then, friends, listen and attend closely to what I shall say." "Yes, friend," the bhikkhus replied. The Venerable Sariputta said this: (The Wholesome and the Unwholesome) 3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma. 4. "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome. 5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome. 6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. 7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome. 8. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: [snip] > Thailand. If I understood him correctly, it is more important to > know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala from akusala. (After > all, knowing nama from rupa IS kusala.) > > There is no need to go out and `try' to gain entry to university; > everything we need (lobha, dosa, visible object . . . ) is served up > to us right here in the present moment. Give me kindergarten kusala > any day. :-) > > I'll leave you with Nina's words on this thread. > > Kind regards, > Ken H [snip] 30233 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Philip, > > It's good to hear from you again...pls keep contributing your comments and > questions. Hello Sarah. Thank you for remembering me! It may still be a while before I understand once and all that studying seriously with a group like this is more beneficial than cavorting at the general Buddhist forums where I spend too much of my time, but I sense that day is coming. I found it a bit hard going here because of my lack of knoweledge of the Pali terms, but that's why there is a glossary available for us here. I still haven't read Nina's book on the Paramis. The intention has been ripening, though. :) > > --- Philip wrote: > > > > I see sudden outbursts of anger as the greatest danger. > .... > That's interesting. On the other hand, as Larry hinted, it is > attachment(lobha) which is given as the cause of suffering. Without > attachment, would there be any outbursts of anger? > > In particular, I tend to see wrong view?Eas the greatest danger. This and the comments that followed were helpful for me. I have been reading and thinking more about Upekkha since I last posted, and see that I was taking it in the wrong way. Without Right View to remind me of the true nature of phenomena, I was taking Upekkha as a kind of bubble to protect ME from the world, instead of seeing it as an energy to be safe in because there is no real barrier of self there and no attachment, therefore, to worldy concerns which feed on self-image. > .... > > I wonder if the same can be said of the energy of anger within us > > and ask, as a beginner, whether directing it in a skillful direction > > might be possible? > The reason I question this is because it suggests that `we?Ecan direct > anything and that there can be a skillful direction for anger or greed > which is very questionable I think. > > Perhaps you'd care to elaborate further. I think it's questionable too, with anger. It was just a question that popped into my head and surely the answer is no. I should have elaborated more about what Ayya Khema said. She said that those whose primary defilement is greed could possibly channel that energy into faith, which would be a way of generating energy and enthusiasm for one's practice. So it wasn't consciously justifying greed, per se, but channeling any remnant of it into faith. Thank you, Sarah, and all. Now, hopefully I WILL be going into this group's files for serious study rather than fooling around at general forums. :) Metta, Philip 30234 From: Andrew Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Ken H You wrote to Jack: when he [Buddha] used the word "we" it was as a conventional > designation. There was no suggestion, whatsoever, that "we" really > exist. This knocked all conventional wisdom into a cocked hat. We > must appreciate the enormous significance. Anatta is not a mere > side issue; it changes everything. Andrew: You imply that "we" don't "really exist" - i.e. that "conventional wisdom" is illusory. But the Buddha described conventional designations as "sacca" or "truths". How can a "truth" be an "illusion"? By continuing to use this descriptive language in the way that you do, are you not going one step too far and smudging the message? I have no problem with an assertion that "we" don't exist in an ultimate sense, but that's not what you say. You say: "we" don't really exist. When you are in the desert and see a mirage of water, do you say "the mirage doesn't exist" or "the water doesn't exist"? Don't we need to look at the mirage critically and when we do, we find that no water is involved at all. A Noble One who looks at a mirage doesn't see nothing. He sees a mirage. He sees truth and he knows its nature. Your descriptive language, IMHO, transforms anatta into a lop-sided doctrine, trying to push pannatti out of sight. I don't for one minute think that this is your intention but it is the impression that is given off when we state that derived truths "don't exist". Or have I missed something? Best wishes Andrew 30235 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: >> p.s How did you get on with your reading on Paramis (Perfections)? > ====== I didn't, but now I am ready to. Sarah was kind enough some weeks ago to guide me to a book on the Paramis by Nina (if I'm not mistaken) but I can't find it in the group files or links to Nina's books. Would Sarah or someone else be kind enough to post the link again? Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience. Philip 30236 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Victor, Sila and dana are wholesome but, if you carefully read the Sutta you have quoted, you will see that right understanding is also wholesome. The first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama (as distinct from rupa) and rupa is directly known as rupa. Please note that Venerable Sariputta's explanation begins: "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome" May I ask what you think of that? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > Why assign such an importance to knowing nama from rupa such that it > is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala > from akusala? > > You might want to refer to the discourse > > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > Sammaditthi Sutta > The Discourse on Right View > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > > > In particular, given the following passage, how is knowing nama from > rupa is wholesome/kusala? > > 30237 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Ken H, What I find questionable is the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa is directly known as rupa. How does the discourse Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html support that claim? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Sila and dana are wholesome but, if you carefully read the Sutta you > have quoted, you will see that right understanding is also > wholesome. The first sign of right understanding comes when nama is > directly known as nama (as distinct from rupa) and rupa is directly > known as rupa. > > Please note that Venerable Sariputta's explanation begins: > > "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the > root of the unwholesome" > > May I ask what you think of that? > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > > > Why assign such an importance to knowing nama from rupa such that > it > > is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala > > from akusala? > > > > You might want to refer to the discourse > > > > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > > Sammaditthi Sutta > > The Discourse on Right View > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > > > > > > In particular, given the following passage, how is knowing nama > from > > rupa is wholesome/kusala? 30238 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:47pm Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, Some comments below, I hope you don't mind that they are quite direct. You said: > There is certainly no "one" to do anything, but volition arises and > has effect. As to whether there is need to do more, the Buddha said there is. Sukin: Before I proceed, I just want to make clear that there *is* much to be done. The path ahead of us according to my estimation is still very remote. And I cannot imagine a step forward along the path, let alone reaching the final goal, without Right Effort. Effort however arises with every citta except the ten sense door cittas. So what makes the difference in whether the effort is Right or not, is whether it is accompanied by sati and panna. I think you agree with this. So firstly, should we be concerned particularly with "effort"? Should we not be more concerned about understanding the present moment. Howard: > In guarding the senses, not only is one to be mindful, which, of course, is a > sine qua non, but also cut short harmful states, and initiate and encourage > useful ones - all calling for exercise of volition (but not by any "one"). Sukin: This is another one, `cetana' arises with every citta. Can we determine the quality of cetana simply by `believing in something'? Don't the panna have to be so sharp as to be able to differentiate kusala from akusala, not just depending on a vague idea? Do we recognize akusala `real time'? By what, vedana, sanna, nimitta or cetana? Or is our recognition of the level of `concept' only, or even a `story about a situation'? The cetana to `guard the sense door' does not mean that this is what will take place. Sati and panna must know nama or rupa and not be caught in concept of people and situations. Even on the `intellectual' level, in which one at the very least knows the difference between `thinking' and what is actually experienced through the particular sense door, it would be the work of "panna" which does the guarding. But you say; Howard: > There must be the original intention to be mindful (watchful) and to act quickly and > subtly in infuencing what transpires mentally. The mental flow can be influenced. Sukin: Don't you think dhammas arise in spite of our intentions? What do you think is stronger, the accumulated kilesas or our intention for kusala states? Have you heard of the terms, dosa nimitta and lobha nimitta? Dosa and Lobha work their way long before we know it, attaching to the level of paramattha dhammas, while the little sati that arises here, is way after the fact. This is not to say that long after when the `snowball' effect has taken place, there is no value in having sati then. There is. But is `intention' primary even here? Instead of believing that guarding of the sense has taken place due to an effort on your part, would you not want to know what is actually happening? With regard to the `mental flow' which follows after the initial guarding of the senses, again here one should not underestimate the power of kilesas. What is to guarantee that kusala states will follow? With a preference and prior intention to have kusala states, I think in fact it may be more likely that a moment of `having guarded the sense' that lobha will come in immediately and then probably followed by mana and ditthi. (In my case it does anyway.) This is why I think it important to consider `detachment'. Is there detachment when one is almost `militant' about guarding the senses? Cetana is prime in conditioning vipaka and also accumulated tendencies. But it can't control the quality of cittas. And the important thing is that there is so much accumulated ignorance that stories and ideas influence our practice more often than any accumulated panna. Howard: > Were that impossible, the Buddha would not have urged his followers > accordingly. Not infrequently, the Buddha said that various things were possible to > be accomplished, and were they not he would not have urged his followers to > attempt them. Sukin: Were it not possible, I wouldn't be here. ;-)). But did the Buddha ever use the word `attempt'? If he did, did he mean it the way most of us do? The Path is, but no one who walks it. Howard: One only need read the suttas, not just a chosen few that seem to > support preconceived positions, to see this. (This, BTW, is something we all > do - pick and choose among the suttas to reinforce our own positions. In 45 > years of teaching, to a variety of listeners with a variety of needs, the Buddha > left a legacy of teachings in which one can find almost anything one hopes to > find, and it is important, I think, to make the effort - yes, actually make > the effort! ;-)) - to avoid being overly selective, but to see the full breadth > of the vast river of teaching and all its substreams.) Sukin: Yes, our minds are always `made up'. I fear `existential uncertainty', it makes me very nervous. The reliance upon ideas is very strong and those ideas *better be right*! But I also believe in taking things step by step. I have considered about the reliance on Buddhist concepts as a whole, let alone my particular understanding. So far I have not found anything more sensible and convincing. I have read no more than 1 % of the Tipitaka, but I rely on my friends' experience and especially K. Sujin's. She is not selective at all. Though I have personally not read all, I would agree that to be `selective', would be a sign of lack of confidence in the Teachings. Got to go now. > With metta, > Howard Metta, Sukin. 30239 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, You can find it here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm I recommend this link too - here you will another link to 'Useful Posts' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > >> p.s How did you get on with your reading on Paramis (Perfections)? > > ====== > 30240 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Victor & Ken H, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > What I find questionable is the claim that the first sign of right > understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa is > directly known as rupa. How does the discourse... > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > Sammaditthi Sutta > The Discourse on Right View > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html I’m not sure that this sutta which is describing supramundane right view will help us understand the details and distinction between nama and rupa (nama-rupa-pariccheda-~nana - first stage of insight). Comy “And this (part of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it should be understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right attention occurred in detail.” For the detail, we may need to look at other suttas and commentaries such as the Visuddhimagga. You may both find it helpful to look at the commentary to this sutta too, conveniently on line here. Here is an extract: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm Sutta: 2. "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" Comy: “But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating. Hence he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of its going straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc., supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view also possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold supramundane Dhamma.[6] And by becoming disentangled from all the thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by departing from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its consummation, he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" proclaimed by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the Deathless. The Wholesome and the Unwholesome 3. Understands the unwholesome (akusalan ca pajanati): he understands the unwholesome called the ten courses of unwholesome kamma (action), penetrating this by way of function with the understanding that has Nibbana as its object as "This is suffering." (Understands) the root of the unwholesome (akusalamulan ca pajanati): And he understands the unwholesome root which has become the root condition of that (unwholesome), penetrating this, in the same way, as "This is the origin of suffering." The same method applies here also in regard to "the wholesome" and "the root of the wholesome." And, as it is here, so in all the following sections, the understanding of the subject should be understood by way of function. In that way (ettavata pi): by this much; by this understanding of the unwholesome, etc. He is one of right view (sammaditthi hoti): he possesses supramundane right view of the kind aforesaid. Whose view is straight . . . and has arrived at this true Dhamma: At this point the summary version of the teaching has been expounded. And this (part of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it should be understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right attention occurred in detail. In that way (ettavata pi): by this much; by this understanding of the unwholesome, etc. He is one of right view (sammaditthi hoti): he possesses supramundane right view of the kind aforesaid. Whose view is straight . . . and has arrived at this true Dhamma: At this point the summary version of the teaching has been expounded. And this (part of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it should be understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right attention occurred in detail.” ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 30241 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 0:08am Subject: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > <...> > http://vipassana.com/ ---------------- <...> > What is vipassana? <...> The > term may correctly be applied to any Buddhist meditation technique > that aims for a complete understanding of the Three Characteristics - > dukkha (suffering or unsatisfactoriness), anicca (impemanence) and > anatta (not-Self). ..... S: What do you think of this definition of vipassana, Chris? Just spoken to SarahF (your daughter) and it was good to hear her cheery voice again. (She was on a bus coming back from Stanley market as we spoke, so it was a slightly ‘bumpy’ call;-)). We’re meeting her and her friend, Rob, for an evening walk later. I’ll try to look out for a few squirrels, snakes or cockatoos for her to write home about and mention that they don’t really exist if I have a chance;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30242 From: sarahdhhk Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] need help... Hi Wen, "wen" wrote: > Dear Larry, > Thank you so much for your attention, I'm a Buddhist living in > Indonesia and yes the asubha bhavana that I asked was about > contemplation of the impurities of the body. I read about it some > and also focussed to it's function to reduce desire, but I cannot > get the complete instructions,... ... Several friends wrote wise and helpful replies to you, some expressing caution. I think we'd all be interested to hear how you're getting on and whether the suggestions made any sense. Pls let us know if you're still reading the posts here. I didn't write at the time as I'd just got back from a trip. However, I'd like to belatedly welcome you here to DSG. Let us know anything more about your studies and practice and concern to reduce desire too. Metta, Sarah ====== 30243 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hello Sarah, and All, Regarding vipassana - I feel comfortable with that definition, and also with Nyanatiloka where he says "Insight is not the result of a mere intellectual understanding, but is won through direct meditative observation of one's own bodily and mental processes", and then goes on to list the stages of insight. Good, also, to have the opportunity to ask why choosing to sit and meditate is 'self-view' and possibly even silabbata-paraamaasa, but choosing to regularly study, discuss and listen to the Dhamma isn't? Thank you for telling about SarahF and reminding me that I have a daughter :-) Could you remind her, please, that she has a Mother - one who hasn't yet had the Felicity of a Call from her to even say she is Still Alive and hasn't been captured by Person Smugglers!!!! :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > <...> > > http://vipassana.com/ > ---------------- > <...> > > What is vipassana? > <...> > The > > term may correctly be applied to any Buddhist meditation technique > > that aims for a complete understanding of the Three Characteristics - > > dukkha (suffering or unsatisfactoriness), anicca (impemanence) and > > anatta (not-Self). > ..... > S: What do you think of this definition of vipassana, Chris? > > 30244 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 0:51am Subject: A quiet friend.... Hi All, We recently heard from Peter DaCosta and I’m sharing part of his letter (as he knows) as he has many friends on DSG who might like to know where he is. Metta, Sarah. Peter wrote: >I am now at Wat Pa Baan Taad awaiting a decision as to whether they will accept me as a candidate for ordination under their sponsorship, and am hoping to know the answere to this in the next week or so. Right now, I feel that I have to focus on practice above all else as my teacher is emphasising concentration totally and I am running into all kinds of problems with this, many of which are kammic in nature and origin. The mind learns some pretty strange tricks as it ages. So, this occupies a significant part of my current resource alocation. However, as soon as I am able I certainly would like to resume contact with dsg. Luangpow Panyavadho offers some very solid advice in practice and I daily feel more confident in overcomming these tenacious problems. It should be quite interesting, as they say. The opportunity to keep up with events on line is very rare these days, but conditions seem to have a habit of changing.< ***** 30245 From: sarahdhhk Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Companionship Dear Bhante, Ajahn Jose wrote: > Hello Dave, My name is Ajahn Jose , I am American but live in Australia, I am a Buddhist monk, never feel lonely, Christine is a wonderful person and she will always give you the right advice, I am here to be for any help you need, it doesn't matter whow trivial it is. We all have to start somewhere. Metta. Ajahn Jose .... Your comments to Dave were very kindly meant and after meeting you I know you really like to help people when you have a chance. We enjoyed your contributions to our discussions in Bangkok (see posts 29598[by me] and 29619 [by Christine] in this regard). I would like to ask, if it's not disrespectful in any way, whether it is appropriate to encourage anyone to address a Theravada Buddhist monk by a lay name? In Bangkok you discussed the difficulty of staying at temples where correct vinaya is not kept (handling of money and so on). I think everyone in the room agreed that to support the Sangha, we should all do our best to set a good example -- whether as a monk or lay person in this regard. We know that leading a good life as a lay life is very hard and that leading a good life as a bhikkhu is harder still. I've hesitated for some time on whether to address these comments but I recall your encouragement to address points directly. With metta, Sarah ======= 30246 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:12am Subject: The 3 baskets: Tipitaka! Friends; The Three Baskets of Knowledge: The Bhikkhu, who is well practised in the disciplinary Vinaya code of the Norm, arrives, by fulfilling these 227 training rules, at the 3 Direct Knowledges, fully treated & contained therein: Direct Knowledge of many Prior Life's in all their detail. Direct Knowledge of the Divine Eye, seeing beings die & rre-arise Direct Knowledge of the elimination of Mental Fermentation. _____________________________________________________ The Bhikkhu, who is well practised in the Sutta speeches of the Buddha arrives, by reaching Absorption Concentration, at the 6 SSupra-mundanenbsp; States, fully treated & contained therein: SSupra-humanState of the Magical Power (elevation, appearance etc.) SSupra-humanState of Divine Ear. SSupra-humanState of knowing others Mind & Thinking. SSupra-humanState of remembrance of Past Life's & Worlds. Supra-human State of the Divine Eye; seeing future destinations. Supra-human State of elimination of Mental Fermentation. _____________________________________________________ The Bhikkhu, who is well practised in Higher Abhi-Dhamma Science arrives, by enjoying Profound & Subtle Understanding, at the four Analytical Discriminations, fully treated & contained therein: The analytical discrimination of Essence. The analytical discrimination of Cause. The analytical discrimination of Formulation. The analytical discrimination of Difference. _____________________________________________________ The Bhikkhu, who is well trained in all 3 Pitakas attains in due time to: The 3 Direct Knowledges, the 6 Supra-human States, and the 4 analytical discriminations. _____________________________________________________ The Bhikkhu, who is badly trained in the Vinaya Discipline falls to the painful states, caused by detrimental praxis. The Bhikkhu, who is badly trained in the Sutta speeches of the Buddha get wrong ideas and falls to the painful states, caused by wrong views. The Bhikkhu, who is badly trained in the Higher AbhiDhamma Science runs obsessed in metaphysical speculation and falls to the painful levels, caused by confused distraction. _____________________________________________________ These 3 baskets of Precious Ancient Knowledge is still present here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html To study these are certainly advantageous & never barren. All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30247 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Regarding vipassana - .... S: - at any moment such as while walking and chatting about topics of general interest .... .... C: > Thank you for telling about SarahF and reminding me that I have a > daughter :-) Could you remind her, please, that she has a Mother - > one who hasn't yet had the Felicity of a Call from her to even say > she is Still Alive and hasn't been captured by Person > Smugglers!!!! :-) .... S: ;-) She's alive, bubbly and well and we were glad to meet RobS, a very pleasant young man,(not sure he apppreciated the garbled explanation I gave about why I needed an initial for him, but he knows we know lots of Robs now;-)). Pleasant mid-levels green walk, silver-crested cockatoos but no squirrels or snakes....giant tower lights in all directions as the sky turned dark. Mostly general Hong Kong and Oz chatter (not wishing to push any agenda), but SarahF and I did have a chat about building up stories, becoming distressed and looking for outer causes of problems at one point....She said it reminded her of some comments you'd made - strange thing that;-)Not sure what Jon and RobS were talking about most the time..... You've got a lovely daughter - very out-going, confident and organised too;-) I think she's hoping to join you on a trip to Bangkok sometime too - so there's an excuse for another trip for you;-) Metta, Sarah p.s She definitely hasn't forgotten she has a mother and she made several comments to show how she considers your welfare;-) ================================================ 30248 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Sarah and (Ken H), I read the commentary you quoted. But how does the commentary that you quoted support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & Ken H, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > > > What I find questionable is the claim that the first sign of right > > understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa is > > directly known as rupa. How does the discourse... > > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > > Sammaditthi Sutta > > The Discourse on Right View > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > > I'm not sure that this sutta which is describing supramundane right view > will help us understand the details and distinction between nama and rupa > (nama-rupa-pariccheda-~nana - first stage of insight). > > Comy "And this (part of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those > bhikkhus it should be understood that the penetration (of the meaning) > through right attention occurred in detail." > > For the detail, we may need to look at other suttas and commentaries such > as the Visuddhimagga. You may both find it helpful to look at the > commentary to this sutta too, conveniently on line here. Here is an > extract: > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm > > Sutta: > 2. "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what > way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has > perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" > > Comy: > "But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane > wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating. Hence > he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the > Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme > aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of its going > straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going > straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc., > supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view also > possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold > supramundane Dhamma.[6] And by becoming disentangled from all the > thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by departing > from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its consummation, > he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" proclaimed > by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the Deathless. > > The Wholesome and the Unwholesome > > 3. Understands the unwholesome (akusalan ca pajanati): he understands > the unwholesome called the ten courses of unwholesome kamma (action), > penetrating this by way of function with the understanding that has > Nibbana as its object as "This is suffering." (Understands) the root of > the unwholesome (akusalamulan ca pajanati): And he understands the > unwholesome root which has become the root condition of that > (unwholesome), penetrating this, in the same way, as "This is the origin > of suffering." The same method applies here also in regard to "the > wholesome" and "the root of the wholesome." And, as it is here, so in > all the following sections, the understanding of the subject should be > understood by way of function. > > In that way (ettavata pi): by this much; by this understanding of the > unwholesome, etc. He is one of right view (sammaditthi hoti): he > possesses supramundane right view of the kind aforesaid. Whose view is > straight . . . and has arrived at this true Dhamma: At this point > the summary version of the teaching has been expounded. And this (part > of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it should be > understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right attention > occurred in detail. > > In that way (ettavata pi): by this much; by this understanding of the > unwholesome, etc. He is one of right view (sammaditthi hoti): he > possesses supramundane right view of the kind aforesaid. Whose view is > straight . . . and has arrived at this true Dhamma: At this point > the summary version of the teaching has been expounded. And this (part > of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it should be > understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right attention > occurred in detail." > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 30249 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Victor (and KenH) I hope you don't mind me butting in here. This is an important issue, one that goes to the very heart of the teachings, in my view. Both kinds of knowing -- knowing (directly) nama from rupa, and knowing kusala from akusala -- are aspects of panna, but they involve different levels of panna. Directly knowing nama from rupa (or, in other words, knowing nama as nama and rupa as rupa) is panna of the level of satipatthana/vipasssana. Indeed, this kind of knowing *is* satipatthana/vipassana. Knowing kusala from akusala is the function, or one of the functions, of panna of the level of samatha. Without this understanding, samatha cannot be developed to a high degree. The further development of the understanding that knows nama from rupa leads to seeing the characterisitc of anicca/dukkha/anatta in namas and rupas (i.e., in all dhammas), and to the lessening of wrong view. The understanding that knows the difference between present moments of kusala and akusala, however, is not necesarily associated with right view and can in fact be developed alongside a strong idea of dhammas as 'self'. I think it was this difference that KenH was referring to. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > Why assign such an importance to knowing nama from rupa such that > it > is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala > from akusala? > > You might want to refer to the discourse > > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > Sammaditthi Sutta > The Discourse on Right View > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > > In particular, given the following passage, how is knowing nama > from rupa is wholesome/kusala? > 30250 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - I'll only insert a couple comments in the following. The bottom line is that I am close to 100% in disagreement with you on this. ;-) To me it is crystal clear that practicing tha Dhamma requires constant vigilance and volition, and that the Buddha taught this in inumerable suttas and contexts. In a message dated 2/18/04 12:47:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Some comments below, I hope you don't mind that they are quite > direct. > > You said: > >There is certainly no "one" to do anything, but volition arises > and > >has effect. As to whether there is need to do more, the Buddha > said there is. > > Sukin: > Before I proceed, I just want to make clear that there *is* much to > be done. The path ahead of us according to my estimation is still > very remote. And I cannot imagine a step forward along the path, > let alone reaching the final goal, without Right Effort. Effort > however arises with every citta except the ten sense door cittas. So > what makes the difference in whether the effort is Right or not, is > whether it is accompanied by sati and panna. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Right effort, as far as I'm concerned, consists of what the Buddha said it consists of. When he spoke of right effort, he was quite specific, and he wasn't speaking in terms of some sort of Abhidhammic ultimate that is always present. The Buddha was largely teaching worldlings when he taught right effort (and much of the rest), and he gave instructions that could be understood and followed by worldlings. As I've said before,we start where we are, not where we hope to be. You say that effort is always present, but sati and pa~n~na may not be. In checking the universal cetasikas, I don't see effort (or energy-viriya). Maybe it's there but I'm just missing it. But even if effort to some degree is always there, it may be weak. Moreover, if to make the effort "right" sati and pa~n~na are required, how do they come about. Ultimately, it must come down to either cultivation (powered by volition and effort) or by sheer dumb luck! But the Buddha taught his students to take steps! ---------------------------------------------------- I think you agree with > > this. So firstly, should we be concerned particularly with "effort"? > Should we not be more concerned about understanding the present > moment. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Can't do that without volition and effort! (Every sentient being, except when in an unconscious stupor, observes always and only the present moment (in reality), but not all sentient beings are engaged in Buddhist practice and heading in the right direction. (I add no further comment until the end.) -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > >In guarding the senses, not only is one to be mindful, which, of > course, is a > >sine qua non, but also cut short harmful states, and initiate and > encourage > >useful ones - all calling for exercise of volition (but not by > any "one"). > > Sukin: > This is another one, `cetana' arises with every citta. Can we > determine the quality of cetana simply by `believing in something'? > Don't the panna have to be so sharp as to be able to differentiate > kusala from akusala, not just depending on a vague idea? Do we > recognize akusala `real time'? By what, vedana, sanna, nimitta or > cetana? Or is our recognition of the level of `concept' only, or > even a `story about a situation'? > > The cetana to `guard the sense door' does not mean that this is what > will take place. Sati and panna must know nama or rupa and not be > caught in concept of people and situations. Even on > the `intellectual' level, in which one at the very least knows the > difference between `thinking' and what is actually experienced > through the particular sense door, it would be the work of "panna" > which does the guarding. But you say; > > Howard: > >There must be the original intention to be mindful (watchful) and > to act quickly and > >subtly in infuencing what transpires mentally. The mental flow can > be influenced. > > Sukin: > Don't you think dhammas arise in spite of our intentions? What do > you think is stronger, the accumulated kilesas or our intention for > kusala states? Have you heard of the terms, dosa nimitta and lobha > nimitta? Dosa and Lobha work their way long before we know it, > attaching to the level of paramattha dhammas, while the little sati > that arises here, is way after the fact. This is not to say that > long after when the `snowball' effect has taken place, there is no > value in having sati then. There is. But is `intention' primary even > here? Instead of believing that guarding of the sense has taken > place due to an effort on your part, would you not want to know what > is actually happening? > > With regard to the `mental flow' which follows after the initial > guarding of the senses, again here one should not underestimate the > power of kilesas. What is to guarantee that kusala states will > follow? With a preference and prior intention to have kusala states, > I think in fact it may be more likely that a moment of `having > guarded the sense' that lobha will come in immediately and then > probably followed by mana and ditthi. (In my case it does anyway.) > > This is why I think it important to consider `detachment'. Is there > detachment when one is almost `militant' about guarding the senses? > > Cetana is prime in conditioning vipaka and also accumulated > tendencies. But it can't control the quality of cittas. And the > important thing is that there is so much accumulated ignorance that > stories and ideas influence our practice more often than any > accumulated panna. > > Howard: > >Were that impossible, the Buddha would not have urged his > followers > >accordingly. Not infrequently, the Buddha said that various things > were possible to > >be accomplished, and were they not he would not have urged his > followers to > >attempt them. > > Sukin: > Were it not possible, I wouldn't be here. ;-)). But did the Buddha > ever use the word `attempt'? If he did, did he mean it the way most > of us do? The Path is, but no one who walks it. > > Howard: > One only need read the suttas, not just a chosen few that seem to > >support preconceived positions, to see this. (This, BTW, is > something we all > >do - pick and choose among the suttas to reinforce our own > positions. In 45 > >years of teaching, to a variety of listeners with a variety of > needs, the Buddha > >left a legacy of teachings in which one can find almost anything > one hopes to > >find, and it is important, I think, to make the effort - yes, > actually make > >the effort! ;-)) - to avoid being overly selective, but to see the > full breadth > >of the vast river of teaching and all its substreams.) > > Sukin: > Yes, our minds are always `made up'. I fear `existential > uncertainty', it makes me very nervous. The reliance upon ideas is > very strong and those ideas *better be right*! But I also believe in > taking things step by step. I have considered about the reliance on > Buddhist concepts as a whole, let alone my particular understanding. > So far I have not found anything more sensible and convincing. I > have read no more than 1 % of the Tipitaka, but I rely on my > friends' experience and especially K. Sujin's. She is not selective > at all. Though I have personally not read all, I would agree that to > be `selective', would be a sign of lack of confidence in the > Teachings. > > Got to go now. > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, > Sukin. > ============================ I understand you to be basically saying that there is nothing that can be done. I see this this as a doctrine of hopelessness,and I definitely see it as contrary to the Buddha's teaching. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30251 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Victor Its again, since I am the one who started the issue just "namas and rupas" I think I should explain a bit more of it. Let me invite you to the Satipatthana Sutta. I think you will see something like mindfulness of the four elements, body parts, isn't this mindfullness of rupas. Then again the most part of the sutta is about namas. You can choose two ways, either you like detail namas and rupas or you prefer just namas and rupas. Has this answer your question ;-). Ken O --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and (Ken H), > > I read the commentary you quoted. But how does the commentary that > > you quoted support the claim that the first sign of right > understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as > > rupa? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Hi Victor & Ken H, > > > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > > > > > What I find questionable is the claim that the first sign of > right > > > understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and > rupa > is > > > directly known as rupa. How does the discourse... > > > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > > > Sammaditthi Sutta > > > The Discourse on Right View > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > > > > I'm not sure that this sutta which is describing supramundane > right view > > will help us understand the details and distinction between nama > and rupa > > (nama-rupa-pariccheda-~nana - first stage of insight). > > > > Comy "And this (part of) the teaching itself was brief; but for > those > > bhikkhus it should be understood that the penetration (of the > meaning) > > through right attention occurred in detail." > > > > For the detail, we may need to look at other suttas and > commentaries such > > as the Visuddhimagga. You may both find it helpful to look at the > > commentary to this sutta too, conveniently on line here. Here is > an > > extract: > > > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm > > > > Sutta: > > 2. "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. > In what > > way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is > straight, > who has > > perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true > Dhamma?" > > > > Comy: > > "But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing > supramundane > > wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and > emancipating. Hence > > he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in > the > > Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi > dhamme > > aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of > its going > > straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its > going > > straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, > etc., > > supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view > > also > > possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the > ninefold > > supramundane Dhamma.[6] And by becoming disentangled from all > the > > thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by > departing > > from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its > consummation, > > he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" > proclaimed > > by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the > Deathless. > > > > The Wholesome and the Unwholesome > > > > 3. Understands the unwholesome (akusalan ca pajanati): he > understands > > the unwholesome called the ten courses of unwholesome kamma > (action), > > penetrating this by way of function with the understanding that > has > > Nibbana as its object as "This is suffering." (Understands) the > > root of > > the unwholesome (akusalamulan ca pajanati): And he understands > the > > unwholesome root which has become the root condition of that > > (unwholesome), penetrating this, in the same way, as "This is the > > origin > > of suffering." The same method applies here also in regard > to "the > > wholesome" and "the root of the wholesome." And, as it is here, > > so in > > all the following sections, the understanding of the subject > should be > > understood by way of function. > > > > In that way (ettavata pi): by this much; by this understanding > of the > > unwholesome, etc. He is one of right view (sammaditthi hoti): > > he > > possesses supramundane right view of the kind aforesaid. Whose > view is > > straight . . . and has arrived at this true Dhamma: At this > > point > > the summary version of the teaching has been expounded. And > this > (part > > of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it > should be > > understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right > attention > > occurred in detail. > > > > In that way (ettavata pi): by this much; by this understanding > of the > > unwholesome, etc. He is one of right view (sammaditthi hoti): > > he > > possesses supramundane right view of the kind aforesaid. Whose > view is > > straight . . . and has arrived at this true Dhamma: At this > > point > > the summary version of the teaching has been expounded. And > this > (part > > of) the teaching itself was brief; but for those bhikkhus it > should be > > understood that the penetration (of the meaning) through right > attention > > occurred in detail." > > ***** > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 30252 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:55am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Jon, No problem. Thank you for sharing your view. I would ask this: How does what is being said in the discourses support your view? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor (and KenH) > > I hope you don't mind me butting in here. > > This is an important issue, one that goes to the very heart of the > teachings, in my view. > > Both kinds of knowing -- knowing (directly) nama from rupa, and > knowing kusala from akusala -- are aspects of panna, but they involve > different levels of panna. > > Directly knowing nama from rupa (or, in other words, knowing nama as > nama and rupa as rupa) is panna of the level of > satipatthana/vipasssana. Indeed, this kind of knowing *is* > satipatthana/vipassana. > > Knowing kusala from akusala is the function, or one of the functions, > of panna of the level of samatha. Without this understanding, > samatha cannot be developed to a high degree. > > The further development of the understanding that knows nama from > rupa leads to seeing the characterisitc of anicca/dukkha/anatta in > namas and rupas (i.e., in all dhammas), and to the lessening of wrong > view. The understanding that knows the difference between present > moments of kusala and akusala, however, is not necesarily associated > with right view and can in fact be developed alongside a strong idea > of dhammas as 'self'. > > I think it was this difference that KenH was referring to. > > Jon [snip] 30253 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:19am Subject: effort Dear Group, A repost of a disussion with Htoo: Dear Htoo, I want to add some more about right effort. We may reach a point where there is a great deal of confusion about which way to go, what to believe, how to practice. And that is just the way it should be: because it is conditioned like that- if there is not enough insight accumulated (yet) then how can anything be clear. But what is the worse that can happen? Well we could die, or go insane, or be reborn in hell..whatever is the most fearful thing you can imagine. And then - in the end - we have to accept that whatever we fear could come true. But that the only way you are defeated in this sasana is if you give up. That acceptance releases the courage to face up to the truth of the moment, without the subtle pressure of conceit that is a false confidence. Even the Bodhisatta was born in hell and as an animal before he became enlightened. As it says in the Cariya-pitaka: "" If he were to hear: "He alone can attain Buddhahood who can tread across a whole world-system that has become a solid mass of sharp-pointed swordstakes, cross out, and reach the other side," etc .... If he were to hear: "Buddhahood can only be attained after being tortured in hell for four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons" -- he would not deem that difficult to do, but would be filled with desire for the task and would not shrink away"" We don't have to do so much to become a savaka but we really need to re-examine if we imagine it should be easy or quick. Right effort is consistent and is not discouraged at all by the time it takes; right effort doesn't look for the easy way or fast way, but only the right way- even if that means a trip across a spiked worldsystem.. In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, AS you know right effort only arises with kusala citta - and kusala citta is never strained- it only comes with pleasant or neutral feeling. So I think that such phrases as 'letting go' or 'choiceless awareness' are broadly pointing out the right attitude. However, this is more difficult than it sounds because sometimes it can still be ME who is letting go.... The present moment is always the test: are we trying to change it to be how we think it should be...For example, do we want to be calmer or have another object...This very subtle desire covers over the immediate present and comes with an idea of control (i.e.self)and so the present moment stays obscured. It is good what you said: "When someone has practised for a long time and his > > mindfulness works well, he might think that he is very mindful and > > then he is said to be attached to Atta and then Anatta is not > seen. > > Because he thinks that he can control his mindfulness ."" Yes and that is the wrong way. It takes a very skilful teacher to help someone who is attached to subtle selfview like this. Maybe they are so attached that they cannot hear. In the end we have to see for ourselves whether there is less idea of self or more. If one can understand that all dhammas are conditioned and not under the power of any self then they can be their own teacher. Then anything/moment can be a suitable object/time for satipatthana. Even then the path is incremental and cannot be hurried, I think. Just some ideas to think about. RobertK > 30254 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Ken H, I can't say I agree with any of what you say below. If it is working for you, great. I can't think of anything I can add to what I have already said. It's been a pleasure talking with you. You are a scholar and a gentleman. Be well. Jack ---------------- J: > In my experience, I can experience hardness as my feet rest on the ground. Hardness is an ultimate. If I calm my mind down, knowing this hardness is not a conceptual way of knowing although I might use the concept of hardness to point my attention to the experience. I think anyone can do this. ---------------------- No one likes to be told that someone else has been where they are and moved on to `bigger and better things' (as in; "Been there, done that!"). So I should be careful in saying that I have, over a twenty-five year period, tried the modern (non-ancient-text) way of practising Dhamma – as you have just described it. Then, some dsg friends convinced me that my practice necessarily involved the perception of a self (a self who could practise). So, I have lost interest in formal practice and never regretted doing so. I am not suggesting I have more wisdom than you have – just that I have acquired a different perspective on the Dhamma. ----------------- KH: >> If the Buddha has said that `trying' is not the way to cross the flood, wouldn't it be obstinate and contrary of us to go ahead and try to cross the flood? >> J: > I don't understand your thinking. What do you think the 8-Fold Path is about? Doesn't the Buddha suggest we can reduce suffering by trying to not kill sentient beings, to use one example. ---------------------------- Yes, but when he used the word "we" it was as a conventional designation. There was no suggestion, whatsoever, that "we" really exist. This knocked all conventional wisdom into a cocked hat. We must appreciate the enormous significance. Anatta is not a mere side issue; it changes everything. ------------------------------- J: > I bet I can pick up the Majjhima Nikaya volume next to by desk, open it to a sutta at random and find a mention of the Buddha's teaching us to try something. OK. I picked it up at MN2. Among other things this sutta suggests we remove taints by avoiding certain thoughts. To me, this involves trying. I must be missing something. ---------------- If there is no self (anatta), why should we try to follow the Eight- fold Path? Would the beings, who become freed by it, be you or me? No. And so there must be something more to it than that. The Buddha's teaching is all about the present moment. It is about what there really is, of you and me, right here and now. The Dhamma, in the Suttas, describes the present moment as it is for everyone -- from the lowliest worldling to the Tathagata himself. When it describes a being who is refraining from causing harm – or when it describes a being who is making the transition from worldling to ariyan -- there is no command; "Go out and do this!" how could there be? 30255 From: John Hoban Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:22am Subject: definately faithless Hello, I'm in the Pocono mtn.s of Pennsylvania I'm not selling anything, I don't think, but I'd like to find some answers. I think I've heard the stuff about no answers and paths to grow and experience not words. I agree. So what are we doing here? Exchanging words I mean. Beats the hell outta me. I probably won't be here (on the board I mean) long. You may detect a chord of negativism. Absolutely. And sarcasm, I lose more good lays that way! Don't know what's good for me maybe. But I'll tell you why I'm here... This debate about annatta vs. reincarnation has always bothered me. Long before I heard the words or any arguments about it. The simple question: Is there any personal identity (if anything at all for that matter) after biological death? I think when I was younger it bothered me more in a vanity kinda way. Then 6 years ago, my wife died. Things were left unsaid. So now I think the question takes on another broader perspective. One of fairness. I think she deserved more than what she got in that incarnation and I'd like to know she's getting better stuff now or at least on her way to better stuff, depending on the scale of things. Some may argue that it's still for selfish reasons I want to know, be that as it may, let me ask you, isn't it a good question? Can't you think of people and examples in your own life, who have died, whose PRESENT welfare and balancing of the scales of fairness and joy you'd like to be confident about. If your answer is wait and see. That too unsure. What if I simply forget everything when I die. No. NOW is the only time for knowing, for me. And I don't. Anybody know? Thanks, John 30256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Howard, op 17-02-2004 20:06 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I don't say that I know or that I don't know. My only point was that > when our experience goes unexamined it seems that only obvious thoughts, > feelings, inclinations, emotions etc are experienced by the mind. When we > "see" a > tree or "hear" an orchestra, we think we are seeing and hearing. My point is > that we do not ordinarily realize how much the mind is involved in our > experiencing. We grossly underestimate the role of mind. N: I believe that there is such a great deal of thinking of stories about all that is perceived, thinking about feelings, emotions. Thus, thinking instead of having understanding of all these namas as only nama. We also forget that thinking is nama, not self. Without realizing it, thinking is full of self. There is still an underlying idea of, I think. H quotes N:>> By the way I understood that you think rupas such as eyesense are concepts. >> But the blind cannot see. >>---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly true. Likewise those who don't have a car cannot drive. (But > cars are not rupas.) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > A rupic condition is necessary for seeing. And> >> that is eyesense. > Howard: > No doubt several rupic conditions are necessary for seeing. N: and also namic conditions, such as kamma that produces seeing. And the eye-door adverting-consciousness preceding seeing. H: Where is > the eyesense you are talking about? How and where is it observed - how is it > to > be known? Certainly there is the *capacity* to see, but such capacity is > nothing more than a bunch of conditions being in effect - some positive, some > negative. There are many paramatthic conditions that underlie what we call the > "the eyes working properly," a conventional expression. I will accept a > paramatthic "eyesense" when someone can say something specific about it, and, > in > particular, describe how and where it can be looked into. >N: I like your questions. Very direct. Yes I will refer to a sutta, but I wait. See below. H quotes N: This is physical, thus rupa.You think that all rupas are> >> concepts? > Howard: > Not in the slightest. Rupas are rupas, directly experienced, and are > not concepts. The fact that I have not been persuaded of a rupic entity called > "eyesense" does not imply that I think all rupas are concepts. I think nothing > of the sort. N: Good. I am sorry for this misunderstanding. This was perhaps caused by the word element, when we talked about the Maharahulovaadasutta. I quote: H: N: I can give another cross reference to another sutta. I find that not only Co but also cross references help much to understand sutta texts. But first I would like to ask you: how do you see element, dhaatu? Nina. 30257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 (2 of 4) Hi Larry, a tough one, still staring at the Pali. op 16-02-2004 01:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: L quotes: "The intimator intimates the meaning to be intimated only when it is > apprehended as a cause, not merely as present." L: A qualm: if the intimation is an activation of only primary elements, > how is it apprehended, by touch? N: The Expositor, (p. 111) states: Intimation is only known through the mind-door. L: Also, this suggests that the intimation has to be apprehended at least > as an intentional intimation. Seems like we are on the outskirts of > convention here. N: I do not see such outskirts. Different processes of cittas are dealt with that know objects through different doorways. Nama and rupa. Rupas produced by citta which has the intention to display a meaning. It is very daily, occurs all the time. But we forget that there are, in the absolute sense, just nama and rupa arising because of their appropriate conditions. When you speak and move your hands to emphasize your words, there is already bodily intimation. We take it for self! There can also be conceit on account of it. We attach importance to our gestures, to . Nina. 30258 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Dhammasangani, to Icaro Dear Icaro, op 17-02-2004 19:34 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > To be more precise, you Dhamma fellows must check it out the > Dhammasangani's Book Four- Tika Atthuddhaaro, stanza 1386: > > "Katame Dhamma Avyakatta ? Catusu Bhumisu Vipako, Tasu Bhumisu > Kiriyaavyakatta, Rupanca, Nibbanca - ime Dhamma Avyakatta." In the English edition: p. 231, and § 983. Instead of Tasu: Tiisu, locative of ti, three. Catusu: in the four planes (bhumi) of citta: namely, the sensuous plane, the plane of ruupajjhaana, of aruupajjhaana, and of lokuttara, there is vipaka. There are lokuttara vipaakacittas, the phalacittas. Next one:in three planes: kiriyaacittas, only in the sensuous plane, the plane of ruupajjhaana, of aruupajjhaana, not the plane of lokuttara citta. There are no lokuttara kiriyacittas. Nina. 30259 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:25am Subject: [dsg] Re:_Dhammasangani, to Icaro Dear Nina Exact! I haven't got Velthuis fonts here at Bureau... and some transliterations are a bit fuzzy indeed! ------------------------------------------------------------------ kiriyaacittas, only in the sensuous plane, the > plane of ruupajjhaana, of aruupajjhaana, not the plane of lokuttara citta. > There are no lokuttara kiriyacittas. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thinking about it... it's a very idealistic viewpoint even for the usual cool-minded Abhidhammika! Mettaya, ícaro 30260 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 0:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Andrew, As I occasionally admit, I am a poor scholar: I may have a fair overall picture of the Dhamma, but it is very hazy on details. The overall picture is that there is just the present moment and it is one of six possible `worlds.' In one of those worlds (the world of the mind-door), consciousness may sometimes have a conceptual view – a view, not of the real world, but of how things may be, or will be, or have been in the past in the `overall scheme of things.' Now, in that particular moment, world is fine as far as it goes, but, since there is no experience of reality, it cannot be a moment of satipatthana (or vipassana). I have never thought we should stop having concepts: My overall understanding does not incline me towards walking across roads without looking or anything like that. It hasn't been dangerous in any way. So what is the problem that you see? ---------------- A: > You imply that "we" don't "really exist" - i.e. that "conventional wisdom" is illusory. But the Buddha described conventional designations as "sacca" or "truths". How can a "truth" be an "illusion"? ------------------------------ Is sacca a dhamma? If it is, I had better climb down off my soapbox. But I don't think it is. (Hopefully, this is just one of those hazy details.) ------------------------------- A: > By continuing to use this descriptive language in the way that you do, are you not going one step too far and smudging the message? I have no problem with an assertion that "we" don't exist in an ultimate sense, but that's not what you say. You say: "we" don't really exist. ---------------- What is the difference between `"we" don't exist in ultimate reality' and `"we" don't really exist?' ------------------ A: > When you are in the desert and see a mirage of water, do you say "the mirage doesn't exist" or "the water doesn't exist"? Don't we need to look at the mirage critically and when we do, we find that no water is involved at all. A Noble One who looks at a mirage doesn't see nothing. He sees a mirage. He sees truth and he knows its nature. --------------------------------- I still can't see the problem. -------------------- A: > Your descriptive language, IMHO, transforms anatta into a lop- sided doctrine, trying to push pannatti out of sight. I don't for one minute think that this is your intention but it is the impression that is given off when we state that derived truths "don't exist". Or have I missed something? --------------------------------- My descriptive language may be more fundamentalist than others'. It definitely comes from a shaky underlying understanding, but it seems to be right as far as the big picture is concerned. Trust me, there are only dhammas – all else is illusory – the end of the world is a long way off! :-) Kind regards, Ken H 30261 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/18/2004 1:30:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > I would like to ask you: how do you see element, dhaatu? ========================== If you give me instances, I will answer for each. As far as earth, air, fire, and water are concerned, I think of these as solidity/hardness, motion/movement, (varying degrees of) warmth/cold, and cohesion/fluidity, all direct elements of experience, and not concepts. Often, though, our minds substitute the concepts of these rupas for the rupic phenomena themselves, and when that happens we are not observing what we *think* we are observing. The mind is a great joker - a magician with a sense of humor! ;-) With metta, Howard 30262 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 10 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Whenever a new mind state arises, the old mind state has already gone. It already passes away. According to the rule of citta ( mind state ), which also is known as citta niyama or law of consciousness, no 2 mind states can arise together. Each arises and then falls away. As soon as one falls away, another state arises. This may sound like lighting a candle in a dark place. As soon as the light comes, the darkness passes away. Here, a 'mind state' ( not a mental state ) is a state of mind at a particular point or at a particular moment. It is called ' citta '. Talking on this matter may seem talking theories. The meditator will not be able to see each citta. But 'he' will be able to see his mind states in conventional term. For example, a mind with greed, a mind without greed, a mind with hatred, a mind without hatred, a mind with ignorance, a mind without ignorance, a slothful mind, a distracted mind, a developed mind, an undeveloped mind, an inferior mind, a superior mind etc etc are mind states that can be recognized. With a prolonged practice of meditation of this kind, the meditator will be able to see such mind states. He has been sitting in meditation concentrating on his breath as a primary meditational object. This does not mean that all mental faculties have to attend at breath all the time but instead, flexibly whenever a new mind state arises it arising will be recognized by another arising mind state. This state also passes away and another mind state may arise at breath or whatever object. This 'ever falling away' is the essence of impermanence called ' Anicca '. This type of meditation is not a simple observation but it is an active process with a well penetrating analytical wisdom. This mind state is associated with non-greed, non-hatred, non-ignorance so called ' triple rooted beautiful mind state ' ( Tihetuka Citta ). This kind of meditation is for development of insight. Insight here is direct seeing,direct understanding, direct realizing without any thinking process involved in such seeing. Depending on the environment he is in, there arise different mind states. If he has chosen a forest and if the meditation time is not a busy time, there will be less distractable outside influences. Here, a question may arise. Why busy in a forest? If early evening, animals will be busy preparing for their rest. If so there will be noice. But whatever environment he is in, objects are arising all the time according to conditions that favour their arising. So what matter here is to practise so that a well concentrated mind states arise. There is no control over any of these mind states as mind states are going according to conditions that favour their arising. Apparently as the practice has long been going on and on there arises a mind state that takes the primary meditational object as its object and as it has gone another mind state arises taking the primary meditational object again as its object. Here again, the primary meditational object is a conventional term. It is not a static object. New and new object also arises at their specific time according to the conditions that favour their arising. As this continuous arising of mind states with similar character are called a well concentrated mind or Samahitacitta. When such a mind state happen 'the meditator' recognizes that a well concentrated mind has arisen. May you all practise Mahasatipatthana to attain Nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30263 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Vism.XIV 61 (3 of 4) "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 [concerning bodily intimation] Note 27 cont': 'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this. The stiffening, upholding, and movement are due to the air element associated with the alteration belonging to the intimation, is what is said. What, is it all the air-element that does all those things? It is not like that. For it is the air-element given rise to by the seventh impulsion that, by acquiring as its reinforcing conditions the air elements given rise to by the preceding impulsions, moves consciousness-originated matter by acting as cause for its successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti--cf. Ch. VIII, n.54), not the others. The others, however, help it by doing the stiffening and upholding, the successive arising in adjacent locations being itself the movement. So the instrumentality should be taken as attributed when there is the sign [of movement]; otherwise there would not be uninterestedness and momentariness of dhammas. And here the cart to be drawn by seven yokes is given as simile in the commentary. But when consciousness-born matter moves, the kinds of matter born of temperature, kamma, and nutriment move too because they are bound up with it, like a piece of dry cow-dung thrown into a river's current. 30264 From: Andrew Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Ken H My original post really pertained to matters pedagogical. Having had the benefit of discussing things with you face-to-face over many years, I know and appreciate what you are getting at. It's your manner of getting the message across that I was addressing. Whilst this may seem pretty trivial, it is actually a huge issue on DSG - witness the continuing debates about why Buddha said "not self" instead of "no self". Perplexed, you wrote: > What is the difference between `"we" don't exist in ultimate > reality' and `"we" don't really exist?' A: As I see it, the difference is one of impression to an audience all of whom have a strong sense of "self". How many times have you encountered people who dismiss Dhamma with a wave of the hand and an incredulous laugh when they are first told that, according to Buddha, they "don't really exist". These people are not dummies, either. I believe you have had exactly this same experience with one of our nation's leading intellectuals? Well, IMHO, this is exactly the reason why Buddha spoke of "not-self" instead of "no self". I agree with Howard that it is a necessary result of the Buddha's teachings that "there is no self". But Buddha didn't just stroll up to people and say "you don't really exist". He encouraged them to look at aggregates themselves and determine "is this self" or "is this not self". Buddha was a very "switched on" teacher! He knew the result this line of inquiry leads to. Given that his motivation in teaching the Dhamma was compassion, he didn't pursue a line of teaching that would prompt instant rejection with no investigation. I proposed this metaphor: When you are in the desert and see a mirage of water, do you > say "the mirage doesn't exist" or "the water doesn't exist"? Don't > we need to look at the mirage critically and when we do, we find > that no water is involved at all. A Noble One who looks at a mirage > doesn't see nothing. He sees a mirage. He sees truth and he knows > its nature. > --------------------------------- Your response: I still can't see the problem. A: A mirage DOES exist and in our desperate state of ignorance, we take it for "water" and cling to that. But, ultimately, no water is involved. As a method of communication, do we just blandly state "there's no water there". In most cases, the response is one of disbelief and the person crawls on across the hot sands and perishes still with the belief that water is really there. Or do we ask people to investigate the conditions under which the mirage appears and to determine for each condition "is it water" or "is it not water" in a way that may prompt understanding? Buddha WAS very concerned with effective communication to his audience - any reading of the Aranavibhanga Sutta will demonstrate that. You wrote: > My descriptive language may be more fundamentalist than others'. It > definitely comes from a shaky underlying understanding, but it seems > to be right as far as the big picture is concerned. A: It may well be right in the big picture. Just remember to clean your paint-brush from time to time or that picture may get a bit smudgy! Best wishes Andrew 30265 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Robert Thanks! Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Hi Philip, > You can find it here: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm > > I recommend this link too - here you will another link to 'Useful > Posts' > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > Robert > > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > > > >> p.s How did you get on with your reading on Paramis > (Perfections)? > > > ====== > > 30266 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 (3 of 4) Hi Nina, A couple of comments and a question: 27: "'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this." L: "Previously established connexion" I take to be the convention "this movement signifies this meaning", e.g. holding up my hand in a certain way signifies "stop". If we disallow all convention and conceptuality in bodily intimation then what is intimated and why is bodily intimation an asabhava rupa? 27: "What, is it all the air-element that does all those things? It is not like that. For it is the air-element given rise to by the seventh impulsion that, by acquiring as its reinforcing conditions the air elements given rise to by the preceding impulsions, moves consciousness-originated matter by acting as cause for its successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti--cf. Ch. VIII, n.54), not the others. The others, however, help it by doing the stiffening and upholding, the successive arising in adjacent locations being itself the movement." L: "Others" and "preceding impulsions" I take to mean the first 6 of the 7-impulsion series (javana cittas). All 7 of these accomplish the work of intention, each in slightly different ways. Would you like to explain a little more? 27: "So the instrumentality should be taken as attributed when there is the sign [of movement]; otherwise there would not be uninterestedness and momentariness of dhammas." L: I don't quite get this but it could be something like: the appearance of movement should be attributed to the instrumentality of the javana cittas; otherwise there would be the belief in self as doer and a false sense of continuousness. Larry 30267 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Andrew and Ken, I would say: No, the view "there is no self" is not a necessary result of the Buddha's teaching. The view "there is no self" is a result of one's misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha's teaching is not about what exists or what does not exists. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Ken H [snip] > I agree > with Howard that it is a necessary result of the Buddha's teachings > that "there is no self". But Buddha didn't just stroll up to people > and say "you don't really exist". He encouraged them to look at > aggregates themselves and determine "is this self" or "is this not > self". Buddha was a very "switched on" teacher! He knew the result > this line of inquiry leads to. Given that his motivation in teaching > the Dhamma was compassion, he didn't pursue a line of teaching that > would prompt instant rejection with no investigation. > > I proposed this metaphor: > When you are in the desert and see a mirage of water, do you > > say "the mirage doesn't exist" or "the water doesn't exist"? Don't > > we need to look at the mirage critically and when we do, we find > > that no water is involved at all. A Noble One who looks at a mirage > > doesn't see nothing. He sees a mirage. He sees truth and he knows > > its nature. > > --------------------------------- > Your response: I still can't see the problem. > > A: A mirage DOES exist and in our desperate state of ignorance, we > take it for "water" and cling to that. But, ultimately, no water is > involved. As a method of communication, do we just blandly > state "there's no water there". In most cases, the response is one > of disbelief and the person crawls on across the hot sands and > perishes still with the belief that water is really there. Or do we > ask people to investigate the conditions under which the mirage > appears and to determine for each condition "is it water" or "is it > not water" in a way that may prompt understanding? > Buddha WAS very concerned with effective communication to his > audience - any reading of the Aranavibhanga Sutta will demonstrate > that. > > You wrote: > > My descriptive language may be more fundamentalist than others'. > It > > definitely comes from a shaky underlying understanding, but it > seems > > to be right as far as the big picture is concerned. > > A: It may well be right in the big picture. Just remember to clean > your paint-brush from time to time or that picture may get a bit > smudgy! > > Best wishes > Andrew 30268 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 (3 of 4) Hi Nina, I see my mistake in interpreting "asabhava rupa". The rupas classified as without an individual characteristic are so classified because they are not produced by any of the 4 means of production: kamma, nutriment, consciousness, temperature. Rather, they are attributes, qualities, modes of such produced rupa. "Asabhava rupa" has nothing to do with concepts even though concept plays a role in the 2 intimations. Asabhava rupas are: space, bodily intimation, vocal intimation, lightness, malleability, weildiness, production, continuity, decay, impermanence. Therefore, the following has to be interpreted in a different way: 27: "'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this." L: Maybe "previously-established connexion" refers to "There is a certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion. And the apprehension of the former is next to the apprehension of the latter. How is that to be known? By the apprehension of intention." [from 2 of 3] In other words, one apprehends not only the motion of the air element etc., but also one apprehends a subtle physical indication of intention that is separate from the motion. You can tell when someone is trying to communicate something by a gesture, even if you don't understand what that something is. You can tell an intimating gesture from a non-intimating gesture by this physical sign of intentionality. This physical indication of intention, a subtle phenomenon, is "a certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion". Perhaps. Larry 30269 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi, Victor (and Andrew and Ken) - In a message dated 2/18/04 8:48:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Andrew and Ken, > > I would say: No, the view "there is no self" is not a necessary > result of the Buddha's teaching. The view "there is no self" is a > result of one's misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching. > > The Buddha's teaching is not about what exists or what does not > exists. > > Metta, > Victor > ============================ I suppose that one might say that the Buddha's teaching is mainly about coming to the point of not clinging to anything as "I" or "mine". A statement to that effect does occur in at least one sutta, and it is one of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's favorite slogans. And I suppose there are a number of alternative ways of saying what the Buddha's teaching is about while standing on one foot. ;-) One question, though, about which I am curious as to your understanding is the following: What is meant by "Sabbe dhamma anatta"? Doesn't this mean that nothing is self? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30270 From: Eznir Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Dear Sarah & Philip. "Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress." [Lonaphala Sutta AN-III.99 ] One of the differences between a Puthujjana(ordinary person) and a Sekha(one in training) is the Kamma, ones actions. The actions of a Puthujjana is misdirected with respect to Nibbana. While that of a Sekha is directed towards Nibbana, the goal. Therefore whenever one performs an action it should be directed. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma". [Kamma Sutta SN-XXXV.145 ] And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. " [Kamma Sutta SN-XXXV.145 ] And how does one direct kamma? Through ones intentions. Intention is action. First having intended one acts. The direction of this Intention should be towards practicing the noble 8-fold path. Why? Because it leads to the cessation of Kamma, ie., Nibbana. Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Philip, > > I agree with these comments with the possible exception of any idea of > `directing' attachment in `as wholesome a direction as possible'. > .... > > I wonder if the same can be said of the energy of anger within us > > and ask, as a beginner, whether directing it in a skillful direction > > might be possible? > ..... > The reason I question this is because it suggests that `we' can direct > anything and that there can be a skillful direction for anger or greed > which is very questionable I think. > > Perhaps you'd care to elaborate further. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s How did you get on with your reading on Paramis (Perfections)? > ====== > > > 30271 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Howard, As I understand it, "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means all phenomena (dhamma) are not self. In other words, every phenomenon(dhamma) is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." I know you can reason and conclude that "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means nothing is self. With the conclusion "nothing is self", you can again reason and reach the conclusion "there is no self." Nevertheless, with that kind of discursive reasoning, the original meaning of what the Buddha said is further distorted and misrepresented. At the end, you adopt the view "there is no self", a misrepresentation of what the Buddha actually taught, and that view blocks you from seeing every phenomenon as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." It is not easy for one to abandon a speculative view that he or she holds onto. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor (and Andrew and Ken) - > > In a message dated 2/18/04 8:48:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Andrew and Ken, > > > > I would say: No, the view "there is no self" is not a necessary > > result of the Buddha's teaching. The view "there is no self" is a > > result of one's misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching. > > > > The Buddha's teaching is not about what exists or what does not > > exists. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > ============================ > I suppose that one might say that the Buddha's teaching is mainly > about coming to the point of not clinging to anything as "I" or "mine". A > statement to that effect does occur in at least one sutta, and it is one of Buddhadasa > Bhikkhu's favorite slogans. And I suppose there are a number of alternative > ways of saying what the Buddha's teaching is about while standing on one foot. > ;-) > One question, though, about which I am curious as to your > understanding is the following: What is meant by "Sabbe dhamma anatta"? Doesn't this mean > that nothing is self? > > With metta, > Howard 30272 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:31pm Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, Howard: I'll only insert a couple comments in the following. The bottom line is that I am close to 100% in disagreement with you on this. ;-) To me it is crystal clear that practicing that Dhamma requires constant vigilance and volition, and that the Buddha taught this in inumerable suttas and contexts. ------------------------- Sukin: If one's day consists of mindlessly reacting to sensual objects and getting lost in thoughts, then surely this will not be good. In contrast if there *is* constant vigilance of what is going on through the six doorways, one could then be said to be moving ahead towards the goal. However, who but the very advanced would be able to be constantly vigilant? Is not the strength and frequency of sati dependent on how much panna has been developed and this must start as you say, `from where we are'? ;-) ---------------------- Howard: Right effort, as far as I'm concerned, consists of what the Buddha said it consists of. When he spoke of right effort, he was quite specific, and he wasn't speaking in terms of some sort of Abhidhammic ultimate that is always present. The Buddha was largely teaching worldlings when he taught right effort (and much of the rest), and he gave instructions that could be understood and followed by worldlings. --------------------- Sukin: I think the Buddha's teachings is useful for all levels of understanding. Not only specific discourses were made for specific persons or groups, but even we, whose panna cannot compare with those people then, can gain some benefit or the other. Even conventional application is good compared to no application at all. This would however depend on the level of *our* understanding, not on the meaning in the ultimate sense of the Teachings. But with our `intellectual knowledge' of the ultimate meaning, why must we choose to apply the Teachings as if we don't have it? ------------------------ Howards: As I've said before,we start where we are, not where we hope to be. ------------------------ Sukin: Yes, but isn't the intellectual knowledge part of where we are? Who is talking about the knowledge of the Tilakkhana or Paticcasamupada as if they have had direct knowledge? Everyone admits that their understanding is only intellectual. This intellectual knowledge however, though it is far from realization, is enough to cause us to look in the right direction. And I think this is a key point. Do we see pariyatti as a stepping stone towards practice in the sense that one makes the *decision* to apply the teachings? Do we have a mental picture with regard to theory and practice? I think such mental constructs are result of ignorance fuelled by desire. In reality dhammas rise and fall performing their individual functions. It is not up to us to *apply*. With our level of understanding, we wouldn't know when the development has taken place (only on hindsight after seeing the change on the adze handle). Should we fool ourselves thinking that we know when practice is to take place, and more so with the subsequent image of "I" having done so? --------------------- Howard: You say that effort is always present, but sati and pa~n~na may not be. In checking the universal cetasikas, I don't see effort (or energy-viriya). Maybe it's there but I'm just missing it. ----------------------- Sukin: I said, with the exception of the ten sense door cittas. ------------------------ Howard: But even if effort to some degree is always there, it may be weak. Moreover, if to make the effort "right" sati and pa~n~na are required, how do they come about. Ultimately, it must come down to either cultivation (powered by volition and effort) or by sheer dumb luck! But the Buddha taught his students to take steps! ----------------------- Sukin: Meeting the wise friend, hearing the dhamma, reflecting on it and applying it, is how sati and panna is developed. Why must you conclude that if one is not deliberately doing something that it is because he thinks it is up to chance? Isn't this revolved around self view? And isn't also our understanding of `effort' being confused with the conventional idea of it? So the two together conditions the image in our mind of `someone making up his mind to *do* something'? ---------------------------------------------------- I think you agree with > > this. So firstly, should we be concerned particularly with "effort"? > Should we not be more concerned about understanding the present > moment. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Can't do that without volition and effort! (Every sentient being, except when in an unconscious stupor, observes always and only the present moment(in reality), but not all sentient beings are engaged in Buddhist practice and heading in the right direction. (I add no further comment until the end.) -------------------------------------------------- Sukin: "Every sentient being observes always and only the present moment(in reality)". "Observes" or `experiences'? And the important thing is that he is *ignorant* of it, instead of *understanding* it!! If you think that the difference between Buddhist practice and those of other religions is in the `effort and volition applied', then on that level I would say that it is no different from other religions at all!! All religions teach one form of sense control or the other. And the `self' they teach in principle is no different from the `self' that you are suggesting in practice. The `guarding of the senses' taught by the Buddha, is different from other religions in that it revolves around the understanding of the difference between paramattha objects and `thinking' that happens as a consequence. All kinds of kusala is encouraged, even temporary suppression and sublimation as in James' recent example about directing the mind to other kinds of thoughts, it is however not the ultimate goal or even a part of the main teaching of the Buddha. Besides, even when the Buddha talked about these, his intention is so that the hearer will then attend to his experiences more sensibly, i.e. satipatthana. ……I think…? ;-) ============================ Howard: I understand you to be basically saying that there is nothing that can be done. I see this this as a doctrine of hopelessness,and I definitely see it as contrary to the Buddha's teaching. With metta, Howard ============================= Sukin: Does studying and applying the teachings of the Buddha encourage hope? If so, then this can breed hopelessness upon change of conditions. But I don't get such an impression with regard to the Teachings. It makes me feel sober understanding as little as I do about conditionality, but this is not the same as feeling hopeless. In fact it has taken a lot of burden off me. And part of this burden used to be `the self' who was seeking progress and struggling wrongly to get there. Are we now 100% in disagreement, or are we a little less so than before? ;-) Metta, Sukin. 30273 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/19/04 1:26:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > As I understand it, "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means all phenomena > (dhamma) are not self. In other words, every phenomenon(dhamma) is > to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is > not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > I know you can reason and conclude that "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means > nothing is self. With the conclusion "nothing is self", you can > again reason and reach the conclusion "there is no self." > Nevertheless, with that kind of discursive reasoning, the original > meaning of what the Buddha said is further distorted and > misrepresented. At the end, you adopt the view "there is no self", > a misrepresentation of what the Buddha actually taught, and that > view blocks you from seeing every phenomenon as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > It is not easy for one to abandon a speculative view that he or she > holds onto. > > Metta, > ============================ On the basis of language meaning, or any other basis, I would like to know how you distinguish "All phenomena are not self" from "No phenomena are self". These are normally logically eqivalent paraphrases, just as "All cows are not reptiles" means the same as "No cows are reptiles". As far as formal logic is concerned, using 'A' for the universal quantifier and 'E' for the existential quantifier, the sentence "All phenomena are not self" is of the form (A x) ~ Self(x), and the sentence "No phenomena are self" is of the form ~ (E x) Self(x). And these are logically equivalent. What do you understand "All phenomena are not self" to mean? Do you presume the sense of "all" is restricted in some sense, or do you attribute some special meaning to it that is not obvious? What about the statement that says "All sankhara are impermanent"? Using ordinary logic, this is equivalent to "No sankhara is permanent". Do you think it is possible that all sankhara are impermanent, and yet some sankhara is permanent? If not, why not? In the same way, as soon as one knows that all phenomena are not self, one also knows that no phenomenon is self. It's exactly the same. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30274 From: Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, sukin - In a message dated 2/19/04 1:32:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Does studying and applying the teachings of the Buddha encourage > hope? ========================= I approve of studying the Dhamma, and I approve of applying it. Both of these require volition and effort. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30275 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Tks for your reply. Very clear. Maybe you can expand a little bit on one > thing you said. .... S:A pleasure;-) .... > Michael: > > I can relate to your description and I like the idea of a spiral. But > the key passage here is "the intellectual right understanding slowly > becomes a foundation for sati". Why slowly? And what makes the > intellectual understanding evolve into sati? How is that feat achieved? > What are the 'right ingredients' you refer to? .... S:Excellent Qs! I said slowly because I think for most of us today, we need to hear a lot of details and to hear them repeatedly for the message to sink in so that satipatthana can begin to develop. Even in the Buddha’ s time, he would repeatedly give comments like: “Bhikkhus, I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once. On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress.” (MN,70) I mentioned another sutta recently with regard to the ‘gradual slope’ like the ocean bed as well. We’ve been accumulating ignorance over so many aeons, so patience is definitely called for. Actually, fast/slow - it’s all relative. Probably the reason I mention ‘slowly’ is because so often I hear people feeling frustrated about the lack of progress, lack of noticable change in akusala tendencies and so on. We all forget the adze handle simile;-) Any panna (whether intellectual or direct understanding) is a condition for more understanding, awareness and other wholesome states to arise. If there is no theoretical understanding of the objects of satipatthana, of the clear distinction between namas and rupas and if these are considered as self, awareness of these realities cannot develop. The converse is true. Having heard that seeing only sees ‘visible object,’ it can be a condition for awareness right now of ‘visible object’ without any intention or focussing (which would of course guarantee that there wasn’t awareness at this moment;-)). So, the right ingredients are the right conditions. It is the careful considering and reflecting on true Dhamma, a level of panna, that will be the main ingredient for further development, along with other supporting factors (natural decisive support and other conditions) from the present, a moment ago, a decade ago, an aeon ago. Almost any state or rupa can act as a decisive support. Even past anger can be a condition for panna as object if there are other right conditions. [Like Sukin has been stressing, it's not a matter of having perfect intellectual understanding, then direct understanding and so on, hence the spiral analogy. Sati arises with each wholesome citta, but when we refer to satipatthana, we're referring to understanding and sati which have a nama or rupa (not a concept of them) as object.] ..... M: >And again how to avoid > the trap of a self doing something while there is no self at all, it is > just a mere concept of fantasy. .... By understanding the present moment. As you say, any idea of self is ‘just a mere concept of fantasy’ however well-packaged it may be. [This is why I appreciate KenH’s direct and clear crystal glass comments which don’t allow any fudging (imvho Andrew, but pls continue your tough interrogations;-);-))]. If there is an idea of avoiding wrong views, again the self creeps in. This is why it has to be the path of detachment, understanding whatever reality appears without selection. If that reality is wrong view, so be it. It’s just another conditioned nama, that’s all, no self in it, outside it, belonging to it or belonged by it. At moments of panna, there’s no doubt or hesitation about namas and rupas being any kind of self and no delusion about concepts being real. Any more Qs or comments? Metta, Sarah ====== 30276 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:50pm Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, > ========================= >I approve of studying the Dhamma, and I approve of applying it. Both of these require volition and effort. ========================= Sure, both these cetasikas will be there in all javana cittas. However, is picking up the Tipitaka to read, or listening to dhamma, or discussions, be instances of 'pariyatti'? Would telling oneself 'to do this' or 'not do that' be 'patipatti'? Metta, Sukin. 30277 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > S: Good - sometimes we need to clarify that we are just discussing > cittasand cetasikas;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not exactly. I am talking how to get through the samsara. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: What do you mean by ‘get through’? For worldlings, is there anything other than cittas, cetasikas and rupas in samsara? ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: This is when it starts sounding like `atta', when there is > a > suggestion of `pushing' or `choice'. What dhamma is > this `choice'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please ride on words and do not look at words. > > Hermit Sumedho made a choice to become a Sammasambuddha. He as a > hermit at that time had enough perfection to get through the samsara. > > Here are many atta. Hermit atta. Sumedho atta. choice atta. and > endless atta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: So when you mention ‘choice’ , do you mean ‘by conditions’..... For example, when you mention ‘choosing to concentrate’, or here ‘choosing to become a Sammasambuddha’, how do you understand it in paramattha terms? Obviously great panna is involved in determining the Bodhisatta’s path. Is this true when there is the determination to concentrate at this moment? ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: 'conditions' ? I think many atta will follow behind the > explanation of conditions. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: We’re talking about the conditions for panna to arise. We can use the word self or atta or any other word. It just depends on the understanding when we use them what is meant. Sometimes we need to discuss for sometime to know. ?... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There is no Htoo Naing, there is no Sarah, there is no DSG. There is > no one discussing. There is no one responding. There is no 'we'. > > As soon as idea of self is lost then ... clear? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:I think it’s only finally eradicated without trace by sotapatti-magga citta. Until then, even though we agree there is no ‘we’ and throw it out of the bag and say it’s not on the map, it has a bad habit of creeping in whenever there’s an opportunity. ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am just collecting materials, tools, equipment and other > things that might be needed during the journey. I have not even drawn > out the map from the drawer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: Oh, this is great;-) We’re going to be really well equipped;-) Yes, let’s not worry about the map or route until we have all the right materials at the outset. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: No `by whom'. By panna as leader with the support of its > co-arising > ministers such as sati, samadhi, viriya etc. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I already know the answer you will reply in advance. You are > coming in and going out of the boundries. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: ;-) .... > Sarah: >Definitely we both agree that any `atta' must be thrown > out of > the bags at the outset;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: As soon as you have thrown it away, then ... clear? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: Clear for an instant. Panna is so very brief. It’s a bit like bailing out water on a boat as we cross a river....there’ll be more bailing out of ‘atta’ on route I’m sure;-) .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not thinking but I am seeing 'Atta'. Atta of fun. :-)) > > Be happy all the time. .... S: Yes, let’s have fun and be happy as we bail out ‘atta’ - or rather, I should say, as panna bails out ‘atta’;-) Thanks for sharing your comments and your good humour, Htoo. Metta, Sarah ====== 30278 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi James (& Htoo), I hope your laptop gets fixed quickly - I get withdrawal symptoms when you’re away and no one’s giving me a hard time ;-) .... -- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: I mean, only the right conditions will bring the right > results. Is this `trying' or `pushing' one of them? If so which? > Doesn't is suggest an `atta'? > > James: Sarah, could you please explain in detail, in your own words, > why `trying', or `striving', or `effort' suggests an `atta', a self? > Just as `smoke' would suggest a `fire', and one can be linked to the > other, please explain why `trying' would suggest a self and how they > are linked. I would like your own words as explanation since this is > obviously an idea that you have. ..... I think it depends on the context and meaning of the writer. This is why I’ve been discussing in some detail with Htoo as I’d like to understand his meaning when he uses these terms. To give a few examples: 1. We may talk in everyday language about striving to keep the house clean, trying to correct the students’ homework or making an effort to do more exercise. I say these things all the time and they’re perfectly good and acceptable examples of conventional language. When we use them, they are clearly not being made as statements of any special deep truths or methods of mental development. 2. We may talk about striving to be aware of the body or trying to focus on walking or sensations or meditation. We start to enter what I might call a ‘fudged picture’ area. What you, Htoo and I might mean by any of these expressions could be quite different and quite significant with regard to any understanding of the Buddha’s teachings. As I see it, if there is any suggestion of ‘selection’ or any nama or rupa other than what has arisen aleady as being the object of understanding, then it is an indication of desire. In addition, it would indicate a lack of appreciation of the conditioned nature of present dhammas as being anatta. Furthermore, if there is any idea that ‘body’ or ‘walking’, for example, can be objects of satipatthana, this would be wrong. Htoo and I agree on this. 3. We may talk about making an effort or striving to be aware of feelings or anger or rupas or mental factors. In this case, there is no argument about the objects of satipatthana, but again an idea of someone making an effort or striving or being able to select objects can creep in. ..... Let me ask you this Q: If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some chores/be aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental factors in meditation practice, who or what is ‘trying’, ‘striving’ or making this ‘effort’? Metta, Sarah ====== 30279 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 0:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Hi Andy, --- Andy Wilson wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and further detail. <....> A: >Oh, I jumped out of my reading of the AS to > read Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Everyday Life', as I found it's direct, > practical tone especially helpful. ..... I think we all find different books/texts helpful at the outset - for some it is a Sutta collection, for others an Abhidhamma text. This book was incredibly helpful for me as soon as I opened it. Take your time and share any comments here. I like to use AS as a reference text. They are very complimentary. ..... <...> A: >(I should excplain that we are still living together while we try > to sell our flat, and we work together, so I see her most of the day > every day, which makes coming to terms with seperation a full-time job > for me) would make me very angry with her. I did not express this anger > except that it must have been obvious on my face and my manner. ..... Still, in between the anger, there must be moments of skilful abstention from expression and perhaps even some kindness and consideration too. So we see that even though it might seem that there’s nothing but anger, mental states and cittas are changing all the time. There are also processes of seeing and hearing and so on at these times. .... A: >However, > when I felt this anger I was almost pleased because it took the hurt > away for a while. .... It’s natural. Just be patient as Christine ured. Don’t expect too much too quickly. Clinging to self is very deep-rooted. In time there will be more acceptance of the new scenario. sometimes one can even smile at all the dosa (anger) which is just to visible objects, sounds, feelings and imaginatary concepts in the end;-) ..... A: >The fact that sometimes anger is a relief makes it > even harder for me to escape the anger than it is for me to escape the > depression. I suppose that is just another level of mistaken view to > deal with(?) ..... We all have lots of mistaken views, especially about people really existing. I’m sure it’s a difficult time for your ex-partner too. (Maybe you have friends you could stay with or could consider renting a cheap place til the flat is sold??) ..... A: > 5. thinking in objective ways about the situation (eg. writing this > mail). In other words, getting any kind of intellectual distance from my > feelings helped. this sounds unusual i guess in a world where we are > always being told to 'get in touch with our feelings'. i am not sure > that this distance is neccesarily a good thing, but I can see that it > seems to help from moment to moment. ..... Understanding feelings and other realities for what they are can only be with detachment. Why does understanding develop slowly, a friend asked, and perhaps we can answer by saying ‘not enough detachment’. .... <....> A: > Therefore I suppose I'm inclined to think that a lot of work is involved > in transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil, as they say, > and that I should feel free to interpret dhamma in the critical spirit > the texts seem to encourage, rejecting the inessential in order to get a > tighter grip on the heart of the dhamma. ..... I’d say, just appreciate and understand what makes senseand is useful at this point without being too concerned for now about ‘transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil’. Sometimes, aspects of the teachings which seem senseless, irrelevant or culture-bound now take on greater relevance at another time. Just put them aside without rejection for now. The same applies to any discussions here. .... A: > reading between the lines this sounds like maybe a heterodox position > for this list. would that be the case? do people believe that exisiting > traditions are good enough 'as is', or is there a need to radically > rework and reinterpret? ..... You’d get a wide set of responses on this if everyone replied. I’m an ‘as is’, only because I think that most the time it is our ignorance which speaks when we think there needs to be a radical reworking. After all, we’re reading about the Buddha’s omniscient knowledge. I think that even the ‘radical reworkers’ can be grateful for the long and strong tradition of ‘as is’ bhikkhus who have preserved the original teachings for us to read, consider and form our own judgments about. Metta, Sarah p.s Look forward to a progress report and what you’re finding helpful at each stage;-) Glad to have you here. ===== 30280 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Philip, --- Philip wrote: > Hello Sarah. Thank you for remembering me! It may still be a while > before I understand once and all that studying seriously with a group > like this is more beneficial than cavorting at the general Buddhist > forums where I spend too much of my time, but I sense that day is > coming. ..... Good news;-) As I just said to Andy who is also pretty new here, just read what is helpful in the beginning and put aside anything too technical or not relevant to your concerns. Also, I recommend to any newcomers to just start new threads of your own anytime. .... P: >I found it a bit hard going here because of my lack of > knoweledge of the Pali terms, but that's why there is a glossary > available for us here. .... For others, this is in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms We all use this dictionary a lot as well: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html It’s been my invaluable guide for 30 years in book form! ..... P: > I still haven't read Nina's book on the Paramis. The intention has > been ripening, though. :) .... Now you’ve got the link, why not start on the first chapter and share your comments or any quotes of special significance. Nina and the rest of us would be glad to hear them. ..... P: > This and the comments that followed were helpful for me. I have > been reading and thinking more about Upekkha since I last posted, and > see that I was taking it in the wrong way. Without Right View to > remind me of the true nature of phenomena, I was taking Upekkha as a > kind of bubble to protect ME from the world, instead of seeing it as > an energy to be safe in because there is no real barrier of self > there and no attachment, therefore, to worldy concerns which feed on > self-image. .... I think you’d find it helpful to read more about upekkha at this link under ‘equanimity’ in Nina’s book on the Cetasikas (mental factors) http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas32.html Also see upekkha and brahma viharas in U.P> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... P: > I should have elaborated more about what Ayya Khema said. She said > that those whose primary defilement is greed could possibly channel > that energy into faith, which would be a way of generating energy and > enthusiasm for one's practice. So it wasn't consciously justifying > greed, per se, but channeling any remnant of it into faith. .... Hmm....I’m not sure about this. Maybe I’m taking it too literally, but I don’t see that any defilement can be ‘channeled’ into a wholesome factor. It also sounds rather ‘self-like’ to me. Perhaps it means simply to contrast the characteristics of factors such as wholesome faith and energy with unwholesome states such as greed? .... P:> Thank you, Sarah, and all. > Now, hopefully I WILL be going into this group's files for serious > study rather than fooling around at general forums. :) .... We’re all allowed some fun too :-) We may have all sorts of intentions,but anything can happen by conditions. Let us know how your reading and reflecting goes, wherever that takes place. Metta, Sarah p.s thx RobK for promptly giving the link ====== 30281 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] definately faithless Hi John, S:Welcome to DSG. The ‘faithless’ are welcome too;-) --- John Hoban wrote: > Hello, > I'm in the Pocono mtn.s of Pennsylvania .... S:Thanks for letting us know. I think there are a few posters from Penn. .... > I'm not selling anything, I don't think, but I'd like to find some > answers. I think I've heard the stuff about no answers and paths to > grow and experience not words. > I agree. So what are we doing here? Exchanging words I mean. Beats > the > hell outta me. .... S:LOL.... the answers may not be words, but they can help us to understand the answers....;-) .... >I probably won't be here (on the board I mean) long. > You may detect a chord of negativism. Absolutely. And sarcasm,.... .... S:That’s a no-no here....hmmm....maybe you could follow the route of some members who write in draft form first and leave it for a while if it seems to be a problem. Maybe you’ll just find us all so cool that these past habits won’t arise;-) ... <..> >But > I'll > tell you why I'm here... This debate about annatta vs. reincarnation > has always bothered me. Long before I heard the words or any > arguments > about it. The simple question: Is there any personal identity (if > anything at all for that matter) after biological death? > I think when I was younger it bothered me more in a vanity kinda way. .... S:Deep thinking even if ‘faithless’.... .... > Then 6 years ago, my wife died. Things were left unsaid. So now I > think > the question takes on another broader perspective. One of fairness. I > think she deserved more than what she got in that incarnation and I'd > like to know she's getting better stuff now or at least on her way to > better stuff, depending on the scale of things. .... S:It’s so difficult for us to know what’s fair. From the way we mostly see things here, everything is fair and we all get what we deserve. If it seemed like she deserved better, don’t fear, her good deeds will bring their own good results sooner or later. We think in terms of ‘personal identity’, but really there’s just a stream or current of mental and physical phenomena arising and falling by conditions. Your comments touch me and act as a reminder to treat those around us as well as we can while we have the chance. Thanks for this. John, we’re all full of lots of rotten stuff - none of us do as well as we like. We just have to let the past go. .... > Some may argue that it's still for selfish reasons I want to know, be > that as it may, let me ask you, isn't it a good question? Can't you > think of people and examples in your own life, who have died, whose > PRESENT welfare and balancing of the scales of fairness and joy you'd > like to be confident about. .... S:Your Qs are good ones and of course we’d all like to know that the life streams of those we’ve loved are in happy realms and experiencing joy as you say. We can’t know, but we can perform good deeds and hope they might appreciate these and also be confident that any good they did will bring joy sooner or later. .... > If your answer is wait and see. That too unsure. What if I simply > forget everything when I die. No. NOW is the only time for knowing, > for > me. And I don't. Anybody know? .... S:Nobody knows - no anybody to know. As you say, NOW is the only time for knowing. So if there’s thinking about the past now, the thinking can be known as real. The past is just an imagination. It’s gone, never to return. Pls ask more questions and let us know how this sounds. Pls be patient with any slow responses from me or anyone too. Metta & Peace, Sarah ====== 30282 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and (Ken H), > > I read the commentary you quoted. But how does the commentary that > you quoted support the claim that the first sign of right > understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as > rupa? .... The commentary showed that the sutta (you selected) is describing supramundane wisdom and not the first signs of right understanding. Sometimes we have to look at various suttas and other texts for more details as I indicated;-) This is why Ken H is trying to have you look at the Satipatthana sutta for example. Metta, Sarah p.s On dry-insight..... see Kitagiri sutta M70 for more details about all the various ways of attaining arahantship (the seven kinds of persons). The second is the 'one liberated by wisdom' (pa~n~naavimutta). ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl: "What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisom.* I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent." *footnote: Pa~n`naavimutta. MA: This includes those who attain arahantship either as dry-insight meditators (sukkha-vipassaka) or after emerging from one or another of the four jhaanas. The Pug. definition merely substitutes the eight liberations for “those liberations....transcending forms.” I think that it depends on the context what kind of pannavimutta is being referred to: in the Susima sutta, it indicates they are sukkha-vipassaka, whereas in an AN sutta you quoted, it is referring to those who have emerged from jhanas. Thanks for all your sutta references and challenging comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 30283 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:38am Subject: The 10 Winners of Clever Conduct! Friends: The 10 Protectors of Clever Conduct: There are 3 kinds of advantageous Bodily behaviour. There are 4 kinds of advantageous Verbal behaviour. There are 3 kinds of advantageous Mental behaviour. ------------------ What are the 3 kinds of advantageous Bodily behaviour ? 1: Avoiding Killing of living beings, harmless with rod & weapon laid down, gentle & kind, understanding & friendly to all breathing beings! 2: Avoiding Stealing others property, avoiding taking what is not given, whether in forest or village, leaving all theft & fraud behind! 3: Avoiding Sexual Misconduct by abstaining from partners protected by father, mother, brother, sister, family, who is married or engaged to other side, imprisoned or protected by the law... These are the 3 kinds of advantageous Bodily behaviour ! ------------------ What are the 4 kinds of advantageous Verbal behaviour ? 4: Avoiding Lying and all false speech, so when called to the court, hearing, conference, family or professional gathering and asked as a witness, when knowing one answers: 'I know', when not knowing one answers: 'I does not know', when having seen one answers: 'I saw', when not having seen one answers: 'I did not see'. Thus one does not, fully aware -consciously- speak any false, for the purpose of one's own gain, neither for the sake of another's, nor for some trifling thing. 5: Avoiding Aggressive, abusive, irritated & malicious Speech, one does not hurt others with the weapon of the tongue or pen. One speaks kindly, gently, courteously, pleasing to the ear, what is agreeable to the majority. 6: Avoiding Splitting Speech & slander, one do not report there what heard here, nor here what was heard there, with the intention of dividing people. Rather one re-unites those who are in opposition, a promoter of friendships, who enjoys & delights in harmony & unity. 7: Avoiding babbling nonsense, chatting, idle & Empty Gossip one speaks the naked facts, at the appropriate time, tells what is really Good, what is Dhamma, what is Moral, what is worth remembering, what is Rational, Reasonable & Advantageous. These are the 4 kinds of advantageous Verbal behaviour ! ------------------ What are the 3 kinds of advantageous Mental behaviour ? 8: Avoiding any Envy, Jealousy & Desire after other's possessions, associations & property by wishing: "Oh may what is his, be mine". 9: Avoiding any Ill-will & Hostility, inwardly freed from any aversion, always well-wishing thus: "Oh may these beings be freed from enmity, pain & anxiety. May they live happily, without sadness or sorrow!" 10: Avoiding any Wrong View such as: "There is no benefit in giving, offering or self-sacrifice. There is neither good nor bad action nor any effects thereof. There is neither this world nor any other world. There is no reason to honour neither father nor mother. Spontaneously arised beings & recluses, who by own power visit & explain this & other worlds do not exist... These are not ..." One expels all such wrong views . These are the 3 kinds of advantageous Mental behaviour ! ------------------ Constantly remaining well within these 10 kinds of behaviour, caused by these, some beings here, at the breakup of the body, after death, will reappear in a happy & blissful state, even in the Divine realms of existence. No painful downfall will be theirs. Thus are these the 10 protectors of advantageous behaviour. All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30284 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Dear Howard: >;-) > One question, though, about which I am curious as to your > understanding is the following: What is meant by "Sabbe dhamma anatta"? Doesn't this mean > that nothing is self? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps a straightfowrad translation would fit it well: "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" = Dhammas are always devoid of Self Mettaya, Ícaro 30285 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Htoo: Not exactly. I am talking how to get through the samsara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: What do you mean by `get through'? For worldlings, is there anything other than cittas, cetasikas and rupas in samsara? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Breaking the circle up. Citta, Cetasika, Rupa at the site of Sankhata Dhatu and Nibbana at the site of Asankhata Dhatu. If you lose yourself and you have been merged with Paramattha, yes there are only 3 things in the circle. And the breaking of the circle again has to do with these 3 things again. But if you have not lost yourself and you are talking cittas, cetasikas and rupas, you are learning theories of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas. But not other certain way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: So when you mention `choice' , do you mean `by conditions'..... For example, when you mention `choosing to concentrate', or here `choosing to become a Sammasambuddha', how do you understand it in paramattha terms? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: While you are living in Pannatta domain your talk on Paramattha would be different. Someone once wrote, ' A citta and a group of cetasikas enter a room '. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: We're talking about the conditions for panna to arise. We can use the word self or atta or any other word. It just depends on the understanding when we use them what is meant. Sometimes we need to discuss for sometime to know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Learn on the way. Arising is conditions related. No one can choice. As you said, there was no Sumedho but citta and a group of cetasikas and pannindriya cetasika arose. Cittas and Cetasikas arose and fell away continuously and Cittas and Cetasikas failed to arise over 2600 years back. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I think it's only finally eradicated without trace by sotapatti- magga citta. Until then, even though we agree there is no `we' and throw it out of the bag and say it's not on the map, it has a bad habit of creeping in whenever there's an opportunity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Got it. But you seem eradicated Atta but still with traces. Even though you have thrown away it will creep in back into your bag. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am just collecting materials, tools, equipment and other things that might be needed during the journey. I have not even drawn out the map from the drawer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Oh, this is great;-) We're going to be really well equipped;-) Yes, let's not worry about the map or route until we have all the right materials at the outset. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you have right materials? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: As soon as you have thrown it away, then ... clear? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Clear for an instant. Panna is so very brief. It's a bit like bailing out water on a boat as we cross a river....there'll be more bailing out of `atta' on route I'm sure;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's great! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not thinking but I am seeing 'Atta'. Atta of fun. :-)) Be happy all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, let's have fun and be happy as we bail out `atta' - or rather, I should say, as panna bails out `atta';-) Thanks for sharing your comments and your good humour, Htoo. Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I really appreciate your kind communication. May you be free of wrong view. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30286 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:52am Subject: What is mental fermentation (Asava) ? Hi friend asked: > what is Mental Fermentation (asava)? Asava, asava ?, friend Sariputta. Please tell me what is the asavas ? 'There are these three asavas, Friend: The mental fermentation of Sensuality, [ex: sensing is always good, never painful] The mental fermentation of Becoming, [ex: existence is all fun, always painless] The mental fermentation of Ignorance, [ex: not knowing is innocent & painless] These are the three mental fermentations (asavas), friend.' Comments: Asavas means literally: Fermentations, 'that which is brewed', the result of a chemical [in this case though: mental] reaction, where 2 or more things have gone together, reacted, and become a third and different thing! Like when making fermented brew: Sugar + water + yeast + heat => alcohol + gas. Neither alcohol nor gas is identical with sugar nor water, nor yeast nor heat ... Its something else ... !!! Same, Same with the Fermentations (Asavas); these are newly produced [mis]-conceptions & [mis]-assumptions like in this example: We make the observation: 'The horizont is linear.' We then assume & project by conceptual thinking: 'The earth is flat'! This asava, mental fermentation, this mental construction: 'flat earth' which is not the same at all as the observation: 'the horizont is linear'. Nor is it implied nor can it be deduced from the observation. It have (un-noticed) become something different: 'An idea' which is an mere 'internal representation', merely 'a painted image of how it MIGHT MAYBE look-alike'...!!! Mind always produce an answer even if not asked! The BIG AS THEY COME failures result when we mistake 'the idea' that the earth is flat, for as 'real' as the horizont is linear. Then we do not dare sail out to sea!!! Hehehe ;-), as there must be an 'edge' (yet another unverified 'idea') on this 'big pancake flat earth', that we then fear falling down from. Same, Same withThe Fermentation of Sensuality: We observe: 'sensing is (sometimes) followed by pleasant feeling' Then we assume, project, construct two radically 'fermented' non-truths: 1: 'not-sensing is followed by unpleasant feeling' 2: 'sensing cannot be followed by pain' As a result of this: We do not dare go to the state of non-sensing. We keep on searching for pleasure by sensuality. Effect of that is: We have to deal with sensing pain too !!! We never reach the non-sensing state, which is the only one where pain cannot ever be sensed. Same, Same with The Fermentation of Becoming: We observe: 'becoming is nice, as then 'I' exist and can sense pleasure' Then we assume, project, construct two radically 'fermented' non-truths: 1: 'not-re-becoming is painfull as then 'I' do not exist' 2: 'not-re-becoming is painfull as then 'I' cannot have joy' As a result of this: We do not dare go to the state of non-becoming. We keep on becoming something else, moment by moment, life after life, endlessly caught up in sea of samsara, craving to be first this and then that. Effect of that is: We have to deal with becoming to bad states too ! We never reach non-becoming state which is the only one where 'bad-state' cannot ever be reached again. The ultimatively SAFE state. Same, same with The Fermentation of Ignorance, We observe: 'Not-knowing is acceptable as it is not felt as painful' Then we assume, project, construct two radically 'fermented' non-truths: 1: 'No pain follows Not-knowing, it is neutral' 2. 'From Knowing no ease, no joy follows, so no need to care' As a result of this: We keep on making mistakes, whose result is inevitable painfull and lead to regret. We do not seek up, search for real knowledge and therefore never reach a state where we do not make mistakes at all, assured, ascertained. Effect of that is: Blinded, not seeing, not knowing how it really is as in a dark room, and how it works, the laws, the mechanics behind reality, we keep on falling as over our own feet, stumbling at any hindrance. These are the fermentations. Caused by and themselves causing Ignorance. : - ] samahita All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30287 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James (& Htoo), > > I hope your laptop gets fixed quickly - I get withdrawal symptoms when > you're away and no one's giving me a hard time ;-) HA! You think you have withdrawal symptoms! ;-)) The Internet is like my air supply!! ;-)) I am at a computer at the school, before the weekend, so I will make this brief (and may elaborate further later). > .... > -- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Sarah: I mean, only the right conditions will bring the right > > results. Is this `trying' or `pushing' one of them? If so which? > > Doesn't is suggest an `atta'? > > > > James: Sarah, could you please explain in detail, in your own words, > > why `trying', or `striving', or `effort' suggests an `atta', a self? > > Just as `smoke' would suggest a `fire', and one can be linked to the > > other, please explain why `trying' would suggest a self and how they > > are linked. I would like your own words as explanation since this is > > obviously an idea that you have. > ..... > I think it depends on the context and meaning of the writer. This is why > I've been discussing in some detail with Htoo as I'd like to understand > his meaning when he uses these terms. I asked about your meaning, no Htoo's or anyone else's. Why do you care about anyone else's meaning? You should just concern yourself with yourself. > > To give a few examples: > > 1. We may talk in everyday language about striving to keep the house > clean, trying to correct the students' homework or making an effort to do > more exercise. > > I say these things all the time and they're perfectly good and > acceptable examples of conventional language. When we use them, they are > clearly not being made as statements of any special deep truths or methods > of mental development. > > 2. We may talk about striving to be aware of the body or trying to focus > on walking or sensations or meditation. > > We start to enter what I might call a `fudged picture' area. What you, > Htoo and I might mean by any of these expressions could be quite different > and quite significant with regard to any understanding of the Buddha's > teachings. Okay, now I think I more understand where you are coming from. Frankly, this is the wrong way of looking at things. You are putting the cart before the horse and expect people to approach the dhamma when they are already enlightened. Why do you think the Buddha said that enlightenment takes such a long time? Because the sense of self can't be eliminated overnight. It goes away little by little. If you wait for it to completely go away before you start to practice, you will never start to practice. Which is what I see that you do. You don't practice. You hope to gain enlightenment, when you aren't looking. Like you will wake up one day and have a surprise party, "Happy Enlightenment!!" ;-)) > > As I see it, if there is any suggestion of `selection' or any nama or rupa > other than what has arisen aleady as being the object of understanding, > then it is an indication of desire. In addition, it would indicate a lack > of appreciation of the conditioned nature of present dhammas as being > anatta. Furthermore, if there is any idea that `body' or `walking', for > example, can be objects of satipatthana, this would be wrong. Htoo and I > agree on this. > > 3. We may talk about making an effort or striving to be aware of feelings > or anger or rupas or mental factors. > > In this case, there is no argument about the objects of satipatthana, but > again an idea of someone making an effort or striving or being able to > select objects can creep in. Well, then let the sense of self creep in. The sense of self isn't going to be gone until full enlightenment. Gosh, I would hate to be one of your students! You wouldn't have them attempt to read until they were able to recite Shakespeare or something! ;-)) > ..... > > Let me ask you this Q: > > If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some chores/be > aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental factors > in meditation practice, who or what is `trying', `striving' or making this > `effort'? I am, James Mitchell. That personality of 'James' won't be gone until enlightenment. Till then, "I" keep on trucking on!! ;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Metta, James 30288 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] smile of the Buddha Dear Nina (& Ken O), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken Ong, > In the Co to the Middle Length Sayings, sutta 81, on Ghatikara we read > that > Buddhas smile with five kinds of citta: one ahetuka and four sahetuka > kiriyacittas acoompanied by somanassa: two of these are with panna and > two > without. ..... I was glad to read this detail - I'd looked in a number of Abh.texts for it, but couldn't find it. Narada gives the following info in a note in his transl of A.S. which must be wrong (no textual support). I think it's understandable - it's easy to assume all such cittas of the Buddha are accompanied by panna. Narada: >Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppada. Samma Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, accompanied by wisdom and pleasure.< Many thanks Ken O for this thread. As you always say, the notes are not the text;-) Metta, Sarah ===== >But as you quoted in Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma > chapter > six number 34, these are preceded by the Buddha's omniscience. Also > arahats > and Buddhas have mahakiriyacittas without panna. I wrote before on the > Buddha's omniscience (see archives). The processes of cittas of a Buddha > also run according to citta nyama, a fixed order. Whatever subject a > Buddha > directs his attention to he can know with omniscience whenever he > wishes. > But he can know only one object at a time, citta nyama. There are also > moments of citta unaccompanied by wisdom. This does not contradict his > capacity of omniscience. > Nina 30289 From: Philip Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:45am Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello all. An afterthought and a question. Thanks to Sarah's reminding me that I had stated an intention to read more about Paramis- an intention I had forgotten about- I have started reading it and I sense it's going to add a lot of focus and energy to my beginner's practice. And it's not a stretch for me to imagine that by having a more focussed and energetic practice, I will bring a lot more wholesome energy out into the world and into the classroom where I teach. So a single gesture by Sarah (and link from Robert) will end up having something of what I call a Metta ripple effect here in Japan, no matter how piddly it turns out to be due to my lack of diligence. There are countless examples of this sort of thing in all our lives, of course. The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand candles, or words to that effect. My question for you is if there is a Dhamma term for the way wholesome citta(?) proliferate in the world as a result of our kind gestures? I seem to be very interested in this kind of thing but don't have enough knowledge of the Dhamma to know if I am just cooking up my own pretty notions or not. Thanks. With Metta Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Robert > > Thanks! > > Philip > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hi Philip, > > You can find it here: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm > > > > I recommend this link too - here you will another link to 'Useful > > Posts' > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > Robert > > > > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > > wrote: > > > > > > >> p.s How did you get on with your reading on Paramis > > (Perfections)? > > > > ====== > > > 30290 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory - Sabhava Michael Thanks for setting out your views in some detail. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, M: Sorry to say this, but in my view this is a very poor description. If you think of any object that can impact the visual door it is very likely that different people will perceive that object differently. Imagine a number of people looking at a tree. Some will notice the trunk, others the leaves, while others will notice the tiny ants climbing up the trunk, and so forth. And that initial contact will trigger sensations, perception and mental proliferations, according to the Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18). Now in all those different contacts where is the 'individual essence of that datum'? J: There appears to be a fundamental difference between us here on the question of conventional objects vs. dhammas. To my understanding, every dhamma has a characteristic that can be known by awareness/developed understanding (regardless of whether you think 'sabhava' is an appropriate term for that characteristic). Thus the characteristic of visible datum may appear at *any* moment of eye consciousness regardless of the nature of the 'object' being seen (tree, body, person or whatever) or the 'person' seeing. As I see it, the whole point dhammas being classified as khandhas, sense bases and elements is to highlight that each kind of dhamma has the same distinctive characteristic whenever it is experienced, whether now or in the past or in the future. Dhammas are wholly 'impersonal'. So regarding your comment above, the fact that people perceive the 'same' conventional object differently is really beside the point. And as regards proliferations, people proliferate differently because of different accumulated tendencies. M: Now, from the philosophical perspective, a view that there is an individual essence, as I mentioned in my previous post, brings in a metaphysical essentialist standpoint, i.e. "It has also been argued that the term sabhava is used to characterize the own nature of the dhammas or its own unique characteristic. But this poses a problem because it is akin to a metaphysical theory of identity and difference, where sabhava is the unique characteristic not shared with anything else and the universal characteristics (ti-lakkhana) being identified with the common or the shared." In my view the Buddha did not support such a view. J: The view you refer to as a 'metaphysical essentialist stand[point' (whatever that means!) is a view that you choose to impute, based on certain assumptions you make about the term 'sabhava'. So far you have not been able to point to any evidence of the *manifestation* of that view in the writings in question (over and above the mere use of the term you object to). If the ancient commentators were indeed guilty of the sin of essentialism or whatever, you would surely expect to find it popping up in their writings. If the criticism has merit it should be apparent on a reading of the texts -- where are the examples from their writings? M: If Sarah feels encouraged to buy the Mulamadyamakakarika by Nagarjuna, I suggest that you read the Chapter V - Exposition of Elements, to see how he argues against the possibility of any intrinsic characteristic in the dhammas. J: Well I might do, but to be frank, while I am happy to read any analysis of passages from the texts, I have reservations about the value of argument based on the kinds of consideration you have mentioned so far in your comments on this subject. But thanks for the concern anyway;-)) Jon 30291 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Michael --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, ... > The reference to 'later' is important. It is always good to stress > that paramatha is a late term in the Theravada teachings. And that > brings another aspect to this analysis, if paramatha was so crucial > why didn't the Buddha refer to the khandhas or dhammas as > paramatha? Why would he have omitted something that is so crucial > according to later commentators? The commentaries expand upon the words of the Buddha himself, and explain in detail what has been stated in brief. Obviously, this will involve the introduction of terms not used by the Buddha himself. ... > I see it very differently. The reason why the Buddha expounded at > length on the five aggregates is because they are the aggregates of > clinging. And clinging is a major obstacle in liberation. The > important intellectual understanding is about the clinging nature > of the aggregates and not their supposed 'ultimate nature'. I don't > see the distinction between the two levels of truth the same way > you describe. I don't see much distinction between a being and the > khandhas, both are conditioned and compounded phenomena with no > true existence but only conditioned existence. Since they are not > true existents both can be properly viewed as a concept. But I > would not say that they only exist in the mind as a concept. There > is an actual phenomena occurring which gives support to a > correspondent mental phenomena. There is significance in the term 'dhammas' and its connotation of 'realities'. The clinging aspect of the five aggregates is important, but we should not forget that the five aggregates were only 1 of the various ways in which dhammas are classified in the teachings. We find in the suttas and Abhidhamma: dhammas as five aggregates/five aggregates of clinging dhammas as sense bases dhammas as elements dhammas as nama and rupa dhammas as citta, cetasika and rupa [and nibbana] dhammas as conditioned dhammas So the clinging aspect of the aggregates is by no means the whole story. For example, as you yourself have mentioned, the conditioned nature of dhammas is also of great significance. Clinging is a major fact of life, but not necessarily an obstacle to liberation; the main culprits there are ignorance and wrong view. The difference between (the idea of) 'a being' and dhammas is crucial to an understanding of the teachings, in my view. Jon 30292 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > No problem. Thank you for sharing your view. I would ask this: > How does what is being said in the discourses support your view? Well, where would you like me to start? ;-)) First, just to clarify the context of my post, what I said there is not so much my own view as my understanding of what is being said in the texts, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries. I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries in necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses. What was said in the suttas was addressed to persons who were on the whole of highly developed understanding, many of them ripe for immediate or imminent enlightenment (in other words, of much greater understanding than ourselves), so much of it goes over our heads, even though the language seems familiar. Without the help of the Abhidhamma and commentaries we may misconstrue the suttas. I am assuming that, while there are aspects of what I said that you consider not to be supported by the discourses, this does not apply to everything in my post. I imagine there is no disagreement over the statement that coming to know the 3 characteristics leads to the lessening of wrong view. It might be best if you indicated which particular statement(s) or comment(s) you are most concerned about, and I will attempt to provide some reference from the suttas. Happy to discuss further. Jon 30293 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Victor, > I know you can reason and conclude that "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means > nothing is self. With the conclusion "nothing is self", you can > again reason and reach the conclusion "there is no self." Consider these passages from Maha-punnama Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn109.html Now at that moment this line of thinking appeared in the awareness of a certain monk: "So -- form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?" Then the Blessed One, realizing with his awareness the line of thinking in that monk's awareness, addressed the monks: "It's possible that a senseless person -- immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving -- might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in this way: 'So -- form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' Question: Why did the Teacher say that this monk was 'senseless'? What is so SENSELESS about of this monk? Regards, Swee Boon 30294 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha In a message dated 2/19/04 8:06:59 AM Central Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: Clinging is a major fact of life, but not necessarily an obstacle to liberation; the main culprits there are ignorance and wrong view. all Wow. This statement seems to do away with the Cycle of Dependent Origination as well as many, many other formulations of the description of suffering as taught by the Buddha. jack 30295 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha In a message dated 2/19/04 8:25:07 AM Central Standard Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: Clinging is a major fact of life, but not necessarily an obstacle to liberation; the main culprits there are ignorance and wrong view. all Wow. This statement seems to do away with the Cycle of Dependent Origination as well as many, many other formulations of the description of suffering as taught by the Buddha. jack I retract my statement above. I don't think it will lead to anything productive. Some of the things said on this list really surprise me. Maybe that's a good thing. Or, maybe I should pass on by. jack 30296 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Howard, Every phenomenon is not self. Every phenomenon is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." I am saying that the way you engage in your discursive reasoning leads you further away from seeing every phenomenon as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." It occurs to me that you try to justify the idea "there is no self" from the statement "sabbe dhamma anatta" and start with reasoning that all phenomena are not self is logically equivalent to no phenomenon is self. I think you have a strong logico-analytical ability and a discursive tendency and this ability and tendency have served you well in learning and doing mathematics. Nevertheless, this tendency in discursive reasoning has led you reach a conclusion that deviates from the teaching. The deviation in understanding might not be obvious at the beginning and is justified with "hard logic," but a few steps down with that small deviation, aided with discursive reasoning, you reach a conclusion that misrepresents what the Buddha taught. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 2/19/04 1:26:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > As I understand it, "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means all phenomena > > (dhamma) are not self. In other words, every phenomenon(dhamma) is > > to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is > > not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > > > I know you can reason and conclude that "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means > > nothing is self. With the conclusion "nothing is self", you can > > again reason and reach the conclusion "there is no self." > > Nevertheless, with that kind of discursive reasoning, the original > > meaning of what the Buddha said is further distorted and > > misrepresented. At the end, you adopt the view "there is no self", > > a misrepresentation of what the Buddha actually taught, and that > > view blocks you from seeing every phenomenon as it actually is with > > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > > not my self." > > > > It is not easy for one to abandon a speculative view that he or she > > holds onto. > > > > Metta, > > > ============================ > On the basis of language meaning, or any other basis, I would like to > know how you distinguish "All phenomena are not self" from "No phenomena are > self". These are normally logically eqivalent paraphrases, just as "All cows > are not reptiles" means the same as "No cows are reptiles". > As far as formal logic is concerned, using 'A' for the universal > quantifier and 'E' for the existential quantifier, the sentence "All phenomena are > not self" is of the form > (A x) ~ Self(x), and the sentence "No phenomena are self" is of the form > ~ (E x) Self(x). And these are logically equivalent. > What do you understand "All phenomena are not self" to mean? Do you > presume the sense of "all" is restricted in some sense, or do you attribute some > special meaning to it that is not obvious? What about the statement that says > "All sankhara are impermanent"? Using ordinary logic, this is equivalent to > "No sankhara is permanent". Do you think it is possible that all sankhara are > impermanent, and yet some sankhara is permanent? If not, why not? In the same > way, as soon as one knows that all phenomena are not self, one also knows that > no phenomenon is self. It's exactly the same. > > With metta, > Howard 30297 From: Andy Wilson Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Sarah: ...is useful at this point without being too concerned for now about 'transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil'. Andy: When I read this I laughed out loud at my expression 'transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil' because it sounds so pompous :) I think that by 'western soil' I really only meant 'my mind', which, of course, is full of views and asssumptions i took from the culture i was born into. i'm embarrased to have used such a cliche ;) Sarah: Still, in between the anger, there must be moments of skilful abstention from expression and perhaps even some kindness and consideration too. Andy: I really hope I haven't given any other impression. Painful and angry feelings have very much been mixed in with the feelings of love and care I have for my (ex-)partner. The problem has been to control all those feelings so that they aren't overwhelming, which is like taming a bag of fleas. In reality so-called 'opposite' feelings mingle and give rise to one another. Sometimes the feeling of anger is there *because* of feelings of love: ie. I'm angry because my love is no longer reciprocated, and my partner's love is now for someone else. In a perfect world I'd feel love without risking rejection, sadness, etc. The problem is that the feelings of love I do have aren't based in equanimity but are bound up instead with my clinging to self, where i *identify* with the feeling, so that if it isn't reciprocated my existence itself seems threatened. If I identify with my self then any threat to it is a threat to my existence. This is frightening to the extent that I cling to my 'self' as being my existence (what i 'really am'). I can accept the idea of anatta conceptually but still be overwhelmed with panic when i feel my 'identity' threatened. Sarah: Sometimes, aspects of the teachings which seem senseless, irrelevant or culture-bound now take on greater relevance at another time. Just put them aside without rejection for now. The same applies to any discussions here. .... Andy: This practical, piecemeal attitude sounds attractive. I'm constantly amazed at my ability to leap into new ideas, draw conclusions and pass judgement, sorting them into 'good' and 'bad' ideas, long before i've any real grasp of what they mean. i do the same with people too :) That reminds me of something that occured to me of late: the way we construct our sense of others based on our own prejudice and obsessions, and how we impose this sense on them, forcing them to fit our projected sense of our own self. I mean, we not only construct our own identity mistakenly but do the same for others too. No matter how close we are to them or for how long we've known them this needs constant attention because we are always being pulled that way, like a planet pulled in toward its star. As well as trying to control hurtful feelings about the end of the relationship (or rather, to stop them controlling me) I think I need to address this question, which has less to do with how I feel about myself than how I see others. I'd like to learn how to let others be without forcing them into my idea of what and who they are (and I tend to be just this sort of controlling person). My regret is that I've lived with someone I love for seven years now and didn't know how to let them be happy on their own terms, so that I could support them in this rather than moulding them to my own understanding. I feel that despite my love for that person I let them down due to ignorance, inexperience and clinging. I find myself wishing hard that I could have made them happier: not to stop them from leaving now but really so that I could have given them more happiness in the time we did have together. It strikes me that to love someone and yet treat them this way is the definition of 'unskilled'. Sarah: I think that even the 'radical reworkers' can be grateful for the long and strong tradition of 'as is' bhikkhus who have preserved the original teachings for us to read, consider and form our own judgments about. Andy: This seems to me to be an excellent point - without tradition there'd be nothing to transmute. I am learning to love this 'artful', practical streak in Buddhism. I read something in the AS this morning that made me laugh out loud for similar reasons; "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) of course! you need ears in order to hear the dhamma! i don't know why that seems funny, but it's like someone saying something very profane and down-to-earth in church. on that slightly brighter note than my usual... metta -- [][][] Andy Wilson | Mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253 [][] Managing Director | Tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060 [] [] LShift Ltd | Web: http://www.lshift.net 30298 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack Now its Ken O turn ;-). When you say the mind can be still - I always like to ask pple this question (I think Victor always prefer not to answer my question so I hope you are the first person who can do it ;-)), are you saying that you can still thoughts that is Anatta. When we talk about concentration, are we talking about stilling thoughts or are we talking about one-pointedness. Do you know what is stilling of thoughts in the first place ;-). When pple talk about jhanas, they always say concentration and mindfulness, then the question is there wisdom involved? So do you think jhanas is the key to enlightment or wisdom is the key to enlightement. What do you think, can ignorance be eradicated by jhanas or ignorance eradicated by wisdom? Ken O 30299 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:26am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Sarah (and Ken H), Ok, so the discourse Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html and the commentary you quoted do not support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa. How does the discourse Majjhima Nikaya 10 Satipatthana Sutta Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and (Ken H), > > > > I read the commentary you quoted. But how does the commentary that > > you quoted support the claim that the first sign of right > > understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as > > rupa? > .... > The commentary showed that the sutta (you selected) is describing > supramundane wisdom and not the first signs of right understanding. > Sometimes we have to look at various suttas and other texts for more > details as I indicated;-) This is why Ken H is trying to have you look at > the Satipatthana sutta for example. > > Metta, > > Sarah 30300 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Jon, Thank you for sharing your belief about abhidhamma and commentaries. The question I asked does not concern your belief about them. Rather, the questions I would ask are: Could you find a discourse that support your view (or point, if you prefer) in your last message to me? If you could, what is the discourse and how does it support your point? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > No problem. Thank you for sharing your view. I would ask this: > > How does what is being said in the discourses support your view? > > Well, where would you like me to start? ;-)) > > First, just to clarify the context of my post, what I said there is > not so much my own view as my understanding of what is being said in > the texts, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries. > > I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries in > necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses. What was > said in the suttas was addressed to persons who were on the whole of > highly developed understanding, many of them ripe for immediate or > imminent enlightenment (in other words, of much greater understanding > than ourselves), so much of it goes over our heads, even though the > language seems familiar. Without the help of the Abhidhamma and > commentaries we may misconstrue the suttas. > > I am assuming that, while there are aspects of what I said that you > consider not to be supported by the discourses, this does not apply > to everything in my post. I imagine there is no disagreement over > the statement that coming to know the 3 characteristics leads to the > lessening of wrong view. It might be best if you indicated which > particular statement(s) or comment(s) you are most concerned about, > and I will attempt to provide some reference from the suttas. > > Happy to discuss further. > > Jon 30301 From: John Hoban Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:55am Subject: intelligence to the universe How can there be karma if there is no one to judge the state of the beings heart. Which leads to the idea of one being ones own maker of karma? If I think I am doing good - good comes back? Bad, bad? Or sliding out of my solopsis, if others think I'm doing good, good comes back (Please!? fools abound, including myself) And if I don't know my own heart, karma is as lost as I am. No? John 30302 From: John Hoban Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] definately faithless Thanks Sarah, Your thoughts on the matter make sense and if it wern't for people like Raymond Moody and Elisabeth Kubler Ross maybe I'd stop thinking there might be knowing this side of 'discorporation' as Robert Heinlein called it in one of his books. I suspect Ray Moody is into the NDE stuff for the money, but who knows. Ross has been working with dying people for years and has a Mother Therasa sort of image. I don't think she's in it just for $$$ , talking about contact with dead I mean, but of course, that doesn't mean she isn't imagining what she thinks she sees either. Even experience can be imagined, can't it? That's part of the problem I think. Anybodies testimony can be attributed to self-delusion, including one's own. At this point I have to laugh. I think that very realization is my only sanity. Your words make sense. I have these periodic outbursts of sanctimonious B.S. I must point out that your advantage is that you do believe, as you stated, that if one does good deeds, etc, they will have good reward/karma/feedback/whatever. That's an act of faith and you know me. Also, if death is the end of a personal entity, then how can that entity feel good and get the positive feedback Also this make me think that good deeds should not be done for the goal of reward. That's kinda selfish, no? Hey! Maybe that's why we're not 'permited' to know about what happens when we die. So that we do good stuff out of unselfish altruism! Saw right through the bugger! "But my cynic soon returns and the lifeboat burns, my spirit just never learns" - from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway CD, Genesis John P.S. I always have trouble finding the right word for 'dead', deceased, passed on, etc. They all imply something and I know nothing. What's Metta mean? > Metta & Peace, > > Sarah > ====== > > > 30303 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/19/04 9:27:47 AM Central Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: When you say the mind can be still - I always like to ask pple this question (I think Victor always prefer not to answer my question so I hope you are the first person who can do it ;-)), are you saying that you can still thoughts that is Anatta. When we talk about concentration, are we talking about stilling thoughts or are we talking about one-pointedness. Do you know what is stilling of thoughts in the first place ;-). Ken O, I'll try to answer your questions. When I try to do vipassana meditation, I don't still thoughts. My mind does calm down. Thoughts as well as other sensations arise and pass away without my having to manage or control them. Thinking, hearing, body sensing occur but without involvement of an "I". I can get up from sitting meditation to do walking meditation and no "self" is involved. Concentration is certainly involved in my vipassana meditation. We could discuss access concentration, etc., but I don't think that adds anything to our conversation. I have never tried to reach the jhana steps and don't experientially know much about them. When I try to do pure samadhi meditation as I did this morning, I stay on the surface of my breath and become one-pointed at times especially when the breath turns into a nimitta. Thinking a string of thoughts, hearing, and body sensing fall away and there is just the nimitta thought in my mind. So, there is one-pointedness and a stilling of thoughts in that sense. When pple talk about jhanas, they always say concentration and mindfulness, then the question is there wisdom involved? So do you think jhanas is the key to enlightment or wisdom is the key to enlightement. What do you think, can ignorance be eradicated by jhanas or ignorance eradicated by wisdom? I think wisdom is the key to enlightenment. Ignorance, in my opinion, can only be temporally eradicated by jhanas. Ignorance can be eradicated by wisdom. While you might not agree with my answers, did I answer all your questions? jack 30304 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] intelligence to the universe In a message dated 2/19/04 10:13:15 AM Central Standard Time, hoban-ebay0694@m... writes: How can there be karma if there is no one to judge the state of the beings heart. Does gravity need someone to attract two objects together? Karma is a natural law of my universe just as gravity is. No judging, no external being, just gravity, just karma. jack 30305 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] intelligence to the universe In a message dated 2/19/04 10:43:06 AM Central Standard Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: How can there be karma if there is no one to judge the state of the beings heart. Does gravity need someone to attract two objects together? Karma is a natural law of my universe just as gravity is. No judging, no external being, just gravity, just karma. jack Oops, sorry but I didn't put "all" or "John" in front of my response above. I didn't mean to break the list's rules. So, therefore my karma is clean. jack 30306 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 2/19/04 2:51:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >========================= > >I approve of studying the Dhamma, and I approve of applying it. > Both of these require volition and effort. > ========================= > > Sure, both these cetasikas will be there in all javana cittas. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure - for *everybody* - saint and sinner, caregiver and killer. And these could be there weakly or strongly. But specific conditions are required for specific results, and it is by volition that a "person" effects an outcome, and only with that. --------------------------------------------- > However, is picking up the Tipitaka to read, or listening to dhamma, > or discussions, be instances of 'pariyatti'? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Just picking it up to read? Of course not. That would be a mere beginning. It must be read, studied, contemplated - all requiring volition. But, then, it also must be applied! --------------------------------------------- Would telling > > oneself 'to do this' or 'not do that' be 'patipatti'? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh .. no? ;-) Telling oneself to do this or that is just telling oneself. DOING this or that is action, and it requires volition - impulse that leads to action. I can *tell* myself to stand up, and nothing will happen. But let a snake approach me and I will JUMP up and move away in an instant. The fear and desire lead to powerful volition that bears fruit. Vitakka is not the same as cetana. ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Sukin. > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30307 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Howard, op 18-02-2004 22:18 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ========================== > If you give me instances, I will answer for each. As far as earth, air, fire, > and water are concerned, I think of these as solidity/hardness, > motion/movement, (varying degrees of) warmth/cold, and cohesion/fluidity, all > direct elements of experience, and not concepts. Often, though, our minds > substitute the concepts of these rupas for the rupic phenomena themselves, and > when that happens we are not observing what we *think* we are observing. The > mind is a great joker - a magician with a sense of humor! ;-) N: The mind a magician, and so it is. We think of concepts about rupas, and so it is. As said before, each time I go to Thailand, I realize more what I do not know yet, such as taking thinking for awareness. Yes, we think of dhammas such as rupa, and then the object of thinking is a concept of it. I exchanged views with my Thai friends about this, it was very helpful. But we should not despair. Thinking in the right way can be done with a level of sati and understanding, and this is the groundwork for the arising of direct awareness. Being in Thailand gives me always more confidence in the teachings. The mind as magician: I quoted this from the Vis.:,The ³Visuddhimagga² (XI, 98) states that the four Great Elements are like the great creatures of a magician who ³turns water that is not crystal into crystal, and turns a clod that is not gold into gold....² We are attached to crystal and gold, we are deceived by the outward appearance of things. There is no crystal or gold in the ultimate sense, only rúpas which arise and then fall away. > The citta itself is tricked, it is obsessed by the perversions. Dhaatu, element: it is devoid of self. We were at Kunying Nopparath's house and spent the greater part of the day on the sutta The Many Kinds of Elements, M. no 115. (I have now the B.B. translation, it was the only book of him available at the Mahamakut Bookshop in Bgk). The Buddha explained to Ananda about the elements in different ways. One of them: eighteen elements; . And so on for all the doorways. There could not be seeing without eyesense and visible object, these are indispensable condiitons for seeing. Element: this word, where it refers to conditioned elements, implies the ephemeral nature. It is there because of conditions, and then it is not there anymore. Then it is replaced, and the new one can never be the same. We cannot see eyesense, cannot touch it, it is already gone. Even the doctor who operates, cannot pinpoint where it is. But as you see in the Sutta, eyesense is real, it is an element. Howard: Where is > the eyesense you are talking about? How and where is it observed - how is it to be known? Certainly there is the *capacity* to see, but such capacity is > nothing more than a bunch of conditions being in effect - some positive, some > negative. There are many paramatthic conditions that underlie what we call the > "the eyes working properly," a conventional expression. I will accept a > paramatthic "eyesense" when someone can say something specific about it, and, > in > particular, describe how and where it can be looked into. N: There is the composite eye and the eyesense itself. The composite eye and actually the rupas of the whole body form up conditions for the eyesense to perform its function. Positive and negative? I do not know what you mean here. Now to be specific: see above: it is an element, as explained in the sutta. There are many suttas on elements. Do you see the Abhidhammic fragrance in the sutta? Very gradually you may recognize this and come to see that the teaching in the Abhidhamma is not different from the sutta. Elements is one of my favorite subjects: so straightforward, simple and true (but here, I should be at Icaro's address! Icaro and I must have similar experiences with Abhidhamma in the past). We read in the "Dispeller of Delusion", Ch 3, § 266 (p. 67): Maybe it becomes clearer now that the Buddha did not refer to conventional realities when he spoke to Rahula about Elements? I can write a whole chapter about this subject, incorporating it in my Thailand Impressions. I have to hurry to attend to Larry's thread. Nina. 30308 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Andrew and Ken H, op 19-02-2004 00:48 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Hi Ken H It's your > manner of getting the message across that I was addressing. Whilst > this may seem pretty trivial, it is actually a huge issue on DSG - > witness the continuing debates about why Buddha said "not self" > instead of "no self". N: When I write: people do not exist, or, there are no people, Lodewijk warns me, telling me to add: in the ultimate sense. He says, people may stumble over this. It infuriates him when I say, I have no husband ;-)) B.B. once suggested: non-self. We can also use just the word anattaa. Nina. 30309 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:00am Subject: Visuddhimagga, note 27, no 1. bodily intimation. Bodily Intimation: Note 27, no 1. 'It is the mode and the alteration of what? Of consciousness-originated primary elements that have the air-element in excess of capability. N: There is a certain unique change in the great Elements and the element of wind or motion (air) plays its specific part. By means of gestures or bodily movement certain intentions are displayed. Text: What is that capability? It is the state of being consciousness-born and the state of being derived matter. N: all rupas that are not the four Great Elements are derived rupas, and these depend on the four great Elements. Bodily intimation is originated by citta, not by kamma, temperature or nutrition. Text: Or alternatively, it can be taken as the mode of alteration of the air element. If that is so, then intimation is illogical as derived matter, for there is no derived matter with a single primary as its support, since "matter derived from the four great primaries" (M.i,53) is said. That is not wrong. Alteration of one of the four is that of all four, as with wealth shared among four. And excess of air element in a material group (kalaapa) does not contradict the words "of the air element"; and excess is in capability, not in quantity, otherwise their inseparability would be illogical. N: The four great Elements and also four other rupas (colour, odour, flavour and nutrition) form an octad, they are inseparable, always arising together. The excess of the element of wind or motion does not mean: there is more of it in that group, but is means: it plays its specific part in being capable of causing gestures etc. expressing a meaning. Text: According to some it is that of the air element only. In their opinion the state of derived matter is inapplicable (durupapaada) to intimation, since the alteration of one is not that of all. N: Some teachers have a different opinion. Text: But this [air element] is apprehended by mind-door impulsion that is next to the non-intimating [apprehension] that is next to the apprehension of the appearance of motion in the movement of the hands, and so on. N: When someone is intimating a meaning to someone else there are different moments of perceiving different objects. There is not immediately the noticing of the meaning displayed. Text: There is a certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion. And the apprehension of the former is next to the apprehension of the latter. How is that to be known? By the apprehension of intention. N: Apprehension is the translation of gaha.na: grasping, taking up, apprehending. Text: For no apprehension of intention such as "He is getting this done, it seems" is met with in the case of trees' movements, etc., which are devoid of intention. N: Trees have no citta, no intention. Thus, bodily intimation is not merely motion, even trees move. But they have no intention to display a meaning. Text: But it is met with in the case of hand movements and so on. Therefore there is a certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of known as the "intimator of the intention". Also it is known by inference that the apprehension of the alteration is next to the apprehension of the appearance thus: .... N: Processes of citta take their course and succeed one another very quickly. Seeing colour is one moment, afterwards there is remembrance of different moments of seeing which give the impression of movement of the hands, and after that the meaning displayed is known. If we take into consideration that six javana cittas cause the strengthening and supporting of the body but cannot move it, and that only the seventh sets up mobility which displays an intention, moving forward or backward, bending and extending the limbs, we can understand that this is known by inference. We cannot pinpoint exactly the seventh javanacitta that originates bodily intimation. Countless processes succeed one another, where all this occurs. The ³Expositor²(I, p. 110) suggests . We can imagine that it takes countless processes of citta to intimate a meaning and for the person or animal to understand the meaning. Text:The intimator intimates the meaning to be intimated only when it is apprehended as a cause, not merely as present. For they say accordingly: Sounds that have entered no objective field do not awaken any kind of meaning; and also beings merely recognized as such communicate no meanings either. N: The intimator should make known a meaning, the citta of the intimator is the cause of bodily intimation. This implies that bodily intimation does not occur to someone else merely when he sees the outward appearance of a person who is standing or moving without intention to display a meaning. ****** P.S. I need time for the next one, did not even look at the Pali. I shall deal with the seven yokes, they are in the Expositor. Nina. 30310 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear James and Sarah, When we meet a person, we do not have a particular thought related to that person.But soon after we are inroduced to that person there the idea of 'self' has already been introduced along with conventional introduction. Just thinking. Htoo Naing 30311 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Swee Boon, As I see it, the Buddha characterized the person who came with this line of thinking "So -- form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?" as senseless, immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving, because this person is senseless, immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving in coming up with such line of thinking. Some might think they could outsmart the Buddha's message in this way: "So -- form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not- self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then no form, feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness is self. Is there any self?" Thank you for bringing up this discourse and your questions. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > I know you can reason and conclude that "Sabbe dhamma anatta" means > > nothing is self. With the conclusion "nothing is self", you can > > again reason and reach the conclusion "there is no self." > > Consider these passages from Maha-punnama Sutta. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn109.html > > Now at that moment this line of thinking appeared in the awareness of > a certain monk: "So -- form is not-self, feeling is not-self, > perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is > not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what > is not-self?" > > Then the Blessed One, realizing with his awareness the line of > thinking in that monk's awareness, addressed the monks: "It's possible > that a senseless person -- immersed in ignorance, overcome with > craving -- might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in > this way: 'So -- form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is > not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then > what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' > > > Question: Why did the Teacher say that this monk was 'senseless'? > What is so SENSELESS about of this monk? > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30312 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 0:54pm Subject: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 11 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When the mind is well concentrated there are noticably free of hindrances including ignorance. At such a state, a well concentrated mind or Samahitacittas arise. But at another time, mind may be distracted and then ( Asamahitacitta ) a mind without concentration arises. Through out meditation, there have happened many many mind states. At a time, a mind state is associated with greediness and at another time it is not. Sometimes a displeasing mind arises and sometime a mind state without hatred arises. When in a state of worry, different thoughts arise in succession without particular direction and it sounds like ash spreading away when a heap of ash is thrown by a stone. In such a state ignorance or delusion leads the mind. When not in such a state then a mind state without delusion or ignorance arise. Depending on circumstances and conditions, sometimes a slothful mind ( Samkhittacitta ) arises and at another time a distracted mind ( Vikkhittacitta ) arises. When a developed mind state ( Mahaggattacitta ) arises, it works well but when not ( Amahaggattacitta ) an undeveloped mind arises. Meditators will not be well advance at the outset. Before setting in the practice diligently, meditators may be aware of arising of an inferior mind state ( Sauttaracitta ) but this does not last long if mindful. With a long practice, sometimes there arises a superior mind state ( Anuttaracitta ) arises. When well concentrated, Samahitacitta or a concentrated mind arises. If not Asamahitacitta or an unconcentrated mind arises. The practitioner is experiencing mind and mind states. Due to his continuous practising, at a time, defilements are temporarily freed and that mind state is called Vimuttacitta. When with defilements a mind state with defilements ( Avimuttacitta ) arises. May you all be able to see Dhamma as they are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30313 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Jack Your comment is a good one and I'm ignoring your retraction! --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/19/04 8:25:07 AM Central Standard Time, > Jackhat1@a... > writes: > Clinging is a major fact of life, but not necessarily an obstacle > to > liberation; the main culprits there are ignorance and wrong view. > all > > Wow. This statement seems to do away with the Cycle of Dependent > Origination > as well as many, many other formulations of the description of > suffering as taught by the Buddha. My statement was somewhat terse, and should have been explained a little. Actually, you've put your finger on the button here, Jack. Clinging is said to be the factor that keeps us continuting in the round of samsara (this is the first noble truth). However, what breaks that cycle is the development of panna of the kind associated with satipatthana/vipassana (this is the gist of the fourth noble truth). Ignorance and wrong view are the antithesis of that development of panna, as I see it. As the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear, there can be awareness of presently occurring akusala mind-states. This would be an instance of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. > jack > I retract my statement above. I don't think it will lead to > anything > productive. Some of the things said on this list really surprise > me. Maybe that's a good thing. Or, maybe I should pass on by. Hope you'll stick around;-)) I'm sure the benefit will be mutual. Jon 30314 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thank you for sharing your belief about abhidhamma and > commentaries. The question I asked does not concern your belief > about them. Rather, the questions I would ask are: Could you find > a discourse that support your view (or point, if you prefer) in > your > last message to me? If you could, what is the discourse and how > does it support your point? There are a number of points in my message. If you would like to mention the point or points that you find questionable, I'd be happy to provide whatever support I can. Jon 30315 From: torloff87048 Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Howard and Nina, Hope you don't mind me jumping in with a comment here- I think I understand the thread here abouteyesense and have something to add to it... N: > We cannot see eyesense, cannot touch it, it is already gone. Even the doctor > who operates, cannot pinpoint where it is. But as you see in the Sutta, > eyesense is real, it is an element. Howard: Where is > the eyesense you are talking about? How and where is it > observed - how is it to be known? Certainly there is the *capacity* to see, > but such capacity is > > nothing more than a bunch of conditions being in effect - some positive, some > > negative. There are many paramatthic conditions that underlie what we call the > > "the eyes working properly," a conventional expression. I will accept a > > paramatthic "eyesense" when someone can say something specific about it, and, > > in > > particular, describe how and where it can be looked into. Actually, eyesense can be directly known. Otherwise, as Howard points out, on what basis do we call it an ultimate reality? It's not enough that Buddha says it is. There has to be a path by which it can be known as it is. Here is how it can be known and investigated: It is experienced directly as heat in the back of the eye during the act of seeing. This heat is the direct experience of rupa. The connection between this rupa and eye consciousness is directly known at some further level of wisdom, when one's mind is able to directly grasp the relations between the set of conditions present- light, form, eyeconsciousness, and eyesense (as rupa experienced as heat while seeing.) The same is true of the even more difficult to grasp heart-base: It is directly known as heat in the cavity of the heart while citta and cetasika are present. This is the reason the heart-base is said to be the blood in the cavity of the heart. There is a reference for this in the Canon but unfortunately I can't locate it- I think I came across it somewhere in Conditional Relations (which does not have an index in my edition!). With metta, Toby 30316 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Victor (and Ken H), First please tell us what nama is and what rupa is, as you understand them. Otherwise this will end up with a quibble of words like some anatta threads;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I'll be busy over the next couple of days, so I'll get back on a few threads later. ====== --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > How does the discourse > Majjhima Nikaya 10 > Satipatthana Sutta > Frames of Reference > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes > when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa? 30317 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi, Toby (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/19/04 6:21:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > Hi Howard and Nina, > > Hope you don't mind me jumping in with a comment here- I think I > understand the thread here abouteyesense and have something to add to > it... > > N: >We cannot see eyesense, cannot touch it, it is already gone. > Even the doctor > >who operates, cannot pinpoint where it is. But as you see in the > Sutta, > >eyesense is real, it is an element. > Howard: Where is >the eyesense you are talking about? How and where > is it > >observed - how is it to be known? Certainly there is the *capacity* > to see, > >but such capacity is > >>nothing more than a bunch of conditions being in effect - some > positive, some > >>negative. There are many paramatthic conditions that underlie > what we call the > >>"the eyes working properly," a conventional expression. I will > accept a > >>paramatthic "eyesense" when someone can say something specific > about it, and, > >>in > >>particular, describe how and where it can be looked into. > > Actually, eyesense can be directly known. Otherwise, as Howard > points out, on what basis do we call it an ultimate reality? It's > not enough that Buddha says it is. There has to be a path by which > it can be known as it is. Here is how it can be known and > investigated: It is experienced directly as heat in the back of the > eye during the act of seeing. This heat is the direct experience of > rupa. The connection between this rupa and eye consciousness is > directly known at some further level of wisdom, when one's mind is > able to directly grasp the relations between the set of conditions > present- light, form, eyeconsciousness, and eyesense (as rupa > experienced as heat while seeing.) > > The same is true of the even more difficult to grasp heart-base: It > is directly known as heat in the cavity of the heart while citta and > cetasika are present. This is the reason the heart-base is said to > be the blood in the cavity of the heart. There is a reference for > this in the Canon but unfortunately I can't locate it- I think I came > across it somewhere in Conditional Relations (which does not have an > index in my edition!). > > With metta, Toby > ============================ This is interesting. I won't say that I will accept this on faith (a sutta reference *would* be a help), but what you write here certainly does point in the sort of direction I would hope for. Toby, have you experienced this yourself? If yes, would you mind telling me the sort of meditation practice you follow? Goenka sensation-oriented meditation, by any chance? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30318 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Hello Jon, And I say vow, this statement does away with the whole noble eightfold path. what breaks that cycle is the development of panna of the kind associated with satipatthana/vipassana (this is the gist of the fourth noble truth) Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Jack Your comment is a good one and I'm ignoring your retraction! --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/19/04 8:25:07 AM Central Standard Time, > Jackhat1@a... > writes: > Clinging is a major fact of life, but not necessarily an obstacle > to > liberation; the main culprits there are ignorance and wrong view. > all > > Wow. This statement seems to do away with the Cycle of Dependent > Origination > as well as many, many other formulations of the description of > suffering as taught by the Buddha. My statement was somewhat terse, and should have been explained a little. Actually, you've put your finger on the button here, Jack. Clinging is said to be the factor that keeps us continuting in the round of samsara (this is the first noble truth). However, what breaks that cycle is the development of panna of the kind associated with satipatthana/vipassana (this is the gist of the fourth noble truth). Ignorance and wrong view are the antithesis of that development of panna, as I see it. As the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear, there can be awareness of presently occurring akusala mind-states. This would be an instance of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. > jack > I retract my statement above. I don't think it will lead to > anything > productive. Some of the things said on this list really surprise > me. Maybe that's a good thing. Or, maybe I should pass on by. Hope you'll stick around;-)) I'm sure the benefit will be mutual. Jon 30319 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Jon, Whatever point in the message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 that you want to support with discourses are fine. I think what you can do is to go through the statements you made in the message and list all or some of the points in that message and provide some reference to each of them so the discussion is based on how the discourses support or not support your points. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Thank you for sharing your belief about abhidhamma and > > commentaries. The question I asked does not concern your belief > > about them. Rather, the questions I would ask are: Could you find > > a discourse that support your view (or point, if you prefer) in > > your > > last message to me? If you could, what is the discourse and how > > does it support your point? > > There are a number of points in my message. If you would like to > mention the point or points that you find questionable, I'd be happy > to provide whatever support I can. > > Jon 30320 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Sarah (and Ken H), I think the issue at hand is: How does the discourse Majjhima Nikaya 10 Satipatthana Sutta Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa? If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa, what are other discourses that support the claim, and how? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (and Ken H), > > First please tell us what nama is and what rupa is, as you understand > them. Otherwise this will end up with a quibble of words like some anatta > threads;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I'll be busy over the next couple of days, so I'll get back on a few > threads later. > ====== > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > How does the discourse > > Majjhima Nikaya 10 > > Satipatthana Sutta > > Frames of Reference > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > > support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes > > when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa? 30321 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha In a message dated 2/19/04 5:04:27 PM Central Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: Actually, you've put your finger on the button here, Jack. Clinging is said to be the factor that keeps us continuting in the round of samsara (this is the first noble truth). Jon, Actually the Second Noble Truth. However, what breaks that cycle is the development of panna of the kind associated with satipatthana/vipassana (this is the gist of the fourth noble truth). Ignorance and wrong view are the antithesis of that development of panna, as I see it. The Fourth Noble Truth/ 8-Fold Path has 8 paths not one. Looking at it another way, Right Knowledge is only 1/8 of the 8-Fold Path. If one looks at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, ignorance is the cause of suffering. But, one could also say vedana (feelings) are the cause of suffering. Or, one could pick any of the links in the Cycle and say they are a cause of suffering. The Cycle is a cycle, i.e., the last link is connected to the first. Change any link and suffering is eliminated. The usual way to look at it is that the two easiest to change are the links of ignorance and feelings. As the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear, there can be awareness of presently occurring akusala mind-states. This would be an instance of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. > jack > I retract my statement above. I don't think it will lead to > anything > productive. Some of the things said on this list really surprise > me. Maybe that's a good thing. Or, maybe I should pass on by. Hope you'll stick around;-)) I'm sure the benefit will be mutual. Jon Thanks for the kind thoughts. jack 30322 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi, Victor (and Sarah and Ken) - In a message dated 2/19/04 8:11:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Sarah (and Ken H), > > I think the issue at hand is: > > How does the discourse > Majjhima Nikaya 10 > Satipatthana Sutta > Frames of Reference > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > support the claim that the first sign of right understanding comes > when nama is directly known as nama and rupa as rupa? > > If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the > first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known > as nama and rupa as rupa, what are other discourses that support the > claim, and how? > > Metta, > Victor ============================ I agree with you, Victor, that making the distinction between mental and physical, which, BTW, I think pretty much all human beings do quite easily for the most part, is not a suttic teaching of the Buddha's. The commentarial tradition seems to give great importance to it, but I have never seen the Buddha do so. It seems to me that for the most part what the Buddha taught as important were the tilakhana, paticcasamupada, and the four noble truths. Seeing into these with wisdom are what right understanding is all about as far as I'm concerned. Now, if it were said that clearly distinguishing between what is actual experience and what is illusion is a sign of right understanding, I would agree. But that is different from distinguishing nama from rupa, and it is not a first sign of right understanding, but an advanced sign, at least at its summit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30323 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Andrew, Your concerns (about choice of language) remind me of a message from Rob M, in which he apologised for any offence he might have caused the non-meditators. That was significant, I think. We know, only too well, that by extolling the virtues of listening, considering and discussing (Dhamma-study), we inevitably dispute the efficacy of formal practice (that is, we risk offending the meditators). However, as Rob implied, the reverse is also true: whenever a Buddhist extols formal practice, he denigrates study. There is no sitting on the fence: it has to be one way or the other. If anatta is to be taken seriously, then formal practice is not compatible with the Dhamma. If formal practice is to be taken seriously, then a literal understanding of anatta (no self who can practice) is an impediment. Some say that anatta (and other ultimate realities) will be relevant when we reach the final goal, not before. This makes us study-bugs look ridiculous – as if we are putting a cart in front of a horse. (The very thing we accuse the meditators of doing.) Inevitably, in a discussion group like this, toes are going to be trodden on! --------------------- A: > How many times have you encountered people who dismiss Dhamma with a wave of the hand and an incredulous laugh when they are first told that, according to Buddha, they "don't really exist". These people are not dummies, either. I believe you have had exactly this same experience with one of our nation's leading intellectuals? --------------------- Before people think I have been hobnobbing with celebrities, I should explain that, about ten years ago, I wrote to my favourite left-wing social commentator (who has a chat show on public radio). He had previously paid lip service to Buddhism and so I thought he would be amenable to a little more information. One of his favourite conversation topics was, "coping with the fear of dying," and so I summarised the Abhidhamma perspective (along the lines of; "Mere suffering exists; no sufferer is found,"). He wrote back; "I can't see how that would help with fear of toothache, let alone fear of dying!" Such was my brush with fame. :-) -------------------------- < . . . . > A: > Well, IMHO, this is exactly the reason why Buddha spoke of "not- self" instead of "no self". ----------------------------- You mean; rather than, `there is no self,' he chose to say, `all dhammas are not self.'' I think you're right. In his case, though, the problem would not have been that people would not believe him -- the people who sought his teaching would have believed anything he said. However, they might have mistaken `anatta' to mean, `nothing exists.' Therefore, he taught that only dhammas exist and that all dhammas have the characteristic, anatta. Some people in dsg are making that same mistake: In my opinion, anyone who thinks there are no paramattha dhammas (with their own sabhava) must believe that, ultimately, nothing exists. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Ken H > > My original post really pertained to matters pedagogical. 30324 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Your concerns (about choice of language) remind me of a message from > Rob M, in which he apologised for any offence he might have caused > the non-meditators. That was significant, I think. We know, only > too well, that by extolling the virtues of listening, considering > and discussing (Dhamma-study), we inevitably dispute the efficacy of > formal practice ( ================ dear Ken, I wouldn't want to disparage the virtues of these activities- however, I have come to see that there is much more to it than that. I used to think if anyone would study and consider carefully that eventually they would 'get it'. In fact it is only if there is true investigation of the present moment that understanding grows: and that in turn makes the theory clearer. Robk 30325 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:27pm Subject: Dhamma Study Hi all, I find the study guides prepared and introduced by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/index.html ) can be helpful in Dhamma study in an online forum such as DSG. I am interested to do a Dhamma study using these study guides with anyone who are interested in the same. Let me know if you are interested. Suggestions and feedback on how to go about doing Dhamma study using the study guides are welcome. The topics are listed as following: @Beyond Coping: The Buddha's Teachings on Aging, Illness, Death, and Separation @Body Contemplation An overview of the Buddha's teachings on contemplation of the body, and its role in the development of mindfulness, jhana, and discernment. @The Five Aggregates This anthology of short readings from the suttas explains how the teachings on the five aggregates (pañcakkhandha) -- form, feeling, perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness -- function in the Buddhist path to liberation. @The Four Noble Truths An introduction to the Four Noble Truths, the basic framework on which all the Buddha's teachings are built. @Kamma These readings give an overview of the Buddha's teaching of kamma (karma; intentional action). @Noble Conversation An exploration of the nature of right speech, based on the Buddha's list of ten ideal topics for conversation. @Non-violence @Recognizing the Dhamma Fortunately for us, the Buddha left behind specific guidelines by which we can judge the validity of any interpretation of Dhamma or Vinaya. These eight principles, sometimes called the "Constitution of Buddhism," show us that any teaching must finally be judged by the results that come from putting it into practice. @Stream-entry "Stream-entry" is the first of the four stages of Awakening, the goal towards which all the Buddha's teachings ultimately point. The sutta readings in this study guide are organized around the four factors that lead to the attainment of stream-entry and provide answers to questions of interest to all meditators. @The Ten Perfections The ten paramis (perfections) are skillful qualities that develop (perhaps over many lifetimes) as one follows the Buddha's path of practice. This study guide includes readings from the Pali Canon and from the teachings of Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo. @The Ten Recollections The ten anussati (recollections) are a set of practical tools for meditators to use when confronted with particular challenges (physical pain, for example) or unskillful states of mind (doubt, restlessness, complacency, etc.). Metta, Victor 30326 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Victor, Sarah, Ken, Howard, & all, Regarding knowledge of nama and rupa as the first stage of insight, the Satipatthana Sutta isn't really concerned with "stages of the path". In MN 24, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html , the path (mundane and supramundane) is divided into 7 stages called "purifications" in the Visuddhimagga. The third stage, Purification of View, is knowledge of nama and rupa. This knowledge is knowledge of the composite nature of nama and rupa. The Visuddhimagga explains it in almost overwhelming detail. Here is a simplified version by Matara Sri ~Nanarama in "The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight Knowledges" (BPS): "In mindfulness of breathing, for instance, the in-breaths and out-breaths belong to matter while the awareness of them is reckoned as mind. Normally, the in-breaths and the out-breaths strike against the tip of the nose or the upper lip as they enter and go out. The meditator should pay attention only to the occurrence of in-breathing and out-breathing. He should not follow the in-breaths inside the body or outside it, speculating on what becomes of them, since this will hinder concentration. As the meditator continues to keep his calm mind on the point of contact of the air being inhaled and exhaled (i.e. either at the tip of the nose or on the upper lip), he begins to feel as though his mind approaches and strikes the meditation subject. This happens at a developed stage in his meditation when he becomes aware of the distinction between mind and matter. The mind has the nature of bending towards or leaping towards an object. At first, every in-breath and out-breath appears as a compact unit. Later one begins to understand that the breath is a mass or heap. This is Delimitation of Matter. One then understands the awareness of the breath to be a series or "heap" of discrete thought-moments, each one a "heap" or mass of many mental factors. This is Delimitation of Mind. The ability to understand Mind-and-Matter as a heap necessarily implies the ability to distinguish one thing from another, since a heap is, by definition, a group of things lying one on another. This is the preliminary stage of the Knowledge of Delimitation of Mind-and-Matter. At first this understanding is limited to the subject of meditation. Later on it spreads to the other parts of the body connected with the subjects of meditation until it comes to pervade the whole body. Still later the understanding extends outward towards other beings as well as inanimate things, since the knowledge, when complete, is threefold: internal, external, and internal-external." Larry 30327 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi James, op 19-02-2004 13:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Let me ask you this Q: >> >> If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some > chores/be >> aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental > factors >> in meditation practice, who or what is `trying', `striving' or > making this >> `effort'? > I am, James Mitchell. That personality of 'James' won't be gone > until enlightenment. Till then, "I" keep on trucking on!! ;-)) N: I must admit that you are right. Even if there can be a moment of sati without thinking, there is still an underlying idea of *me*. A. Sujin was reminding us of this all the time. but the most important, I believe, is to realize that we are in this way. It is better to know than not to know! I also learnt another interesting point. It is the latent tendency of wrong view that is only eradicated at enlightenment, but, by the development of insight, stage by stage, this latent tendency is already in the process of being worn away. Now this sutta gets more meaning: it is a sutta Sarah quoted once to you that you liked. I could not get in Thailand B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101: This is said of the fetters, but it can also be said of latent tendencies. Please can you help me with B.B.'s notes? That is, if your computer time allows this. Nina. 30328 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi, Ken (and Andrew) - In a message dated 2/19/04 9:26:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Andrew, > > Your concerns (about choice of language) remind me of a message from > Rob M, in which he apologised for any offence he might have caused > the non-meditators. That was significant, I think. We know, only > too well, that by extolling the virtues of listening, considering > and discussing (Dhamma-study), we inevitably dispute the efficacy of > formal practice (that is, we risk offending the meditators). > However, as Rob implied, the reverse is also true: whenever a > Buddhist extols formal practice, he denigrates study. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think you are incorrect on both counts. Extolling the virtues of listening, considering and discussing is not, in itself, disputing the efficacy of any other aspects of practice, and extolling other aspects of practice, including, "formal" meditation, is not in itself a denigration of study. There is no reason one cannot do both, and there is every reason to believe that each is supportive of the other. -------------------------------------------------- > > There is no sitting on the fence: it has to be one way or the > other. If anatta is to be taken seriously, then formal practice is > not compatible with the Dhamma. If formal practice is to be taken > seriously, then a literal understanding of anatta (no self who can > practice) is an impediment. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this is complete nonsense. For the worldling anatta is rarely more than mere belief! You can believe all you want that there is no self, but you still can stand up if you wish, and you can sit down if you wish, and, for that matter, so could the Buddha, who (I believe) *knew* there was no self. When you are an arahant, Ken, and may that be soon, then you will come at things from the perspective of nibbana. Until then, to have the opinion that there is no self and that, thus, nothing can be done because there is no "one" to do it, is to pretend enlightenment when there is none, it is to delude oneself as to what one's possibilities are, and it is to guarantee stagnation on the path. The Buddha taught his followers to DO a variety of things, including act morally, guard the senses, cultivate the divine abidings, master the jhanas, meditate mindfully on the four foundations, and so on and so forth. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Some say that anatta (and other ultimate realities) will be relevant > when we reach the final goal, not before. This makes us study-bugs > look ridiculous – as if we are putting a cart in front of a horse. > (The very thing we accuse the meditators of doing.) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hah! Interesting. I had not read ahead to this point when I wrote my earlier comments. It seems that yes, indeed, I am one of those "some", but not entirely so. There can be a growing awareness of anatta prior to arahanthood, even prior to stream entry. But confusing mere belief or even a slight awareness with true direct knowing is a sabotaging error I believe. We MUST always keep in mind that we start where we are, not where we hope to be. The beginning of wisdom is not the awe of God (as Jews and Christians are wont to say), nor the ability to distinguish nama from rupa (as some Buddhists are wont to say), but to know, clearly and with little illusion, what is one's current status, and to be able to distinguish what one believes from what one directly knows. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Inevitably, in a discussion group like this, toes are going to be > trodden on! > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, so what? There are plenty of podiatrists around! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > A: >How many times have you encountered people who dismiss Dhamma > with a wave of the hand and an incredulous laugh when they are first > told that, according to Buddha, they "don't really exist". These > people are not dummies, either. I believe you have had exactly this > same experience with one of our nation's leading intellectuals? > --------------------- > > Before people think I have been hobnobbing with celebrities, I > should explain that, about ten years ago, I wrote to my favourite > left-wing social commentator (who has a chat show on public radio). > He had previously paid lip service to Buddhism and so I thought he > would be amenable to a little more information. One of his > favourite conversation topics was, "coping with the fear of dying," > and so I summarised the Abhidhamma perspective (along the lines > of; "Mere suffering exists; no sufferer is found,"). He wrote > back; "I can't see how that would help with fear of toothache, let > alone fear of dying!" > > Such was my brush with fame. :-) > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Mere notions and opinions and beliefs and claims have little useful effect. What we see directly and know for ourselves to be true is what has useful effect. That is the virtue of the Kalama Sutta - to make that clear. ------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------- > <. . . . > > A: >Well, IMHO, this is exactly the reason why Buddha spoke of "not- > self" instead of "no self". > ----------------------------- > > You mean; rather than, `there is no self,' he chose to say, `all > dhammas are not self.'' I think you're right. In his case, though, > the problem would not have been that people would not believe him -- > the people who sought his teaching would have believed anything he > said. However, they might have mistaken `anatta' to mean, `nothing > exists.' Therefore, he taught that only dhammas exist and that all > dhammas have the characteristic, anatta. > > Some people in dsg are making that same mistake: In my opinion, > anyone who thinks there are no paramattha dhammas (with their own > sabhava) must believe that, ultimately, nothing exists. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course there are paramattha dhammas - that is, phenomena the clear and direct knowing of which leads to the ultimate goal (parama attha) - and it is the direct knowing of their tripartite nature of anicca, dukkha, and anatta that enables the attaining of that ultimate goal. ------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30329 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi, Larry (and all) - In a message dated 2/19/04 11:54:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Victor, Sarah, Ken, Howard, &all, > > Regarding knowledge of nama and rupa as the first stage of insight, the > Satipatthana Sutta isn't really concerned with "stages of the path". In > MN 24, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html , > the path (mundane and supramundane) is divided into 7 stages called > "purifications" in the Visuddhimagga. The third stage, Purification of > View, is knowledge of nama and rupa. This knowledge is knowledge of the > composite nature of nama and rupa. The Visuddhimagga explains it in > almost overwhelming detail. Here is a simplified version by Matara Sri > ~Nanarama in "The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight > Knowledges" (BPS): > > "In mindfulness of breathing, for instance, the in-breaths and > out-breaths belong to matter while the awareness of them is reckoned as > mind. Normally, the in-breaths and the out-breaths strike against the > tip of the nose or the upper lip as they enter and go out. The meditator > should pay attention only to the occurrence of in-breathing and > out-breathing. He should not follow the in-breaths inside the body or > outside it, speculating on what becomes of them, since this will hinder > concentration. As the meditator continues to keep his calm mind on the > point of contact of the air being inhaled and exhaled (i.e. either at > the tip of the nose or on the upper lip), he begins to feel as though > his mind approaches and strikes the meditation subject. This happens at > a developed stage in his meditation when he becomes aware of the > distinction between mind and matter. The mind has the nature of bending > towards or leaping towards an object. At first, every in-breath and > out-breath appears as a compact unit. Later one begins to understand > that the breath is a mass or heap. This is Delimitation of Matter. One > then understands the awareness of the breath to be a series or "heap" of > discrete thought-moments, each one a "heap" or mass of many mental > factors. This is Delimitation of Mind. The ability to understand > Mind-and-Matter as a heap necessarily implies the ability to distinguish > one thing from another, since a heap is, by definition, a group of > things lying one on another. > > This is the preliminary stage of the Knowledge of Delimitation of > Mind-and-Matter. At first this understanding is limited to the subject > of meditation. Later on it spreads to the other parts of the body > connected with the subjects of meditation until it comes to pervade the > whole body. Still later the understanding extends outward towards other > beings as well as inanimate things, since the knowledge, when complete, > is threefold: internal, external, and internal-external." > > Larry > > ================================ The Vsm may say what it says about this matter, but there is nothing in the sutta itself that gives the slightest suggestion that distinguishing nama from rupa is involved. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30330 From: Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi again, Ken (and Andrew) - In a message dated 2/19/04 9:26:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Your concerns (about choice of language) remind me of a message from > Rob M, in which he apologised for any offence he might have caused > the non-meditators. That was significant, I think. We know, only > too well, that by extolling the virtues of listening, considering > and discussing (Dhamma-study), we inevitably dispute the efficacy of > formal practice (that is, we risk offending the meditators). > However, as Rob implied, the reverse is also true: whenever a > Buddhist extols formal practice, he denigrates study. > ============================ With regard to the foregoing, and my comment that there need not be a strict choice of one or the other, the following article may be of relevance: http://www.dhammatimes.com/wisetalk/2004/01/040118-scholars-meditators.htm With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30331 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack k: Thanks for trying to answer my questions. Please do not miscontrue me. I am not here to win an argument or disparge you to prove I am right or whatever. I am just here to provide you another viewpoint that is different from most modern writers and thinkers. > Ken O, > > I'll try to answer your questions. When I try to do vipassana > meditation, I don't still thoughts. My mind does calm down. Thoughts as well as other sensations arise and pass away without my having to manage or control them. Thinking, hearing, body sensing occur but without involvement of an "I". I can get up from sitting meditation to do walking meditation and no "self" is involved. k: I am wondering, why do you need to sit to be calm. What is satipatthana, is it waiting to sit on one small corner and then do vipassana meditation to achieve it. Can one expect to be calm when one effort is conditioned by a concept of sitting down to achieve something. In that sense, do you believe the calm that you have, can be a result of your believe that these works. Then IMHO your believe is based on the premises of a self that does something. Can self do things which itself which is not self. Are you preceiveing a self to achieve a not-self. Is it possible for making an effort in this self and practise a not-self. Or should it be a not-self that should known in every moment rather than in moments of sitting down which could possible condition by a self that believes by doing this we can realise not-self. The starting premises is very impt in Buddhist practise, wrong start means wrong way of practise. Even if one attain the four jhanas, but if the premise is wrong, one only attained a very long life in the next life, not even a stream entrant. k: Another question I always ask pple samadhi meditation, what is samadhi meditation is it just focusing on one object. Firstly can mind be control to focus on one object. Secondly if you look at Samadhi sutta - one would know that actually Samadhi is the every moment of the six senses. Then, in the sati suttas <"I am breathing in a long breath"; breathing out a long breath, he knows, "I am breathing out a long breath";> - The sutta say - what is know, it is knowing earth as earth, water as water... . It meant it is every single mind or matter element are understood as it is. Hence in sati sutta it is not just sitting down doing breathing and mindfullness exercise, it is panna at work. k: Sometimes, pple assert that it is Buddha that encourage sittig down <>. One got to cross reference with other sutta, in other suttas, going into the forest is not recommend if one is not well guarded in the senses etc.. Hence looking at sati sutta one must look cross reference it with other suttas, pple always disregard the impt words in the sutta like "he knows" or "going into the forest", these are impt, they show this sutta is not just as simple as just sitting down. k: Hence is concentration that is one-pointed is equivalent to stillness or calmness of mind. Do you think it is possible for calmess or stillness of mind to eradicated ignorance? Ken O 30332 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:10am Subject: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi Howard, > ========================= > > Sure, both these cetasikas will be there in all javana cittas. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure - for *everybody* - saint and sinner, caregiver and killer. And these could be there weakly or strongly. But specific conditions are required for specific results, and it is by volition that a "person" effects an outcome, and only with that. --------------------------------------------- Sukin: Each one of these persons may have from time to time, the intention to be free of akusala. If all four were faced with a similar situation and for all hiri and ottappa arose, what would determine if guarding of the senses would take place? Volition?!! If none of the above people know anything about Satipatthana, would sati of this level arise? And if one of them, say the killer, has heard the Buddha's teachings on Satipatthana and is reminded about the teachings that very instant, and sati arose, would it be because he intended it? Or would it have been due to prior accumulated knowledge, practice and wisdom? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Just picking it up to read? Of course not. That would be a mere beginning. It must be read, studied, contemplated - all requiring volition. But, then, it also must be applied! --------------------------------------------- Sukin: The conventional activity of studying and listening to Dhamma does in the same conventional way, require effort and volition. Without this effort and volition, there would not be such activity. But being attracted to the dhamma at all, and consequently from time to time, understanding it, and the conditions which later arise for `contemplation' to take place, these are *not* volitional in the same sense as those conventional activities. These cannot be willed. So who applies? ----------------------------------------------- Would telling > > oneself 'to do this' or 'not do that' be 'patipatti'? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh .. no? ;-) Telling oneself to do this or that is just telling oneself. DOING this or that is action, and it requires volition - impulse that leads to action. I can *tell* myself to stand up, and nothing will happen. But let a snake approach me and I will JUMP up and move away in an instant. The fear and desire lead to powerful volition that bears fruit. Vitakka is not the same as cetana. ----------------------------------------------- Sukin: ;-/ Sorry. I wanted to correct the above, but decided instead to leave it and wait for your reaction. ;-) As in the above case where conventional activity of `reading' is distinguished from paramatthic activity of `understanding', I think it important to remember this difference. When we have a mental picture of what is to be done, then convention comes in. And if this `doing' concerns the idea of `development of wisdom', then silabattaparamasa is there and I think we will instead be developing more ignorance. On the other hand, if the understanding is firm about say, `cause and fruits', namely that akusala leads one way and kusala another, then without `intending', sati may arise to guard the senses. Likewise, whether there will be kusala in subsequent moments would depend on previously accumulated sati and panna. So far we have talked about `guarding the sense', where the understanding of satipatthana is necessary. Now let's talk about just keeping sila. Even if we are sure that the present citta were kusala and so the volition, what would it mean to say, `refrain from harsh speech'? Wouldn't it be only that very moment when the akusala thoughts had arisen and then sati arose? There would be volition no doubt, but what would have conditioned this sati? Would it not have been because of seeing the danger in akusala? We can bite our tongues, but would that be sila? I think I may not be getting your point and I am basically just repeating the same thing as in the other posts. So it is up to you if you would like to elaborate further, otherwise we can just leave this discussion for now. What say you? ====================== With metta, Howard ==================== Metta, Sukin 30333 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:34am Subject: Starting out on Abhidhamma Hello everyone. This morning, I read the following passage posted by Jon. "I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries is necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses. What was said in the suttas was addressed to persons who were on the whole of highly developed understanding, many of them ripe for immediate or imminent enlightenment (in other words, of much greater understanding than ourselves), so much of it goes over our heads, even though the language seems familiar. Without the help of the Abhidhamma and commentaries we may misconstrue the suttas." I had been going along quite happily having heard of the Abhidhamma but assuming that it was over my head and of theoretical interest only. The passage above, and the first chapter of Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" have got me thinking otherwise. I expect I'll continue my conceptual practice with it's emphasis on Brahma-Viharas and conventional reality on one hand, while pressing gently ahead into an understanding of absolute reality through study of Abhidhamma on the other. This kind of playing with a balance of conventional and absolute realities seems central to Buddhism, to this beginner's understanding at least. Anyways, thanks for the nudge about Abhidhamma, Jon. Metta Phil P.S And the first chapter of Nina's book has already enabled me to better understand what the heck you folks are talking about all the time! :) 30334 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > Dear Sarah: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes! As a singer I am a complete disaster! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- S:;-) That’s OK, the Dhammasangani is more precious. .... > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As a matter of fact that is the way I think about it: if you feel > depressed or amused by mundane traits, a good reading will do it > good... and The Dhammasangani, with its unique style of stating > orderly dhammas and states of consciousness are very precious. If you > prefer a more intrincate combinatory analysis of Paccayas and Dhammas, > The Patthanapali is the best. > Or, if you wants a direct and rueful reply to your answer, The > Vibhanga or Yamaka FAQ style will fit it. I like reading these works > as many as I like read THE UNCANNY X-MEN ! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Please keep sharing snippets for us to consider. I was fascinated by your tale of how you came across them and how you learnt English, but surely not from the Abhidhamma in Pali?.....:-/ ....> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am not proposing a nazi "Final Solution" for akusala patterns and > moods. Buddha had teached many methods and ways to get rid of Samsara > and reach Nibbana, to recognize and identify Kusala and akusala > Dhammas, hetu and ahetu Paccayas and all its doors, roots and > aggregates. Since I am more directed to intellectual views, reading > about it at the Tipitaka indeed makes me good... I only felt myself > urged to say some words to Carl about his problems! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- S:I think it helps a lot to hear and consider what everyone finds useful. Sometimes just a few words considered wisely whilst we’re busy or stressed out can help a lot. .... > > p.sIcaro, what does it mean to say "Sariputta is the Zen of > Angulimala" > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Reading at the Atthaka XVI, "Sariputta Sutta", we get ( again I > will try to quote it by memory...and with a loose translation! Alas!): > > "What a wonderful person", says Sariputta pointed out to Buddha, > "Seems me to me that He came down from the Tushita Heaven!... The > Bhagavan could say to us , etc...". ..... S:I just remembered what you’re referring to (it’s taken me this time ;-)) Sutta-Nipata, Ch of the 8s, Sariputta Sutta: “Venerable Sariputta said: Neither have I seen, nor has anyone heard of such a sweet-tongued Master coming down from the Tusita heaven [S: presumably after teaching the Abhidhamma to his mother] to the midst of the many. The one with vision appears as he really is to the world of men and gods and after having dispelled all darkness he alone attained happiness. Here, from the many, I have come supplicatingly, with a question for the Buddha who is unattached, a guileless teacher who has arrived in the world.....” .... >This initial passage shows some > sarcasm of Sariputta towards Buddha. ... S:I don’t think so. An arahant wouldn’t show any sarcasm (always with unwholesome connotations in English). You’d have to elaborate..maybe a Portuguese equivalent has another meaning. .... >At other passages with Moggalana > we get a suggestion that he was a "Thunderhead" himself. As > Angulimala, that was a murderer. ... S:I’ve changed murder to murderer, but still haven’t worked out the connection here between Moggalana, Angulimala, Sariputta, sarcasm and Tusita:-/ ?? .... > Traditionally, Buddha never put the Zen at a so high > platform... Mahakassyapa was the manager of this particular path of > practising. Following up the Anatta line of reasoning on Buddhism > exegesis, we get the same non-self process flowing from Angulimala, at > a low stand or staircase to Sariputta at a high position of > understanding. Since there are not a essence such "Self", "I","You", > "She" or "He" from Angulimala to Sariputta but the "Thunderhead" > common caracteristic ( a "guna" ?), I say that "Sariputta is the Zen > or the mindfulness of Angulimala. > Frankly, Mathematics is more simple and clever!!! .... S: I understand the last line only!! Glad for any further explanations about how zen, MahaKassapa and thunderheads fit in too:-/ Maybe it'll all make sense by next Valentine's Day;-)If anyone else would like to add clues, that would be helpful too. ..... Metta, Sarah ===== 30335 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:26am Subject: Universal & Timeless Truths! Friends: The Ovada-Patimokkha: Patience is the Supreme Praxis Nibbana is the Supreme Tolerance By Violence one is not Gone Forth By Harming one is not a Recluse So say all Buddhas! Avoiding all Evil Doing only Good Cleaning the Mind So teach all Buddhas! Harmless & Kinds Controlled by Norm Moderated in Eating Remote Seclusion Training Meditation So practise all Buddhas! This Universal Norm is recited by all Buddhas! From an infinite past into an endless future! Timeless is thus these Universal Truths... All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30336 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:25am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear Sarah > S:;-) That's OK, the Dhammasangani is more precious. > .... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ This could be a sort of attachment of my part... anyway, the other Abhidhamma's other books and Tiikas are very good too. However, the fact is I really like Dhammasangani style! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: Please keep sharing snippets for us to consider. I was fascinated by > your tale of how you came across them and how you learnt English, but > surely not from the Abhidhamma in Pali?.....:-/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh! Don't be so amused ;-)). At Pali Language I am threading a path a quite similar for my former learnings(Hah!Hah!). I am taking the Duroseille's, the Elementary Pali Course of Maha Narada Thera and a direct approach of the Abhidhamma itself. It's being very fruitful! The Visuddhimagga I will buy the complete and unabridged book out of Pariyatti and BPS. The first chapter Coonie had provided me arose my appetite! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sometimes just a few words considered wisely whilst we're busy or stressed > out can help a lot. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Freud had already pointed out the links between the our sub- conscience and the human being hearing apparatus. a good and nice word makes real good! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > S:I just remembered what you're referring to (it's taken me this time ;-)) > > Sutta-Nipata, Ch of the 8s, Sariputta Sutta: > > "Venerable Sariputta said: > > Neither have I seen, nor has anyone heard of such a sweet-tongued Master > coming down from the Tusita heaven [S: presumably after teaching the > Abhidhamma to his mother] to the midst of the many. > > S:I don't think so. An arahant wouldn't show any sarcasm (always with > unwholesome connotations in English). You'd have to elaborate..maybe a > Portuguese equivalent has another meaning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed. I can say unto you, Sarah, that reading the portuguese translation of the Chapter of Eights gave me really this impression - something like "Let us try this venerable Holy Man and check out if he has really got a knack on these ascetic matters!". Only reading the Pali originals I can build up a better concept about it! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > S:I've changed murder to murderer, but still haven't worked out the > connection here between Moggalana, Angulimala, Sariputta, sarcasm and > Tusita:-/ ?? -------------------------------------------------------------------- I will try to ellaborate this view: Buddha is really above such low tracts of murdering, slandering and so on. As a matter of fact, a mundane person stucked on these lower realms ought to spend many and many lives to purify his/hers lives and begin to thread up the Path towards Nibbana. No one can expect a state of Satipatthana fully developed on Angulimala, for example, without the direct act of Buddha. But since he is a "Thunderhead" himself, the arahat more akin of his temper could be Sariputta. So, at Zen viewpoint, Sariputta the Arahat is the mindfullness being Angulimala could emulate on to stand at same feet! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe it'll all > make sense by next Valentine's Day;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah!!! "Roses are red, Violets are bleargh, But you are the best flower, That came from Armagh!" (No!!! No!!! Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30337 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Sarah & Victor, > If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the > first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known > as nama and rupa as rupa, what are other discourses that support the > claim, and how? Actually, this claim is all over the suttas. What is the point of classifying the five aggregates as form, consciousness, perception, feelings and fabrications? If one can't even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, how could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html § 8. Form. Sariputta: "And what, friends, is form as a clinging-aggregate? The four great existents and the form derived from them. And what are the four great existents? They are the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property. § 9. Feeling. "And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling -- feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling." § 11. Perception. "And what is perception? These six classes of perception -- perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception." § 12. Fabrications. "And what are fabrications? There are these six classes of intention: intention aimed at sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas. These are called fabrications." § 15. Consciousness. "And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness." Regards, Swee Boon 30338 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration / Jhana!! *Why?* was Re: The Dhamma Theory Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 2/20/04 6:11:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >========================= > > > >Sure, both these cetasikas will be there in all javana cittas. > > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sure - for *everybody* - saint and sinner, caregiver and killer. And > these could be there weakly or strongly. But specific conditions are > required for specific results, and it is by volition that a "person" > effects an outcome, and only with that. > --------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > Each one of these persons may have from time to time, the intention > to be free of akusala. If all four were faced with a similar > situation and for all hiri and ottappa arose, what would determine > if guarding of the senses would take place? Volition?!! -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are multiple conditions that determine any event. I don't say "no" to that! The inclinations that one has are, themselves, consequences. ------------------------------------------------------- > > If none of the above people know anything about Satipatthana, would > sati of this level arise? And if one of them, say the killer, has > heard the Buddha's teachings on Satipatthana and is reminded about > the teachings that very instant, and sati arose, would it be because > he intended it? Or would it have been due to prior accumulated > knowledge, practice and wisdom? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes and yes. Multiple influences. Only a fool would play down "prior accumulated knowledge, practice and wisdom," and, also, only a fool would play down the role of volition in human action. -------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Just picking it up to read? Of course not. That would be a mere > beginning. It must be read, studied, contemplated - all requiring > volition. But, then, it also must be applied! > --------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > The conventional activity of studying and listening to Dhamma does > in the same conventional way, require effort and volition. Without > this effort and volition, there would not be such activity. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I say no more than that. --------------------------------------------------------- But > > being attracted to the dhamma at all, and consequently from time to > time, understanding it, and the conditions which later arise > for `contemplation' to take place, these are *not* volitional in the > same sense as those conventional activities. These cannot be willed. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's quite true. Who says otherwise? Not I. Of course, what we are attracted to is at least in part determined by prior kamma (volition and volitional action). Think about it, Sukin: Doesn't the Buddha make much of the role of kamma in human affairs? And what is kamma? It is volition! -------------------------------------------------------- > So who applies? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Conventionally, you and I do. Literally speaking, no one does. -------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------- > > Would telling > > >oneself 'to do this' or 'not do that' be 'patipatti'? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Uh .. no? ;-) Telling oneself to do this or that is just telling > oneself. DOING this or that is action, and it requires volition - > impulse that leads to action. I can *tell* myself to stand up, and > nothing will happen. But let a snake approach me and I will JUMP up > and move away in an instant. The fear and desire lead to powerful > volition that bears fruit. Vitakka is not the same as cetana. > ----------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > ;-/ Sorry. I wanted to correct the above, but decided instead to > leave it and wait for your reaction. ;-) > > As in the above case where conventional activity of `reading' is > distinguished from paramatthic activity of `understanding', I think > it important to remember this difference. When we have a mental > picture of what is to be done, then convention comes in. And if > this `doing' concerns the idea of `development of wisdom', then > silabattaparamasa is there and I think we will instead be developing > more ignorance. On the other hand, if the understanding is firm > about say, `cause and fruits', namely that akusala leads one way and > kusala another, then without `intending', sati may arise to guard > the senses. Likewise, whether there will be kusala in subsequent > moments would depend on previously accumulated sati and panna. > > So far we have talked about `guarding the sense', where the > understanding of satipatthana is necessary. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Devout Catholics guard the senses as well, using, I believe, very much the same terminology. As the Buddha described the process, it amounts to paying attention to what thoughts arise in the mind, and acting as follows: not initiating harmful ones, cutting short harmful ones already begun, initiating wholesome ones, and extending wholesome ones already begun. (And all religions generally lay out what sorts of basic thoughts are wholesome and which are not. The fundamental moral precepts of all religions share a common core - of not taking life, of good will not ill will, being truthful, not coveting the property of others etc, etc) ------------------------------------------------ > > Now let's talk about just keeping sila. Even if we are sure that the > present citta were kusala and so the volition, what would it mean to > say, `refrain from harsh speech'? Wouldn't it be only that very > moment when the akusala thoughts had arisen and then sati arose? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is exactly when it would go into effect. But the cultivation of the tendency towards that is a long-term matter. (And, of course, repeated contemplation of the importance of kind speech is an important aspect of that cultivation, a cultivation which, among other things, requires volition.) ------------------------------------------------- > There would be volition no doubt, but what would have conditioned > this sati? Would it not have been because of seeing the danger in > akusala? We can bite our tongues, but would that be sila? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing the danger will often be part of the motivation. Also love of sentient beings, lovingkindness and compassion. And, yes, biting our tongues *could* be sila as well - depending on intent. If mostly selfishly motivated, then to that extent not. ------------------------------------------------- > > I think I may not be getting your point and I am basically just > repeating the same thing as in the other posts. So it is up to you > if you would like to elaborate further, otherwise we can just leave > this discussion for now. What say you? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have nothing further to add. We can let it go. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > ====================== > With metta, > Howard > ==================== > Metta, > Sukin > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30339 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi, Swee Boon (and Sarah and Victor) - In a message dated 2/20/04 7:34:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Sarah &Victor, > > >If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the > >first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known > >as nama and rupa as rupa, what are other discourses that support the > >claim, and how? > > Actually, this claim is all over the suttas. What is the point of > classifying the five aggregates as form, consciousness, perception, > feelings and fabrications? > > If one can't even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, how > could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html > > § 8. Form. Sariputta: "And what, friends, is form as a > clinging-aggregate? The four great existents and the form derived from > them. And what are the four great existents? They are the earth > property, the liquid property, the fire property, &the wind property. > > § 9. Feeling. "And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling -- > feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born > of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of > body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called > feeling." > > § 11. Perception. "And what is perception? These six classes of > perception -- perception of form, perception of sound, perception of > smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, > perception of ideas: this is called perception." > > § 12. Fabrications. "And what are fabrications? There are these six > classes of intention: intention aimed at sights, sounds, smells, > tastes, tactile sensations, &ideas. These are called fabrications." > > § 15. Consciousness. "And what is consciousness? These six classes of > consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, > nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, > intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness." > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > =========================== I understand what you have quoted here as consisting of the Buddha defining his terms so that the listener will understand exactly the range of what he is talking about in each case when saying "rupa", "vedana", "sa~n~na", "sankhara", and "vi~n~nana". But what the Buddha says here would be completely unintelligible to the listener if s/he couldn't already distinguish, at least most of the time and in principle, sights etc, pleasantness etc, recognition, volition etc, and awareness from each other. The fact that the Buddha discussed the five khandhas, done as a skillful means to induce nongrasping (of what arises) as me and mine, is far different from his having put forward the distinguishing of mental from physical as an allegedly major step towards enlightenment. If such distinguishing were a major step, then we would all be well on our way! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30340 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Dear Swee Boon, It has been nice to read up your message as it is so clear not to confuse anything up. If I may, let me ask you questions here. What are Pali equivalents for 1. Constructing the Aggregates 2. Constructing a Self 3. Constructing ther Path 4. Deconstruction that are discribed in the link you made that is at accesstoinsight. Could you explain mmore on five means of propagation 1. root, 2. stem, 3. joint, 4. cutting, 5. seed-propagation? I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Sarah & Victor, > > > If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the > > first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known > > as nama and rupa as rupa, 30341 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:14am Subject: Dhamma Study - Recognizing the Dhamma (1) Hi all, Here is the first part (title, contents, and introduction) of the study guide on recognizing the Dhamma: Recognizing the Dhamma A Study Guide Prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Contents Introduction The Eight Principles 1. Dispassion 2. Being Unfettered 3. Shedding 4. Modesty 5. Contentment 6. Seclusion 7. Persistence 8. Being Unburdensome --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Introduction Shortly after her ordination, the Buddha's step-mother, Mahapajapati Gotami, asked him for a short Dhamma-instruction that would guide her in her solitary practice. He responded with eight principles for recognizing what qualifies as Dhamma and Vinaya, and what does not. The commentary tells us that after her instruction, Mahapajapati Gotami in no long time became an arahant. The eight principles have been widely cited ever since. One Thai writer has called them the "constitution of Buddhism" as they form the standards against which the validity of any interpretation of the Dhamma or Vinaya must be judged. Perhaps the most important point that these principles make is that any teaching has to be judged by the results that come when putting it into practice. They are an excellent illustration of the teachings given in the well- known Kalama Sutta (AN III.65), as well as in the teachings that the Buddha gave to his son, Rahula (MN 61). The Canon illustrates these principles not only with abstract discussions but also with stories, and the stories are often more memorable than the discussions. Thus this study guide differs from its companions in that it is predominantly composed of stories. Bear in mind as you read the stories that they are often framed in somewhat extreme terms to drive their points home. Sister Subha [§1.4], Kali [§2.10], Prince Dighavu [§3.3], and the monk whose limbs are being removed by a saw [§2.10] would not be as memorable if their stories were framed in more realistic terms. Also bear in mind that there is some overlap among the principles, and that a passage may illustrate more than one at a time. Thus, for instance, the story of Ven. Isidatta [§2.11] analyzes the fetter of self-identity views, at the same time illustrating the principles of modesty and non-entanglement. The most extensive overlap is between the principle of dispassion and that of not being fettered, as passion in its various forms covers three of the ten fetters that bind a person to the round of rebirth. Thus the section on dispassion contains passages dealing with how to overcome the three "passion fetters" -- sensual passion, passion for the sense of form experienced in the jhanas of form, and passion for the sense of formlessness experienced in the formless jhanas -- whereas the section on being unfettered treats the remaining seven fetters. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html Metta, Victor 30342 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack Actually I have more to say, just bear with me for a little while longer. When Buddha said restrain, guard your senses, developed yourself, what does it really meant? Can we said that we could guard our senses purposedly? Whenever there is a pleasant or unpleasant object meet the consciouness, if one is infatuated or immerse in that feelings, one is not guarding. When one is reminded at that instance of that not guarding that is called guarding. That sudden realization of guarding is not a purposed guarding as miscontrue by many pple, it is the accumulated panna that is at work. Furthermore as long as one is awake, one cannot run away from the six senses. We can only guard when mindfullness arise with panna understanding the characteristic of the object. That moment is call vipassana meditation and not otherwise. Furthermore, one cannot purposedly trying to be alert bc it will sap ones energy. If dont believe me, try to do it for just one hour, one will be tired bc it is a purposed actions. There is heighten sense of being alert and that alertness is condition by a concept that *one should do this or do that*. Furthermore, with regards to guarding of the six sense and developing them. Is this said in the context of just sitting down. One can see many examples of mindfullness practise in eating, collecting alms and even about to sleep and waking up mindfully. Could these activities confine mindfullness to just sitting down and doing concentration as you have quoted from TB. These are just my thoughts - throw it away if you think it is rubbish ;-). I am always full of them. See you around here and you might never know what you will know and there are always surprises here. Ken O Guarding of six senses is not taken that you are on a heighten alert level to observe the six sense object, 30343 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/20/04 1:44:33 AM Central Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: k: I am wondering, why do you need to sit to be calm. What is satipatthana, is it waiting to sit on one small corner and then do vipassana meditation to achieve it. Can one expect to be calm when one effort is conditioned by a concept of sitting down to achieve something. In that sense, do you believe the calm that you have, can be a result of your believe that these works. Then IMHO your believe is based on the premises of a self that does something. Can self do things which itself which is not self. Are you preceiveing a self to achieve a not-self. Is it possible for making an effort in this self and practise a not-self. Or should it be a not-self that should known in every moment rather than in moments of sitting down which could possible condition by a self that believes by doing this we can realise not-self. The starting premises is very impt in Buddhist practise, wrong start means wrong way of practise. Even if one attain the four jhanas, but if the premise is wrong, one only attained a very long life in the next life, not even a stream entrant. Ken. When an expert plays a musical instrument, they play without thinking. They just do it without striving, without thought of musical scales, etc. But, to get to that level of expertise, they must start off in their learning process very mechanically and playing scales very slowly. There is a big gap between where they start off learning and where they end up. It is the same with vipassana. One starts off with visible effort striving to see certain aspects of our experience. But, after a time, one is able to just do it--without striving, without the concepts useful earlier in our learning experience. An expert muscian can play anywhere and anytime, for instance, in a crowded club with lots of noise and distractions. But, a beginner needs a quiet space by himself where he can concentrate on practice. Just so with meditation. It is useful, as the Buddha suggests, to get off by yourself to meditate. Eventually, one can bring a meditative approach to all of their life. So, in both playing a musical instrument and in meditation, one needs to start off in a different way than one ends up. k: Another question I always ask pple samadhi meditation, what is samadhi meditation is it just focusing on one object. Firstly can mind be control to focus on one object. Secondly if you look at Samadhi sutta - one would know that actually Samadhi is the every moment of the six senses. Samadhi meditation can focus on one object. One can focus on the breath nimitta and all the other senses are not in evidence. k: Sometimes, pple assert that it is Buddha that encourage sittig down <>. One got to cross reference with other sutta, in other suttas, going into the forest is not recommend if one is not well guarded in the senses etc.. Hence looking at sati sutta one must look cross reference it with other suttas, pple always disregard the impt words in the sutta like "he knows" or "going into the forest", these are impt, they show this sutta is not just as simple as just sitting down. k: Hence is concentration that is one-pointed is equivalent to stillness or calmness of mind. Do you think it is possible for calmess or stillness of mind to eradicated ignorance? I thought I had already answered that in my previous post. Only wisdom eradicates ignorance. jack 30344 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack and (Victor) Hey its me again, I am in a very long winded mood today. So I have the urge again to write something more. Just borrowing some of your time if you dont mind I just read an intersting sutta refer by Swee Boon MN 109 (I am reading the B Bodhi version). In the end, if you see carefully <> - so is there any reference of jhanas here. Then to be fair (before James said that I did not type out the notes) - <> then again is there any reference of jhanas here. They meditated on a different subject - meditate can mean a few things, it can mean comtemplate or thinking or reflecting - depends on what you like. Then again in end of the Fire Sermon SN XXXV.28 sutta. <> (this is using TB version as I do not know how to locate this sutta in Bodhi version) There is no jhanas mention at all in this sutta, so do one need jhanas to gain enlightement ;-). I hope this is the last one I type today so not to bore you too much details kind regards Ken O 30345 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:04am Subject: An Instance of the Role of Volition Hi, all - At http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html, one can read: _________________________ (Insight Knowledge) "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision. ... ------------------------------------------- This can likewise be found in the Kevatta sutta at the link http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html, and also at the link http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html ============================ We see here how, from the base of the 4th jhana, it is possible for one to direct and incline the concentrated mind. To direct and incline the mind is to take volitional action. It is particularly easy to effectively do this when the hindrances have been suppressed and the mind is fully equanimous. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30346 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi, Ken (and Jack and Victor) - In a message dated 2/20/04 11:05:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Jack and (Victor) > > Hey its me again, I am in a very long winded mood today. So I have > the urge again to write something more. Just borrowing some of your > time if you dont mind > > I just read an intersting sutta refer by Swee Boon MN 109 (I am > reading the B Bodhi version). In the end, if you see carefully > < minds of sixty bhikkhus were liberated from the taints>> - so is > there any reference of jhanas here. Then to be fair (before James > said that I did not type out the notes) - < Bhikkhus discarded their original meditation subjects and > investigated a new subject (based on Buddha's discourse MT). Without > breaking their posture, right in their seats they attain > arahantship>> then again is there any reference of jhanas here. They > meditated on a different subject - meditate can mean a few things, it > can mean comtemplate or thinking or reflecting - depends on what you > like. > > Then again in end of the Fire Sermon SN XXXV.28 sutta. < his utterance, the hearts of thousand bhikkhus were liberated through > clinging no more.>> (this is using TB version as I do not know how to > locate this sutta in Bodhi version) There is no jhanas mention at > all in this sutta, so do one need jhanas to gain enlightement ;-). > > I hope this is the last one I type today so not to bore you too much > details > > > kind regards > Ken O > ============================ Meditation is a cultivation practice, and only occasionally an entree to an "enlightenment experience". But the cultivated mind can let go and "leap into nibbana" at a turning word (just the right phrase at the right time) or even at a sound or a sharp sensation. When the fruit is ripe it takes but a small breeze to let it fall from the branch. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30347 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack J: An expert muscian can play anywhere and anytime, for instance, in a crowded club with lots of noise and distractions. k: That is a good example but experts still need a time and space to do it whereas satipatthana can be done even while one is doing toiletering, before sleeping, eating, waking up etc. Then again that is what I meant by starting out the wrong permise. I have also quote a sutta earler to Victor "All the Taints" MN 2. <> So are you perceiving a self that can achieve a not-self by purposedly practising K: Then again your example of the expert, if the expert started on the wrong note, will the expert knows it is the wrong note since all along the expert taught it is the correct one. J> But, a beginner needs a quiet space by himself where he can concentrate on practice. Just so with meditation. It is > useful, as the Buddha suggests, to get off by yourself to meditate. > > Eventually, one can bring a meditative approach to all of their > life. k: Then again about the beginner, do one need quiet space by oneself to meditate. Meditation starts right here and right now even while you are writing to me. Dont wait time or space to do it. Satipatthanas starts in here and now. Please look at MIndfullnes immersed in the body MN119 by TB, look at the paragraph where Buddha describe eating, drinking, chewing etc. Was that in any reference that you must sit on one corner to do mindfullness. Kind regards Ken O > > So, in both playing a musical instrument and in meditation, one > needs to > start off in a different way than one ends up. > > > > k: Another question I always ask pple samadhi meditation, what is > samadhi meditation is it just focusing on one object. Firstly can > mind be control to focus on one object. Secondly if you look at > Samadhi sutta - one would know that actually Samadhi is the every > moment of the six senses. > Samadhi meditation can focus on one object. One can focus on the > breath > nimitta and all the other senses are not in evidence. > > k: Sometimes, pple assert that it is Buddha that encourage sittig > down < foot > of a tree or to an empty place, sits down with his legs crossed, > keeps his body erect and his mindfulness alert.[3]>>. One got to > cross reference with other sutta, in other suttas, going into the > forest is not recommend if one is not well guarded in the senses > etc.. Hence looking at sati sutta one must look cross reference it > with other suttas, pple always disregard the impt words in the > sutta > like "he knows" or "going into the forest", these are impt, they > show > this sutta is not just as simple as just sitting down. > > k: Hence is concentration that is one-pointed is equivalent to > stillness or calmness of mind. Do you think it is possible for > calmess or stillness of mind to eradicated ignorance? > I thought I had already answered that in my previous post. Only > wisdom > eradicates ignorance. > > jack 30348 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Howard Interesting comment. These one thousand monks are fire ascetics and not even Buddha disciples. Definitely this means the panna is just right (accumulated for countless lives) for the right condition to arise. But does panna increase with meditation?. It will be interesting to hear you point of view how does meditation increase panna. Ken O 30349 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Ken O. At no time have I said the jhanas were necessary for enlightenment. jack Hi Jack and (Victor) Hey its me again, I am in a very long winded mood today. So I have the urge again to write something more. Just borrowing some of your time if you dont mind I just read an intersting sutta refer by Swee Boon MN 109 (I am reading the B Bodhi version). In the end, if you see carefully <> - so is there any reference of jhanas here. 30350 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/20/04 11:30:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Interesting comment. These one thousand monks are fire ascetics and > not even Buddha disciples. Definitely this means the panna is just > right (accumulated for countless lives) for the right condition to > arise. But does panna increase with meditation?. It will be > interesting to hear you point of view how does meditation increase > panna. > > Ken O > ===================== See what the Buddha says, Ken. Meditation that leads into the jhanas suppresses the hindrances and makes the mind a malleable, fit tool for investigation of dhammas. And such investigation by the well trained, well controlled mind leads to insights and wisdom, and ultimately to liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30351 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:58am Subject: Sensing Dhamma as they really are ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are five natural laws governing on their own and no one involves in them. These laws are called niyama. These five niyama or natural laws are bija niyama or genetic law, utu niyama or physical law, kamma niyama or kammic law, citta niyama or law of consciousness, and dhamma niyama or law of nature. While these laws are governing on their own and everything is happening because of conditions that favour their arising, no one needs to worry on these matters. What have to concern is that as we all are living beings with a capacity of knowledge and awareness to inside and outside environment, we will have to suffer anything as they arise. These suffering have a cause and all are connected with citta niyama and again by sensible use of this niyama, all these suffering can be wiped out to total extinction and there would be an absolute peace. Suffering have to be realized in due course. The cause of suffering will also be realized at a point and ending them is the goal. To achieve that goal there is the right way, with which no other paths can be comparable as they all will not lead to such blissful state or absolute peace or the state which is totally free of suffering called nibbana. The Path is known as Noble Eightfold Path and there are eight components in that Path. One of eight components is samma-sati or right mindfulness. This mindfulness is not like ordinary mindfulness that arises along with other mind conditions. It has to be meditational mindfulness. Meditation here is not just ordinary sitting meditation but all the way round from first consciousness in waking up in bed till going asleep in bed again. May all being be mindful to their internal and external environments with penetrative wisdom. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] eyesense and heartbase Hi Howard, Larry, Toby and all, When in Bgk I kept in mind Larry's and Howard's questions on heartbase. A. Sujin said: We were wondering how someone can with lobha have the heartbase as object, as said in the Patthana. Yes, when he has understood this rupa with insight. Then he knows what this rupa is. As Toby said, the Buddha taught all these rupas and thus they *can* be directly known. But, it depends on the individual which rupas can be known and realized as they are. A. Sujin also said, not all rupas have to be known for the development of insight. But we can never exclude specific rupas, thinking, they cannot be known. She also mentioned breath that appears as hardness. It depends on someone's accumulated understanding whether he can know breath, a rupa conditioned by citta. The coarse rupas of the seven sense objects appear all the time in daily life. We can begin to understand these when they appear. It is already difficult to understand them as just rupa, a reality that does not know anything, different from nama which is the element that experiences. Gradually we can become used to the characteristics of rupa. We do not have to call hardness anything in order to experience it, its characteristic can be experienced without thinking. op 20-02-2004 00:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Toby, have you experienced this yourself? If yes, would you mind > telling me the sort of meditation practice you follow? Goenka > sensation-oriented > meditation, by any chance? Nina:When we think of rupa, the object is a concept. Thinking is either done with kusala cittas or with akusala cittas. We can think of a concept with right thinking or with wrong thinking. When we try to concentrate on a rupa, we should ask ourselves: is this done with desire? In that case thinking is not a right condition for awareness. We should not have any expectations about which rupas appear, fine or coarse. The Buddha's great disciples also had different degrees of understanding. Detachment is the goal of the development of understanding, from beginning to end. A. Sujin also said: Another point that was stressed: at the Buddha's time there were not so many misunderstandings, and hence not everything needed to be explained in detail. I had not considered this point enough. For example in the Suttas, we read: there is an eye, and there are many suttas about the eye-door. People had no misunderstandings about eyesense, they knew it was a rupa that conditions seeing. We know it is there, because without it we could not see. However, this does not mean that we directly understand its characteristic when it appears to the citta. In a message dated 2/19/04 6:21:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, > torloff87048@y... writes: >> Actually, eyesense can be directly known. Otherwise, as Howard >> points out, on what basis do we call it an ultimate reality? It's >> not enough that Buddha says it is. There has to be a path by which >> it can be known as it is. N: Yes, it can be known. It is among the coarse rupas, but it is difficult to know. We should not select it as an object of insight. Any reality that appears because of conditions can be the object of insight. T: Here is how it can be known and investigated: It is experienced directly as heat in the back of the >> eye during the act of seeing. This heat is the direct experience of >> rupa. N: Heat is one of the three Great Elements that is tangible object. Heat is not the eyesense. When I feel throbbing in the eye, tangible object is experienced, not the eyesense. The throbbing or the heat concerns the "eye of the flesh", different from the infinitesimally tiny rupa in the middle of the black circle that is eyesense. This cannot be seen, it cannot be touched. It arises and then falls away immediately. How could you put a finger on it? T: The connection between this rupa and eye consciousness is >> directly known at some further level of wisdom, when one's mind is >> able to directly grasp the relations between the set of conditions >> present- light, form, eyeconsciousness, and eyesense (as rupa >> experienced as heat while seeing.) N: The second stage of tender insight does not imply knowing all the conditions for each nama or rupa. The main thing is: to know them as conditioned realities, without the need to pinpoint conditions. How could we, insight is not thinking. Eyesense is a condition for seeing, but it is not heat. It originates from kamma, and it is a kind of rupa that is sensitive to colour when this impinges. It is ready for the impact of colour. Capable of receiving colour. T: The same is true of the even more difficult to grasp heart-base: It >> is directly known as heat in the cavity of the heart while citta and >> cetasika are present. This is the reason the heart-base is said to >> be the blood in the cavity of the heart. There is a reference for >> this in the Canon but unfortunately I can't locate it- I think I came >> across it somewhere in Conditional Relations (which does not have an >> index in my edition!). N: In the Visuddhimagga, its tiika, and also in U Narada's Conditional Relations. The heartbase is not experienced as heat. U Narada explains how dosa can cause the flow of the blood, heat, etc. but these are some phenomena caused by dosa. Not the heartbase, this is very subtle and can only be experienced through the mind-door. It is not the blood, it is said that it is near the blood of the heart cavity. But when we hear these words we think immediately about the conventional idea of heart. This does not help us to understand the rupa which is base for many cittas. Nina. 30353 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] eyesense and heartbase Hi, Nina (and Toby) - In a message dated 2/20/04 2:27:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: In the Visuddhimagga, its tiika, and also in U Narada's Conditional > Relations. The heartbase is not experienced as heat. ======================= If heartbase is, indeed, an actual rupa, then, indeed, it is presumably not heat. However, it is said that all rupas either are earth, air, fire, or water, or are derived from them. I wouldn't rule out in advance that heartbase (again presuming it is "for real") is derived from the four great elements with heat weighing heavily as a condition, in which case for someone newly experiencing the previously unexperienced heartbase, it might well seem "heat like". Whenever we experience something new, the mind automatically tries to understand it in terms of what is familiar. (And when we can't do that, we tend to feel confused and perhaps even frightened. This is probably why an initial experience of no-self is so often experienced as frightening, unless one is experiencing it from a "safe" haven of great calm/equanimity.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30354 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Howard (and Nina), Howard: > This is interesting. I won't say that I will accept this on faith (a > sutta reference *would* be a help), but what you write here certainly does > point in the sort of direction I would hope for. > Toby, have you experienced this yourself? If yes, would you mind > telling me the sort of meditation practice you follow? Goenka sensation-oriented > meditation, by any chance? > > My experience of the rupa of eyesense and heartbase is limited. One example from recent meditation is this: I was working on developing the red kasina and reached the point where the learning sign arose. There is no mistaking it- suddenly the rather dim visual image of the kasina retained with the eyes closed becomes every bit as bright and detailed as the image seen with the eyes open. I did not reach the next stage of counterpart sign/absorption, but in reviewing the experience of the learning sign, I perceived not only the visual image but the sensation of "something happening" in the back of my eye. The only sense available for that perception is touch, but it's hard to discern exactly what the touch sensation was-heat, pressure or even hardness are all possible. Also, I can't definitely discern the conditions of this sensation- it could be simply the rupa of eyesense, or it could be other rupa born of consciousness or kamma, or even just temperature born. However, I see no reason why at a sufficiently developed stage of calm and insight, these things could not be directly known. The experience is there, all that's missing is the mind that directly apprehends it as it is. In practicing meditation with mindfulness of feeling or mindfulness of mental phenomenon or (my current favorite) the removal of distracting thoughts (ala MN 19 and 20) I experience a lot of stuff going on in the body, including heat in the vicinity of the heart. There is so much sensation throughout the body that it's hard to say what is what. Much of it is clearly kamma born, but when that calms down I find generally that the sensations tend to be located more and more in the heart area and to be more and more like heat, not pressure or hardness. Once more I can't make the ultimate discernments here, but it's enough to lead me to believe that it's possible to make them (with direct knowledge), and that the end result will be as described in the Canon. I'm curious to know what meditation practice you follow? What success have you had and what difficulties do you encounter? With metta, Toby 30355 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi, Toby - In a message dated 2/20/04 5:20:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Nina), > > Howard: > This is interesting. I won't say that I will accept > this on faith (a > >sutta reference *would* be a help), but what you write here > certainly does > >point in the sort of direction I would hope for. > > Toby, have you experienced this yourself? If yes, would you > mind > >telling me the sort of meditation practice you follow? Goenka > sensation-oriented > >meditation, by any chance? > > > > > > My experience of the rupa of eyesense and heartbase is limited. One > example from recent meditation is this: I was working on developing > the red kasina and reached the point where the learning sign arose. > There is no mistaking it- suddenly the rather dim visual image of the > kasina retained with the eyes closed becomes every bit as bright and > detailed as the image seen with the eyes open. I did not reach the > next stage of counterpart sign/absorption, but in reviewing the > experience of the learning sign, I perceived not only the visual > image but the sensation of "something happening" in the back of my > eye. The only sense available for that perception is touch, but it's > hard to discern exactly what the touch sensation was-heat, pressure > or even hardness are all possible. Also, I can't definitely discern > the conditions of this sensation- it could be simply the rupa of > eyesense, or it could be other rupa born of consciousness or kamma, > or even just temperature born. However, I see no reason why at a > sufficiently developed stage of calm and insight, these things could > not be directly known. The experience is there, all that's missing > is the mind that directly apprehends it as it is. > > In practicing meditation with mindfulness of feeling or mindfulness > of mental phenomenon or (my current favorite) the removal of > distracting thoughts (ala MN 19 and 20) I experience a lot of stuff > going on in the body, including heat in the vicinity of the heart. > There is so much sensation throughout the body that it's hard to say > what is what. Much of it is clearly kamma born, but when that calms > down I find generally that the sensations tend to be located more and > more in the heart area and to be more and more like heat, not > pressure or hardness. Once more I can't make the ultimate > discernments here, but it's enough to lead me to believe that it's > possible to make them (with direct knowledge), and that the end > result will be as described in the Canon. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for these details! -------------------------------------------------- > > I'm curious to know what meditation practice you follow? What > success have you had and what difficulties do you encounter? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I used to do the Goenka body-sweeping meditation on Bodily sensations. For many years I've been meditating on the breath. Most recently I've been experimenting with silent-illumination meditation as Ven Sheng-Yen teaches it, but starting out each session with meditation on the breath, and I rather like this. It is similar to the "natural" meditation I did as a child. My prime hindrance is sloth & torpor - that is, I get sleepy! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > With metta, Toby > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30356 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi again, Toby - Did you pick the red kasina for a particular reason, or do you just like red? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30357 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:03pm Subject: AN VII, 67 Mental Development (1) Hi all, Following is a passage from discourse on development/cultivation (bhavana). Monks, although a monk who does not apply himself to the meditative development of his mind may wish, "Oh, that my mind might be freed from the taints by non-clinging!", yet his mind will not be freed. For what reason? "Because he has not developed his mind," one has to say. Not developed it in what? In the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, the four bases of success, the five spiritual faculties, the five spiritual powers, the seven factors of enlightenment and the Noble Eightfold Path. Suppose, monks, a hen has eight, ten or twelve eggs, but she does not sit on them sufficiently long and they are not well warmed, not developed enough for hatching. Although that hen may wish, "Oh, that my chicks might break the egg shells with their claws and beaks and emerge safely!", yet these chicks will not be able to do so. For what reason? Because the hen did not sit on the eggs sufficiently long, so that they are not well warmed and developed enough for hatching. Similarly is it with a monk who has not applied himself to the meditative development of his mind. * Metta, Victor * Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, p. 192. 30358 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Howard: "The Vsm may say what it says about this matter, but there is nothing in the sutta itself that gives the slightest suggestion that distinguishing nama from rupa is involved." Hi Howard, I agree. The sutta doesn't explain the stages it mentions. One point: the knowledge of nama and rupa isn't so much about distinguishing nama from rupa as it is about the composite nature of nama and the composite nature of rupa. What initially appears as one is seen to be (experienced as) many. This is a glimpse of anatta. Of course distinguishing nama from rupa is a preliminary stage of this process. Larry 30359 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:55pm Subject: SN I Sagaathaavagga 5 Bhikhunisamyutta 10 Vajiraa Dear Group, From the Samyutta Nikaya study corner: SN I Sagaathaavagga 5 Bhikhunisamyutta 10 Vajiraa "At Saavatthi. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Vajiraa dressed and, taking bowl and robe, entered Saavathi for alms. When she had walked for alms in Saavatthi and had returned from her alms round, after her meal she went to the Blind Men's Grove for the day's abiding. Having plunged into the Blind Men's Grove, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding. Then Maara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhunii Vajiraa, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse: "By whom has this being been created? Where is the maker of the being? Where has the being arisen? Where does the being cease?" Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Vajiraa: "Now who is this that recited the verse - a human being or a nonhuman being?" Then it occurred to her: "This is Maara the Evil One, who has recited the verse desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in me, desiring to make me fall away from concentration." Then the bhikkhuni Vajiraa, having understood, "This is Maara the Evil One," replied in verses: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Maara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations: Here no being is found. "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, There is the convention 'a being.' "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." Then Maara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhuni Vajiraa knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30360 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Howard, > The fact that the Buddha discussed the five khandhas, done as a > skillful means to induce nongrasping (of what arises) as me and > mine, is far different from his having put forward the > distinguishing of mental from physical as an allegedly major > step towards enlightenment. If such distinguishing were a major > step, then we would all be well on our way! I totally disagree. If distinguishing of mental from physical is not a major step towards enlightenment, why did the Buddha separate form from the rest? If you noticed my quotes, feeling, perception, consciousness and fabrications each has six classes, but not form. The very simply fact is that the Buddha broke down nama into four other aggregates for the purpose of better understanding the mind. The distinguishing of rupa from nama is implied evidently throughout his teachings. And you could be nearer to nibbana than you might think. Regards Swee Boon 30361 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Study - Recognizing the Dhamma (1) Hello Victor, and all, I think this is a good idea - I'm glad you chose the Recognizing the Dhamma, I had printed it off to read a few months ago but didn't get around to it. Looking forward, metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is the first part (title, contents, and introduction) of the > study guide on recognizing the Dhamma: > > > Recognizing the Dhamma > A Study Guide > Prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > ----------- > > Contents > Introduction > The Eight Principles > 1. Dispassion > 2. Being Unfettered > 3. Shedding > 4. Modesty > 5. Contentment > 6. Seclusion > 7. Persistence > 8. Being Unburdensome > > > Introduction > Shortly after her ordination, the Buddha's step-mother, Mahapajapati > Gotami, asked him for a short Dhamma-instruction that would guide > her in her solitary practice. He responded with eight principles for > recognizing what qualifies as Dhamma and Vinaya, and what does not. > The commentary tells us that after her instruction, Mahapajapati > Gotami in no long time became an arahant. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html > > Metta, > Victor 30362 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hello KenH, KenH: Some people in dsg are making that same mistake: In my opinion, anyone who thinks there are no paramattha dhammas (with their own sabhava) must believe that, ultimately, nothing exists. Michael: Both views are incorrect. That dhammas truly exist (paramatha) and that they do not exist. Those are extreme views rejected by the Buddha. His view was co-dependent arising which rejects the extremes of existence and non-existence. Metta Michael 30363 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Howard k: If one look at Visud, the conditions for one to meditate is quite a tall order, the monastary conditions, the individual criteria. To me meditation is not for the beginners who do not have a certain level of panna or right understanding. I am not doubting meditation but I am doubting the premises/motivation when one started meditation. Meditation in Buddhism is always with panna as without panna, meditation will not eradicate the kilesa, it will only suppress the five hindrances. Hence in many suttas after the jhanas then Buddha start describing the attaining of past lives, divine eye and the knowledge. Earlier I quoted the sati sutta about or sometimes it is translated as discernment, these are tell tale signs that meditation in Buddhism is always with panna and not just simply concentration meditation. I am just concern when people start meditation because meditation can be very enticing, the sense of calm experience can be very alluring and this might result in lobha rather than panna. I dont discourage nor encourage anyone in meditation, my personal feelings is that it is not for beginners. My hunch is that it should be for those who are ready for to reach stream entrant, I got this hunch from Anapanasati sutta where Buddha describe the community of monks before proceeding with the sutta. Ken O 30364 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Michael. > Michael: > > Both views are incorrect. That dhammas truly exist (paramatha) and > that they do not exist. Those are extreme views rejected by the > Buddha. His view was co-dependent arising which rejects the > extremes of existence and non-existence. k: I think you don't have the correct idea what are the extreme existence of existence. When we say dhammas truly exist it does not mean this dhamma exist for eternality or exist on its own or uncaused. Eternality is an extreme view. Things exist, can u say Anatta don't exist. Maybe you would like to tell me whether anatta exist or not. Even it is conditional, it still exists. If one claim that even conditional does not exist, then do you think this is the other extreme of existence where nothing exists. Ken O 30365 From: Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/20/04 8:16:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >The fact that the Buddha discussed the five khandhas, done as a > >skillful means to induce nongrasping (of what arises) as me and > >mine, is far different from his having put forward the > >distinguishing of mental from physical as an allegedly major > >step towards enlightenment. If such distinguishing were a major > >step, then we would all be well on our way! > > I totally disagree. > > If distinguishing of mental from physical is not a major step > towards enlightenment, why did the Buddha separate form from the > rest? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's a straightforward matter: It's because rupa is quite different from the rest, whereas all the rest are of the same sort - they are mental. He broke up phenomena into reasonable groupings that fit the facts. -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you noticed my quotes, feeling, perception, consciousness and > fabrications each has six classes, but not form. The very simply fact > is that the Buddha broke down nama into four other aggregates for the > purpose of better understanding the mind. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mind is more complex, and for purposes of liberation, more important. Of course he did break down rupa as well - into five classes: earth, air, fire, water, and the derived rupa. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > The distinguishing of rupa from nama is implied evidently throughout > his teachings. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why wouldn't it be? It is an obvious fact. -------------------------------------------------------------- And you could be nearer to nibbana than you might > > think. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep, and if horses had wings, well - watch out below! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------- > Regards > Swee Boon > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30366 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:57pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Study - Recognizing the Dhamma (1) Hi Christine and all, Thank you for your encouragement. I am glad that you consider it a good idea. Using the study guides for online group study is a new endeavor to me. So it is at a stage of experimentation. I will paste the section on the Eight Principles on recognizing the Dhamma. Feedback and suggestions are welcome! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > I think this is a good idea - I'm glad you chose the Recognizing the > Dhamma, I had printed it off to read a few months ago but didn't get > around to it. Looking forward, > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Here is the first part (title, contents, and introduction) of the > > study guide on recognizing the Dhamma: > > > > > > Recognizing the Dhamma > > A Study Guide > > Prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- > - > > ----------- > > > > Contents > > Introduction > > The Eight Principles > > 1. Dispassion > > 2. Being Unfettered > > 3. Shedding > > 4. Modesty > > 5. Contentment > > 6. Seclusion > > 7. Persistence > > 8. Being Unburdensome > > > > > Introduction > > Shortly after her ordination, the Buddha's step-mother, > Mahapajapati > > Gotami, asked him for a short Dhamma-instruction that would guide > > her in her solitary practice. He responded with eight principles > for > > recognizing what qualifies as Dhamma and Vinaya, and what does not. > > The commentary tells us that after her instruction, Mahapajapati > > Gotami in no long time became an arahant. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html > > > > Metta, > > Victor 30367 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:02pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles The Eight Principles I have heard that at on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest. Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there she said to him: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute." "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted at his words. [AN VIII.53] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles 30368 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:25pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hello Victor, and All, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' ... doesn't that have a stirring ring to it - almost like a Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! The Dhamma, in this instance, means the Doctrine, doesn't it? That would include everything in the Tipitaka? And the Vinaya means the Discipline. Does this just mean the official rules for the Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis? I wonder, then, about lay people. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > The Eight Principles > > I have heard that at on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at > Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest. > > Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing > there she said to him: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the > Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, > ardent, & resolute." > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > to dispassion, not to passion; > to being unfettered, not to being fettered; > to shedding, not to accumulating; > to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; > to contentment, not to discontent; > to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; > to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, > this is the Teacher's instruction.'" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami > delighted at his words. > > > [AN VIII.53] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles 30369 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken O. --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > I just read an intersting sutta refer by Swee Boon MN 109 (I am > reading the B Bodhi version). In the end, if you see carefully > < minds of sixty bhikkhus were liberated from the taints>> .... Thx for your and Swee Boon's quotes. .... > > Then again in end of the Fire Sermon SN XXXV.28 sutta. < his utterance, the hearts of thousand bhikkhus were liberated through > clinging no more.>> (this is using TB version as I do not know how to > locate this sutta in Bodhi version) There is no jhanas mention at > all in this sutta, so do one need jhanas to gain enlightement ;-). .... BB transl v.similar: see 35:28 (6) Burning, p1143 "This is what the blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus delighted in the blessed One's statement. *And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the thousand bhikkhus were liberated from the taints by nonclinging." .... > I hope this is the last one I type today so not to bore you too much > details .... I'm sure no one would ever find your posts boring, Ken O....(they might not agree, but not boring;-)). Oops, students arriving... Metta, Sarah ====== 30370 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 0:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Ken O. > > At no time have I said the jhanas were necessary for enlightenment. > > jack k: Then why do you meditate for ;-). Ken O 30371 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hello Michael, When I wrote: -------------- >> Some people in dsg are making that same mistake: In my opinion, anyone who thinks there are no paramattha dhammas (with their own sabhava) must believe that, ultimately, nothing exists.>> -------------- You responded: ---------------- > Both views are incorrect. That dhammas truly exist (paramatha) and that they do not exist. Those are extreme views rejected by the Buddha. His view was co-dependent arising which rejects the extremes of existence and non-existence. > ----------------- When the Buddha taught about dhammas -- wrong view, for example -- he was talking about things that are real (paramattha). Some dhammas (like wrong view) are not universal. And so it could be said that sometimes, wrong view exists at other times wrong view does not exist. The same cannot be said about non-dhammas, for example, a flying purple elephant. It would be facile to say that a flying purple elephant does not exist -- as if it ever does! Ultimately, a self is just as fanciful as a flying purple elephant. Unlike a [non-universal] cetasika, it can't be said, sensibly, that a self either exists or that it does not exist. When we do think "a self exists," or, "a self does not exist" the one thing that certainly exists is wrong view :-) So, don't confuse dhammas with non-dhammas. Although individual types of dhammas (ditthi, for example) sometimes exist, sometimes do not exist; there are always dhammas of some kind. It is absurd to say the Buddha did not teach, "Dhammas do exist." Absurd or not, the idea is occasionally canvassed by some thinkers. And so there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha was specifically asked, "Do dhammas really exist?" Robert K has quoted this sutta to you. I am too disorganised to find it now, but, to summarise it very briefly, the Buddha categorically said he was one of those wise thinkers who say, "Dhammas do exist." Kind regards, Ken H 30372 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:20am Subject: The Commentaries in Memoriam... Friends: "I believe there to be a increasingly aware understanding of that the Buddha-Dhamma of the Pali Canon is so deep, subtle, precise, comprehensive & systematic, that it is not as easy to grasp, as often initially imagined... It is true that the Pali words can be translated, yet what they might mean in this or that context, can best be elucidated by utilizing the ancient commentaries and their accurate, exhaustive & thorough method of explanation... The Pali Canon & the Commentaries are thus an interdependent Pair! The latter is the essential & only prevailing tool for understanding -as exact as possibly can be- of the former... Together they form an ordered whole, to guide Humanity in its quest for Independence and the Perfection of Freedom..." --oo0oo-- Miss Isabel Blew Horner (1896-1981), President of the Pali Text Society 1959-81. Author of over 200 works on Buddhism. A western pioneer & promoter of Buddhist study. In the 'Clarifier of Sweet Meaning' The Buddha-Vamsa commentary. For English translations of the Pali Canon: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/frontpage.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 30373 From: Sarah Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:01am Subject: Scholars & Meditators (was: the self... how?/sacca) Hi Howard (Ken H & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Ken (and Andrew) - > > In a message dated 2/19/04 9:26:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > K:> > Your concerns (about choice of language) remind me of a message from > > Rob M, in which he apologised for any offence he might have caused > > the non-meditators. That was significant, I think. We know, only > > too well, that by extolling the virtues of listening, considering > > and discussing (Dhamma-study), we inevitably dispute the efficacy of > > formal practice (that is, we risk offending the meditators). > > However, as Rob implied, the reverse is also true: whenever a > > Buddhist extols formal practice, he denigrates study. > > > ============================ H:> With regard to the foregoing, and my comment that there need not > be a > strict choice of one or the other, the following article may be of > relevance: > http://www.dhammatimes.com/wisetalk/2004/01/040118-scholars-meditators.htm .... S: Very relevant, Howard and with regard to this sutta and more detail on Scholars and Meditators in this context, I included some commentary detail in this old post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7421 Metta, Sarah ====== 30374 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: Catching Anger Hi Htoo Naing, > What are Pali equivalents for > > 1. Constructing the Aggregates > 2. Constructing a Self > 3. Constructing ther Path > 4. Deconstruction > > that are discribed in the link you made that is at accesstoinsight. I know very little Pali, so I don't think I am of help here. > Could you explain more on five means of propagation 1. root, 2. > stem, 3. joint, 4. cutting, 5. seed-propagation? From what I read, I don't think the Buddha is emphasizing on these means of plant/tree propagation. You may read more about these in gardening or horticulture books. What the Buddha means is that (using an example) if a good mango seed has no footing(soil/earth) and is not watered, that seed would not propagate(grow into a healthy mango tree). Regards Swee Boon 30375 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi, Ken (and Michael) - In a message dated 2/21/04 5:30:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hello Michael, > > When I wrote: > -------------- > >>Some people in dsg are making that same mistake: In my opinion, > anyone who thinks there are no paramattha dhammas (with their own > sabhava) must believe that, ultimately, nothing exists.>> > -------------- > > You responded: > ---------------- > >Both views are incorrect. That dhammas truly exist (paramatha) and > that they do not exist. Those are extreme views rejected by the > Buddha. His view was co-dependent arising which rejects the extremes > of existence and non-existence. > > ----------------- > > When the Buddha taught about dhammas -- wrong view, for example -- > he was talking about things that are real (paramattha). Some > dhammas (like wrong view) are not universal. And so it could be said > that sometimes, wrong view exists at other times wrong view does not > exist. > > The same cannot be said about non-dhammas, for example, a flying > purple elephant. It would be facile to say that a flying purple > elephant does not exist -- as if it ever does! > > Ultimately, a self is just as fanciful as a flying purple elephant. > Unlike a [non-universal] cetasika, it can't be said, sensibly, that > a self either exists or that it does not exist. > > When we do think "a self exists," or, "a self does not exist" the > one thing that certainly exists is wrong view :-) > > So, don't confuse dhammas with non-dhammas. Although individual > types of dhammas (ditthi, for example) sometimes exist, sometimes do > not exist; there are always dhammas of some kind. It is absurd to > say the Buddha did not teach, "Dhammas do exist." > > Absurd or not, the idea is occasionally canvassed by some thinkers. > And so there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha was > specifically asked, "Do dhammas really exist?" Robert K has quoted > this sutta to you. I am too disorganised to find it now, but, to > summarise it very briefly, the Buddha categorically said he was one > of those wise thinkers who say, "Dhammas do exist." > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================== There is so much bandwidth being taken up on what I think are differences in language use instead of substance. I wonder what Michael's reaction would be to language of the form "Dhammas occur when needed conditions have occurred, and in complete dependence on those conditions" as opposed to "Dhammas exist." When Nagarjuna used the word 'exists' he seems to mean "is a true, separate, self-supporting entity," and when he used the terminology 'does not exist' he seems to mean "does not exist in any sense whatsoever, is a complete nullity, and never occurs". In other words, 'exists' and 'does not exist' are not mere negations as used by Nagarjuna, but are diametrical opposites. He then goes on to say that the Buddha's ontological middle way is neither of these extremes, but is along the lines expressed in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. If I'm not mistaken, Michael is accepting this definitional perspective, whereas you and others here, Ken, are not. (When I use the word 'exists' I don't mean unconditional, substantive self-existence either. For that I would add some additional adjectives. I do find myself wary, however, of using the word 'exists' at all, and I tend to use 'arises' or 'occurs' or 'appears' instead in order to avoid even the odor of atta view.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30376 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/21/04 2:31:39 AM Central Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Ken O. > > At no time have I said the jhanas were necessary for enlightenment. > > jack k: Then why do you meditate for ;-). Ken O, Your question mystifies me. I meditate to reduce suffering in myself and others. jack 30377 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack This is very interesting, to my understanding most pple meditate to reach jhanas as it provide a support to suppress the five hindrances to reach enlightement. To my reading of Howard mail <> meditation is a lead factor of jhanas then eventually to wisdom. As for your case, you said to reduce suffering? Then how does meditation reduce suffering? Then again how does meditation increase panna in your case? How does meditation reduces other suffering? Do you mean the aggregates of others suffering can be reduce by your aggregates? Or do you mean you can borne other pple's kamma. Ken O 30378 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:37am Subject: Points of Controversy Hello All, I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu" and started to read Book I on the Existence of a Personal Entity. I came across a note on page 54 which has caught my attention, and maybe someone would care to confirm whether my reading is correct. The question placed by the Theravadin and the note reads as follows: [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact - is the person conditioned? The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions. My understanding is that a conditioned thing is the opposite of a self dependent thing, i.e. a conditioned thing exists by virtue of internal and external conditions, and apart from those conditions it is impossible for that thing to exist, while a self dependent thing is something that does not depend on conditions but depends on something intrinsic to it for its existence. My reading of the note is that a real and ultimate fact is a self dependent fact, i.e. not subject to conditions. Any comments? Metta Michael 30379 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hello Howard, I fully concur with what you are saying. Tks. for explaining it so clearly. Sometimes I am lost for words. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi, Ken (and Michael) - In a message dated 2/21/04 5:30:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hello Michael, > > When I wrote: > -------------- > >>Some people in dsg are making that same mistake: In my opinion, > anyone who thinks there are no paramattha dhammas (with their own > sabhava) must believe that, ultimately, nothing exists.>> > -------------- > > You responded: > ---------------- > >Both views are incorrect. That dhammas truly exist (paramatha) and > that they do not exist. Those are extreme views rejected by the > Buddha. His view was co-dependent arising which rejects the extremes > of existence and non-existence. > > ----------------- > > When the Buddha taught about dhammas -- wrong view, for example -- > he was talking about things that are real (paramattha). Some > dhammas (like wrong view) are not universal. And so it could be said > that sometimes, wrong view exists at other times wrong view does not > exist. > > The same cannot be said about non-dhammas, for example, a flying > purple elephant. It would be facile to say that a flying purple > elephant does not exist -- as if it ever does! > > Ultimately, a self is just as fanciful as a flying purple elephant. > Unlike a [non-universal] cetasika, it can't be said, sensibly, that > a self either exists or that it does not exist. > > When we do think "a self exists," or, "a self does not exist" the > one thing that certainly exists is wrong view :-) > > So, don't confuse dhammas with non-dhammas. Although individual > types of dhammas (ditthi, for example) sometimes exist, sometimes do > not exist; there are always dhammas of some kind. It is absurd to > say the Buddha did not teach, "Dhammas do exist." > > Absurd or not, the idea is occasionally canvassed by some thinkers. > And so there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha was > specifically asked, "Do dhammas really exist?" Robert K has quoted > this sutta to you. I am too disorganised to find it now, but, to > summarise it very briefly, the Buddha categorically said he was one > of those wise thinkers who say, "Dhammas do exist." > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================== There is so much bandwidth being taken up on what I think are differences in language use instead of substance. I wonder what Michael's reaction would be to language of the form "Dhammas occur when needed conditions have occurred, and in complete dependence on those conditions" as opposed to "Dhammas exist." When Nagarjuna used the word 'exists' he seems to mean "is a true, separate, self-supporting entity," and when he used the terminology 'does not exist' he seems to mean "does not exist in any sense whatsoever, is a complete nullity, and never occurs". In other words, 'exists' and 'does not exist' are not mere negations as used by Nagarjuna, but are diametrical opposites. He then goes on to say that the Buddha's ontological middle way is neither of these extremes, but is along the lines expressed in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. If I'm not mistaken, Michael is accepting this definitional perspective, whereas you and others here, Ken, are not. (When I use the word 'exists' I don't mean unconditional, substantive self-existence either. For that I would add some additional adjectives. I do find myself wary, however, of using the word 'exists' at all, and I tend to use 'arises' or 'occurs' or 'appears' instead in order to avoid even the odor of atta view.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30380 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/21/04 10:34:31 AM Central Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: This is very interesting, to my understanding most pple meditate to reach jhanas as it provide a support to suppress the five hindrances to reach enlightement. To my reading of Howard mail <> meditation is a lead factor of jhanas then eventually to wisdom. As for your case, you said to reduce suffering? Then how does meditation reduce suffering? Then again how does meditation increase panna in your case? ken o, Some people go right to vipassana/wisdom without jhana work. I would guess that more than 1/2 of meditators never do jhana work. In my and most senior Buddhist teacher's view, jhanas are not necessary but helpful for insight/wisdom. In any case, I have never said that jhanas are necessary for enlightenment. Meditation slows events down in a protected environment so I can start to see all phenomena is temporary, not self and unsatisfactory. I have yet to meet anyone or hear about anyone who can even start this clear seeing without formal meditation. This is the wisdom that alleviates suffering. Just talking about wisdom is worthless in itself. How does meditation reduces other suffering? Do you mean the aggregates of others suffering can be reduce by your aggregates? Or do you mean you can borne other pple's kamma. Ken O If I see clearly, I show compassion and loving kindness toward others. This reduces their suffering. jack 30381 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/21/04 12:41:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Hello All, > > > > I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu" and > started to read Book I on the Existence of a Personal Entity. I came across a > note on page 54 which has caught my attention, and maybe someone would care to > confirm whether my reading is correct. The question placed by the Theravadin > and the note reads as follows: > > > > > > [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact > - is the person conditioned? > > The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature > of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned > (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by > something else, made, has come together by conditions. > > > > > > My understanding is that a conditioned thing is the opposite of a self > dependent thing, i.e. a conditioned thing exists by virtue of internal and > external conditions, and apart from those conditions it is impossible for that thing > to exist, while a self dependent thing is something that does not depend on > conditions but depends on something intrinsic to it for its existence. > > My reading of the note is that a real and ultimate fact is a self dependent > fact, i.e. not subject to conditions. Any comments? > > > > Metta > > Michael > > ============================ You quote the following: ________________________ [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact - is the person conditioned? ------------------------------------------ This item seems to be a lead-in by Moggaliputta Tissa in which he is criticizing the position that takes a person to be an actuality (a "real and ultimate fact"). He is beginning the criticism by asking whether or not such a person could be conditioned. That sounds very much like something Nagarjuna might do, with the idea of pointing out that what is conditioned is not a self-existent reality. (Of course, I don't see the full context here.) You then go on to say the following: _______________________ The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions. ------------------------------------------ It seems to me that the note asserts that Moggaliputta Tissa is saying that the party he is addressing is speaking of a person as 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact', and he (Moggaliputta Tissa) goes on to question whether such a "person" could be conditioned precisely because, as per commentary, "Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions." I see the point of the note being that to have been prepared, brought about by something else, made, and come together by conditions is incompatible with being a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact. An unexpressed, but I think very important, fact in all this is that all schools of Buddhism accepted that nothing is unconditioned except for nibbana (and, for some schools, space), and, thus, a person, if it is anything at all, must be conditioned. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30382 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Dear Swee Boon, I had been thinking of what sutta supports the fact that nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa. But here you say it very clearly! Thank you. In Bgk A.Sujin stressed that we should not see the khandhas as groups but as realities, dhammas. They arise and fall away. Nina. op 20-02-2004 13:32 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: >> If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the >> first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known >> as nama and rupa as rupa, what are other discourses that support the >> claim, and how? > > Actually, this claim is all over the suttas. What is the point of > classifying the five aggregates as form, consciousness, perception, > feelings and fabrications? > > If one can't even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, how > could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right? 30383 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Study - Recognizing the Dhamma (1) Hi Victor, I like the intro and the stories referred to, but I have no time to go to the link. Did you write the intro? Thank you. Nina. op 20-02-2004 16:14 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Hi all, > > Here is the first part (title, contents, and introduction) of the > study guide on recognizing the Dhamma: > 30384 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Nina (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/21/04 3:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Swee Boon, > I had been thinking of what sutta supports the fact that nama has to be > known as nama and rupa as rupa. But here you say it very clearly! Thank you. > In Bgk A.Sujin stressed that we should not see the khandhas as groups but as > realities, dhammas. They arise and fall away. > Nina. > op 20-02-2004 13:32 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > >>If this particular discourse does not support the claim that the > >>first sign of right understanding comes when nama is directly known > >>as nama and rupa as rupa, what are other discourses that support the > >>claim, and how? > > > >Actually, this claim is all over the suttas. What is the point of > >classifying the five aggregates as form, consciousness, perception, > >feelings and fabrications? > > > >If one can't even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, how > >could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right? > > > > ============================= If a biologist wrote a book about trees, s/he would, no doubt, point out the various parts of a tree and their functions - the trunk (consisting of bark, inner wood, and heartwood), the root system, the branches, and the leaves. But by so doing his/her point would not be to teach people to see the trunk as trunk and to distinguish it from the rest. Everybody who is sighted can see and distinguish these parts. This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). The point of detailing all the khandhas is, as I see it, to emphasize their impersonality so that one is pointed in the direction of seeing that nothing that is actually observed is me or mine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30385 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello Howard, Howard: It seems to me that the note asserts that Moggaliputta Tissa is saying that the party he is addressing is speaking of a person as 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact', and he (Moggaliputta Tissa) goes on to question whether such a "person" could be conditioned precisely because, as per commentary, "Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions." I see the point of the note being that to have been prepared, brought about by something else, made, and come together by conditions is incompatible with being a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact. An unexpressed, but I think very important, fact in all this is that all schools of Buddhism accepted that nothing is unconditioned except for nibbana (and, for some schools, space), and, thus, a person, if it is anything at all, must be conditioned. Michael: As I can see you agree with my interpretation of the note that conditionality is incompatible with a real and ultimate fact. And as you rightly say, all schools of Buddhism accept conditionality. Therefore the logical conclusion is that a real and ultimate fact cannot be accepted by any school of Buddhism. I wonder what Sarah, Jon, KenH, KenO and RobertK would say about this understanding. BTW: real and ultimate fact is the equivalent of saccikattha paramattha in Pali. Metta Michael 30386 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:39pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Christine, I think I get your point regarding 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' having a stirring ring to it. Recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction is an affirming experience, if not without a sense of conviction and joy. I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' and `Vinaya' as `(Ethical) Conduct.' The Principle is the principle on dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. The meaning of `conduct' is not limited to the rules of conduct for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis as codified in the vinaya pitaka as the Buddha taught ethical conduct not only to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis but also to lay people. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and All, > > 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, > this is the Teacher's instruction' ... doesn't that have a stirring > ring to it - almost like a Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! > The Dhamma, in this instance, means the Doctrine, doesn't it? That > would include everything in the Tipitaka? And the Vinaya means the > Discipline. Does this just mean the official rules for the Bhikkhus > and Bhikkhunis? I wonder, then, about lay people. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > [snip] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles 30387 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Study - Recognizing the Dhamma (1) Hi Nina, No, I did not write the intro. The introduction is written by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Feedback and suggestions are welcome. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, I like the intro and the stories referred to, but I have no time > to go to the link. Did you write the intro? > Thank you. > Nina. > op 20-02-2004 16:14 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > > Hi all, > > > > Here is the first part (title, contents, and introduction) of the > > study guide on recognizing the Dhamma: > > 30388 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/21/04 4:13:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > I see the point of the note being that to have been prepared, brought about > by > > something else, made, and come together by conditions is incompatible with > being > > a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact. An unexpressed, but I think > > very important, fact in all this is that all schools of Buddhism accepted > that > > nothing is unconditioned except for nibbana (and, for some schools, space), > and, > > thus, a person, if it is anything at all, must be conditioned. > > > > Michael: > > As I can see you agree with my interpretation of the note that > conditionality is incompatible with a real and ultimate fact. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, provided that, as in the note, "real and ultimate" is considered synonymous with "self-dependent". On the other hand, if one takes "real and ultimate" to just mean "actually observed (rather than imagined or merely imputed on the basis of other things)", then I would *not* take that to be at all incompatible with being conditioned. In the particular case we are discussing, it would seem that both Moggaliputta Tissa and the writer of the note give "real and ultimate" the first meaning (as would Nagarjuna). ------------------------------------------------- And as you rightly say, all schools of Buddhism accept conditionality. Therefore > the logical conclusion is that a real and ultimate fact cannot be > accepted by any school of Buddhism. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not in the first sense of "real and ultimate" (as "self-dependent"), but it certainly can be accepted in the second sense. ------------------------------------------------ I wonder what Sarah, Jon, KenH, KenO and RobertK would say about this > > understanding.BTW: real and ultimate fact is the equivalent of saccikattha > paramattha in Pali. > > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I couldn't find that word in the PTS dictionary or in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. But in any case, I have no doubt that these folks you mention all accept the second interpretation I gave of "real and ultimate", and not the first. And they all believe, as far as I know, that anything that is actually observed, actually occurs, actually appears, and is not merely imagined or imputed on the basis of other things, is conditioned, is dependent, and is not self-existent. ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30389 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:07pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hello Victor, and all, O.K. - I'm happy with that definition :-) Post the next excerpts whenever you're ready - people will pop in, or not, as inspiration takes them, that is if the Samyutta study corner and the Visuddhimagga study corner is anything to go by. :-) From Nyanatiloka's dictionary: "dhamma: lit. the 'bearer', constitution (or nature of a thing), norm, law (jus), doctrine; justice, righteousness; quality; thing, object of mind (s. áyatana) 'phenomenon'. In all these meanings the word 'dhamma' is to be met with in the texts. The Com. to D. instances 4 applications of this term guna (quality, virtue), desaná (instruction), pariyatti (text), nijjívatá (soullessness, e.g. "all dhammá, phenomena, are impersonal," etc.). The Com. to Dhs. has hetu (condition) instead of desaná. Thus, the analytical knowledge of the law (s. patisambhidá) is explained in Vis.M. XIV. and in Vibh. as hetumhi-ñána, knowledge of the conditions. The Dhamma, as the liberating law discovered and proclaimed by the Buddha, is summed up in the 4 Noble Truths (s. sacca). It forms one of the 3 Gems (ti-ratana, q.v.) and one of the 10 recollections (anussati q.v.). Dhamma, as object of mind (dhammáyatana, s. áyatana) may be anything past, present or future, corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. sankhára, 4), real or imaginary." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_d.htm And putting 'dhamma' in the first search area of the pali-english dictionary, comes up with five choices - the first of which contains a few pages of meanings, at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' and `Vinaya' > as `(Ethical) Conduct.' The Principle is the principle on dukkha > and the cessation of dukkha. The meaning of `conduct' is not > limited to the rules of conduct for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis as > codified in the vinaya pitaka as the Buddha taught ethical conduct > not only to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis but also to lay people. > > Metta, > Victor > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles 30390 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Christine, That is great! Thank you for providing the definitions from Nyanatiloka's dictionary. I will post the next excerpt on the dispassion. Metta Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > O.K. - I'm happy with that definition :-) Post the next excerpts > whenever you're ready - people will pop in, or not, as inspiration > takes them, that is if the Samyutta study corner and the > Visuddhimagga study corner is anything to go by. :-) > > From Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > > "dhamma: lit. the 'bearer', constitution (or nature of a thing), > norm, law (jus), doctrine; justice, righteousness; quality; thing, > object of mind (s. áyatana) 'phenomenon'. In all these meanings the > word 'dhamma' is to be met with in the texts. The Com. to D. > instances 4 applications of this term guna (quality, virtue), desaná > (instruction), pariyatti (text), nijjívatá (soullessness, e.g. "all > dhammá, phenomena, are impersonal," etc.). The Com. to Dhs. has hetu > (condition) instead of desaná. Thus, the analytical knowledge of the > law (s. patisambhidá) is explained in Vis.M. XIV. and in Vibh. as > hetumhi-ñána, knowledge of the conditions. > > The Dhamma, as the liberating law discovered and proclaimed by the > Buddha, is summed up in the 4 Noble Truths (s. sacca). It forms one > of the 3 Gems (ti-ratana, q.v.) and one of the 10 recollections > (anussati q.v.). > > Dhamma, as object of mind (dhammáyatana, s. áyatana) may be anything > past, present or future, corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. > sankhára, 4), real or imaginary." > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_d.htm > > And putting 'dhamma' in the first search area of the pali-english > dictionary, comes up with five choices - the first of which contains > a few pages of meanings, at: > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' and `Vinaya' > > as `(Ethical) Conduct.' The Principle is the principle on dukkha > > and the cessation of dukkha. The meaning of `conduct' is not > > limited to the rules of conduct for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis as > > codified in the vinaya pitaka as the Buddha taught ethical conduct > > not only to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis but also to lay people. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles 30391 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:41pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) 1. Dispassion § 1.1. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Gaya, at Gaya Head, with 1,000 monks. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither- pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... "The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor- pain -- that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. "Seeing thus, the instructed noble disciple grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. "He grows disenchanted with the ear... "He grows disenchanted with the nose... "He grows disenchanted with the tongue... "He grows disenchanted with the body... "He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the 1,000 monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion 30392 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello Howard: Howard: Yes, provided that, as in the note, "real and ultimate" is considered synonymous with "self-dependent". On the other hand, if one takes "real and ultimate" to just mean "actually observed (rather than imagined or merely imputed on the basis of other things)", then I would *not* take that to be at all incompatible with being conditioned. In the particular case we are discussing, it would seem that both Moggaliputta Tissa and the writer of the note give "real and ultimate" the first meaning (as would Nagarjuna). Michael: Maybe it wasn't clear from my message but the interpretation that real and ultimate means self dependent comes from the commentary to the Kathavatthu, therefore I assume this is the 'official' interpretation for the meaning of real and ultimate. In respect of your second interpretation, that would be a nice way of accommodating conditionality with real and ultimate but that is not what the commentary says. Howard: And they all believe, as far as I know, that anything that is actually observed, actually occurs, actually appears, and is not merely imagined or imputed on the basis of other things, is conditioned, is dependent, and is not self-existent. Michael: I don't understand why something that is imagined, which is the same as a thought or mental object, would also not be conditioned. Why only the product of contact with the other five sense media is considered to be conditionally arisen and not the contact with the mind? I don't understand what you mean by 'imputed on the basis of other things'. Metta Michael 30393 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello Michael and Howard, The wonders of pali :-) Sometimes there are variations in spelling and also of punctuation. I think the meaning you are looking for is in the PTS definition below .. saccik' attha. "Saccika (p. 668) (adj.) [cp. Sk. satyaka] real, true Miln 226 (the same passage at Ps I.174 & Nd1 458 spells sacchika). <-> saccik' attha truth, reality, the highest truth Kvu 1 sq.; DhsA 4 (nearly=paramattha); KhA 102." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30394 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hello Victor and all, This sutta also fits in with the Samyutta study corner, and also with the Vinaya. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note about its origination, which is below: BB: "This sutta, often called "The Fire Sermon", is the third discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry at Vin I 34-35. According to this source, the thousand bhikkus were former jatila (matted-hair) ascetics under the leadership of the three Kassapa brothers. The Buddha had converted them by a series of miracles, after which he preached the present sermon. The sermon gains special meaning from the fact that before their conversion these ascetics had been devoted to the fire sacrifice. The full account is at Vin I 24-34; see Naanamoli, 'Life of the Buddha', pp. 54-60, 64-69. Spk: Having led the thousand bhikkhus to Gayaa's Head, the Blessed One reflected, "What kind of Dhamma talk would be suitable for them?" He then realized, "In the past they worshipped the fire morning and evening. I will teach them that the twelve sense bases are burning and blazing. In this way they will be able to attain arahantship." In this sutta the characteristic of suffering is discussed." This sutta fits in very well with the heat wave we are having in S.E. Queensland. 42 Celsius yesterday - and my aircon isn't working :-) Dog and I hopped in the airconditioned car and went to visit my Mum in her airconditioned home. Today has the same prediction. Are you chaps any cooler up round Cooran? (KenH, Andrew, Steve) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > 1. Dispassion > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion 30395 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Howard and Michael, Howard wrote: -------------- > I wonder what Michael's reaction would be to language of the form "Dhammas occur when needed conditions have occurred, and in complete dependence on those conditions" as opposed to "Dhammas exist." > -------------------------- Is that the same as saying, "Dhammas `exist' when needed conditions have occurred, and in complete dependence on those conditions?" If so, I see no problem; in fact, it is the exact understanding I have been given all along. So what has all the fuss been about? There must, surely, be some perceived difference between "occurs," which Michael likes, and "exists," which Michael objects to. What is that difference? --------------------------- H: > When Nagarjuna used the word 'exists' he seems to mean "is a true, separate, self-supporting entity," -------------------------- Does he mean, "not subject to conditions?" Is that what he accused the ancient commentators of saying? If so, how could he ever support such a ludicrous accusation? Without having studied a word of Nagarjuna, I wonder if he was trying to teach something altogether different from, "dhammas are real." I suspect he believed that dhammas are not real and that only the conditions-for-dhammas are real. That is, that dhammas are created in the mind as logical explanations of the prevailing conditions. This would explain why Michael has trouble differentiating between concepts and dhammas: by his definition, both are equally unreal – they are both mere, conventional designations. ---------------- H: > If I'm not mistaken, Michael is accepting this definitional perspective, whereas you and others here, Ken, are not. ----------------- By this point, I seem to have lost the gist of what you are saying, Howard. Let me just stress; it is very important to know that dhammas are realities. Visible object can be seen, not touched; tactile object can be touched, not seen. If we don't fully appreciate their reality, how is panna ever going to directly know them? Kind regards, Ken H PS: As I post this, I see that this argument is being thrashed out on "Points of Contraversy." Maybe the above is already obsolete, but I will post it anyway." KH 30396 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/21/04 6:46:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Hello Howard: > > > > Howard: > > Yes, provided that, as in the note, "real and ultimate" is considered > synonymous with "self-dependent". > On the other hand, if one takes "real and ultimate" to just mean > "actually observed (rather than imagined or merely imputed on the basis of > other > things)", then I would *not* take that to be at all incompatible with being > conditioned. In the particular case we are discussing, it would seem that > both > Moggaliputta Tissa and the writer of the note give "real and ultimate" the > first > meaning (as would Nagarjuna). > > > > Michael: > > Maybe it wasn't clear from my message but the interpretation that real and > ultimate means self dependent comes from the commentary to the Kathavatthu, > therefore I assume this is the 'official' interpretation for the meaning of > real and ultimate. In respect of your second interpretation, that would be a > nice way of accommodating conditionality with real and ultimate but that is not > what the commentary says. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, you were clear. That slipped my mind. So that was the sense of "real and ultimate" used in the *commentary*! That's interesting, now that I think about it, in that it is compatible with the Madhyamaka perspective. So, yes, if one takes the commentaries as official - I don't, but others here seem to - that makes this the "official" take on the terminology. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Howard: > > And they all believe, as far as I know, that anything that is actually > > observed, actually occurs, actually appears, and is not merely imagined or > imputed > > on the basis of other things, is conditioned, is dependent, and is not > > self-existent. > > > > Michael: > > I don't understand why something that is imagined, which is the same as a > thought or mental object, would also not be conditioned. Why only the product > of contact with the other five sense media is considered to be conditionally > arisen and not the contact with the mind? I don't understand what you mean by > 'imputed on the basis of other things'. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: By something that is imagined, I do NOT mean a thought or mental object. Now you, Michael, are starting to talk like some of the others here!! ;-)) A thought or mental object is NOT imagined, at least not as far as I'm concerned. It is an actual experience arising at the mind door. Thoughts and ideas are just as real or unreal as any other elements of experience. What a thought or mental object intendedly *points to*, on the other hand, may well be imagined. In fact, I believe that what it points to is *always* imagined in a way, because the intended object of a thought or idea, even when something such as hardness or heat, is never the same as the directly experienced object - the actual experience referenced just isn't there, only the idea or thought of it is there, and that is always different. The thought of heat may arise in the mind, but that which is thought *of*, namely heat, just isn't there; the thought of heat is not heat. Having a thought of something, however, and actually experiencing such a thing, may have some consequences in common. For example, experincing pain, and recalling pain or imagining it, are both likely to elicit an aversive reaction. As far as the "imputed" terminology is concerned, I borrowed that from the Gelugpa centrist school of Tibetan Buddhism. They use it in discussing concepts, saying, for example, that a chariot is not a "reality", because it is merely imputed on the basis of its parts. I thought that you might be aware of that terminology, and so I purposely used it as a possibly useful means of communication with you. You can ignore it. It isn't important. ------------------------------------------------ > > > > Metta > > Michael > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30397 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Thanks, Christine! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/21/04 6:51:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Michael and Howard, > > The wonders of pali :-) Sometimes there are variations in spelling > and also of punctuation. I think the meaning you are looking for is > in the PTS definition below .. saccik' attha. > > "Saccika (p. 668) (adj.) [cp. Sk. satyaka] real, true Miln 226 (the > same passage at Ps I.174 &Nd1 458 spells sacchika). > <-> saccik' attha truth, reality, the highest truth Kvu 1 sq.; DhsA 4 > (nearly=paramattha); KhA 102." > > metta and peace, > Christine > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30398 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi, Ken (and Michael) - In a message dated 2/21/04 7:25:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard and Michael, > > Howard wrote: > -------------- > >I wonder what Michael's reaction would be to language of the > form "Dhammas occur when needed conditions have occurred, and in > complete dependence on those conditions" as opposed to "Dhammas > exist." > > -------------------------- > > Is that the same as saying, "Dhammas `exist' when needed conditions > have occurred, and in complete dependence on those conditions?" If > so, I see no problem; in fact, it is the exact understanding I have > been given all along. So what has all the fuss been about? There > must, surely, be some perceived difference between "occurs," which > Michael likes, and "exists," which Michael objects to. What is that > difference? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The difference is that sometimes "to exist" has an atta sense to it, a sense of being a separate, self-sufficient entity, as opposed to a phenomenon that is nothing more than a fleeting condition that appears automatically due to other conditions having been or being in effect, and in complete dependence on those conditions. The expressions 'occur, and 'arise' and 'appear' are freer of a connotation of independent status than is "exist". ---------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------- > H: >When Nagarjuna used the word 'exists' he seems to mean "is a > true, separate, self-supporting entity," > -------------------------- > > Does he mean, "not subject to conditions?" Is that what he accused > the ancient commentators of saying? If so, how could he ever support > such a ludicrous accusation? > > Without having studied a word of Nagarjuna, I wonder if he was > trying to teach something altogether different from, "dhammas are > real." I suspect he believed that dhammas are not real and that > only the conditions-for-dhammas are real. That is, that dhammas are > created in the mind as logical explanations of the prevailing > conditions. This would explain why Michael has trouble > differentiating between concepts and dhammas: by his definition, > both are equally unreal – they are both mere, conventional > designations. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'll let Michael speak for himself on this. ------------------------------------------------ > > ---------------- > > H: >If I'm not mistaken, Michael is accepting this definitional > perspective, whereas you and others here, Ken, are not. > > ----------------- > > By this point, I seem to have lost the gist of what you are saying, > Howard. Let me just stress; it is very important to know that > dhammas are realities. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the sense of reality as "not imagined, but actually experienced" I quite agree. ---------------------------------------------------- Visible object can be seen, not touched; > > tactile object can be touched, not seen. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. ---------------------------------------------------- If we don't fully > > appreciate their reality, how is panna ever going to directly know > them? > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > PS: As I post this, I see that this argument is being thrashed out > on "Points of Contraversy." Maybe the above is already obsolete, > but I will post it anyway." > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, from that thread it's starting to seem that the official commentarial notion of "real and ultimate" actually may be incompatible with being conditioned, and very much the same as Nagarjuna's! -------------------------------------------- > KH > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30399 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack J: In any case, I have never said that jhanas are necessary for enlightenment. k: thats good J> Meditation slows events down in a protected environment so I can > start to see all phenomena is temporary, not self and unsatisfactory. I have yet to meet anyone or hear about anyone who can even start this clear seeing without formal meditation. This is the wisdom that alleviates suffering. Just talking about wisdom is worthless in itself. k: Let me ask you this question, can one control thoughts and tell thoughts to slow down. Do one need to go to a protect environment to realise that dhammas are anatta, anicca and dukkha? Do you think satipatthana only works in a protected environment or in every moment when we are talking, walking or eating? So what do you do when you come out of the protected environment, are you still able to see dhammas as anatta, anicca and dukkha. J> If I see clearly, I show compassion and loving kindness toward > others. This reduces their suffering. k: By just being compassion, do you think this will reduce other pain Let me quote you MN 82 Ratthapala Sutta <<"And what do you think, great king: Can you say to your friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, 'My friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen are commanded: all of you who are present, share out this pain so that I may feel less pain'? Or do you have to feel that pain all alone?" "Oh, no, Master Ratthapala, I can't say to my friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, 'All of you who are present, share out this pain so that I may feel less pain.' I have to feel that pain all alone." >> then again what is compassion. To me, what I call compassion, is someone who follow the teachings, attain the path even in the stream entrant level and teach others how to attain the path. Ken O 30400 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:24pm Subject: Puzzlement over SN. Hello all and esp. SN corner dwellers, In the general intro. to Samyutta Nikaya, p48 B.Bodhi states: "It should be noted that in the Nikayas, namarupa does not include consciousness (vinnana). Consciousness is its condition, and the two are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds leaning one against the other (II 114,17-19)" Firstly, I cannot figure out these numbers, what they refer to 'cos they don't seem to correspond to the numbering in the copy I have. Any suggestions anyone? Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." but imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds. Can anyone shed any light on this please?? It's a long, long way to Nibbana. Azita. 30401 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:13pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard, > This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much > ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). Might it not occur to you that there are people who have difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama? Regards, Swee Boon 30402 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:36pm Subject: Re: Puzzlement over SN. Hi Azita You wrote: > It's a long, long way to Nibbana. A: That's true, but I cannot say categorically of you (or any other person) that "Nibbana will not be attained in the next moment". The conditions (of which I am totally ignorant) may all come together for you! Nibbana could be a moment away! The same goes for everyone on and off DSG. This thought makes the world look a different place, doesn't it? Best Wishes Andrew 30403 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. Hi Azita, A: "(II 114,17-19)" Firstly, I cannot figure out these numbers" L: Look on page 608. "II" is the book, "114" is the bracketed PTS page number, and "17-19" is the lines on that PTS page. Highly cryptic!!! It took forever to figure it out :-))) A: "Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." but imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds." L: The two sheaves are consciousness and namarupa. Consciousness is included in "nama" only in abhidhamma classifications. In the dependent arising formula consciousness is not included in nama. You could think of namarupa as body and personality, or body and identity (something like that), the basic DNA package. Because namarupa and consciousness are codependent, we might say sankhara conditions the arising of both, and both condition the arising of the 6 sense bases. But Nina might not like that:-) Larry 30404 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. Hi, Azita - In a message dated 2/21/04 9:25:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." > but imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the > impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I > understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting > each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that > nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds. > > Can anyone shed any light on this please?? > > ====================== I believe that attention is included in namarupa in place of consciousness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30405 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/21/04 10:23:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much > >ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). > > Might it not occur to you that there are people who have difficulty > distinguishing rupa from nama? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suspect precious few, and I would also suspect a cognitive disorder in such cases (greater, that is, than all worldlings have ;-). ------------------------------------------------------ > > Regards, > Swee Boon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30406 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hello Jack, Here is a verse from Dhammapada for consideration: 372: There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/25.html#372 Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: [snip] In my and most senior > Buddhist teacher's view, jhanas are not necessary but helpful for insight/wisdom. > In any case, I have never said that jhanas are necessary for enlightenment. [snip] > > jack 30407 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi again, michael - You had written: >M> aybe it wasn't clear from my message but the interpretation that real and > > >ultimate means self dependent comes from the commentary to the Kathavatthu, > > >therefore I assume this is the 'official' interpretation for the meaning of > > >real and ultimate. In respect of your second interpretation, that would be > a > >nice way of accommodating conditionality with real and ultimate but that > is not > >what the commentary says. > > and I had replied: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, you were clear. That slipped my mind. ===================================== Actually, I was wrong in this reply. Your message actually had not made that clear, at least not to me. What you had written was the following: _____________________________ The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions. -------------------------------------------------- I took this to mean that "Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions" is what was commentary, and not the preceding sentence that said: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' It didn't just "slip my mind" that the commentary accepted that definition of 'real and ultimate' - I actually *missed * that important fact. Thank you for clarifying this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30408 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael Please read the whole passage and the end of the passage on <> pg 68 So where is there self that is self dependent thing to be found Then again condition thing is not the opposite of a self independent thing (which here I used it to describe as eternalism). Nothing exist is the opposite of a self independent thing. Condition is meant just to show dhammas depend on each other to exist. And there is no self involved. That is why some scholars made the mistake of equate Anatta as opposite of atta which is not correct. It is nihilism is the opposite of atta whereas anatta has no opposite, it is just anatta, a term to explain not self. Ken O 30409 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard, > I would suspect precious few, and I would also suspect a cognitive > disorder in such cases (greater, that is, than all worldlings have As much as I disagree with you, yet in no way do I see the Teacher incapable of expounding his Dhamma in full clarity to these precious few. I do not see any defects in the Teacher's dispensation. http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/misc/nytimes2.html http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/papers/tls.html Among the several positions held about consciousness and the self, Dennett and many others believe consciousness is simply what the brain does, a process, like life or growth, not a great philosophical problem. Gazzaniga believes that it is indeed something the brain does, but he offers a location for the self, an "interpreter module" in the left cerebral cortex. Some philosophers say the whole notion that activity in the brain can account for subjective experience is naive and unacceptable. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,525036215,00.html Burgess and a colleague are currently doing experiments to see if "external qi" — directed deliberately by a person toward someone or something else — can cause chicken nerve cells to grow differently in a petri dish. "The work is in progress, but it's promising," Burgess reports. If successful, the experiments might show that consciousness is something real and separate from the brain, acting not only on nerve cells in the brain but on other cells as well. "We don't know what consciousness is," he says. "If we knew what its properties were, then we might say, 'Of course it might survive death because given its properties we can predict it will not be dependent for its integrity on being interfaced with the brain.' But we don't know now. We're very, very early in this as a scientific endeavor." Regards, Swee Boon 30410 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:43pm Subject: Gradual Training Hi Jeff Are you still around, is a long while since I heard from you. I remember you said it is possibe to be enlightened this lifetime with jhanas. It may be possible for those who have the right conditions, I think for the average man, below is a sutta on gradual training. MN Sutta 70, Kitagiri Sutta <> Ken O 30411 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi all For who doubt the so call "non-action" group in DSG ;-) So where is the need to deliberate action because faith, reflection will condition actions to arise. So where is the doer doing the doing ;-) Cheers. Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 <> Ken O 30412 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Commentaries in Memoriam... Venerable Bhante, I appreciate your quote from Ms. Horner very much. As I learnt from an old grammarian (I am not sure it is from the Kaccayaana): (akkharavipattiya.m hi atthassa dunnayataa hoti, tasmaa akkharakosalla.m bahuupakaara.m suttantesu). This is another proof that the ancient teachers were most accurate. If people today think that there were mistakes it is worth while studying such points. Then one can examine whether he himself has perhaps not understood the subtle points. Respectfully, Nina. op 21-02-2004 10:20 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu_samahita@y...: > It is true that the Pali words can be translated, yet what they might > mean in this or that context, can best be elucidated by utilizing the > ancient commentaries and their accurate, exhaustive & thorough > method of explanation... > The Pali Canon & the Commentaries are thus an interdependent Pair! > The latter is the essential & only prevailing tool for understanding > -as exact as possibly can be- of the former... > Together they form an ordered whole, to guide Humanity in its quest > for Independence and the Perfection of Freedom..." 30413 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael, I appreciate your interest in the Kathavatthu. See my note below. op 21-02-2004 18:37 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu" and > started to read Book I on the Existence of a Personal Entity. I came across a > note on page 54 which has caught my attention, and maybe someone would care to > confirm whether my reading is correct. The question placed by the Theravadin > and the note reads as follows: > > [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact - > is the person conditioned? > > The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature > of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned > (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by > something else, made, has come together by conditions. > My understanding is that a conditioned thing is the opposite of a self > dependent thing, i.e. a conditioned thing exists by virtue of internal and > external conditions, and apart from those conditions it is impossible for that > thing to exist, while a self dependent thing is something that does not depend > on conditions but depends on something intrinsic to it for its existence. > My reading of the note is that a real and ultimate fact is a self dependent > fact, i.e. not subject to conditions. Any comments? N: Did you see the square brackets? It must be the translator and here we see again how important Pali is. Could you, perhaps, download the Pali so that we can compare? I do not have this edition of PTS, I have the Thai with Pali in Thai but I have the PTS Co: <..here 'real' means that which is not to be apprehended as not fact, like magic, a mirage and the like; actual. 'Ultimate' means that which is not to be accepted as hearsay; highest sense...> How does this sound to you? Nina. 30414 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting out on Abhidhamma Phil Good to have you back again. --- Philip wrote: > Hello everyone. > This morning, I read the following passage posted by Jon. > "I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries is > necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses...". ... > Anyways, thanks for the nudge about Abhidhamma, Jon. You're welcome, Phil. You are fortunate in being able to see so readily the relevance of the Abhidhamma. For most (including me) it takes not months but years. > Metta > Phil > P.S And the first chapter of Nina's book has already enabled me to > better understand what the heck you folks are talking about all the time! :) That's great. Immediate result! I know how frustrating it is without a familiarity with the terms. Nina's book is very informative, and unique in the way suttas and Abhidhamma are used to illustrate and explain each other. Happy reading! Jon PS For others who may be inspired by Phil's example, here are links to ADL again: http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 30415 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Andy Hello and welcome from me. I very much liked you quote from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha, --- Andy Wilson wrote: ... > "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial > realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which > presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) So obvious yet so profound. And the importance of hearing the dhamma applies not just initially in a given lifetime, I believe, but again and again throughout that life and subsequent lifetimes until enlightenment has been achieved (although if I'm not mistaken, the Buddha urged even those who had attained enlightenment to continue listening and reflecting). Thanks for the reminder. Hope you're having a good weekend. Jon 30416 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:29am Subject: Panna and the Fourth Noble Truth (was, The Dhamma ...) Jack Thanks for the correction about clinging being the Second Noble Truth, not the first. I find mistakes are liable to happen at 6 in the morning, especially when you're trying to be out of the door by 6:30. (And this in fact wasn't the only mistake in the post -- see below.) Thanks also for commenting on the other points: Jack: The Fourth Noble Truth/ 8-Fold Path has 8 paths not one. Looking at it another way, Right Knowledge is only 1/8 of the 8-Fold Path. Jon: I was referring to the Noble Eightfold Path as explained in the Pali canon (especially in the commentaries etc). To my reading, the Noble Eightfold Path means one or other of the following: (a) A moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta), that is to say, the moment of 1 of the 4 stages of enlightenment. At such moments (and only at such moments) the consciousness is accompanied by all 8 path factors, these being different mental factors (cetasikas) arising with the path consciousness. (b) A moment of mundane path consciousness (consciousness accompanied by panna of the level of satipatthana; vipassana bhavana), that is to say, a moment at which a presently arising dhamma is seen by panna as it truly is. At such moments some, but not all 8, of the path factors are present (these again being mental factors (cetasikas) arising with the consciousness (citta)). Thus according to these texts the path is a *single but multi-factored* occurrence; it cannot be constituted by the presence of just 1 or 2 of the 8 factors -- all or most must be present. That means that if one particular factor is present, the others must be there too. As regards the particular role of panna (right view), this is said to 'come first', i.e., to be the leader. So for these reasons I think it's quite OK to characterise the fourth Noble Truth, in a mundane sense, as the development of panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana. Jack: If one looks at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, ignorance is the cause of suffering. But, one could also say vedana (feelings) are the cause of suffering. Or, one could pick any of the links in the Cycle and say they are a cause of suffering. The Cycle is a cycle, i.e., the last link is connected to the first. Change any link and suffering is eliminated. The usual way to look at it is that the two easiest to change are the links of ignorance and feelings. Jon: My grasp of dependent origination, even at the theoretical level, is weak, I'm afraid, but if I'm not mistaken the texts of the Pali canon indicate that the cycle is broken by the absence/destruction of ignorance (i.e., the presence of panna). I'm not aware that feelings are mentioned in this context, but I'd be happy to be corrected. Perhaps someone has a reference on the point. Talking of mistakes, as we were earlier, in my last post to you I said: As the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear, there can be awareness of presently occurring akusala mind-states. This would be an instance of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. In fact the foundation I had in mind was the third (mind/citta), which in the 'Way of Mindfulness' translation of the Satipatthana Sutta is referred to as the Contemplation of Consciousness (see excerpt pasted below). While on the subject of awareness of akusala mind-states, note also that the hindrances are specifically mentioned as objects of awareness too, under the fourth foundation (dhammas), referred to as the Contemplation of Mental Objects (see excerpt). They are given the same 'status' as any other dhammas in the range of potential objects of satipatthana. In some texts dealing with the hindrances there is a 6th, ignorance, which is given as the one hindrance to enlightenment, the usual 5 being regarded as hindrances to jhaana only. We seem to be covering quite a number of points :) Jon Soma Thera, 'The Way of Mindfulness' (Satipatthana Sutta) ************************ The Contemplation of Consciousness "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ... The Contemplation on Mental Objects 1. The Five Hindrances "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. ... when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' ... etc [and the same for the rest of the 5 hindrances] ... ******************* 30417 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi All, For those who don’t have copes of the texts, let me fish out a few quotes I’ve given before in earlier posts: Kathaavatthu transl as 'Points of Controversy' by Shwe Zan Aung & Mrs Rhys Davids (PTS) Kathaavatthuppakara.na-A.t.thakathaa as 'The Debates Commentary' by Bimala Churn Law (PTS) ================ 1. From Kathavatthu above - summary of commentary: ..... “1. Of the Existence of a Personal Entity. Controverted Point. That the ‘person’ is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact. (S:paramattha dhamma). From the commentary- The Theravadin questions a Puggalavadin (one who believes in the existence of a personal entity, soul, or perduring immortal essence in man) concerning his position. Who among the eighteen schools of thought were Puggalavadins? In the Saasana the Vajjiputtakas and Sammitiyas, and many other teachers besides, not belonging to the Saasana. ‘Person’(puggala) means soul, being, vital principle. ‘Is known’: is approached and got at by the understanding, is cognized. ‘Real’: not taken as an effect of magic or mirage, actual. ‘Ultimate’(paramattho): highest sense, not taken from tradition, or hearsay. ‘Known’ as one of the fifty-seven ultimates of our conscious experience (i.e 5 aggregates, 12 sense organs and objects, 18 elements, 22 controlling powers). ***** 2.From Kathaavatthu above, Book 1, 1 The Eight Refutations. The First Refutation, 1) The fivefold Affirmative Presentation. “Theravadin - Is ‘the person’ known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact? Puggalavadin - Yes Th - Is the person known ‘in the same way’ as a real and ultimate fact is known? P - Nay, that cannot truly be said. Th - Acknowledge your refutation: i) If the person be known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, then indeed, good sir, you should also say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact[is known]. ii) that which you say here is wrong, namely, 1) that we ought to say,‘the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact,’ but 2) we ought not to say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact [is known]. iii) If the latter statement 2) cannot be admitted, then indeed the former statement 1) should not be admitted. iv) In affirming the former statement 1), while v) denying the latter 2), you are wrong. ***** 3.From the Kathavatthu above,Bk1, 111, Derivatives: “Theravadin - Is the concept of soul (puggala) derived from the corporeal qualities (rupas)? Puggalavadin - Yes. T: But has a soul also any or all of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Or is the concept of soul derived from feeling, from perception, from mental coefficients, from consciousness? P: Yes (to each aggregate in succession). T: Is any mental aggregate impermanent, conditioned? Does it happen through a cause? Is it liable to perish, to pass away, to become passionless, to cease, to change? P: Yes. T: But has soul also any of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.....” ..... [S:The same argument applies to table, chair, tree and so on....] To link this to the SN1, Devatasamyutta thread, we read in SN1:76 (6) Does Not Decay: “What decays, what does not decay? .................. “The physical form (rupa) of mortals decays (jaarati), Their name and clan does not decay.” ***** Metta, Sarah I’d like to stress again the points I made in the following post when reading the Tipitaka (including Abhidhamma) and ancient Pali commentaries, especially if you are familiar with Nagarjuna and his writings: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m23762.html ======== 30418 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Michael --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, > > And I say vow, this statement does away with the whole noble > eightfold path. > > > what breaks that cycle is the development of panna of the kind > associated with > satipatthana/vipassana (this is the gist of the fourth noble truth) Well that depends on how you see the Noble Eightfold Path ;-)) You haven't explained, but if your point is similar to Jack's, please see my reply just sent to him. Happy to discuss further. Jon 30419 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Victor Thanks for setting this little assignment for me ;-)). I hope you don't mind if I just repeat the offer I made in my last post, namely, that if there's any particular point from my post that you'd like to question or discuss I'll do my best to elaborate. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Whatever point in the message > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 > that you want to support with discourses are fine. I think what > you > can do is to go through the statements you made in the message and > list all or some of the points in that message and provide some > reference to each of them so the discussion is based on how the > discourses support or not support your points. > > Metta, > Victor 30420 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi Ken O & All, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > For who doubt the so call "non-action" group in DSG ;-) So where is > the need to deliberate action because faith, reflection will > condition actions to arise. So where is the doer doing the doing ;-) > Cheers. .... I was also reminded of the following from the Satipathana Sutta commentary. (Remember the ‘Way’ corner?) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18237.html Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. &ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika),Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html “There are these six things which help to throw out doubt: The state of being learned in the Buddha's teaching; of inquiring about the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; of understanding thoroughly the nature of the Discipline; of being decided about the truth of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; sympathetic and helpful companionship; and stimulating talk that helps to dispel doubt. "The first has been explained earlier. It is the knowledge of the Suttas generally both in the letter and the spirit. The second is obvious. The third indicates a state of mastery of the Discipline through practical application and great conversance with it at first hand. The fourth is the strong inclination towards or reliance on the Triple Gem called the faith that is capable of settling in the object of the virtues of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. The fifth is association with good companions like the Elder Vakkali, bent, inclined, sliding towards faith, mentally. The sixth is stimulating talk on the Triple Gem at all times possible in every state of behavior. One can cast away doubt by means of these six things, but the doubt cast out by these six things does not ever arise in the future only when it is destroyed by the attainment of the first stage of the Arahant." Metta, Sarah ====== 30421 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > This could be a sort of attachment of my part... anyway, the other > Abhidhamma's other books and Tiikas are very good too. However, the > fact is I really like Dhammasangani style! .... S: Well, when we’re reading texts, there are bound to be the usual mixed pot pourri of wholesome and not so wholesome states. It’s good to recognise the attachment at these times too;-) I’m very excited (read lots of attachment in the pot pourri) that Michael and others are reading the Kathavatthu as I love its style. I was always rather put off the Dhammasangani because the English transl is not the best - that’s why I’m glad you’re introducing me to bits of the Pali - pls keep quoting them for me. .... > Oh! Don't be so amused ;-)). > At Pali Language I am threading a path a quite similar for my > former learnings(Hah!Hah!). I am taking the Duroseille's, the > Elementary Pali Course of Maha Narada Thera and a direct approach of > the Abhidhamma itself. It's being very fruitful! .... S: Actually, if one has studied the Abhidhamma a little, the Abhidhamma-Pali is the easiest to follow I find - no descriptive passages with extra vocabulary. .... > The Visuddhimagga I will buy the complete and unabridged book out > of Pariyatti and BPS. The first chapter Coonie had provided me arose > my appetite! .... S: For general reference, the BPS version is hardback and sturdy. The Pariyatti version is paperback and more flimsy, but lighter and probably cheaper, I’m not sure. For Ch X1V (see study corner), the entire chapter in Pali can be found in files - go to the bottom where Jim has posted it. The numbering corresponds with the numbering for the sections Larry is posting in English.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ ..... > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Freud had already pointed out the links between the our sub- > conscience and the human being hearing apparatus. a good and nice > word makes real good! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, of course it’s not just the hearing or the opening of the book,nor is it the amount of reading or number of teachers one visits that leads to any insight, but the wise considering, reflecting and so on. If we haven’t heard or read the Dhamma or understood it correctly, there cannot be any wise reflection or refuge in the Dhamma. One word reflected on wisely out in the jungle can be far more precious than the entire Tipitaka read or heard in a temple without any understanding.....Oh it always comes back to the present reality in bootcamp, Thailand or whilst swimming in the cold sea this morning....brrr. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Indeed. I can say unto you, Sarah, that reading the portuguese > translation of the Chapter of Eights gave me really this impression - > something like "Let us try this venerable Holy Man and check out if > he has really got a knack on these ascetic matters!". > Only reading the Pali originals I can build up a better concept > about it! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- S: If you fish out the Pali we can compare it with the English translations I have (Saddhatissa’s which I quoted and Norman’s). I think the confidence in what we know from other studies helps - for example we know there is not a remnant of sarcasm or wrong speech for arahants, so if the translation seems to suggest this, we can be sure it’s a problem in the translation....Maybe Michael can help look at it too....His linguistic skills are amazing! .... > I will try to ellaborate this view: Buddha is really above such > low tracts of murdering, slandering and so on. As a matter of fact, a > mundane person stucked on these lower realms ought to spend many and > many lives to purify his/hers lives and begin to thread up the Path > towards Nibbana. No one can expect a state of Satipatthana fully > developed on Angulimala, for example, without the direct act of > Buddha. .... S:I get you so far.... .... >But since he is a "Thunderhead" himself, the arahat more > akin of his temper could be Sariputta. So, at Zen viewpoint, > Sariputta the Arahat is the mindfullness being Angulimala could > emulate on to stand at same feet! .... S:I get what you’re saying (maybe I haven't studied enough Zen to get the quick version).....still very different accumulations, I think. No one could emulate Sariputta (not sure the ‘thunderhead’ applies and I don’t think there is any suggestion of Sariputta being anything other than even-tempered:-/) Thanks for helping me with the riddle - look f/w to the next;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30422 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Christine, I had meant to come back to our discussion: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and All, > > Regarding vipassana - I feel comfortable with that definition, .... That definition was: “The term may correctly be applied to any Buddhist meditation technique that aims for a complete understanding of the Three Characteristics -...” If we sat down and concentrated on breath or the abdomen or any other object(s) with this aim, would that be ‘vipassana’ as you understand it? If not, what makes a ‘Buddhist meditation technique’ and if so, what is it about the concentration or practice here that makes it ‘vipassana’? ..... > and > also with Nyanatiloka where he says "Insight is not the result of a > mere intellectual understanding, but is won through direct meditative > observation of one's own bodily and mental processes", and then goes > on to list the stages of insight. .... OK, what do you understand by the ‘direct meditative observation’ here that you agree with? (I think it’s rather ambiguous). ..... >Good, also, to have the > opportunity to ask why choosing to sit and meditate is 'self-view' > and possibly even silabbata-paraamaasa, but choosing to regularly > study, discuss and listen to the Dhamma isn't? ..... Excellent Qu. Again it comes back to present realities. If one chooses to sit and meditate or to open a book believing that the concentration or study will in itself bring any vipassana, then it’s likely to be silabbata-paraamaasa - it can creep in anytime. Or it may be self-view, thinking that it’s MY understanding or that in truth one really CAN choose any action. If we have any idea of it being the action in itself that brings about the insight, it’s wrong. As it mentioned in the commentary to the sutta on Scholars and Meditators I referred to, it said under the first category: “But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning.” In other words, it’s the panna conditioned by hearing the right words rather than the activity itself that is vipassana. Again, it’ll be by conditions whether we sit and meditate, swim in cold water or open texts, considering wisely or unwisely. I wrote in that post (7421), >The dhammayoga bhikkhus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) ‘penetrate the deep meaning of the khandhas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements), the ayatanas (sense-fields).’ < However, when there is an idea of ‘penetrating the deep meaning’ or concentrating on the khandhas or listening to Dhamma in order to have more sati (for self), then wrong view and clinging to wrong practice are bound to creep in again. That’s why we can talk about the value of listening, considering and so on, but it always comes back to present sati and panna to really be aware and know the namas and rupas appearing now. I’d be glad to continue this discussion, Chris, and hear any more about what’s on your mind - frank is fine! These are good and subtle points. Metta, Sarah ====== 30423 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:05am Subject: I'm Back! Hi All, I'm back! ;-)) My computer is fixed now and I am simply overwhelmed by the number of posts I missed! I know that it will be impossible for me to try to backtrack. I will just enter here. If there is a post that was directed to me which anyone would like me to address, please let me know and I will get to it. I hope Sarah hasn't gone through too much withdrawal from me giving her a hard time! I will try to catch up in that regard. ;-)) If anyone else would like me to give them a hard time also, don't hesitate to ask! ;-) Metta, James 30424 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:33am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Sarah, Sarah: If we have any idea of it being the action in itself that brings about the insight, it's wrong. James: How do you know this? Are you using `we' as in the `Royal We' meaning `You'? Or `we' as in `everyone'? If it is the latter, I don't think you know what will or will not bring about insight for anyone else. You are making a broad generalization and a huge assumption. Sarah: "But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning." In other words, it's the panna conditioned by hearing the right words rather than the activity itself that is vipassana. James: I find your `In other words' paraphrase of this quote to be incorrect. This quote states that `asking questions' is also a level of panna and yet you don't acknowledge this activity in your paraphrase. I don't believe that panna is as passive as you are suggesting. Sarah: That's why we can talk about the value of listening, considering and so on, but it always comes back to present sati and panna to really be aware and know the namas and rupas appearing now. James: Knowing the namas and rupas appearing now is impossible without the activities of mindfulness and concentration (meditation). The level of panna you are describing is only intellectual, it isn't penetrative. It isn't a direct knowledge and therefore isn't going to do us much good. Sure, you can discuss it till the cows come home ;-), but suffering won't be decreased any and enlightenment won't be realized (according to what the Buddha taught). Metta, James 30425 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Sarah, Ken O and All --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken O & All, ... > “There are these six things which help to throw out doubt: ... > [5] sympathetic and helpful companionship; and > [6] stimulating talk that helps to dispel doubt. > > "... The fifth is association with good companions > like the Elder Vakkali, bent, inclined, sliding towards faith, > mentally. > The sixth is stimulating talk on the Triple Gem at all times > possible in every state of behavior. And I think it's worth adding that the same 2 factors of association with good companions and stimulating talk are given as helping to throw out each of the 5 hindrances (and I read 'throw out' here as meaning 'eradicate'). Powerful conditions, in my view. Jon 30426 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Commentaries in Memoriam... Dear Ven. Samahita (& Nina), I also appreciated the comments and quote. Miss Horner also wrote in her preface to the the same text, ‘Clarifier of Sweet Meaning: “The prime object of every Commentary is to make the meanings of the words and phrases in the canonical passages it is elucidating abudantly clear, definite, definitive even, ‘heuristic’ in E.Hardy’s words, and virtually beyond all doubt and argument. This is to preserve the Teaching of the Buddha as nearly as possible in the sense intended, and as conveyed by the succession of teachers, aacariyaparamparaa. Always there were detractors, always there were and still are ‘improvers’ ready with their own notions. Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The ctys are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as “closed” now as is the Pali canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no cty written in later days could be included in it.” ***** Besides her wonderful and valuable translation work and writing, I.B. Horner was Honorary Secretary of the Pali Text Society, 1942-59, and President and Honorary Treasurer, 1959-81. As I’ve mentioned once before, I once turned up at her London flat in 1976, thinking I was visiting the PTS. bookshop to buy my first PTS texts, a copy of the Atthasalini translation and one of the Nikaya collections, I believe, at what was a great expense for me then. I’d walked a long way and was most embarassed when a neat, small, elderly lady opened the door and told me it was her home address I’d followed from the PTS catalogue. Miss Horner invited me in for afternoon tea -- it was rather unheard of in London to invite strangers in to one’s house -- and she was very sweet and modest, reminding me of a favourite great aunt. I had no idea then that many of the texts in her library which was along one wall of the small, very English living room were her own translations. I had studied very little then, but she showed a lot of interest and encouragement for my intended purchases of texts and recent travels in India and Sri Lanka, without a word about her own extensive studies and scholarship or travels or interrupted work which I could see laid out on a desk. In appreciation, Metta, Sarah ====== --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > "I believe there to be a increasingly aware understanding of that > the Buddha-Dhamma of the Pali Canon is so deep, subtle, precise, > comprehensive & systematic, that it is not as easy to grasp, as often > initially imagined... > It is true that the Pali words can be translated, yet what they might > mean in this or that context, can best be elucidated by utilizing the > ancient commentaries and their accurate, exhaustive & thorough > method of explanation... > The Pali Canon & the Commentaries are thus an interdependent Pair! > The latter is the essential & only prevailing tool for understanding > -as exact as possibly can be- of the former... > Together they form an ordered whole, to guide Humanity in its quest > for Independence and the Perfection of Freedom..." > --oo0oo-- > > Miss Isabel Blew Horner (1896-1981), > President of the Pali Text Society 1959-81. > Author of over 200 works on Buddhism. > A western pioneer & promoter of Buddhist study. > In the 'Clarifier of Sweet Meaning' > The Buddha-Vamsa commentary. 30427 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hi Chrisitne, I have some questions on this passage: In the Buddha's sermon, for what qualities one may definitely hold: "This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction."? In other words, what is the Teacher's instruction in the sermon? Be cool. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor and all, > > This sutta also fits in with the Samyutta study corner, and also with > the Vinaya. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note > about its origination, which is below: [snip] > Are you chaps any cooler up round Cooran? (KenH, Andrew, Steve) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > 1. Dispassion > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion 30428 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Sensing Dhamma as they really are ( 02 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Contemplation on Dhamma has to arise when dhamma in different situations have been well recognized. At first, the meditator practised breathing meditation on his breath. In doing so, there develops some achievement. He notices that when the incoming air touches his nostril, a new consciousness arises knowing the touch sensation. That conscious mind is nama dhamma. The nostril where the touch sense is sensed is rupa dhamma. The air is rupa dhamma as well. But that air is sensed as touch sense and that touch sense is also rupa dhamma. Touch-consciousness or kayavinnana citta is nama dhamma. There are nama dhamma and rupa dhamma and nothing more than that. So this arises clearly in his wisdom while he is practising mindfulness on body, feeling, and mind and mind phenomena. This knowledge 'as real' happens at a time and this may be followed by other different mind states. Depending on maturity, the frequency of arising of concentrated mind is different in different sattas or beings. Sometimes, thougts drift away from the meditational object and meditational contemplation. But at certain time, a new mind state arises recognizing 'mind has been in the thought process' involving in sensual pleasure and sensual thoughts. When this arises, the meditator notes that it arising. And when it persists, the meditator notes that these thoughts persists. And again, when these sensual thoughts vanishes then he cognizes that they have passed away. He contemplates on those mind states as a hindrance to attainment of higher panna or wisdom. The hindrances are called nivarana dhamma and they hinder arising of jhana cittas, magga cittas, phala cittas. These sensual pleasure and sensual thoughts hinder jhana cittas and also hinder arising of upacara samadhi or proximate concentration. As thoughts on different things apart from the primary meditational object arise then there will not be any more concentrated mind. So called are these as hindrances or nivarana dhamma. These sensual thoughts are known as kamacchandha nivarana. May all meditators be free from kamacchandha nivarana or sensual thoughts while in meditation. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30429 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Jon, It is ok, I will pass your offer. Thanks. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks for setting this little assignment for me ;-)). I hope you > don't mind if I just repeat the offer I made in my last post, namely, > that if there's any particular point from my post that you'd like to > question or discuss I'll do my best to elaborate. > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Whatever point in the message > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 > > that you want to support with discourses are fine. I think what > > you > > can do is to go through the statements you made in the message and > > list all or some of the points in that message and provide some > > reference to each of them so the discussion is based on how the > > discourses support or not support your points. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > 30430 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello Howard, Howard: By something that is imagined, I do NOT mean a thought or mental object. Now you, Michael, are starting to talk like some of the others here!! ;-)) A thought or mental object is NOT imagined, at least not as far as I'm concerned. It is an actual experience arising at the mind door. Thoughts and ideas are just as real or unreal as any other elements of experience. Michael: I think we are on the same page here. Howard: What a thought or mental object intendedly *points to*, on the other hand, may well be imagined. In fact, I believe that what it points to is *always* imagined in a way, because the intended object of a thought or idea, even when something such as hardness or heat, is never the same as the directly experienced object - the actual experience referenced just isn't there, only the idea or thought of it is there, and that is always different. The thought of heat may arise in the mind, but that which is thought *of*, namely heat, just isn't there; the thought of heat is not heat. Having a thought of something, however, and actually experiencing such a thing, may have some consequences in common. For example, experincing pain, and recalling pain or imagining it, are both likely to elicit an aversive reaction. Michael: I don't agree that the intended object of and idea is always imagined. In my view there is an external object which is captured by perception but perception is not capable of capturing an entire object in all its complexity. Perception only captures some signs and based on those it identifies the object. In addition to the signs perception is also influenced by contact and feelings which in turn are conditioned by kamma. There is also the influence of individual proclivities in this whole process. So, I would not completely discount the external object but how that external object will impinge on each individual mind process can vary significantly because of all the factors involved. Howard: As far as the "imputed" terminology is concerned, I borrowed that from the Gelugpa centrist school of Tibetan Buddhism. They use it in discussing concepts, saying, for example, that a chariot is not a "reality", because it is merely imputed on the basis of its parts. I thought that you might be aware of that terminology, and so I purposely used it as a possibly useful means of communication with you. You can ignore it. It isn't important. Michael: I see what you mean. If instead of 'things' you would have said 'parts' I might have got it. In the example of the chariot are you implying that the chariot is not real but the parts are? Because this is the what the paramatha/paññatti believers argue, i.e., the being is not real and not existent but the parts, the khandhas and dhammas are real and existent. Metta Michael 30431 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James > James: Knowing the namas and rupas appearing now is impossible > without the activities of mindfulness and concentration > (meditation). The level of panna you are describing is only > intellectual, it isn't penetrative. It isn't a direct knowledge > and therefore isn't going to do us much good. Sure, you can discuss it till the cows come home ;-), but suffering won't be decreased any and enlightenment won't be realized (according to what the Buddha taught). k: Are you saying that sati and panna only applies when we meditate. ;-) And suffering only reduce during such meditation. I recall sati and panna is applicable to sitting, eating, drinking etc in the satipathana suttas. It will interesting to hear from your standpoint that I think differ from the sutta. Ken O 30432 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hello Howard and Ken, H: When Nagarjuna used the word 'exists' he seems to mean "is a true, separate, self-supporting entity," K: Does he mean, "not subject to conditions?" Is that what he accused the ancient commentators of saying? If so, how could he ever support such a ludicrous accusation? Without having studied a word of Nagarjuna, I wonder if he was trying to teach something altogether different from, "dhammas are real." I suspect he believed that dhammas are not real and that only the conditions-for-dhammas are real. That is, that dhammas are created in the mind as logical explanations of the prevailing conditions. This would explain why Michael has trouble differentiating between concepts and dhammas: by his definition, both are equally unreal – they are both mere, conventional designations. H: I'll let Michael speak for himself on this. ------------------------------------------------ Michael: What I am saying is that the commentators do not openly reject the idea of conditionality but that there are influences of substantialism in the explanations and words used. It is by and large the same process that happens in this list were people use the arguments that dhammas are truly real and ultimate existents while at the same time defend the idea that they are conditioned without realizing that both qualifications are mutually exclusive and incoherent. For your information, Ken, since you are not familiar with the writings of Nagarjuna, he did not argue that conditions are real. ‘Real’ has the sense of self dependent and in that sense it is a word that does not correctly reflect his thinking and does not reflect the thinking in the suttas either. Phenomena that are co-dependently arisen cannot be classified as real. They occur, can be experienced, can perform functions but are not actually real. They are not unreal either, they just are. Metta Michael 30433 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello KenO, K: Then again condition thing is not the opposite of a self independent thing Michael: A conditioned thing only exists because of conditions which can be internal and external. A self dependent thing exists because of something intrinsic to it, it does not depend on conditions. A conditioned thing cannot be a self dependent thing and a self dependent thing cannot be a conditioned thing. The note I posted from the commentary to the Kathavattu specifies that ultimate realities are self dependent things. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Ong To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael Please read the whole passage and the end of the passage on <> pg 68 So where is there self that is self dependent thing to be found Then again condition thing is not the opposite of a self independent thing (which here I used it to describe as eternalism). Nothing exist is the opposite of a self independent thing. Condition is meant just to show dhammas depend on each other to exist. And there is no self involved. That is why some scholars made the mistake of equate Anatta as opposite of atta which is not correct. It is nihilism is the opposite of atta whereas anatta has no opposite, it is just anatta, a term to explain not self. Ken O 30434 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/21/04 8:07:13 PM Central Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: k: Let me ask you this question, can one control thoughts and tell thoughts to slow down. Do one need to go to a protect environment to realise that dhammas are anatta, anicca and dukkha? Do you think satipatthana only works in a protected environment or in every moment when we are talking, walking or eating? So what do you do when you come out of the protected environment, are you still able to see dhammas as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Ken O I get the sense you are just asking questions to be asking questions. I don't think either one of us is getting much out of this. So, this is the last questions I will be answering from you for a time. 1. By having the breath as primary meditation object, the arising of thoughts slow down. I think 99% of all people who have tried meditating can attest to this. 2. As I said in my previous post, I have never met anyone or read about anyone who has realized the 3 Marks without meditating in a protected environment. Theoretically, it could happen but I don't think it is very likely. 3. Satipatthana can "work" in any environment. But, as I said in (3) above, I think practice has to start in a protected environment. 4. Once one sees phenomena as the 3 Marks in a protected environment, one is changed and sees it everywhe re at any time. Practicing in a protected environment builds positive kamma. We start in a quiet environment watching our breath. With much practice, we have built up our "satipatthana muscles" and are able to apply it anywhere and anytime. I will let someone else if they are so inclined, address your comments on compassion below. Be well. Jack J> If I see clearly, I show compassion and loving kindness toward > others. This reduces their suffering. k: By just being compassion, do you think this will reduce other pain Let me quote you MN 82 Ratthapala Sutta <<"And what do you think, great king: Can you say to your friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, 'My friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen are commanded: all of you who are present, share out this pain so that I may feel less pain'? Or do you have to feel that pain all alone?" "Oh, no, Master Ratthapala, I can't say to my friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, 'All of you who are present, share out this pain so that I may feel less pain.' I have to feel that pain all alone." >> then again what is compassion. To me, what I call compassion, is someone who follow the teachings, attain the path even in the stream entrant level and teach others how to attain the path. 30435 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hello Sarah, This is how I see it: Have you ever worked out by running on a threadmill? To some this aerobic exercise might look silly: running and going nowhere, monotonous, and boring. They might doubt the efficacy of this exercise. They might even hold contempt for those who worked out by running on a threadmill or for the exercise itself. But for those who actually exercised by running on a threadmill, they knew better. They knew its benefit and they benefited from actually doing the exercise. To do aerobic exercise, one exercise one's body. To meditate, one develops and cultivates one's mind. Running on the threadmill might look silly or simply wrong to some, but there is a purpose for doing so. Just like there is a purpose for meditation: to develop and cultivate one's mind. And the cessation of dukkha is impossible without developing and cultivating one's mind in terms of right effort (samma vayamo), right awareness (samma sati), and right concentration (samma samadhi). Now, it is one's choice to meditate or not. If one chose not to meditate, no one else could force him or her to do otherwise. Nevertheless, whether one chose meditate or not, one could still appreciate others who actually did. That appreciation, as I see it, is mudita. Please drop by the new Dhamma study corner - Recognizing the Dhamma sometime. I look forward to your participation. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, [snip] > Metta, > > Sarah 30436 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/22/04 1:07:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi all > > For who doubt the so call "non-action" group in DSG ;-) So where is > the need to deliberate action because faith, reflection will > condition actions to arise. So where is the doer doing the doing ;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Did someone suggest there is a doer doing the doing? ------------------------------------------------- > Cheers. > > Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 > < practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] > visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays > respect to im, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; > having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the meaning of > the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he > gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings; when he has gained a > reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! -------------------------------------------------- > when zeal has sprung up; he applies his will; > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, and, yes, even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to useful volition. After all, we start where we are. ------------------------------------------------- having applied his> > will, -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' would sound better to some ears.) ------------------------------------------------ he scrutinises; having scrutinised; he strives; resolutely> > striving, > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and effort. (Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) ----------------------------------------------- he realises with the body the supreme truth and sess it by > > penetrating it with wisdom>> ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow! Sure is a good thing he strove. ----------------------------------------------- > > Ken O > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30437 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard and Swee Boon, I think you both are under a misapprehension of what insight into nama and rupa entails. The idea is to identify as many realities as possible in one's experience, not make a simple conceptual distinction between nama and rupa. Interestingly, one whose vehicle is insight is obliged to go into considerably more detail than one whose vehicle is serenity. See Vism. ch. XVIII. However, I agree with Howard that it is not that big a deal. We can do it! So let's go ahead. Maybe the two Kens can lead the way.---> Ken-do! Larry 30438 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:40am Subject: heartbase and insight knowledge Hi Nina, I notice in Vism. XVIII that insight knowledge into rupa begins with the heart-base for one whose vehicle is serenity. How should we take this? Should we visualize the heart or brain, notice the tangible data in the heart area or brain area, or what? Larry 30439 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/22/04 10:17:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > > I don't agree that the intended object of and idea is always imagined. In my > view there is an external object which is captured by perception but > perception is not capable of capturing an entire object in all its complexity. > Perception only captures some signs and based on those it identifies the object. > In addition to the signs perception is also influenced by contact and feelings > which in turn are conditioned by kamma. There is also the influence of > individual proclivities in this whole process. So, I would not completely discount > the external object but how that external object will impinge on each > individual mind process can vary significantly because of all the factors involved. > > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. Most people, including most Buddhists, are more like you in this respect than me. My position is one of thoroughgoing phenomenalism (or radical empiricism, as William James calls it). ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: > > As far as the "imputed" terminology is concerned, I borrowed that from > the Gelugpa centrist school of Tibetan Buddhism. They use it in discussing > concepts, saying, for example, that a chariot is not a "reality", because it > is > merely imputed on the basis of its parts. I thought that you might be aware > of > that terminology, and so I purposely used it as a possibly useful means of > communication with you. You can ignore it. It isn't important. > > > > Michael: > > I see what you mean. If instead of 'things' you would have said 'parts' I > might have got it. In the example of the chariot are you implying that the > chariot is not real but the parts are? Because this is the what the > paramatha/paññatti believers argue, i.e., the being is not real and not existent but the > parts, the khandhas and dhammas are real and existent. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe the Gelugpas would treat the parts similarly, further dividing them into parts upon which they are imputed. Despite their claim to the contrary, I think the Gelugpa approach to Madhyamaka is very close to the concept-only approach of the Vijnaptimatrata school. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30440 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:21am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.2.) Dispassion § 1.2. "And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses." [DN 2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html 30441 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/22/04 11:35:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Swee Boon, > > I think you both are under a misapprehension of what insight into > nama and rupa entails. The idea is to identify as many realities as > possible in one's experience, not make a simple conceptual > distinction between nama and rupa. Interestingly, one whose vehicle > is insight is obliged to go into considerably more detail than one > whose vehicle is serenity. See Vism. ch. XVIII. However, I agree with > Howard that it is not that big a deal. We can do it! So let's go > ahead. Maybe the two Kens can lead the way.---> Ken-do! > > Larry > =========================== You make it sound likea numbers game! ;-)) Now seriously, Larry, how often do you mistake mental for physical or physical for mental? With metta (that's mental, BTW ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30442 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:35am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.2.) Hi all, I just posted the second passage under Dispassion. Comparing to the first passage, I feel that although in both passage what the Buddha taught leads to dispassion, not to passion, the instruction in passage § 1.2. emphasizes the Vinaya, whereas the instruction in § 1.1. emphasizes the Dhamma. Again, the question I have in mind is: What specific qualities in passage § 1.2. of which one may know and may definitely hold as the Teacher's instruction? I wrote to Christine that I understand 'Vinaya' as '(Ethical) Conduct.' After some reflection, I think I would rather characterize/qualify 'Conduct' as 'skillful'/'wholesome'/'kusala' than 'ethical.' Comments are welcome. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Dispassion > > § 1.2. > > "And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a form > with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- > if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye - - > evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail > him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the > nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a > tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the > intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if > he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the > intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress > might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense > faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being > blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses." > > [DN 2] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html 30443 From: Carl Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:13am Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Howard, > >Howard: > This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much > > ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). > > Swee Boon: Might it not occur to you that there are people who have difficulty > distinguishing rupa from nama? > > Regards, > Swee Boon --------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Dear Howard and Swee Boon: Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and fun) concept for me. The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I could not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my idea" of that very same tree. If i touched the tree, that was it, i was touching the tree. My consciousness seemed as one blended reality, a tar pit of everything stuck together. No distinction between what was heard, seen, felt, tasted of smelled. It was all me. I absolutly existed. No doubt about it. I WAS nama/rupa. I think my ignorance is not uncommon. I was definatally a dweller in downtown samsara. The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to hang and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and next to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And look! Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! Now on to the rupa closet. :) Anyway, the more i understand nama/rupa the less it becomes the trap of the tar pit. Then i can move on. Thanks Carl 30444 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:41am Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hello Carl, Swee Boon, Howard, Larry and all, Carl - thank you for this post - I was beginning to feel a little anxious that I was the only one with this 'cognitive disability'. I, too, could understand intellectually some facts - like Rupa is physical phenomena that does not experience anything; and Nama is mental phenomena that experiences something - but still confuse sound and flavour etc. as mental phenomena. Maybe we could form a support group for the Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the Cognitively Abled - that is, if we are not so far beneath their August notice that it prevents them realising we exist? (a little mana, perhaps, Howard :-) - that's mental BTW :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: 30445 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Tiika Vis, note 27, no 2 Note 27, no 2: "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 [concerning bodily intimation] , Note 27 no 2': Text: 'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this. N: The seventh javama-citta originates the intimation expressing a meaning, but, the previous six javana-cittas causing the strengthening and supporting of the body are the decisive support for the seventh one that originates intimation. Text: The stiffening, upholding, and movement are due to the air element associated with the alteration belonging to the intimation, is what is said. N: The alteration: the unique change (vikaara) in the great Elements is bodily intimation. Text: What, is it all the air-element that does all those things? It is not like that. For it is the air-element given rise to by the seventh impulsion that, by acquiring as its reinforcing conditions the air elements given rise to by the preceding impulsions, moves consciousness-originated matter by acting as cause for its successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti--cf. Ch. VIII, n.54), not the others. N: ³given rise to² translates sahita. I prefer belonging to, united with, connected with. The air element connected with, originated from the seventh impulsion (javana). Its successive arisings in adjacent locations. Desantaruppatti: desa: location, antare: in between, uppatti: arising. Refers to Vis. VIII, n. 54: here it is explained that what is stated as a long breath actually consists of many rupas that are arising in adjacent locations. Each rupa (in this case the rupa that is breath produced by citta) falls saway immediately, it could not stay and move on to another location. It only seems so. Text: The others, however, help it by doing the stiffening and upholding, the successive arising in adjacent locations being itself the movement. Text: So the instrumentality should be taken as attributed when there is the sign [of movement]; otherwise there would not be uninterestedness and momentariness of dhammas. N: the Pali does not have instrumentality, this translation is not clear. Kattubhaavo: the state of being an agent. It should be understood that the state of being an agent is effectd (sammaropito) by an image of motion, when there is arising in adjacent locations. Otherwise there would not be uninterestedness and momentariness of dhammas. N: There are only dhammas rolling on because of conditions, they are uninterested, they do not know anything. They are very momentary (kha.nika), they fall away immediately. It just seems that a coloured surface, that hands are moving, but in reality there are different dhammas arising in adjacent locations from moment to moment. Text: And here the cart to be drawn by seven yokes is given as simile in the commentary. N: Expositor I, p. 110: Just before this passage the Expositor stated It indicates that there are countless processes of cittas occurring when there is motion and intimation. Text: But when consciousness-born matter moves, the kinds of matter born of temperature, kamma, and nutriment move too because they are bound up with it, like a piece of dry cow-dung thrown into a river's current. N: The four factors that originate rupa all work together to cause motion. Just like a piece of cowdung that moves along with the river. ******* Nina. 30446 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 ,Larry's Q. no 1 Hi Larry, op 19-02-2004 05:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I see my mistake in interpreting "asabhava rupa". The rupas classified > as without an individual characteristic are so classified because they > are not produced by any of the 4 means of production: kamma, nutriment, > consciousness, temperature. Rather, they are attributes, qualities, > modes of such produced rupa. The Expositor, p. 111: <...because of the commucicableness of qualities set up by consciousness [the rupas originated from the first six javana cittas] intimation may also be said to be produced by consciousness.> L: "Asabhava rupa" has nothing to do with > concepts even though concept plays a role in the 2 intimations. Asabhava > rupas are: space, bodily intimation, vocal intimation, lightness, > malleability, weildiness, production, continuity, decay, impermanence. N: Agreed. L: Therefore, the following has to be interpreted in a different way: > > 27: "'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the > apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention > in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the > apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension > of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of > the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this." > > L: Maybe "previously-established connexion" refers to "There is a > certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of > motion. And the apprehension of the former is next to the apprehension > of the latter. How is that to be known? By the apprehension of > intention."..... > In other words, one apprehends not only the motion of the air element > etc., but also one apprehends a subtle physical indication of intention > that is separate from the motion. You can tell when someone is trying to > communicate something by a gesture, even if you don't understand what > that something is. You can tell an intimating gesture from a > non-intimating gesture by this physical sign of intentionality. This > physical indication of intention, a subtle phenomenon, is "a certain > kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion". N: See my notes to the text, it may be clearer now. When considering this rupa, we may think of the rupa conditioned by the citta of the intimator, or also of the citta of the receiver of intimation. As to the last one: he may understand or not understand. But, the rupa originated from the seventh javanacitta of the intimator occurred, even if the other person or animal did not understand what the meaning was. Nina. 30447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 Larry's Q. 2 Hi Larry, op 19-02-2004 00:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 27: "'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the > apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention > in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the > apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension > of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of > the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this." > > L: "Previously established connexion" I take to be the convention "this > movement signifies this meaning", e.g. holding up my hand in a certain > way signifies "stop". If we disallow all convention and conceptuality in > bodily intimation then what is intimated and why is bodily intimation an > asabhava rupa? N: You made a correction already. As to decisive support: see my analysis of the text. L : "What, is it all the air-element that does all those things? It is > not like that. For it is the air-element given rise to by the seventh > impulsion that, by acquiring as its reinforcing conditions the air > elements given rise to by the preceding impulsions, moves > consciousness-originated matter by acting as cause for its successive > arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti--cf. Ch. VIII, n.54), > not the others. The others, however, help it by doing the stiffening and > upholding, the successive arising in adjacent locations being itself the > movement." > > L: "Others" N: the preceding six javana-cittas. L:and "preceding impulsions" I take to mean the first 6 of the > 7-impulsion series (javana cittas). All 7 of these accomplish the work > of intention, each in slightly different ways. Would you like to explain > a little more? N: Only the seventh expresses intention, but countless pprocesses of cittas accomplish this.Not the preceding six. See my text analysis. L: 27: "So the instrumentality should be taken as attributed when there is > the sign [of movement]; otherwise there would not be uninterestedness > and momentariness of dhammas." > : I don't quite get this but it could be something like: the appearance > of movement should be attributed to the instrumentality of the javana > cittas; otherwise there would be the belief in self as doer and a false > sense of continuousness. N: Right. I discarded instrumentality, because the Pali had: kattu: agent, which is much clearer. Nina. 30448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion ( § 1.1.) Hi Victor, op 22-02-2004 00:41 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... > > "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... > > "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... > > "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... N: I like this sutta. We learn about nama as well as rupa. They both have to be realized as they are so that we can see their danger. Again: all dhammas appearing through the six doors are referred to here. Nina. 30449 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, op 21-02-2004 22:39 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' and `Vinaya' > as `(Ethical) Conduct.' N: I tend to think: Dhamma and Vinaya: the entire teachings. Dhamma: Sutta, Geyya,Veyyaakara.na etc, including also the Abhidhamma: the Tipitaka classified as nine parts (angas) we find explained in the suttanta as quoted by Sarah. Indeed it gives a special ring to me. Nina. 30450 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. Dear Azita, Here the method of the Dependent Origination is used. Vi~n~naa.na is vipaka at rebirth or during life. This conditions cetasikas and rupa (nama and rupa). Nina. op 22-02-2004 03:24 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > In the general intro. to Samyutta Nikaya, p48 B.Bodhi states: > > "It should be noted that in the Nikayas, namarupa does not > include consciousness (vinnana). Consciousness is its condition, and > the two are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds leaning one > against the other (II 114,17-19)" 30451 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hi Victor and all, As far as I can see, the actual qualities aren't named (so far?) - only how to recognise if 'any' quality *is* the Dhamma, the Vinaya, and the Teacher's instruction. "'As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Chrisitne, > > I have some questions on this passage: > > In the Buddha's sermon, for what qualities one may definitely > hold: "This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the > Teacher's instruction."? In other words, what is the Teacher's > instruction in the sermon? > > Be cool. > > Metta, > Victor > 30452 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:15pm Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Ken O, Ken: Are you saying that sati and panna only applies when we meditate. ;-) And suffering only reduce during such meditation. I recall sati and panna is applicable to sitting, eating, drinking etc in the satipathana suttas. It will interesting to hear from your standpoint that I think differ from the sutta. James: I don't believe my viewpoint differs from the Satipatthana Sutta. I believe that you are taking what is described in the Satipattha sutta out of context. The Buddha was describing how to made mindfulness and contemplation an all-day activity for the monk. To state the obvious, you are not a monk. You are a householder with little children running around, a wife, aggravations, explosions of anger, etc. If you think that what the Buddha said in that sutta applies directly to your life, you are kidding yourself. You have chosen to lead a dusty life, not a holy life, so you need to be realistic about where you are. That isn't to say that you can't practice the Buddha's teachings, you can, but you shouldn't think that what the Buddha told his monks in that sutta applies directly to you. That isn't logical or realistic. With that said, the Satipattha Sutta describes sitting meditation that is reinforced and followed through during everyday activities. If there isn't any sitting meditation there won't be the full conditions to follow the practice of mindfulness in everyday activities. This is just common sense. If you can't even focus and calm your mind during sitting meditation, it will be impossible to do so during everyday activities. Additionally, these everyday activities need to have a lot of mindfulness and attention directed toward them to have any development of panna to a significant degree. The Buddha did describe how to have mindfulness during sitting, eating, drinking, etc., but this is pretty much all a monk does all day. A monk doesn't have a job, a car, money, clothes, children, a wife, in-laws, etc., etc., etc., all he has to do all day is be mindful of all of his very few activities. You really think your life can be comparable? I have even less attachments than you do (I think): no kids, no car, no family, no cell phone, no romantic relationships, no sexual relationships, no ties to my surrounding culture, etc., and I still find it difficult to practice the level of mindfulness that the Buddha described in the Satipatthana Sutta. One last word, sati and panna don't come in just one form or variety. There are several different levels of sati and panna. If you don't want to practice sitting meditation, okay, but don't believe that you will have the same level of mindfulness during everyday activities as those who do. Also, don't believe that you will achieve the same levels of sati and panna that meditators do. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking. Of course you can think what you want and do what you want; I am just giving you my opinion since you asked. Metta, James 30453 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.1.) Hi Christine (Victor, James), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Victor and all, > > This sutta also fits in with the Samyutta study corner, and also with > the Vinaya. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note > about its origination, which is below: > > BB: "This sutta, often called "The Fire Sermon", is the third > discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry > at Vin I 34-35. ..... Thanks for giving both translations and for adding all the notes. It's a good plan, Victor. KenO and I were looking at the last part, but it’s always better to have the whole sutta for context. Of course, only the Buddha knew exactly what they needed to hear to drop their wrong views and practices...... >"In the past they worshipped the fire morning and > evening. I will teach them that the twelve sense bases are burning > and blazing. In this way they will be able to attain arahantship." ..... > This sutta fits in very well with the heat wave we are having in S.E. > Queensland. 42 Celsius yesterday - and my aircon isn't working :-) > Dog and I hopped in the airconditioned car and went to visit my Mum > in her airconditioned home. Today has the same prediction. .... I just heard more about the harsh conditions around Brisbane on the news.....Let’s hope your lines haven’t been cut and some cool winds arrive for you all soon. I remember living in S.Australia in heat-waves without any cool relief and it wasn’t much fun. At least the hospital will be air-conditioned..... James, good to see you back in good humour;-) Christine has already set the lead with bhikkhunisamyutta and a very good choice of suttas too. Does anyone have any comments on these or others in this shorter section? Metta, Sarah ===== 30454 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Dear Carl: > Dear Howard and Swee Boon: > Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had > difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much > effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the > map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be > pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and fun) > concept for me. -------------------------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact, Carl, every perception we get for external world is Nama conjoined with Rupa: an easy reference could be rupa as the body and nama as the soul... but at Dhamma we haven´t got such nonsense. Cf The Dhammapada , 380 : The Dhamma has not got an Ego, a self, as a Merchant or his horse, or his refuge or his master. So, Dhamma is Anatta, or, is devoid of Self, as the human law, applied to all citizens without any distinction of this Self or that Self. And at our mind´s realms, Rupa and Nama exist together. I take Nama as the medieval nominalist could take such term: nama is not a metaphisycal "Form" of Matter, is more or less akin of a label we put on our experience of world... and, at the last stand, Rupa and not Nama is a Aramana Dhamma (Cf. Dhammasangani, last chapter). --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I could > not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even > distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a > feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from > that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my idea" > of that very same tree. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Spinoza could try a classification of human feelings at his "Ethica More Geometrico Demonstrata". Nietzsche could try the same at his "Ecce Homo". Buddha prefers a viewpoint at with such affairs are seen as impermanent aggregates of causes and conditions. At the Abhidhamma´s Puggala book we get also a classification of human types. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I was definatally a dweller in downtown > samsara. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It could be better than to be a definitively dweller on Downtown Barra, Rio de Janeiro...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!! But, speaking serious now, it will of no use try to transform Samsara in Nibbana only by means of positive thinking. It doesn´t works at this way, mister! You must get a firm decision to boldly thread up the Path to Nibbana an throw off aside Samsaric tracts. Again The Dhammapada, 75 (Last stanza of Dhammapada V, Baalavagga): there are two distinct ways, the way towards illusory material pleasures - Samsara - and the way towards Nibbana. That´s the question. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to hang > and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar > pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and next > to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And look! > Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! > Now on to the rupa closet. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to Internet, The Abhidhamma field is now more cheaper than seems - it won´t cost to you the proverbial thirty silver coins! Don´t hang yourself in anything you think to be unsecure ...and I hope this words may do you good! Mettaya, Ícaro 30455 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hi Christine, Right, I also think it is not about naming the qualities but seeing that what the Buddha taught in the fire sermon leads to dispassion, not to passion. I think my question was not skillfully formulated. What struck me as I read what the Buddha said is: first, "Monks, the All is aflame," and secondly, "Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs." The sermon as a whole is a very powerful teaching to me. It certainly is the Dhamma that leads to dispassion, not to passion. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor and all, > > As far as I can see, the actual qualities aren't named (so far?) - > only how to recognise if 'any' quality *is* the Dhamma, the Vinaya, > and the Teacher's instruction. > "'As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > to dispassion, not to passion; > to being unfettered, not to being fettered; > to shedding, not to accumulating; > to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; > to contentment, not to discontent; > to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; > to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, > this is the Teacher's instruction.'" > > metta and peace, > Christine 30456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion ( § 1.1.) Hi Nina, It is a very powerful teaching: vivid and powerful imagery. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > op 22-02-2004 00:41 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > > > > "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... > > > > "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... > > > > "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... > > > > "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... > N: I like this sutta. We learn about nama as well as rupa. They both have to > be realized as they are so that we can see their danger. Again: all dhammas > appearing through the six doors are referred to here. > Nina. 30457 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael Read the text again please. The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact - is the person conditioned? Then again the note - 'real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact' Please note that "real and ultimate" here is used to illustrate that whether self exist on its own right that is why it used self dependent. Real and ultimate used in paramatthas is conditional existence and they both carry different meanings. Ken O 30458 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack and James Jack> 1. By having the breath as primary meditation object, the arising of thoughts slow down. I think 99% of all people who have tried meditating can attest to this. k: I dont care the other 99%, my concern is about you. When you first wrote to me When you said you used breath as a meditation subject - that is implying you are focusing and that is controlling. Thoughts can never be slow down, if you can slow down thoughts this mean you can control it. In the suttas, I dont think you can find suttas that said meditations are for slowing of thought. Hence IMHO your meditation is not a correct practise. Jack - 2. As I said in my previous post, I have never met anyone or > read about anyone who has realized the 3 Marks without meditating in a protected environment. Theoretically, it could happen but I don't think it is very likely. James - With that said, the Satipattha Sutta describes sitting meditation that is reinforced and followed through during everyday activities. If there isn't any sitting meditation there won't be the full conditions to follow the practice of mindfulness in everyday activities. This is just common sense. k: This is because both of you do not understand the meaning of satipatthana. When you walk down the street, you meet a beautiful object, if you have to wait later then meditate, the objects will have already condition your future behaviour. If you at the instant known the object as the three characteristic - it would have instantly eradicate lobha and panna. k: Look at the many suttas especially on the six senses, it is describing everyday life. When you meditate, you dont experience sight, what you see as sight in your meditation is only a memory. Do you prefer to meditate on the sense input immediately or prefer to do it in the memory. All our fetters are inflame in passion in the six senses and that is only applicable if you are in daily life momemts and not in meditation bc mediation does not see or taste (i.e. breath meditation). Ken O 30459 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi Howard > > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, and, yes, even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to useful volition. After all, we start where we are. Howard Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' > would sound better to some ears.) > ------------------------------------------------- k: Hmm, I think I have said there is very thin line in distinguishing being conditioned by considering dhamma and one that is being condition by a deliberate action. When he applies his will, it is conditioned by his zeal which is condition by all the way to hearing of dhamma. It is clear that he does not purposedly will, he applied it because of considering of dhamma (conditions condition) > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and effort. > (Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) > ----------------------------------------------- k: When one scrutinizes do one need to purposedly go and scrutinizes. Have you ever suddenly recall an idea and scrutinize it at the moment. After scrutinzes and known it is beneficial, confidence of the dhamma will built up, and that confidence will condition striving and *resolutely* ;-). Ken O 30460 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Michael, ------------------ M: > What I am saying is that the commentators do not openly reject the idea of conditionality -------------------- That's not much of a commendation is it? :-) -------------------- M: > but that there are influences of substantialism in the explanations and words used. ------------------------ So they do (secretly) reject the idea of conditionality! Otherwise, why are you telling us this? What other significance could there be in the purported fact; "there are influences of substantialism in the explanations and words used?" What have been the consequences of the commentators' rejection of conditionality – the most central tenet of the Buddha's explanation of existence? Where have they said anything that teaches non- conditionality? I think Jon has already asked you this, sorry if I've missed the answer. -------------------------- M: > It is by and large the same process that happens in this list were people use the arguments that dhammas are truly real and ultimate existents while at the same time defend the idea that they are conditioned without realizing that both qualifications are mutually exclusive and incoherent. --------------- You keep telling us the definition of an ultimate reality is; `Something that is not subject to conditions.' Has anyone here accepted that definition? From what source did you acquire it? What explanations were given at the time? Why have you never passed those explanations on to us? --------------- M: > For your information, Ken, since you are not familiar with the writings of Nagarjuna, he did not argue that conditions are real. "Real" has the sense of self dependent and in that sense it is a word that does not correctly reflect his thinking and does not reflect the thinking in the suttas either. Phenomena that are co- dependently arisen cannot be classified as real. They occur, can be experienced, can perform functions but are not actually real. They are not unreal either, they just are. > ----------------- Here at dsg, the definition of a reality, is; `something that occurs, can be experienced and performs functions.' So what are we arguing about? Michael, if you don't like our saying "Dhammas are real," then please delete the words, `are real' and insert, `occur, can be experienced, and perform functions' and we will all get along famously. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 30461 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Carl - Thank you for this post of yours. Clearly I spoke too soon and made some unwarranted assumptions, particularly that what is obvious to me need not at all be so to others. I very much regret my use of the expression "cognitive disorder". I thank you for not having taken umbrage at my use of that phrase. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/22/04 2:27:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, c7carl@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" > wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > >Howard: >This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as > being much > >>ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not > much"!). > > > >Swee Boon: Might it not occur to you that there are people who > have difficulty > >distinguishing rupa from nama? > > > >Regards, > >Swee Boon > --------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard and Swee Boon: > Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had > difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much > effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the > map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be > pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and fun) > concept for me. > > The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I could > not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even > distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a > feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from > that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my idea" > of that very same tree. If i touched the tree, that was it, i was > touching the tree. My consciousness seemed as one blended reality, > a tar pit of everything stuck together. No distinction between > what was heard, seen, felt, tasted of smelled. It was all me. I > absolutly existed. No doubt about it. I WAS nama/rupa. I think my > ignorance is not uncommon. I was definatally a dweller in downtown > samsara. > > The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to hang > and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar > pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and next > to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And look! > Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! > Now on to the rupa closet. :) > > Anyway, the more i understand nama/rupa the less it becomes the trap > of the tar pit. Then i can move on. > > Thanks Carl > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30462 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/22/04 2:42:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Carl, Swee Boon, Howard, Larry and all, > > Carl - thank you for this post - I was beginning to feel a little > anxious that I was the only one with this 'cognitive disability'. I, > too, could understand intellectually some facts - like Rupa is > physical phenomena that does not experience anything; and Nama is > mental phenomena that experiences something - but still confuse sound > and flavour etc. as mental phenomena. Maybe we could form a support > group for the Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the > Cognitively Abled - that is, if we are not so far beneath their > August notice that it prevents them realising we exist? > (a little mana, perhaps, Howard :-) - that's mental BTW :-)) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ Actually (truly) - it wasn't mana. It was seriously a matter of not thinking at all that people might significantly confuse nama and rupa. The fact that some do, and it obviously is the case that some do, is still truly surprising to me. Had I realized this to be the case, I would certainly not have used the phrase "cognitive disorder", and, as I wrote to Carl, I regret having done so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30463 From: Eznir Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:51pm Subject: Why is Dhamma subjective? Dear Friends, Why is Dhamma Subjective? To be subjective is to be conscious of the fact. Consciousness (viññána) depends on name & matter(námarúpa) and vice-versa (paticcasamuppáda). Therefore námarúpa together with the consciousness constitute the experience, ie., the phenomena as it is. That is to say that consciousness cannot be with náma alone nor with rúpa alone. Náma together with its associated rúpa is the dependent condition for the relevant type of consciousness to arise. The Dhamma is most explicit in the 8 attainments. But this is not the only way one could realize the Dhamma. Dhamma is being subjective only when what is stated in the Tripitaka which is Náma only(a description of what the Dhamma is), is seen with its associated rúpa for the corresponding consciousness to arise (experiential knowledge) leading to Right Understanding and Right Deliverance. Metta eznir 30464 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Ken O > > I get the sense you are just asking questions to be asking questions. I > don't > think either one of us is getting much out of this. So, this is the last > > questions I will be answering from you for a time. .... Jack, don’t mind our friendly terrier.....most of us have been through his interrogations. I remember in one post to me, soon after he joined DSG, being asked 20 tough questions at one ‘hit’ (or was it 50?). Slowly we all got used to him and we --well, I should say ‘I’ before I get accused again of using a “royal ‘we’”;-)-- missed him a lot when he wasn’t around. [I did think that in a face-to-face meet-up, I might get a ‘so nice to meet you, hope you’re well’ kind of greeting, but instead it was another 20 (or 5O?) rapid-fire questions on intricate details in the Abhidhamma;-)] Actually, it reminds me of a friendly dog that followed me everywhere on the beach in Thailand. I’d be the first out in the mornings and as I’d try to do some stretches, my new friend would insist on getting in the way, digging up the sand and barking if he didn’t approve of the exercise. Then Jon and I’d go for a walk along by the sea shore with Friend-O insisting on keeping us company and attracting all the barks of other mean dogs at the same time. I thought at first that a dive into the surf would do the trick, but then (as Jeff will find out when he resurfaces), Friend-O would be waiting patiently for me to come out, ready to cause more trouble;-). The next day would be the same, but gradually I got used to him and now I’m smiling and wondering if he’ll still be there when I return;-). Truly, Jack, we all sympathise and appreciate your comments and your patience and sincerity in sharing your understanding of ‘practice’ with us. There will be many lurkers on the side-lines in full agreement with what you say, quietly urging you to continue anytime. .... On compassion : > J> If I see clearly, I show compassion and loving kindness toward > > others. This reduces their suffering. .... I appreciate your concern for others and the value you see in developing wisdom and wholesome states in this regard.Please don’t think Ken O is just asking qus for the sake of asking qus. I know this isn’t so, though I might have wondered when I was in the hot-seat;-). .... > k: <...> > then again what is compassion. To me, what I call compassion, is > someone who follow the teachings, attain the path even in the stream > entrant level and teach others how to attain the path. .... Yes, this is the greatest compassion. In this regard, Ken O, I appreciate your compassionate efforts to help us all, however misunderstood they may be;-) Please don’t mind my joking and 'friendly terrier' comments. I have nothing but the greatest respect for your determination to have us all really question our deep-seated views and ideas of practice as you know. Metta, Sarah ===== 30465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Dear Jon, Andy and Howard, op 22-02-2004 08:57 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Andy Wilson wrote: > ... >> "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial >> realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which >> presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) N: And there is another reason. When born in planes where there is no rupa he cannot learn to distinguish nama from rupa, and continue on with the subsequent stages of insight. Nina. 30466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi James, Now your computer is fixed, I resend my post to you. op 19-02-2004 13:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Let me ask you this Q: >> >> If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some > chores/be >> aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental > factors >> in meditation practice, who or what is `trying', `striving' or > making this >> `effort'? > I am, James Mitchell. That personality of 'James' won't be gone > until enlightenment. Till then, "I" keep on trucking on!! ;-)) N: I must admit that you are right. Even if there can be a moment of sati without thinking, there is still an underlying idea of *me*. A. Sujin was reminding us of this all the time. but the most important, I believe, is to realize that we are in this way. It is better to know than not to know! I also learnt another interesting point. It is the latent tendency of wrong view that is only eradicated at enlightenment, but, by the development of insight, stage by stage, this latent tendency is already in the process of being worn away. Now this sutta gets more meaning: it is a sutta Sarah quoted once to you that you liked. I could not get in Thailand B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101: This is said of the fetters, but it can also be said of latent tendencies. Please can you help me with B.B.'s notes? That is, if time allows this; since you have to catch up many mails. Nina. 30467 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] heartbase and insight knowledge Hi Larry, Yes, I understand. He has mastered jhana. He considers the base of those jhanacittas, and this is the heartbase. Not the sensebases. He cultivated jhana to be away from the sense objects. For us, seeing naturally arises and its base is the eyebase. Thus the jhanalabhi also has to know the difference between nama and rupa, he cannot forgo this step. The rupa he considers would be the heartbase. And after that he contemplates other rupas, the four great elements, etc. op 22-02-2004 17:40 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I notice in Vism. XVIII that insight knowledge into rupa begins with > the heart-base for one whose vehicle is serenity. How should we take > this? Should we visualize the heart or brain, notice the tangible > data in the heart area or brain area, or what? N: It has nothing to do with brain. Nina. 30468 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken O, Ken: This is because both of you do not understand the meaning of satipatthana. James: Just because we disagree with you that doesn't mean that we don't understand. Have you ever entertained the possibility that you might be wrong? It seems to me that you are trying to reach a `comfort zone' by cross examining those members here who meditate. What exactly are you trying to prove? I think you need to apply some mindfulness to your hidden motivations in this regard. Ken: When you walk down the street, you meet a beautiful object, if you have to wait later then meditate, the objects will have already condition your future behaviour. James: Hehehe…you have a pretty weird idea of what meditators are like. Meditators don't compartmentalize the dhamma like the followers of K. Sujin do (i.e. effort to clean your house is okay but effort to meditate is not...silly ;-). Meditation is a way to strengthen and center the mind to more naturally see reality whenever and wherever it may be. One is not exclusive of the other. Ken: Look at the many suttas especially on the six senses, it is describing everyday life. James: Look at the many suttas describing meditation. I am not being selective in my understanding of the dhamma, it is pretty apparent that you are. Ken: All our fetters are inflame in passion in the six senses and that is only applicable if you are in daily life momemts and not in meditation bc mediation does not see or taste (i.e. breath meditation). James: Ken, if you can truly see the three characteristics of just one thing, only one thing, that will open the doors to seeing the three characteristics of everything. If you try to see the three characteristics of everything, at the beginning, you will see nothing but yourself. Metta, James 30469 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael & All, --- Michael Beisert wrote: M: > I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu" and > started to read Book I on the Existence of a Personal Entity. I came > across a note on page 54 which has caught my attention, and maybe > someone would care to confirm whether my reading is correct. The > question placed by the Theravadin and the note reads as follows: > > > > [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate > fact - is the person conditioned? > > The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the > nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. > 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been > prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by > conditions. > > .... S: Frankly, I think you’re grasping at straws if a translator comment in a footnote is all you can find to suggest the commentaries conclude that ‘real and ultimate’ or paramattha suggest a self. As others have said, just ignore the misleading translator’s paraphrase in the square brackets. In the more recent commentary translation itself, it only refers to ‘real and ultimate fact’ as defined many times, including here from the dict entry given by Christine: “<-> saccik' attha truth, reality, the highest truth Kvu 1 sq.; DhsA 4 (nearly=paramattha); KhA 102." There is no ‘self’ involved as is made clear in context. A little later in the commentary, we read: “Without self” (upapatti) means deprived of self, of soul, of person. the sense is: even in one and the same quality, there is no ‘person’. Thus the meaning should be understood as said in all the Suttas and Commentaries.” It continues with the examples of ‘butter-jar’ and so on, to show ‘the meaning is not always according to the form of what is said’. I’ve quoted these examples many times. Then it continues: “Even in such expressions as ‘there is the person who works for his own good’ (Diii,232) and so on, there is no such person as bodily and mental aggregates, known in their specific and general senses. Given bodily and mental aggregates, it is customary to say such and such a name, a family. thus, by this popular turn of speech, convention, expression, is meant: “there is the person.” This is the sense here. Hereon it was also said by the Exalted One: “These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, terms of speech, designations in common use in the world.” (Di,263). .... M: > My understanding is that a conditioned thing is the opposite of a self > dependent thing, i.e. a conditioned thing exists by virtue of internal > and external conditions, and apart from those conditions it is > impossible for that thing to exist, while a self dependent thing is > something that does not depend on conditions but depends on something > intrinsic to it for its existence. .... S: Paramattha dhammas (real and ultimate dhammas) depend on conditions to arise, to exist temporarily and to fall. Concepts, illusions (including ideas of self) are not conditioned as they don’t exist except as mere 'convention or expression'. .... M: > My reading of the note is that a real and ultimate fact is a self > dependent fact, i.e. not subject to conditions. Any comments? ... S:See comments above. In another post you wrote (to Howard): >In the example of the chariot are you implying that the chariot is not real but the parts are? Because this is the what the paramatha/paññatti believers argue, i.e., the being is not real and not existent but the parts, the khandhas and dhammas are real and existent.< .... The being is not real and there are no parts of that being. What are taken to be the being, i.e the khandhas, are real and existent. From the Samyutta Nikaya study corner as quoted by Christine: SN I Sagaathaavagga 5 Bhikhunisamyutta 10 Vajiraa <...> "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Maara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations: Here no being is found. [S: no being, no self, no entity, merely 5 khandhas] "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, [S; EXIST - aggregates which are formations, conditioned, arising and falling away] There is the convention 'a being.' [S; conventional truth only - an illusion because of the combination of aggregates]. "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." [S: only aggregates are conditioned, impermanent and unsatisfactory - no being at all]. The suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries are all pointing to exactly the same truths. Metta, Sarah ===== 30470 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is Dhamma subjective? Hi, Eznir - In a message dated 2/22/04 10:54:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, eznir2003@y... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Why is Dhamma Subjective? > > To be subjective is to be conscious of the fact. Consciousness > (viññána) depends on name &matter(námarúpa) and vice-versa > (paticcasamuppáda). Therefore námarúpa together with the > consciousness constitute the experience, ie., the phenomena as it is. > > That is to say that consciousness cannot be with náma alone nor with > rúpa alone. Náma together with its associated rúpa is the dependent > condition for the relevant type of consciousness to arise. > > The Dhamma is most explicit in the 8 attainments. But this is not the > only way one could realize the Dhamma. > > Dhamma is being subjective only when what is stated in the Tripitaka > which is Náma only(a description of what the Dhamma is), is seen with > its associated rúpa for the corresponding consciousness to arise > (experiential knowledge) leading to Right Understanding and Right > Deliverance. > > Metta > > eznir > ============================ I believe that subjectivity - the sense of a knowing subject - is illusory, and, correspondingly, objectivity as well. Now, there is in the worldling the seeming of a subject confronted by objects. That seeming subjective knowing is vi~n~nana, and the seeming corresponding "knowns" are namarupa, and they are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds supporting each other. The potential for such apparent subjectivity and objectivity is the heart of ignorance, the fatal flaw all worldlings have. What is actual is experience, with physical experiences such as sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, and warmth being rupas, and mental experiences such as feelings, thoughts, attention, volitions, emotions, and distractedness being namas. And in experience as it truly is, there is neither subject nor object, but there is, for us worldlings, the *seeming* of both. Ignorance is a necessary condition for sankharic constructing. Sankharic constructing is necessary condition for subjectivity. Subjectivity and objectivity are conditions for each other. The two of these, the knowing and the known together, arise only with sensory activation, and the co-occurrence of the three is contact. With contact as a condition, there arises subject-oriented feeling ("It's pleasant to me" or "It's unpleasant to me" or "It's neutral to me"). With feeling (contaminated by sense of self) as condition there arises craving, which hardens to clinging. Then clinging leads to becoming - a movement in the direction of renewed ignorance (and, at life's end, to a new realm of experience). That rebirth of ignorance is mainly the birth of a new/modified personal identity, and that newborn, beloved and clung-to identity, being impermanent as are all conditioned dhammas, meets with eventual death, a loss of that particular sense of me and mine as conditions change, and there results the entire mass of suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30471 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi James > James: Just because we disagree with you that doesn't mean that we > don't understand. Have you ever entertained the possibility that > you might be wrong? It seems to me that you are trying to reach > a `comfort zone' by cross examining those members here who > meditate. What exactly are you trying to prove? I think you need to apply some mindfulness to your hidden motivations in this regard. k: James, if you can answer my cross examination with the correct answer, I will not bother you with questions of dhamma. It is what I think that you still do not get the gist of what is satipatthana and you are just wondering in circles and that its why I bother you. I may seem arrogant to you, that I cannot help, but I wish to express that you consider what I say. Think deeply what I say and laid down what you have known for years. Just like I laid down my Mahayana that i have learn for seven years and listen to what other have said in this list. I already said I dont disparage others - that will not get anyone anywhere. If you are confident in your own interpretation of the dhammas, you will have answer with ease and with fluency and justifying your position and not say we belong to the *A Sujin* group. If you want, you can cross examine me, test my understanding of the sutta. Even if I dont see the commentary, I have confidence in answering your examinations. That is how much confidence I have. Its ok if you think I am arrogant ;-). > > James: Hehehe…you have a pretty weird idea of what meditators are > like. Meditators don't compartmentalize the dhamma like the > followers of K. Sujin do (i.e. effort to clean your house is okay > but effort to meditate is not...silly ;-). Meditation is a way to > strengthen and center the mind to more naturally see reality > whenever and wherever it may be. One is not exclusive of the other. k: That why I said you do not understand the meaning of satipatthana. You only think the three characteristics can only be study when one in meditation. If you look at MN 10 Satipatthana sutta, this part may support your perspective <<"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him.>> Then how about this part "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. The again this part "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. Then again "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness." - note the word lives (so includes everything not just sitting down) So now you tell me, does satipatthana only apply in sitting down. I do not need the commentary to convince you that satipatthana is not sitting down only. I just using the sati text only. We can go into it word by word if you wish to, to examine whether what I say about satipatthana is correct or not. Ken O 30472 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard, Victor and All, A little more on namas and rupas in the suttas.... .... H: I agree with you, Victor, that making the distinction between > mental > and physical, which, BTW, I think pretty much all human beings do quite > easily > for the most part, is not a suttic teaching of the Buddha's. ..... S: When there is an idea that distinguishing namas from rupas is obvious and common to most people, I think it suggests the deep meaning has not been fully appreciated. At this moment, is there any clear understanding of seeing or visible object? Is the distinction apparent? Are they clearly understood as dhammas, not self? As Swee Boon said, the teaching of and distinction between namas and rupas runs throughout the suttas. SB: “If one can’t even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, how could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right?” S: Without this clear understanding (not just smart thinking), I don't think there cannot be the deeper understanding of the tilakhana, paticca, the 4 Noble Truths which are more advanced understandings of the nature of namas and rupas.** .... H: > Now, if it were said that clearly distinguishing between what is > actual experience and what is illusion is a sign of right understanding, > I would > agree. <....> .... S: Without any direct understanding of namas and rupas, illusions will always be taken for realities as I see it. While the details about the stages of insight are not given in detail in the suttas, often the meaning is implied. For example, in SN, 35:26 (Full Understanding), we read: “Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering.”* .... S:It would seem there is nothing about stages or knowledge or distinguishing of namas and rupas. However, as the commentary note indicates, “in this sutta the three kinds of full understanding are discussed: full understanding of the known, full understanding by scrutinization, and full understanding as abandonment.” B.Bodhi gives cross-references to other suttas and notes which are similar. The three pari~n~naas (kinds of full understanding) are the three kinds of knowledge which refer to the detailed stages of insight given in the commentaries. The first one is ~naata-pari~n~naa and refers to full understanding of the known. In the commentary to the Mulapariyaya sutta, we read about how ‘the defining of mentality-materiality (nama-rupa-vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known’,in other words the first stage of insight. “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully understands the earth element [S: pathavi dhatu] thus: “This is the internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.” ..... S: And so it continues for the other elements, showing how different this understanding is for the ariyan than for the worldling who conceives all sorts of wrong ideas about the elements, taking them for self. As we’ve seen in the Samyutta corner, often a few words in a sutta carry a lot of meaning. I’ve discussed these verses before from SN1:20 (Samiddhi): “Beings who perceive what can be expressed Become established in what can be expressed. Not fully understanding what can be expressed, They come under the yoke of Death. “But having fully understood what can be expressed, One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’ For that does not exist for him By which one could describe him." ..... S: Again, How many of us can appreciate these verses without clarification from the commentaries.? B.Bodhi adds quite a lot of commentary detail here. In brief:”Spk: ‘what can be expressed’ (akkheyya) are the 5 aggregates.... ‘Beings who perceive what can be expressed’ (akkheyyasa~n`nino sattaa): When ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are affected by the ideas of permanence,pleasure, and self, elsewhere called ‘distortions’(vipallaasa, AN 11 52). These distorted perceptions then provoke defilements, on account of which beings ‘become established in what can be expressed’(akkeyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa).’.....” The commentary explains the second verse in a similar way to the first sutta in terms of the 3 pari~n~nas. “Spk: One ‘fully understands what can be expressed’ by way of the three kinds of full understanding: i) by full understanding of the known (~Naatapari~n~naa) one understnds the five aggregates in terms of their individual characteristics etc...” ..... S:In other words, again this is pointing to the stages of insight, starting with the defining of understanding of nama and rupa as explained above. I had other suttas I had also planned to look at, but there is so much detail in each one. It just depends how we read them. In the first sutta quoted, the ‘all’ are the eye, visible object, seeing, eye-contact and just the same realities as described in the sutta Swee Boon quoted (post 30337), the Satipatthana sutta or any other. Hence we see that the development of satipatthana, the knowing of the ‘all’, aka namas and rupas, can be found in any sutta with clear comprehension of the meaning.As Miss Horner stated, the commentary assistance is often essential in this regard. Metta, Sarah *All translations given are Bhikkhu bodhi’s. ** Highly recommended post by Kom on vipassana nana or insight knowledge levels starting with nama-rupa paricheda nana. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23868 ======= 30473 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Larry's nama rupa (was Catching Anger) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I agree. The sutta doesn't explain the stages it mentions. One point: > the knowledge of nama and rupa isn't so much about distinguishing nama > from rupa as it is about the composite nature of nama and the composite > nature of rupa. What initially appears as one is seen to be (experienced > as) many. .... Sorry, Larry, but this makes no sense to me. Maybe you could elaborate. Only ever one reality is known at a time.For example, when there is awareness of seeing or thinking, its characteristic as a nama can be known. There is no doubt at that moment that it is visible object or self that sees. The doubt, the taking for self and so on can follow immediately after whilst the panna is still weak. .. >This is a glimpse of anatta. Of course distinguishing nama > from rupa is a preliminary stage of this process. ... OK. Thanks also for your other reference to M24 and the 7 stages of insight. I’m sorry, but I didn’t find Matara Sri ~Nanarama’s version a simplified one, rather as a very confused one. Metta, Sarah p.s Good work by you and Nina in the Vism corner. ======= 30474 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear James and Sarah, > > When we meet a person, we do not have a particular thought related to > that person.But soon after we are inroduced to that person there the > idea of 'self' has already been introduced along with conventional > introduction. Just thinking. .... I think that as soon as we see 'a person' or hear 'a person', there is thinking and an idea of 'someone' long before any words are formed or any introductions take place. The conceptualising through the mind door follows the sense door experiences very quickly indeed. Metta, Sarah ====== 30475 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, S: I was looking for this post when I came across the other one. Apologies for the delay. I’m glad to get back to our packing, map and journey after a busy weekend. --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Htoo: Breaking the circle up. > > Citta, Cetasika, Rupa at the site of Sankhata Dhatu and Nibbana at > the site of Asankhata Dhatu. > > If you lose yourself and you have been merged with Paramattha, yes > there are only 3 things in the circle. And the breaking of the circle > again has to do with these 3 things again. .... S: Whether we talk or don’t talk about cittas, cetasikas and rupas, whether they are known or unknown, still there are only these realities existing, wouldn’t you agree? .... > But if you have not lost yourself and you are talking cittas, > cetasikas and rupas, you are learning theories of cittas, cetasikas, > and rupas. But not other certain way. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: I understand you’re saying that theory and practice are differnt. I agree. Still, the truths remain the same. Ultimately there is no self existing at all - no self to be lost or anything else. It never existed in the first place except in our imaginations. .... > Htoo: While you are living in Pannatta domain your talk on Paramattha > would be different. Someone once wrote, ' A citta and a group of > cetasikas enter a room '. > --------------------------------------------------------------... S:;-) Even an arahant ‘lives in pannatta domain’ in the sense of having to use pannatti - just no misconceptions. It’s not a case of the language, but the understanding behind it. -------- > Htoo: Learn on the way. Arising is conditions related. No one can > choice. As you said, there was no Sumedho but citta and a group of > cetasikas and pannindriya cetasika arose. Cittas and Cetasikas arose > and fell away continuously and Cittas and Cetasikas failed to arise > over 2600 years back. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with the first part, but don’t understand the last sentence. .... -------- > Htoo: Got it. But you seem eradicated Atta but still with traces. > Even though you have thrown away it will creep in back into your bag. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: yes, there can be a moment of understanding now of seeing or feeling or visible object and this can be immediately followed by the idea of a thing or ‘my understanding’. It can sneak in anytime. -------- > Htoo: So you have right materials? > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: What are the right materials? I’m not sure ‘we’ ever have them or that they can be collected at the outset. If there are the right conditions, don’t fear, they’ll arise accordingly. In your new series (sensing dhamma 02), you mention ‘contemplation on dhamma has to arise when dhamma in different situations have been well recognized.’ However, then you go on to discuss how ‘at first, the meditator practised breathing meditation on his breath. In doing so, there develops some achievement.’ As you continue to explain, all the realities are in fact namas and rupas and you’ve said in this post ‘Arising is conditions related. No one can choice’. So my question is, what is the purpose of practising breathing meditation and what is the special achievement? I hope this doesn’t sound impolite or disrespectful. I’m still trying to understand your tools and map and the reasons for the ‘choices’;-) .... -------- > Htoo: I really appreciate your kind communication. > > May you be free of wrong view. > > With Unlimited Metta, .... S:Thank you Htoo. These are very kind wishes,especially the wishing that we may be free of wrong view. Metta, Sarah p.s I like your comments about the five niyamas in another thread. ===================== 30476 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Hi Andy, --- Andy Wilson wrote: > Andy: When I read this I laughed out loud at my expression > 'transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil' because it sounds > so pompous :) ..... S: :) It’s a good sign that you’re laughing at your own words I think. ... A:>I think that by 'western soil' I really only meant 'my > mind', which, of course, is full of views and asssumptions i took from > the culture i was born into. i'm embarrased to have used such a cliche > ;) .... S: Sometimes when I read over my posts I feel embarrassed too. Usually it’s just an indication of mana (conceit or pride - waving a banner and finding ourselves important);-) .... > Andy: I really hope I haven't given any other impression. Painful and > angry feelings have very much been mixed in with the feelings of love > and care I have for my (ex-)partner. The problem has been to control all > those feelings so that they aren't overwhelming, which is like taming a > bag of fleas. .... S:Control is a BIG topic here. Anything I say will be a minority view and fully supported by the texts whatever Victor and others tell you to the contrary;-) ;-) Conventionally we can talk about controlling our feelings, but in truth, they arise and fall as a result of a complexity of conditions. Being distressed that they aren’t better ‘controlled’ just adds more aversion (dosa) to the heap. Understanding with detachment is the key, I think. .... >In reality so-called 'opposite' feelings mingle and give > rise to one another. Sometimes the feeling of anger is there *because* > of feelings of love: ie. I'm angry because my love is no longer > reciprocated, and my partner's love is now for someone else. .... S: Attachment is the 2nd Noble Truth - the cause of suffering. Clinging love with expectations always brings distress. Of course, we all experience this kind of love and attachment countless times a day. .... > In a > perfect world I'd feel love without risking rejection, sadness, etc. The > problem is that the feelings of love I do have aren't based in > equanimity but are bound up instead with my clinging to self, where i > *identify* with the feeling, so that if it isn't reciprocated my > existence itself seems threatened. ..... S: Exactly. Try looking in UP under ‘Love’ and ‘Metta’ to see the distinction. The following is from one of my favourite suttas: >After King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was no one dearer than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5-1, ‘Dear’ (Masefield trans): ‘Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately to others- therefore one desiring self should not harm another.’< .... >If I identify with my self then any > threat to it is a threat to my existence. This is frightening to the > extent that I cling to my 'self' as being my existence (what i 'really > am'). I can accept the idea of anatta conceptually but still be > overwhelmed with panic when i feel my 'identity' threatened. .... S: That’s because it seems there is something to be lost. All that will ever be lost with any growth of wisdom is the wrong view and attachment to an illusion. With or without the Buddha’s teachings it can be tested and seen that there are only the sense door experiences and the mind door experiences. .... > Andy: This practical, piecemeal attitude sounds attractive. I'm > constantly amazed at my ability to leap into new ideas, draw conclusions > and pass judgement, sorting them into 'good' and 'bad' ideas, long > before i've any real grasp of what they mean. i do the same with people > too :) .... S: We all do. There’s almost complete ignorance of the realities we’re experiencing now (I’m using we conventionally) and yet we have the conceit to think we can understand others;-) No problem, there can be understanding developed even when we’re ‘leaping into new ideas’ or ‘passing judgement’. Just kinds of thinking (namas). .... > That reminds me of something that occured to me of late: the way > we construct our sense of others based on our own prejudice and > obsessions, and how we impose this sense on them, forcing them to fit > our projected sense of our own self. I mean, we not only construct our > own identity mistakenly but do the same for others too. ..... S: Attachment and expectations again.... very, very common;-) .... >No matter how > close we are to them or for how long we've known them this needs > constant attention because we are always being pulled that way, like a > planet pulled in toward its star. ..... S: This is why the Dhamma and the understanding of realities is the only true refuge. Don’t be too hard on yourself - the same problems are common to all of us. .... > As well as trying to control hurtful feelings about the end of > the relationship (or rather, to stop them controlling me) I think I need > to address this question, which has less to do with how I feel about > myself than how I see others. I'd like to learn how to let others be > without forcing them into my idea of what and who they are (and I tend > to be just this sort of controlling person). ..... S: This is why it’s important to understand anatta means nothing can be controlled in an ultimate sense. Can you stop hurtful feelings arising? Impossible, otherwise, we’d all do it. .... > My regret is that I've lived with someone I love for seven years > now and didn't know how to let them be happy on their own terms, so that > I could support them in this rather than moulding them to my own > understanding. .... S: So regret is more dosa.Living in the past instead of letting it go. Join our Samyutta Nikaya corner: SN1:10 (Forest) “They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. “Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down.” .... >I feel that despite my love for that person I let them > down due to ignorance, inexperience and clinging. I find myself wishing > hard that I could have made them happier: not to stop them from leaving > now but really so that I could have given them more happiness in the > time we did have together. It strikes me that to love someone and yet > treat them this way is the definition of 'unskilled'. .... S: It’s all gone like a puff of smoke. No need to be a ‘dried up fool’. Just let it go. Only the present moment and realities ever exist and if there’s a lot of thinking and regretting now, it’s quite useless. Crying over spilt milk as Nina says;-) ..... > Andy: This seems to me to be an excellent point - without tradition > there'd be nothing to transmute. I am learning to love this 'artful', > practical streak in Buddhism. I read something in the AS this morning > that made me laugh out loud for similar reasons; > > "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial > realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which presupposes > the ear faculty" (III, #21c) ..... S: or the eye faculty for internet reading;-) Good quote. Pls keep adding your selected quotes. .... > > of course! you need ears in order to hear the dhamma! i don't know why > that seems funny, but it's like someone saying something very profane > and down-to-earth in church. > > on that slightly brighter note than my usual... .... S: That’s great. It’s another real cliche, but sometimes very good things do come out of very difficult things and your keen interest in the Dhamma seems like a very good thing for you and us;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Keep writing - it can be very therapeutic in itself. ============ 30477 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:13am Subject: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Robert K and Everyone, This is an excerpt from a discussion on Dhamma List. We can't find the actual sutta that this quote comes from and the person that originally made the quote Stephen Hilliard has suggested I ask here. Any help would be appreciated. ------------------------------------ "--- In dhamma-list@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > CF:> >It's a pity that the sutta ref. can't be found > Stephen: > If you wish perhaps you can ask on DSG; Robert K, among others, is quite good > at this sort of thing. I hope he's well, and remember him with pleasure. > Please say Hello for me." ---------------------------------------- QUOTE: "On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this teaching?" Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha praised him for it. "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing." http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/food6.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30478 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Christine, Give my regards to Stephen; may his faith in the Triple gem continue to grow. This is probably the sutta he is looking for: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=097 Dhammapada Verse 97 Thirty bhikkhus from a village had arrived at the Jetavana monastery to pay homage to the Buddha. The Buddha knew that the time was ripe for those bhikkhus to attain arahatship. So, he sent for Sariputta, and in the presence of those bhikkhus, he asked, "My son Sariputta, do you accept the fact that by meditating on the senses one could realize Nibbana ?" Sariputta answered, "Venerable Sir, in the matter of the realization of Nibbana by meditating on the senses, it is not that I accept it because I have faith in you; it is only those who have not personally realized it, that accept the fact from others." Sariputta's answer was not properly understood by the bhikkhus; they thought, "Sariputta has not given up wrong views yet; even now, he has no faith in the Buddha." Then the Buddha explained to them the true meaning of Sariputta's answer. "Bhikkhus, Sariputta's answer is simply this; he accepts the fact that Nibbana is realized by means of meditation on the senses, but his acceptance is due to his own personal realization and not merely because I have said it or somebody else has said it. Sariputta has faith in me; he also has faith in the consequences of good and bad deeds." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Sariputtatthera Vatthu Assaddho akatannu ca sandhicchedo ca yo naro hatavakaso vantaso1 sa ve uttamaporiso. Verse 97. He who is not credulous, who has realized the Unconditioned (Nibbana), who has cut off the links of the round of rebirths, who has destroyed all consequences of good and bad deeds, who has discarded all craving, is indeed the noblest of all men (i.e., an arahat). At the end of the discourse, all those bhikkhus attained arahatship. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert K and Everyone, > > This is an excerpt from a discussion on Dhamma List. We can't find > the actual sutta > ------------------------------------ > "--- In dhamma-list@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > CF:> >It's a pity that the sutta ref. can't be found > > > Stephen: > If you wish perhaps you can ask on DSG; Robert K, among > others, is quite good > > at this sort of thing. I hope he's well, and remember him with > pleasure. > > Please say Hello for me." > ---------------------------------------- > QUOTE: > "On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening > respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the > Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this > teaching?" > Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this > is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took > note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he > was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because > he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the > Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't > believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being > rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha > praised him for it. > "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he > should consider first before believing." > http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/food6.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30479 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Dear Eznir (& Philip), S:You’ve picked up on the thread of ‘directing’ attachment in ‘as wholesome a direction as possible’. Yours is a very interesting post. Let me know if I misunderstand as I feel I may be. --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah & Philip. > > "Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, > that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, > there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. When a person > makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result > is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the > opportunity for the right ending of stress." > [Lonaphala Sutta AN-III.99 ] .... S:I just read the full sutta. (PTS ‘A grain of salt’ and it’s a really excellent one - relevant to the Anugulimala and others along the ‘justice of kamma’ lines. The grain of salt relates to the examples given of throwing a grain of salt into a cup of water and into the Ganges. the effect is quite different as is the performing of a small misdeed in one who is careless in body, habits and thoughs and who has not developed insight as opposed to one who develops insight and becomes fully enlightened. Do you have a link for others to read in full? ..... E:> One of the differences between a Puthujjana(ordinary person) and a > Sekha(one in training) is the Kamma, ones actions. The actions of a > Puthujjana is misdirected with respect to Nibbana. While that of a > Sekha is directed towards Nibbana, the goal. Therefore whenever one > performs an action it should be directed. .... S: Certainly for the sekha there is no more wrong view and I suppose we can say as you do that the actions are ‘directed towards Nibbana’ in the sense that it’s just a matter of time before all defilements are finally eradicated and samsara comes to an end. Still, I don’t think we can talk about unwholesome actions being directed in a wholesome direction. Who does this directing? How can anything unwholesome be changed or directed once it’s arisen and fallen away? .... E: > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, > with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma". > [Kamma Sutta SN-XXXV.145 ] > > And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? > Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right > speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right > mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice > leading to the cessation of kamma. " > [Kamma Sutta SN-XXXV.145 ] > > And how does one direct kamma? Through ones intentions. Intention is > action. First having intended one acts. The direction of this > Intention should be towards practicing the noble 8-fold path. Why? > Because it leads to the cessation of Kamma, ie., Nibbana. ..... S: Howard will like these comments a lot;-) My difficulty with them is that while I agree that ‘intention is action’, intention (cetana cetasika) is also conditioned. Who or what directs this intention? In another thread on nama and rupa, I think you suggested that the difference between these ‘is not in the things in itself....It is our mental fabrications that construct various stories about the things we cognize’. I think I partly agree and partly disagree, if I understan correctly. Namas and rupas are always distinct, but as you say various stories are constructed around these. I’ll leave it there as I may be misrepresenting you. Look f/w to any comments. Apologies in advance for delayed responses. Metta, Sarah ===== 30480 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Christine, Here are two more suttas where the Buddha and Sariputta discuss the faculty of saddha (faith) From Nina van Gorkom's book 'Conditions' """The faculty of panna overcomes ignorance of the four noble Truths. The five spiritual faculties have to be developed together so that the four noble Truths can be realized. These faculties will not develop merely by having faith in one's teacher, one has to develop them oneself. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (V, Book IV, Kindred Sayings on the Faculties, Ch V, §4, Eastern Gatehouse) that the Buddha, while he was staying at Savatthi, in Eastern Gatehouse, asked Sariputta: "Do you believe, Sariputta, that the controlling faculty of faith... of energy... of mindfulness... of concentration... that the controlling faculty of insight, if cultivated and made much of, plunges into the Deathless, has the Deathless for its goal, the Deathless for its ending?" The "Deathless" is nibbana. We read that Sariputta answered: "In this matter, lord, I walk not by faith in the Exalted One, to wit: that the controlling faculty of faith... of energy... of mindfulness... of concentration... that the controlling faculty of insight, if cultivated and made much of, plunges into the Deathless, has the Deathless for its goal, the Deathless for its ending. They, lord, who have not realized, not seen, not understood, not made sure of, not attained this fact by insight,-- such may well walk by faith in others (in believing) that the controlling faculty of faith... that of insight, if cultivated and made much of, may so end. But, lord, they who have realized, seen, understood, made sure of, they who have attained this fact by insight,-- such are free from doubt, free from wavering, (in believing) that the controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of insight, if cultivated and made much of... will so end. But I, lord, have realized it, I have seen, understood and made sure of it, I have attained it by insight, I am free from doubt about it, that the controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of insight, does plunge into the Deathless, has the Deathless for its goal, the Deathless for its ending." We then read that the Buddha approved of Sariputta's words. We read in the same section of the "Kindred Sayings" (§10, Faith) that the Buddha, while staying among the Angas at Market, asked Sariputta: "Tell me, Sariputta, could an ariyan disciple who is utterly devoted to, who has perfect faith in the Tathagata,-- could an ariyan disciple have any doubt or wavering as to the Tathagata or the Tathagata's teaching?" Sariputta said that the ariyan disciple who has perfect faith in the Tathagata could have no doubt as to the Tathagata or his teaching and that he develops the controlling faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and insight. We read that he said about the controlling faculty of insight: "Again, lord, of a faithful ariyan disciple who is established in mindfulness, whose thought is tranquillized, this may be expected: he will fully understand `A world without end is the round of rebirth. No beginning can be seen of beings hindered by ignorance, bound by craving, who run on, who fare on through the round of rebirth. The utter passionless ceasing of ignorance, of this body of darkness, is this blissful state, this excellent state, to wit:- the calming down of all the activities, the giving up of all bases (for rebirth), the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbana.' His insight, lord, is the controlling faculty of insight. Lord, that faithful ariyan disciple, thus striving and striving again, thus recollecting again and again, thus again and again composing his mind, thus clearly discerning again and again, gains utter confidence, when he considers: `As to those things which formerly I had only heard tell of, now I dwell having experienced them in my own person: now by insight have I pierced them through and see them plain.' Herein, lord, his confidence is the controlling faculty of confidence." We then read that the Buddha approved of Sariputta's words."""" Robertk > ---------------------------------------- > QUOTE: > "On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening > respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the > Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this > teaching?" > Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this > is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took > note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he > was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because > he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the > Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't > believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being > rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha > praised him for it. > "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he > should consider first before believing." > http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/food6.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30481 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Toby, This post is just an excuse for me to say I'm really glad to see you posting after a long break and delighted that you've joined in the Vism corner. Pls keep up your comments and qus. --- torloff87048 wrote: > The same is true of the even more difficult to grasp heart-base: It > is directly known as heat in the cavity of the heart while citta and > cetasika are present. This is the reason the heart-base is said to > be the blood in the cavity of the heart. There is a reference for > this in the Canon but unfortunately I can't locate it- I think I came > across it somewhere in Conditional Relations (which does not have an > index in my edition!). ..... I find the same thing rather frustrating about Conditional Relations (Patthana). I assume it's this and not the 'Guide to Conditional Rels' you're referring to? I'd be interested to hear which you are looking at. Actually, at the end of the 2nd vol of the former, there's a short index of first occurrence of a Pali term, but it's rather unsatisfactory and at a quick look now, it doesn't list 'haddaya'. In the Guide (also no index), there is quite a lot of detail under 'base object prenascence dependent condition' of which heart-base is the only conditioning state. P32. I think the reference you refer to was in the Vism, ch X1V which we read about not so long ago. You may also like to look at the posts under 'heart' in UP and add any comments and let us know of reasons for your interest in this area: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 30482 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Hello Rob, Many thanks :-) - I've put the links to your two posts on DL for Stephen and others to read. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 30483 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Christine, There is also the Sampasadaniya Sutta, number 28 of the Digha Nikaya but which isn't on the web yet. best robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Rob, > > Many thanks :-) - I've put the links to your two posts on DL for > Stephen and others to read. > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 30484 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken, Ken: James, if you can answer my cross examination with the correct answer, I will not bother you with questions of dhamma. James: Okay Johnnie Cochran, you might as well give up because I'm not budging! ;-)) Ken: It is what I think that you still do not get the gist of what is satipatthana and you are just wondering in circles and that its why I bother you. James: Ken, I already wrote you a very long post explaining the Satipatthana Sutta and you did not directly respond to the main part of it. My discourse to you has been very direct and to the point. Deal with each issue I raise and don't gloss over the ones you don't agree with and then it will be apparent that I am not wandering in circles about anything. Ken: I may seem arrogant to you, that I cannot help, but I wish to express that you consider what I say. James: I haven't written that you seem arrogant to me. I haven't even thought that. Actually, if anything I agree with Sarah's recent post where she characterized you as a barking terrier: you are cute and endearing at certain times and a complete nuisance at other times (I bet Sarah is regretting that post now! ;-)). Ken: Think deeply what I say and laid down what you have known for years. Just like I laid down my Mahayana that i have learn for seven years and listen to what other have said in this list. James: No thank you. Ken: I already said I dont disparage others - that will not get anyone anywhere. If you are confident in your own interpretation of the dhammas, you will have answer with ease and with fluency and justifying your position and not say we belong to the *A Sujin* group. James: I am not disparaging anyone; I am just calling it as I see it. Show me one person who values meditation and also admires the teaching of K. Sujin (and I don't give her the `Ajahn' title; she isn't a nun) and I will retract what I say about her `group'. Obviously, to me, she is teaching something that is very odd and contrary to the dhamma. She may be as nice as pie, I don't know, but I am not evaluating her as a person. I evaluate what she teaches based on what I see in her followers. Ken: If you want, you can cross examine me, test my understanding of the sutta. Even if I dont see the commentary, I have confidence in answering your examinations. That is how much confidence I have. Its ok if you think I am arrogant ;-). James: Well, I didn't think you were arrogant but this statement is starting to give me different thoughts. I don't feel the need to cross examine you about anything. That would be silly. Next you will be challenging me to a bake off! ;-)) How about a Pali spelling bee?? ;-)) Ken: So now you tell me, does satipatthana only apply in sitting down. I do not need the commentary to convince you that satipatthana is not sitting down only. James: No, it doesn't apply to only sitting meditation. It applies to all daily activities. I explained this all in my past post. Please re-read it and get back to me. Metta, James 30485 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James K: Since you said that I did not response to your long mail, here I go James: If you think that what the Buddha said in that sutta applies directly to your life, you are kidding yourself. You have chosen to lead a dusty life, not a holy life, so you need to be realistic about where you are. That isn't to say that you can't practice the Buddha's teachings, you can, but you shouldn't think that what the Buddha told his monks in that sutta applies directly to you. That isn't logical or realistic. K: Do monks eat, drink and sleep like you or you are different from them. Do monks see, hear, smell, taste, touch, like you or you are different from them ;-). If there is such difference, then you are right, satipatthana is for the monks and not everyone. If not, it is for everyone. J: With that said, the Satipattha Sutta describes sitting meditation that is reinforced and followed through during everyday activities. If there isn't any sitting meditation there won't be the full conditions to follow the practice of mindfulness in everyday activities. This is just common sense. If you can't even focus and calm your mind during sitting meditation, it will be impossible to do so during everyday activities. K: That is why you miss the gist of satipatthana. We may have more duties than the monks, that does not mean we cannot practise mindfullness. I never heard mindfullnes is only exclusive for those doing meditation or for monks. Have you seen the earlier mail which I quote the from the sati sutta the word “live”. J: Additionally, these everyday activities need to have a lot of mindfulness and attention directed toward them to have any development of panna to a significant degree. The Buddha did describe how to have mindfulness during sitting, eating, drinking, etc., but this is pretty much all a monk does all day. A monk doesn't have a job, a car, money, clothes, children, a wife, in-laws, etc., etc., etc., all he has to do all day is be mindful of all of his very few activities. You really think your life can be comparable? I have even less attachments than you do (I think): no kids, no car, no family, no cell phone, no romantic relationships, no sexual relationships, no ties to my surrounding culture, etc., and I still find it difficult to practice the level of mindfulness that the Buddha described in the Satipatthana Sutta. K: There again you miss the point, monk is as human as you. Then again are you saying that being mindful of the six sense need a specialised training. Because you think it must start with meditation that is why you have problem practising it in living moments. There is different level of sati and panna but it does not mean one purposedly have to do something or do activities that reach that level(assuming that level is those you have experience in you meditation). All levels come naturally when right conditions arise. Don't have a misconception that we must practise a level of mindfullness. I said again, satipatthana is living it and not to wait to live in it. Ken O 30486 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Victor > Again, the question I have in mind is: > What specific qualities in passage § 1.2. of which one may know and > > may definitely hold as the Teacher's instruction? k: The qualities are having know the three characteristic in all the six senses. What do you expect more ;-)? Ken O 30487 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:17am Subject: sexual misconduct Hi all I have read the useful post. I got this question from a friend which I felt loss of words. In ancient a householder can have a few wives and now only one wife, so if a householder have another "mistress" in modern time, is it sexual misconduct. Then again he asked about lesbain and homosexual. Comments please Ken O 30488 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy: To Nina and Sarah Dear Sarah, Nina, Mike B and all How are you? Michael B wrote: "I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu"" Suan: Glad to hear the good news. Michale B also quoted: " The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions." Suan: Sorry to hear the bad news. I have never read something like "self dependent (attam pa.ticca)" as the position of the standard Pali commentaries. Interpreting of the terms "real" and "ultimate" as "self dependent" reads like Vedic and Vedantic statement, and thus must have come from Mrs Rhys-Davids. Sarah replied to Mike B: S: Frankly, I think you're grasping at straws if a translator comment in a footnote is all you can find to suggest the commentaries conclude that `real and ultimate' or paramattha suggest a self. As others have said, just ignore the misleading translator's paraphrase in the square brackets. Suan: I agree with Sarah. Mike B, please do not count on a translator's comment in a footnote who did not provide the actual Pali equivalent terms for "self dependent". Something like "attam pa.ticca" is not part of the teaching on the Dependent Origination (Pa.ticcasammuppaada). One of the translators of Kathaavatthu, Mrs Rhys-Davids, was a very well-known supporter of self view. She was a very popular ally of what has now come to be known as Vedantist Buddhism. The followers of Vedantist Buddhism love her mistranslations of the term "attam" from Pali Suttams. There are also modern Pali scholars such as Dr Peter Masefield and Professor Peter Harvey who have been influenced by Mrs Rhys-Davids. Professor David Kalupahana also did not escape from her influences because he, too, got his doctorate from the University of London. The common characteristics of Neo-Rhys-Davidsites such as those scholars are their backward leaning towards Vedas and Vedanta and their dislike and disrespect for Aacariya Buddhaghosa because the standard Pali commentaries always prevent them from interpreting Pali Suttams as they please and as though Pali texts supported their theist views. You may need to exercise extreme caution when you read the works of those neo-Rhys-Davidsites, be they their translations or their originals. This, of course, is only if you yourself (personal reflexive pronoun) have not been already infected by their self view or person view or theist view. Mind you, neo-Rhysdavidsites are persuasive writers as Mrs Rhys-Davids was. Gotama the Buddha's teachings on selflessness (anatta) provoke very strong reaction from Vedic and Vedantic theists such as Mrs Rhys- Davids and neo-Rhys-Davidsites. Due to this strong emotional reaction (domanassa), they formed something like a group that advocates dislike and disrespect for the standard Pali commentaries because these commentaries preserve the teachings of selflessness (anatta), beinglessness (nissatta), personlessness (nippuggala), and soulessness (nijjiiva) with no room for distortion and theist interpretations. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Michael & All, S: Frankly, I think you're grasping at straws if a translator comment in a footnote is all you can find to suggest the commentaries conclude that `real and ultimate' or paramattha suggest a self. As others have said, just ignore the misleading translator's paraphrase in the square brackets. > The suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries are all pointing to exactly the > same truths. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 30489 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Now your computer is fixed, I resend my post to you. > op 19-02-2004 13:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > Let me ask you this Q: > >> > >> If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some > > chores/be > >> aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental > > factors > >> in meditation practice, who or what is `trying', `striving' or > > making this > >> `effort'? > > I am, James Mitchell. That personality of 'James' won't be gone > > until enlightenment. Till then, "I" keep on trucking on!! ;-)) > N: I must admit that you are right. Even if there can be a moment of sati > without thinking, there is still an underlying idea of *me*. A. Sujin was > reminding us of this all the time. but the most important, I believe, is to > realize that we are in this way. It is better to know than not to know! > I also learnt another interesting point. It is the latent tendency of wrong > view that is only eradicated at enlightenment, but, by the development of > insight, stage by stage, this latent tendency is already in the process of > being worn away. > Now this sutta gets more meaning: it is a sutta Sarah quoted once to you > that you liked. I could not get in Thailand B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101: > on the bank for six months owing to the failure of water in the dry season, > its rigging is spoiled by wind and sun: then, overstrung by a shower in the > rainy season, it is easily weakened and rots away. > Even so, monks, in a monk who dwells attentive to self-training the fetters > ar easily weakened and rot away.> > This is said of the fetters, but it can also be said of latent tendencies. > Please can you help me with B.B.'s notes? That is, if time allows this; > since you have to catch up many mails. > Nina. On an intellectual level I know that my body isn't myself; I know that the five aggregates aren't a part of myself or that I am composed of the five aggregates. In other words, I know that the lights are on but no one is home! ;-)) But this knowledge is really only intellectual at this point. Through my years of study and meditation practice, `James' has decreased more and more; I do see that. `James' is just a shadow of who he used to be, but he is still a shadow. I don't meditate to find `James' or to reinforce `James', actually, quite the opposite. I meditate to directly know the truth of life because I know that it can't be known at simply an intellectual level. I don't have any goals about what I hope to achieve because I don't even know what it is possible to achieve. If anything, I guess I have the goal to become more fully human, in whatever way that means. Nina, I am sorry but I can't quite follow this reference you give. Where is this sutta found? I can't follow "B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101". I seem to always have a problem with this because different methods are used to cite sources from Buddhist texts. If you, or anyone else could give me a helpful pointer, that would be great. I am not sure what kind of help you would like with B.B.'s notes but I can't even begin unless I can find them. ;-) Metta, James 30490 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:55am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > > K: Since you said that I did not response to your long mail, here I > go I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with you because I find your responses to be irrational, over-emotional, and borderline discourteous. I am afraid that if I respond again it will only get worse. Therefore, I am going to practice Noble Silence with you. I wish you the best and to only find happiness in all that you do. Metta, James 30491 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Sarah (and Victor) - In a message dated 2/23/04 2:39:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Victor and All, > > A little more on namas and rupas in the suttas.... > .... > H: I agree with you, Victor, that making the distinction between > >mental > >and physical, which, BTW, I think pretty much all human beings do quite > >easily > >for the most part, is not a suttic teaching of the Buddha's. > ..... > S: When there is an idea that distinguishing namas from rupas is obvious > and common to most people, I think it suggests the deep meaning has not > been fully appreciated. > > At this moment, is there any clear understanding of seeing or visible > object? Is the distinction apparent? Are they clearly understood as > dhammas, not self? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there is a an understanding of and noting visual object, and there also is a noting of the knowing of it (though I think that separation of subject and object is illusory - a mental breaking up of nondual experience into knowing subject and known object). And, yes, these are *understood* as not self, but the sense of self remains - and that will be so until subjectivity (and objectivity) dissolves upon becoming an arahant. The mind of the worldling (in fact, of the non-arahant) produces an "internal subject" and "external objects" that are not actually existent. These perceptual constructs are mental, not physical. I don't take them for realities. But this issue is largely different from knowing mental as mental and material as material. This is largely the issue of distinguishing reality from illusion. ------------------------------------------------- > > As Swee Boon said, the teaching of and distinction between namas and rupas > runs throughout the suttas. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: They are not *confused* in the suttas, any more than sight, sounds, tastes,and smells are confused with each other. But it is not in the suttas that the emphasis on distinguishing nama from rupa as an enlightenment stage is made. ---------------------------------------------------- > > SB: “If one can’t even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, > how could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right?â€? > > S: Without this clear understanding (not just smart thinking), I don't > think there cannot be the deeper understanding of the tilakhana, paticca, > the 4 Noble Truths which are more advanced understandings of the nature of > namas and rupas.** -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly agree that if one cannot distinguish well, and under most circumstances, between mental and physical, one will likely have difficulty making other important distinctions. And, as you say, the distinguishing should be a matter of direct experioence, and not just an intellectual belief based on thinking. BTW, there is one circumstance in which the distinguishing of nama and rupa *may* be faulty, and that is during the dream state - or, perhaps not faulty. Even in a lucid dream, when one knows with certainty "This is a dream", the apparent sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and touchings appear *no different* from those during the waking state - they are all apparently physical experiences. And at the same time, there arise in the mind thoughts, feelings, desires, volitions, emotions etc that are mental. However, I cannot say with certainty that the apparently physical dream experiences do not constitute physical experience. They certainly do not seem to fall into the same category as the clearlymental dream-state experiences. I think they may constitute physical experience, and that the main thing about them that is different from waking physical experience is that they are (normally) completely private, with no intersubjecivity in effect. (As you know, whether waking or dreaming, I don't hypothesize an "external world" independent of experience. But that isn't very relevant to this matter anyway, for even if it did exist, what is experienced is just experience, and an alleged "external reality" is only hypothesized, not known.) --------------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: > Now, if it were said that clearly distinguishing between what > is > >actual experience and what is illusion is a sign of right understanding, > >I would > >agree. <....> > .... > S: Without any direct understanding of namas and rupas, illusions will > always be taken for realities as I see it. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Without direct distinguishing of namas from rupas, there is already a serious illusion - I certianly agree. Attention, feeling, love, and anger are all in a category quite separate from hardness, sights, sounds, and touch sensations, and confusing the categories is certainly cognitive error, I believe, though, it seems, it is an error that is more common than I had realized. ----------------------------------------------------- > > While the details about the stages of insight are not given in detail in > the suttas, often the meaning is implied. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: When an implication is not clear, it may be more a matter of inferring than implying. We humans have an uncanny ability to find what we are looking for. --------------------------------------------------- > > For example, in SN, 35:26 (Full Understanding), we read: > > “Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, > without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is > incapable of destroying suffering.â€?* > .... > S:It would seem there is nothing about stages or knowledge or > distinguishing of namas and rupas. > > However, as the commentary note indicates, “in this sutta the three kinds > of full understanding are discussed: full understanding of the known, full > understanding by scrutinization, and full understanding as abandonment.â€? > B.Bodhi gives cross-references to other suttas and notes which are > similar. > > The three pari~n~naas (kinds of full understanding) are the three kinds of > knowledge which refer to the detailed stages of insight given in the > commentaries. The first one is ~naata-pari~n~naa and refers to full > understanding of the known. In the commentary to the Mulapariyaya sutta, > we read about how ‘the defining of mentality-materiality > (nama-rupa-vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known’,in other > words the first stage of insight. > > “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully > understands the earth element [S: pathavi dhatu] thus: “This is the > internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, > this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.â€? > ..... > S: And so it continues for the other elements, showing how different this > understanding is for the ariyan than for the worldling who conceives all > sorts of wrong ideas about the elements, taking them for self. > > As we’ve seen in the Samyutta corner, often a few words in a sutta carry a > lot of meaning. I’ve discussed these verses before from SN1:20 (Samiddhi): > > “Beings who perceive what can be expressed > Become established in what can be expressed. > Not fully understanding what can be expressed, > They come under the yoke of Death. > > “But having fully understood what can be expressed, > One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’ > For that does not exist for him > By which one could describe him." > ..... > S: Again, How many of us can appreciate these verses without clarification > from the commentaries.? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. ----------------------------------------------- > > B.Bodhi adds quite a lot of commentary detail here. > > In brief:â€?Spk: ‘what can be expressed’ (akkheyya) are the 5 aggregates.... > ‘Beings who perceive what can be expressed’ (akkheyyasa~n`nino sattaa): > When ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are > affected by the ideas of permanence,pleasure, and self, elsewhere called > ‘distortions’(vipallaasa, AN 11 52). These distorted perceptions then > provoke defilements, on account of which beings ‘become established in > what can be expressed’(akkeyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa).’.....â€? > > The commentary explains the second verse in a similar way to the first > sutta in terms of the 3 pari~n~nas. > > “Spk: One ‘fully understands what can be expressed’ by way of the three > kinds of full understanding: i) by full understanding of the known > (~Naatapari~n~naa) one understnds the five aggregates in terms of their > individual characteristics etc...â€? > ..... > S:In other words, again this is pointing to the stages of insight, > starting with the defining of understanding of nama and rupa as explained > above. > > I had other suttas I had also planned to look at, but there is so much > detail in each one. It just depends how we read them. In the first sutta > quoted, the ‘all’ are the eye, visible object, seeing, eye-contact and > just the same realities as described in the sutta Swee Boon quoted (post > 30337), the Satipatthana sutta or any other. Hence we see that the > development of satipatthana, the knowing of the ‘all’, aka namas and > rupas, can be found in any sutta with clear comprehension of the > meaning.As Miss Horner stated, the commentary assistance is often > essential in this regard. > > Metta, > > Sarah > *All translations given are Bhikkhu bodhi’s. > > ** Highly recommended post by Kom on vipassana nana or insight knowledge > levels starting with nama-rupa paricheda nana. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30492 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear James and > Sarah, > > > > When we meet a person, we do not have a particular thought related to > > that person.But soon after we are inroduced to that person there the > > idea of 'self' has already been introduced along with conventional > > introduction. Just thinking. > .... > I think that as soon as we see 'a person' or hear 'a person', there is > thinking and an idea of 'someone' long before any words are formed or any > introductions take place. The conceptualising through the mind door > follows the sense door experiences very quickly indeed. > > Metta, > > Sarah ====== Dear Sarah, Exactly. Here is another boundry. Please drop the idea that arises as a man or so on. If not introduce for ever there is nothing to arise. Just thinking differently. Htoo Naing 30493 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] sexual misconduct Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/23/04 8:19:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi all > > I have read the useful post. I got this question from a friend which > I felt loss of words. In ancient a householder can have a few wives > and now only one wife, so if a householder have another "mistress" in > modern time, is it sexual misconduct. > > Then again he asked about lesbain and homosexual. > > Comments please > > Ken O > ======================== My reply is my own, without sutta to quote. Having a mistress (and the correponding situation for a woman) is a breach of trust and an abrogation of a pledge, and this (plus resulting agitation of the mind) is what makes it wrong. And because it pertains to sexual activity, it is sexual misconduct. As far as lesbian and homosexual activities are concerned I cannot see any basis for seeing any more moral fault in these than in heterosexual activities. (The pragmatics of sangha life are a separate matter, and I would just as soon skip that issue!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30494 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James, I want to say that I find your post (#30452) to Ken reasonable. I think it is wise to keep silent if the communication becomes draining. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi James > > > > K: Since you said that I did not response to your long mail, here I > > go > > > I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with you > because I find your responses to be irrational, over-emotional, and > borderline discourteous. I am afraid that if I respond again it will > only get worse. Therefore, I am going to practice Noble Silence with > you. I wish you the best and to only find happiness in all that you > do. > > Metta, James 30495 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: again. .... S: Whether we talk or don't talk about cittas, cetasikas and rupas, whether they are known or unknown, still there are only these realities existing, wouldn't you agree? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. utterly true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I understand you're saying that theory and practice are differnt. I agree. Still, the truths remain the same. Ultimately there is no self existing at all - no self to be lost or anything else. It never existed in the first place except in our imaginations. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You got more score :-)). Yes. That's what dhamma are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:;-) Even an arahant `lives in pannatta domain' in the sense of having to use pannatti - just no misconceptions. It's not a case of the language, but the understanding behind it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further scores again :-)). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with the first part, but don't understand the last sentence. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry. I just deleted it. See in the next post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Got it. But you seem eradicated Atta but still with traces. > > Even though you have thrown away it will creep in back into your bag. -------------------------------------------------------------- S: yes, there can be a moment of understanding now of seeing or feeling or visible object and this can be immediately followed by the idea of a thing or `my understanding'. It can sneak in anytime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: So you have right materials? -------------------------------------------------------------- S: What are the right materials? I'm not sure `we' ever have them or that they can be collected at the outset. If there are the right conditions,don't fear, they'll arise accordingly. In your new series (sensing dhamma 02), you mention `contemplation on dhamma has to arise when dhamma in different situations have been well recognized.' However, then you go on to discuss how `at first, the meditator practised breathing meditation on his breath. In doing so, there develops some achievement.' As you continue to explain, all the realities are in fact namas and rupas and you've said in this post `Arising is conditions related. No one can choice'. So my question is, what is the purpose of practising breathing meditation and what is the special achievement? I hope this doesn't sound impolite or disrespectful. I'm still trying to understand your tools and map and the reasons for the `choices';-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can sense you and your questions. It doesn't sound impolite or disrespectful. Q1. The purpose of practising breathing meditation Q2. The special achievement Q3. Tools and Map Q4. Choices A1. Ultimate aim is practising mahasatipatthana to attain Arahatta Magga Nana. At the earlier part the aim is to focus. This can be breathing meditation at nostril or at abdomen. Just for initial focus. A2. As initiated and maintained, no more focus is needed. Just to see real phenomena with wisdom. So the meditator achieves relaxed and flexible method in meditation. A3. Necessary knowledge. I think necessary. But not in actual sense if can practise properly. That knowledge is tool. You have been constantly poking through my messages. I am not disturbed. But what I want to say here is that you have a good knowledge that there is no Atta. That is tool. So you have tool. More tools are method of practice. Map is what shows landmarks. A4. You can choooe what you like. This is in conventional term. If there is no you, 'you' cannot choose. Some chose to become a Sammasambuddha. Some to become Paccekabuddhas. Some Agga Savaka. Some Mahasavaka. Some Etadagga. And so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: I really appreciate your kind communication. > > > > May you be free of wrong view. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, .... S:Thank you Htoo. These are very kind wishes,especially the wishing that we may be free of wrong view. Metta, Sarah p.s I like your comments about the five niyamas in another thread. ===================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 62 kinds of Micchaditthi. Wrong view is the worst. If someone kills another but he does not have wrong view, then he may not suffer long as those with wrong view. May you feel ease and peace and practise mahasatipatthana and achieve something right now. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30496 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) -------- >Htoo: Learn on the way. Arising is conditions related. No one can choice. As you said, there was no Sumedho but citta and a group of cetasikas and pannindriya cetasika arose. Cittas and Cetasikas arose and fell away continuously and Cittas and Cetasikas failed to arise over 2600 years back. -------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with the first part, but don't understand the last sentence. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am talking paramattha dhamma like you to become non-sense. As I thought you now do not understand the last part. The Buddha Gotama had done Mahaparinibbana over 2600 years ago. He did not choose to become a Sammasambuddha when he was Sumedho but:-) Cittas and Cetasikas arose, deciding mind that is Adhimokkho arose and for 4 Asenkheya and 100,000 Kappa, different cittas and cetasikas arose including dosa, lobha, moha and no more arose over 2600 years ago. Can you see any Atta here? I do hope, now you well penetrate the last sentence. If not I have to say it is just ' The Buddha Gotama had done Mahaparinibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S: By the way BTW, are you Mahayana? 30497 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi Howard, Cognitive disorder: excellent reminder, no need to apologize. Let's say we all suffer from this, so long as we are ordinary people. As you said: we believe we notice this or that but in reality it is different, the mind is like a magician (in my own words rendered). We are like sick people. To distinguish the mental from the material in theory: anybody can do this. Seeing is not visible object, hardness is not thinking. But as to the development of direct understanding, this is altogether different. Carl explained this very well. We are in a tangle. We are bound to take thinking for direct awareness. This gives us the impression that we can see and hear at the same time, feel hardness of the table and see a table at the same time. We are in an ocean of concepts. The greatest danger is not knowing that one is in a tangle. In order to enganle this tangle we should first of all know that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas different from hearing. Howard:< This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). The point of detailing all the khandhas is, as I see it, to emphasize their impersonality so that one is pointed in the direction of seeing that nothing that is actually observed is me or mine. > N: How to come to that goal? We have to know first what object *exactly* we take for permanent or self. We find the explanation of this in countless suttas. The suttas about all the objects experienced one at a time through the six doors. Six different worlds that are not mixed. As I tried to explain before, the three characteristics are characteristics of nama and of rupa, they are not abstract entities. Before someone can realize the arising and falling away of realities, thus, impermanence, he has to be sure which nama or which rupa has arisen and appears and then falls away. We have to remember that the citta with sati and panna only experiences one object at a time. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, feeling, thinking! They arise all the time. Even people who have skills for jhana (and they need the masteries, entering and emerging from jhana whenever they wish, etc) still have to distinguish nama from rupa. It is the beginning of insight. It is an important step from theoretical understanding towards a beginning of direct understanding. It is important though that the theoretical understanding of nama and rupa should be clear first. Howard: N: True, there are four Great Elements, and the other rupas, derived rupas are dependent on these. This means: the four great Elements arise always together with the derived rupas. According to the Theravada tradition: seven rupas only are experienced through the senses: three (of the Great Elements) are tangible object, and then there are colour, sound, odour and flavour experienced through their relevant sense-doors. You do not have to accept the Theravada tradiiton, but, we can verify in our own life whether it is true that these seven rupas appear all the time in daily life. Then all the other rupas can only be experienced through the mind-door. This is to be verified by each person for himself. Nina. 30498 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Ken and all, Perhaps I did not phrase my question clearly: When you read passage § 1.2., what do you see the Buddha taught such that you may definitely hold: "This is the Dhamma. This is the Vinaya. This is the Teacher's instruction."? As I see it, what the Buddha taught in this particular passage is guarding the doors of one's senses. And guarding the doors of one's senses leads to dispassion, not to passion. In that regard, one may definitely hold that this is the Teacher's instruction. In the passage § 1.1., I see that the Buddha taught the Dhamma that the All is aflame. And as the Buddha taught: "Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. This is the Dhamma that leads to dispassion, not to passion. In passage § 1.2., I see that the Buddha taught skillful/wholesome/kusala conduct of guarding the doors of one's sense and that too leads to dispassion, not to passion. May you be happy and well. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > > > Again, the question I have in mind is: > > What specific qualities in passage § 1.2. of which one may know and > > > may definitely hold as the Teacher's instruction? > > k: The qualities are having know the three characteristic in all the > six senses. What do you expect more ;-)? > > > Ken O 30499 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:04pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.3.) § 1.3. Sister Nanda: "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools." Considering it thus, untiring, both day & night, I, with my own discernment dissecting it, saw. And as I, heedful, examined it aptly, this body -- as it actually is -- was seen inside & out. Then was I disenchanted with the body & dispassionate within: Heedful, detached, calmed was I. Unbound. [Thig V.4] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig05 .html#4 30500 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hello Victor and All, How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Where DN2 says "he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him." Does it mean one averts ones eyes, stop ones ears, block ones nose, tries to think of something else etc when anything unpleasant or pleasant appears at one of the sense doors? How would this work? ... because one has already seen, heard, smelled etc. in order to decide? Isn't this more of the "I will not think of Mel Gibson in the shower, I will not think of Mel Gibson in the shower" ... it merely makes it a certainty that one WILL think of Mel Gibson (insert alternate choice) in the shower. "Distress" is such an inexact word - and I wonder why distress is called 'evil'? Is distress different to suffering? Victor - we might want to be able to trace the thread in escribe. At the moment, however the title is being recorded, the whole thread doesn't come up when clicking on "View This Thread". Any solution? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30501 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: sexual misconduct Hello KenO, and all, I think it is generally considered, by buddhists and non-buddhists, that having sex with someone while either is married/committed to another is unskillful and brings its own consequences. I feel sexual acts between consenting adults, whether heterosexual or homosexual, when free to do so and not in a committed relationship with another, would not be regarded as unskillful and would not be breaking the third Precept. A sexual act ought to be an expression of love, respect, loyalty and warmth. A power imbalance, deceit, or any form of exploitation would be unskillful. In buddhism it could be said that it is not just the person who is the object of one's sexual desire which determines whether a sexual act is unskillful or not, but rather the quality of the emotions and intentions involved. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi all > > I have read the useful post. I got this question from a friend which > I felt loss of words. In ancient a householder can have a few wives > and now only one wife, so if a householder have another "mistress" in > modern time, is it sexual misconduct. > > Then again he asked about lesbain and homosexual. > > Comments please > > Ken O 30502 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:39pm Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hello James, "B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101" ....can be found on page 959 Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans. of Samyutta Nikaya 101 (9) 'The Adze Handle (or The Ship)' - see the last verse. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > Nina, I am sorry but I can't quite follow this reference you give. > Where is this sutta found? I can't follow "B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101". I seem to always have a > problem with this because different methods are used to cite sources > from Buddhist texts. If you, or anyone else could give me a helpful > pointer, that would be great. I am not sure what kind of help you > would like with B.B.'s notes but I can't even begin unless I can find > them. ;-) > > Metta, James 30503 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:36am Subject: ~Nana Versus Vi~n~nana Hi, all - The words '~nana' and 'vi~n~nana' appear to be liguistically related, with 'vi~n~nana' like 'vipassana' both seeming to be special sorts of experience,as indicated by the prefix. In the PTS dictionary, the second part of the entry for ~nana gives the sense of insight/wisdom. But the first part goes as follows: _________________________________ Ñana (p. 287) (nt.) [from janati. See also janana. *gene, as in Gr. gnw_--sis (cp. gnostic), gnw/mh; Lat. (co)gnitio; Goth. kunpi; Ogh. kunst; E. knowledge] knowledge, intelligence, insight, conviction, recognition, opp. anana & avijja, lack of k. or ignorance. -- 1. Ñana in the theory of cognition: it occurs in intensive couple--compounds with terms of sight as cakkhu (eye) & dassana (sight, view), e. g. in cakkhu--karana nana--karana "opening our eyes & thus producing knowledge" i. e. giving us the eye of knowledge (a mental eye) (see cakkhu, janati passati, & cpd. °karana): Bhagava janan janati passan passati cakkhu--bhuto nana--bhuto (=he is one perfected in knowledge) M I.111=Nd2 2353h; natthi hetu natthi paccayo nanaya dassanaya ahetu apaccayo nanan dassanan hoti "through seeing & knowing," i. e. on grounds of definite knowledge arises the sure conviction that where there is no cause there is no consequence S V.126. Cp. also the relation of ditthi to nana. This implies that all things visible are knowable as well as that all our knowledge is based on empirical grounds; yavatakan neyyan tavatakan nanan Nd2 2353m; yan nanan tan dassanan, yan dassanan tan nanan Vin III.91; nana+dassana (i. e. full vision) as one of the characteristics of Arahantship: see arahant II.D. Cp. BSk. jnanadarsana, e. g. Av& Sacute; I.210. -- ------------------------------------------------------ I take that sense to mainly be knowledge in the sense of general experience. (Opening our eyes and thus producing experience). It doesn't seem to imply an element of a knowing subject. On the other hand, the entry for vi~n~nana begins as follows: ________________________________ Vinnana (p. 618) (nt.) [fr. vi+jna; cp. Vedic vijnana cognition] (as special term in Buddhist metaphysics) a mental quality as a constituent of individuality, the bearer of (individual) life, life--force (as extending also over rebirths), principle of conscious life, general consciousness (as function of mind and matter), regenerative force, animation, mind as transmigrant, as transforming (according to individual kamma) one individual life (after death) into the next. (See also below, c & d). ---------------------------------------------- I see this as associating vi~n~nana with a sense of an individual as knower. (I tend to think of vi~n~nana as subjectivity.) The distinction between ~nana and vi~n~nana is quite analogous, it seems to me, to the distinction between chanda and tanha, with the main difference in both cases being that of sense of self/individuality. If my take on ~nana is incorrect, then I wonder what other general Pali word might serve to express experience that is not necessarily afflicted by sense of self - that is, experience as mere presence of experiential content. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30504 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:20pm Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello James, > > "B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101" > ....can be found on page 959 Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans. of Samyutta > Nikaya 101 (9) 'The Adze Handle (or The Ship)' - see the last verse. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time -- Thank you for this information! I got as far as the "Khandhasamyutta" and then got hung up on Nina's spelling "Khandhavagga"; and then I couldn't figure out what `Middle Fifty' or `Chapter Five' referred to. I thought I might read through the whole chapter and find the appropriate sutta but then I found myself reading suttas without the purpose of finding that one! ;-)) After about an hour of jumping through the SN reading various suttas (i.e. Sarah's `Grasshopper' ;-), losing all track of my initial purpose, I realized it was time to ask for help. Bookstores and libraries are very dangerous places for me because of this tendency of mine! ;-) Metta, James 30505 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Howard, > Howard: > >Did you pick the red kasina for a particular reason, or do you just >like red? Basically, I just like red. But I experimented with other kasinas, including water, blue and yellow. In the end I found that painting my own kasina with pleasing shades of red and some visual detail, but not too much detail, seemed to work best. With metta, Toby 30506 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Sarah, Thanks for your welcoming words. > ..... > I find the same thing rather frustrating about Conditional Relations > (Patthana). I assume it's this and not the 'Guide to Conditional Rels' > you're referring to? I'd be interested to hear which you are looking at. > Actually, at the end of the 2nd vol of the former, there's a short index > of first occurrence of a Pali term, but it's rather unsatisfactory and at > a quick look now, it doesn't list 'haddaya'. > > In the Guide (also no index), there is quite a lot of detail under 'base > object prenascence dependent condition' of which heart-base is the only > conditioning state. P32. I think the reference you refer to was in the > Vism, ch X1V which we read about not so long ago. You may also like to > look at the posts under 'heart' in UP and add any comments and let us know > of reasons for your interest in this area: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Look forward to hearing more from you. > > I'm not sure if it was the Guide to Conditional Relations or Conditional Relations itself, or as you suggest, Vism. I looked for it in Vism but didn't find it again so assumed it must be CR. I'll check again- thanks for the heads up. With Metta, Toby 30507 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Nina, Oh yes, now I remember this sutta and the discussion I had with Sarah about it. (You have a very good memory to have remembered that!). As I recall, we were discussing how the commentaries are useful in bringing out the hidden (less apparent) meanings of a sutta. I recall that I didn't particularly care for the commentary to the first metaphor in this sutta (about a hen hatching eggs) because of the last part: "And as the chicks go about adorning the village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibbana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery." First, comparing arahants to decorations for a monastery struck me as rather odd. Second, as Buddhists I don't think it is proper to consider sense objects as `decorations' or to even dwell on such a thing. Wouldn't that increase attachment and desire? Anyway, let's drop that and move on ;-). I do remember that I really, really liked the commentary to the second metaphor because it is so excellent! Nina, my SN has a slightly different version of the related section you quote: I have: "Suppose, bhikkhus, there was a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had been worn away in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would be further attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away. So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, his fetters easily collapse and rot away." Note 214: The simile is also at 45:158. I read it as in Se and Ee. Spk develops this simile even more minutely than the simile of the chicks. In brief: Like the wearing away of the bhikkhu's fetters by his going forth (into homelessness), study, and questioning. Like the time the ship is hauled onto dry land is the time the bhikkhu takes up a meditation subject and dwells in the forest. Like the drying up of the rigging by wind and sun during the day is the drying up of craving by insight knowledge. Like the wetting by snow at night is the wetting of the mind by gladness and joy arisen from meditation. Like the rain cloud pouring down is the knowledge of the path of arahantship. Like the decay of the rigging is the attainment of the fruit of arahantship. Like the persistence of the rigging in a decrepit state is the persistence of the arahant as he lives on benefiting the multitude. Like the collapse of the decrepit rigging is the arahant's attainment of the Nibbana element without residue. James' Note: I like this commentary and extended metaphor for two main reasons: the description of a ship becoming decrepit and falling apart is very literary (more literary than most of the metaphors in the Pali Canon) and since I am an English teacher I especially like literary metaphors! ;-) But the second, and most important, reason I like it is because it is describing something falling apart, rather than something being born (as in the chick metaphor). I think this more accurately and wonderfully describes the process of becoming an arahant. After all, becoming an arahant is removing the supports for ignorance until the false sense of self falls away on its own. This process can't be speeded up; it has to occur naturally and slowly. Additionally, this metaphor demonstrates how the Buddhist practitioner doesn't follow the mores and standards of the society at large. Society would value the ship and try to keep it in good working order (i.e. building and rebuilding the ego continually) but the Buddhist takes delight in letting the ship fall apart. It is a beautiful metaphor! Nina, I hope this post has been of some assistance. I'm sorry but I can't speak directly to `latent tendencies' because I am not an expert in that regard. I hope that your book is coming along nicely. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments. Metta, James 30508 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) In a message dated 2/23/04 2:47:28 PM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Where DN2 says "he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him." Christine, If I may jump in here. My understanding is that phenomena as they enter each sense door is contact (phasa) in the Cycles of Dependent Origination (DO). Guarding the sense doors is applying mindfulness to conteract our conditioned reaction to each contact. This reaction without mindfulness leads up the ladder of the Cycles of DO to suffering. jack 30509 From: Andy Wilson Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? sarah > S: This is why it's important to understand anatta means nothing > can be controlled in an ultimate sense. Can you stop hurtful > feelings arising? Impossible, otherwise, we'd all do it. ..... > S: That's great. It's another real cliche, but sometimes very > good things do come out of very difficult things and your > keen interest in the Dhamma seems like a very good thing for > you and us;-) thank you for your kind thoughts, and also for reminding me of this; "in order that I may not slumber all night like a buffalo, God in His grace has given me pain... Pain is a treasure , for there are mercies in it: the kernel becomes fresh when you scrrape off the rind. O brother, to dwell in a dark and cold place, to endure patiently sorrow and weakness and pain, is the fountain of life and the cup of spiritual intoxiction, for those heights are all in lowliness... Be a fellow traveller with grief, agree with desolation, seek lasting life in thy death." Rumi, Mathnawi III 130 not the 'middle way' precisely, but it has it's truth ;-) Metta andy 30510 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Christine, I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. When one sees an image of Mel Gibson, or himself in person, he or she might pick up/grasp a theme of handsomeness or sexiness that leads to thoughts in sensuality and passion. So to guard the doors of one's senses, he or she would not grasp at any theme or details (sexy smiles, eyes, physiques, voice, etc.) and dwell on them such that they lead to unskillful qualities such as sensual desires and passion. I think that to get rid of the thoughts about Mel Gibson in shower, passage § 1.3. is relevant. I think 'evil' in this sense means 'unskillful,' 'unwholesome,' not strictly 'immoral' or 'unethical.' Although being immoral or unethical is definitely being unskillful/unwholesome, being unskillful/unwholesome does not necessarily mean being immoral or unethical. In that sense, distress is an unskillful/unwholesome quality, thus 'evil.' That is how I see it... I've been to escribe couple times following the links provided in the messages, but I am not familiar with its operation. What is the link? I will check it out. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor and All, > > How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Where DN2 says "he > does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to > dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- > evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail > him." > Does it mean one averts ones eyes, stop ones ears, block ones nose, > tries to think of something else etc when anything unpleasant or > pleasant appears at one of the sense doors? How would this work? ... > because one has already seen, heard, smelled etc. in order to decide? > Isn't this more of the "I will not think of Mel Gibson in the > shower, I will not think of Mel Gibson in the shower" ... it merely > makes it a certainty that one WILL think of Mel Gibson (insert > alternate choice) in the shower. > > "Distress" is such an inexact word - and I wonder why distress is > called 'evil'? Is distress different to suffering? > > Victor - we might want to be able to trace the thread in escribe. At > the moment, however the title is being recorded, the whole thread > doesn't come up when clicking on "View This Thread". Any solution? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30511 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's nama rupa (was Catching Anger) Hi Sarah, L: "Hi Howard, I agree. The sutta doesn't explain the stages it mentions. One point: the knowledge of nama and rupa isn't so much about distinguishing nama from rupa as it is about the composite nature of nama and the composite nature of rupa. What initially appears as one is seen to be (experienced as) many. .... S: "Sorry, Larry, but this makes no sense to me. Maybe you could elaborate." Larry: If you were to examine one moment of anger you would find a profusion of realities. This accords both with Matara Sri ~Nanarama and Ch. XVIII in Vism. We may be conscious of only one object at a time but zillions of realities arise at once, depending on how big our "at once" is, and we can detect these depending on how sharp our discriminating awareness is. Larry 30512 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi Nina and Sarah, I agree that we don't really discern namas and rupas, but I consider this to be good news. I think the idea is not so much to catch a cetasika as it is to really realize that they are truely uncatchable. We don't even come close. They are long gone. Larry 30513 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Vism.XIV 61 (4 of 4) "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 Note 27 cont'. 'Since it has been said that the apprehension of intimation is next to the apprehension of the appearance of motion, how then, is the air element itself as the maker of the movement accompanied by the alteration consisting in the intimation? It is not like that. It is the air elements given rise to by the first impulsion, etc., and which are unable to cause movement in that way and perform only the stiffening and upholding, that should be taken as only accompanied by the alteration belonging to intimation. For it is the alteration coexistent with the intention that is the intimation, because of giving rise to alteration in whatever direction it wishes to cause the occurrence of moving forward and so on. Taking it in this way, it is perfectly logical to say that the origination of intimation belongs to mind-door adverting. Since the intention possessed of the aforesaid alteration is intimated through the apprehension of that alteration, it is said that "Its function is to display intention". The air element being the cause of the motion of the body intimation, is figuratively said, as a state of alteration, to be "manifested as the cause of bodily motion". "Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element" is said since the air element's excessive function is the cause of intimating intention by movement of the body' (Pm. 450-52). Cf. DhsA. 83f. 30514 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital christine_forsyth wrote:Hello Victor, and All, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' ... doesn't that have a stirring ring to it - almost like a Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! The Dhamma, in this instance, means the Doctrine, doesn't it? That would include everything in the Tipitaka? And the Vinaya means the Discipline. Does this just mean the official rules for the Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis? I wonder, then, about lay people. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > The Eight Principles > > I have heard that at on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at > Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest. > > Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing > there she said to him: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the > Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, > ardent, & resolute." > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > to dispassion, not to passion; > to being unfettered, not to being fettered; > to shedding, not to accumulating; > to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; > to contentment, not to discontent; > to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; > to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, > this is the Teacher's instruction.'" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami > delighted at his words. > > > [AN VIII.53] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles ends, Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose 30515 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James and Victor >James I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with you because I find your responses to be irrational, over-emotional, and borderline discourteous. I am afraid that if I respond again it > will only get worse. Victor: I want to say that I find your post (#30452) to Ken reasonable. I think it is wise to keep silent if the communication becomes draining. k: My frank opinion on why both of you felt this way because you still not able to withstand my cross examination on your assumption of Buddhism. If you have faith on your assumptions or believe you have, you will have stand up and counter argue your points. Think hard what I ask you because you may not meet another like me who will ask these questions, who will challenge the most inner held believe one has. When one try to answer another questions, then confidence will grow in one believe, just like when I answer Michael questions, my confidence grows and not diminishes. I am not like many people who will tell you indirectly or diplomatically. I am not like many people who will tell you hey your are doing fine, keep going. I prefer straight foward hard talk and cutting the crap out of pleasantaries, especially when I see your assumptions are weak. Stand up and be counted!!! Ken O 30516 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/23/04 10:14:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Nina and Sarah, > > I agree that we don't really discern namas and rupas, but I consider > this to be good news. I think the idea is not so much to catch a > cetasika as it is to really realize that they are truely uncatchable. We > don't even come close. They are long gone. > > Larry > ========================= When you are happy, are you typically unaware of that? When you are angry? When you hear a sound? Now I'm not talking about *capturing* the experience; it won't wait around to be "captured". But so long as one is not lost in thought or badly inattentive, experiences are *experiences*. Now when there is an experience of strong or sharp hardness, for example, it is quite different from an experience of displeasure. But I do agree that if attention is weak, the hardness and the immediately resulting displeasure (bodily pain) appear as one event, a physical one. However, heightened attention will rectify that confusion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30517 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Victor > As I see it, what the Buddha taught in this particular passage is > guarding the doors of one's senses. And guarding the doors of > one's senses leads to dispassion, not to passion. In that regard, > one may definitely hold that this is the Teacher's instruction. k: If one will to see dhammas as anatta, anicca and dukkha, it will lead to dispassion. Since all the six sense objects (dhammas) are inflame with passion, the qualities that lead to dispassion is to see these dhammas with the three characteristics in our living moment. Furthermore when one see these three qualities, it is wholesome. That is how one guard the door. Does this explain? Ken O P.S> I am trying hard not to question you ;-). I am thinking I should provide you answers rather then questions. Cheers. 30518 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Christine and Ajahn Jose, > ends, Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > Thanks for letting us know about this Christine. A. Jose, I hope you will not have to experience too much suffering and the operation next week goes well and may you soon recover and get back to normal. Metta and best wishes, Sukin 30519 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Howard: "When you are happy, are you typically unaware of that? When you are angry? When you hear a sound?" Hi Howard, Let's take angry. That's the easiest for me. When I am angry, what is happening? There is internal, consciousness produced tangible data. This tangible data is felt as unpleasant feeling but the tangible data itself is rupa. What is the feeling? I know it is there but I can't really "see" it. Wraped around that is the angry cetasika or consciousness. This I can't really "see" either, but I know it is there. In addition to this, conceit arises as complex little bubbles that I know are there but can't really "see". There are probably at least two sets of unpleasant feeling consciousness produced tangible data: one has to do with being angry, the other is a reaction to being angry. In addition to this is a story strung together with vitakka and vicara out of the "cookie jar" of perception (sanna). Precipitating this whole thing is a desire. I can't really identify any of this stuff precisely, but I know it is there. The only phenomena that could be pointed to is the internal tangible data. Because I can point to it, I suspect I am not looking at it very carefully. Larry 30520 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Bhante, --- Ajahn Jose wrote: > >....Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in > hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the > Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the > people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis > infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney > infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the > stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > .... I'm also very sorry to hear about your sickness and thank you for letting us know. I presume you're back in Australia and being well taken care of. I'm sure I speak for everyone here on this "funny little list" when I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you're able to resume your usual activities as soon as possible. Please keep us updated. Best wishes & Metta, Sarah ====== 30521 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi James, Thanks for the trouble. This sutta comes after the one about the chicks that are hedged, which Sarah also quoted and gave the B.B. notes belonging to it. Maybe she could help? Nina. op 23-02-2004 15:36 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Nina, I am sorry but I can't quite follow this reference you give. > Where is this sutta found? I can't follow "B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101". I seem to always have a > problem with this because different methods are used to cite sources > from Buddhist texts. If you, or anyone else could give me a helpful > pointer, that would be great. I am not sure what kind of help you > would like with B.B.'s notes but I can't even begin unless I can find > them. ;-) 30522 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital --- Yes, I also thank you for informing us Venerable. I hope your recovery is going well. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Bhante, > > --- Ajahn Jose wrote: > > > >....Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in > > hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the > > Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the > > people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis > > infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney > > infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the > > stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > > > .... > I'm also very sorry to hear about your sickness and thank you for letting > us know. I presume you're back in Australia and being well taken care of. > I'm sure I speak for everyone here on this "funny little list" when > I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you're able to resume your usual > activities as soon as possible. > > Please keep us updated. > > Best wishes & Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > 30523 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Victor, Christine & All, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > I've been to escribe couple times following the links provided in > the messages, but I am not familiar with its operation. What is the > link? I will check it out. ..... For Newbies, they're talking about the escribe back-up of posts at: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ If you check on the post of any thread (my discussion with Htoo is a good example of how it can work), then click on 'view this thread' at the top, it's easy to trace all the messages in the thread. I just tried for a couple in your new series, Victor, and they mostly seem to be working OK. Sometimes if someone changes just a character in the subject heading or something, it may not appear in the thread. I'm not sure. I'll leave it to Chris to try again. For Newbies, there is also a useful search function in escribe - using a key word in the subject heading - and also a 'view other messages by this author' or something like that. Metta, Sarah ===== 30524 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Bhante - In a message dated 2/24/04 12:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, ajahnjose@y... writes: > Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I > was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was > staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid > Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in > my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for > the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > =========================== I'm very sorry to hear of your illness and hospital stay. A serious gastroenteritis is certainly a matter for concern and is also quite an ordeal! I'm pleased that that ordeal is now over. Kidney stones, so long as they are up in the kidney are at least not painful (though the infection might be). Over the years I've passed many, many kidney stones, an extremely painful affair. I've also undergone many procedures to remove stones, including ureter scopings, lithotripsy, and even surgery (about 35 years ago). I'm hoping that what you are having next week is just lithotripsy, because that is relatively noninvasive. In any case, I do hope that whatever is the exact nature of the procedure, it goes smoothly, easily, and effectively. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30525 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor & Christine, A good study corner;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think I get your point regarding 'This is the Dhamma, this is the > Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' having a stirring ring to > it. ..... ‘eso dhammo eso vinayo eta’n satthusàsananti’. ‘this is the Dhamma; this is the Vinaya; this is the Master’s Teaching.’ I take this to refer to Dhamma-Vinaya, the entire Tipitaka and Buddha-vacana. 84,000 units of Dhamma-Vinaya text was rehearsed at the first council, including Abhidhamma. See these posts which elaborate and give the other AN sutta Nina referred to with details of the ‘Nine factors of the Norm’: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25396.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25397.html >Recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction > is an affirming experience, if not without a sense of conviction and > joy. I agree with this but not with your definitions below! Vinaya refers to the Vinaya Pitaka rehearsed first at the council and Dhamma refers to the Sutta and Abhidhamma Pitakas or the rest of the nine divisions. Please let me know if you have further comments for discussion on this favourite topic of mine;-) Metta, Sarah ======= > I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' >and `Vinaya' > as `(Ethical) Conduct.' The Principle is the principle on dukkha > and the cessation of dukkha. The meaning of `conduct' is not > limited to the rules of conduct for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis as > codified in the vinaya pitaka as the Buddha taught ethical conduct > not only to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis but also to lay people. 30526 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor & Christine, It may be useful here to also requote the following from the Baahiranidaana (Buddhaghosa's intro to the Commentary to the Vinaya). It is from the section on The First Council, (Jayawickrama's transl). ========================================= Extracts from section 16 (p.14) onwards: ‘ The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment,twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first,intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas(Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.’ ...... ‘How is it twofold as the dhamma and the vinaya? All this, in its entirety, is reckoned as the Dhamma and the Vinaya. Herein the Basket of the Discipline is the Vinaya, the rest of the word of the Buddha is the Dhamma. Hence was it stated: “Let us, friends, rehearse the Dhamma and the Vinaya,” and :I shall question Upali on the Vinaya and Ananda on the dhamma.” Thus it is twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya.’ . ..... A little later we read
..... With regard to the term, Abhidhamma, it says: ‘Since here are found conditions which possess growth and their own characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be excellent-on account of these it is called Abhidhamma.’ . ..... A little later, there is a description of the 3 Pitakas, Vinaya, suttanta and Abhidhamma: ‘Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas,indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively; or they are the discourses necesitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in acordance with reality respectively; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form , respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; the suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has beem preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of *ultimate truth* as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. ‘Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherin those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein bengs who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth.......’ ******************** Metta, Sarah ====== 30527 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Thanks for the trouble. This sutta comes after the one about the chicks that > are hedged, which Sarah also quoted and gave the B.B. notes belonging to > it. Maybe she could help? > Nina. Christine was so kind (and intelligent!) to direct me to the proper location in the SN. I wrote a post in response, #30507. Let me know if this is the type of input you were looking for or if you had something else in mind. Metta, James 30528 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Victor & Jack, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hello Jack, > > Here is a verse from Dhammapada for consideration: > > > 372: > > There's no jhana > for one with no discernment, > no discernment > for one with no jhana. > But one with both jhana > & discernment: > he's on the verge > of Unbinding. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/25.html#372 ..... It’s an interesting verse and follows 371 which has been discussed in detail. Here’s another translation (Narada’s) of 372: “There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, (Natthi jhaana’m apa~n~nassa) Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato*) In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. (sa ve nibbaanasantike) *see earlier discussions on jhaaya and jhaayatha, often translated as meditate, meditation and jhana. Here are some comments RobK and Jim gave before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Metta, Sarah ====== 30529 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Robert, ------------------- R: > I used to think if anyone would study and consider carefully that eventually they would 'get it'. In fact it is only if there is true investigation of the present moment that understanding grows: and that in turn makes the theory clearer. ------------------- I'm sorry, Robert, I'm not sure I follow. Are you telling me something new here? I think I know what study, consideration and investigation mean; is there something that can be done to make the third flow on from the first two? Kind regards, Ken H 30530 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Howard, I was suggesting that study is incompatible with formal practice and vice versa. You wrote: ------------------ > I think you are incorrect on both counts. Extolling the virtues of listening, considering and discussing is not, in itself, disputing the efficacy of any other aspects of practice, and extolling other aspects of practice, including, "formal" meditation, is not in itself a denigration of study. There is no reason one cannot do both, and there is every reason to believe that each is supportive of the other. > ------------------ I would agree with you, were it not for the word `formal.' As I understand it, a jhana practitioner -- sitting alone, in a remote forest, back straight, concentration fixed – is not practising formal meditation. In his past, for many lifetimes, he has been living correctly – keeping the precepts, forsaking luxuries, practising moderation in eating and sleeping, and so forth. (He would be quite a remarkable personality, I think, probably unlike anyone I have ever met.) In whatever way he develops jhana absorption, there would be nothing formal about his practice – it would be perfectly natural for him. Admittedly, for some of us, it might be equally natural to sit for an hour or two every day and practise some form of mental therapy. So, perhaps in those cases too, the word `formal' does not apply. However, it is not jhana, and so it is not a method of mental development taught in the Pali Canon. As a natural part of daily life, such a practice is no more (and no less) conducive of morality and insight than is walking the dog. On the other hand, `formal' meditation connotes an idea (a subtle wrong view) of being able to control conditions (for mental development). In other words, walking the dog would be better. ------------------ H: > I think this is complete nonsense. For the worldling anatta is rarely more than mere belief! You can believe all you want that there is no self, but you still can stand up if you wish, and you can sit down if you wish, and, for that matter, so could the Buddha, who (I believe) *knew* there was no self. -------------------- It would be wrong to separate daily life from Dhamma practice. If we believe that standing up and sitting down are controlled by self, then we must believe the Eightfold Path is controlled by self. There can be standing and sitting with or without the idea of a controlling self, but progress on the path requires right understanding all the way. --------------------------- H: > When you are an arahant, Ken, and may that be soon, then you will come at things from the perspective of nibbana. Until then, to have the opinion that there is no self and that, thus, nothing can be done because there is no "one" to do it, --------------------------- That is your conclusion, not mine. My understanding of conditionality has never caused me to despair, to feel helpless or to feel justified in being lazy. ----------------------- H: > is to pretend enlightenment when there is none, it is to delude oneself as to what one's possibilities are, and it is to guarantee stagnation on the path. The Buddha taught his followers to DO a variety of things, including act morally, guard the senses, cultivate the divine abidings, master the jhanas, meditate mindfully on the four foundations, and so on and so forth. ---------------------- `Trying' to follow the Buddha's teaching with a perception of self (because anatta is too hard to deal with), might feel like progress but it takes us further away from right understanding. ----------------------- H: > Of course there are paramattha dhammas - that is, phenomena the clear and direct knowing of which leads to the ultimate goal (parama attha) - and it is the direct knowing of their tripartite nature of anicca, dukkha, andanatta that enables the attaining of that ultimate goal. --------------------------------- I would agree, but I suspect your point is; ultimate reality is the end, not the beginning. Beginning or end, path or no path, there are only paramattha dhammas. Kind regards, Ken H 30531 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Bhante, I was shocked to hear of your illness, and how serious it was. I hope you are safely back home in Canberra, where, even though it sounds like there is yet more to endure, I know you will be getting the very best of care. How unexpected this illness was - it is a reminder to us all that we can never know what will happen from one moment to the next. How strange it must be for you to be the patient, relying on the advice and treatment of your medical colleagues - quite a role reversal. :-) I will be thinking of you with metta, and send my best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery. Please keep us informed of your progess. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose > ends, Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > 30532 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] definately faithless Hi John, Thanks for your reply last week to me. Sorry for the delay - I get busy at the end of the week. --- John Hoban wrote: <...> >I > don't think she's in it just for $$$ , talking about contact with > dead I mean, but of course, that doesn't mean she isn't imagining > what she thinks she sees either. Even experience can be imagined, > can't it? ... S: Yes......* .... > That's part of the problem I think. Anybodies testimony can be > attributed to self-delusion, including one's own. At this point I > have to laugh. I think that very realization is my only sanity. ..... S: Yes, sometimes laughing at our self-delusion and ignorance is not a bad thing;-).Having said that, I think any teaching can be tested out right now, to see whether what is taught is correct or not. .... > Your words make sense. I have these periodic outbursts of > sanctimonious B.S. > I must point out that your advantage is that you do believe, as you > stated, that if one does good deeds, etc, they will have good > reward/karma/feedback/whatever. That's an act of faith and you know > me. ..... S: More important is to understand the value of ‘good’ and the harm in ‘bad’ at this moment. When we’re angry, to give a simple example, we can test out whether it’s skilful, whether there’s any wisdom, whether it leads to calm and peace or to more anger. .... >Also, if death is the end of a personal entity, then how can > that entity feel good and get the positive feedback ..... S: What we take for a person are mental and physical phenomena. The positive feedback or results are in the way of pleasant experiences through the senses. Usually we feel good when we have pleasant experiences and feel bad when they’re unpleasant. The path of wisdom is a path of equanimity or detachment, learning to accept whatever comes our way. ... > Also this make me think that good deeds should not be done for the > goal of reward. That's kinda selfish, no? .... S:I agree. If we do good in the hope of a good result or reward, it shows selfishness or self-clinging. That doesn’t mean don’t do the good deeds, but better be honest about it and know the different mental states involved. ..... >Hey! Maybe that's why > we're not 'permited' to know about what happens when we die. So that > we do good stuff out of unselfish altruism! Saw right through the .... S: ;-)When we die, life will continue just like now...another moment, more mental states and so on. Better to look at present states and present ignorance and delusion, rather than being too concerned about future states, I think. .... >"But my cynic soon returns and the lifeboat burns, my spirit > just never learns" - from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway CD, Genesis .... S: Oh, you’ll have to start singing with Icaro - maybe you can help him when he forgets his words;-) A cynic...hmmm......it’s good to question as you’re doing here, John. I’d also encourage you to take a look at the following books of Nina’s and see if either appeal: ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ or http://www.abhidhamma.org/ .... > P.S. I always have trouble finding the right word for 'dead', > deceased, passed on, etc. They all imply something and I know nothing. ..... S:What about this moment? Is there also death or passing on of consciousness and mental states? .... > What's Metta mean? .... S:It means I wish you well and friendly greetings. In your universe post you asked more about kamma. No one to judge and no self to be a maker either. Causes and results. Also it’s not dependent on anyone’s view. You said you don’t know your own heart. Regadless the law of kamma works on. by understanding more about your ‘heart’, it’ll be easier to understand kamma, but not easy. You may also like to look at posts under kamma and vipaka (result of kamma) at this link, passing over any which are too technical for now. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Hope to hear from you. Metta, Sarah ====== *“..For that reason the Blessed One has said, ‘bhikkhus, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, Bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.” (SN22:100 as given in Atth. transl) 30533 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Dear KenH Remember the brief description KenO gave of his meeting with K. Sujin """"What strikes me during our discussion is when A Sujin say it just about nama and rupa and right understanding on them. It was not even kusala and akusala nama, it is about just the basic - nama and rupa. When I think about it, what she is trying to put across is to have less thinking but more direct understanding of reality. I think whenever we try to understand the characteristic of kusala and akusala, there is a likelihood that we are thinking and not understanding reality. I thought I was very basic in my practise just noticing the reality of the six rooted cittas, she was even more basic than me. I feel this point of looking at just namas and rupas is good to share with the rest here. To me, effective - it cuts away thinking - it is just about reality."""" KenO, just before he left for Bangkok, asked me some profound Abhidhamma question offlist. I said he would be able to ask in bangkok and mentioned that we have to know where we are. How much is the teaching we have already learnt understood. It is not having so many details that is crucial (although these can be very useful too) but whether it relates to what is happening now. I have met a person or two who spend a great deal of time studying Dhamma, even writing about it, but who seem to miss the application of it. Partly this is because of accumulations and partly because it is relatively easy to remember/write/speak/think/ about Dhamma - one can mimic what is heard and read in the Tipitaka. But the actual application is so profound that no one can say 'do this, and then that, and now you have sati'. It can only be understood each for himself. BTW, the reason I brought this up is not because I think you don't understand this, far from it; but along the same lines as Andrews letter, a pedagogical matter. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > ------------------- > R: > I used to think if anyone would study and consider carefully > that eventually they would 'get it'. In fact it is only if there is > true investigation of the present moment that understanding grows: > and that in turn makes the theory clearer. > ------------------- > > I'm sorry, Robert, I'm not sure I follow. Are you telling me > something new here? I think I know what study, consideration and > investigation mean; is there something that can be done to make the > third flow on from the first two? > > Kind regards, > Ken H 30534 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, I don’t think anyone got back on the ‘metta ripples’ questions: --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. > > An afterthought and a question. Thanks to Sarah's reminding me > that I had stated an intention to read more about Paramis- an > intention I had forgotten about- I have started reading it and I > sense it's going to add a lot of focus and energy to my beginner's > practice. .... S:That’s good. .... >And it's not a stretch for me to imagine that by having a > more focussed and energetic practice, I will bring a lot more > wholesome energy out into the world and into the classroom where I > teach. So a single gesture by Sarah (and link from Robert) will end > up having something of what I call a Metta ripple effect here in > Japan, no > matter how piddly it turns out to be due to my lack of diligence. ..... S: Hmmm....maybe better not to have any expectations...conditions are so complicated, I think. Still, I appreciate your good intentions for your teaching. ..... > There are countless examples of this sort of thing in all our lives, > of course. The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand > candles, or words to that effect. .... I’d be curious to follow this up if anyone has the reference. .... > My question for you is if there is a Dhamma term for the way > wholesome citta(?) proliferate in the world as a result of our kind > gestures? ..... We often use the word ‘accumulate’ here to refer to the way that wholesome cittas condition more wholesome cittas. As to the effect on others and the world, that’s another question. Often no one knows about wholesome cittas and acts or they may not like them or ignore them. In other words, I think that as wisdom grows, so do the wholesome cittas, regardless of any effects. Still, it’s wholesome when you’d like to help your students or others around and see the value in metta. Those that appreciate good deeds and thoughts will appreciate these sometimes, but even if they don’t, it’s OK too. No expectations. ..... >I seem to be very interested in this kind of thing but > don't have enough knowledge of the Dhamma to know if I am just > cooking up my own pretty notions or not. .... It’s a good topic. I’d like to hear more from others. Metta ripples sound pretty good as long as there isn’t any idea of metta radiation or transferring of metta to others. Metta, Sarah p.s pls quote any parts from the Paramis or ADL which you find especially useful or wish to discuss too. ====== 30535 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hello Sarah, and all. I'm eagerly reading ADL and the Paramis book these days. I find that reading them concurrently is interesting, because the profusion of new terms in ADL finds a context in the Paramis book that reinforces their meaning for me. I find myself waking up in the middle of the night and reading them. It's very thrilling. I'd been going along for close to a year with only a vague understanding of what the Khandas are about, and now they are so much more clear. Questions are arising, of course. I'm just relaxing and getting into it without fretting too much about it. > ..... > We often use the word `accumulate?Ehere to refer to the way that wholesome > cittas condition more wholesome cittas. As to the effect on others and the > world, that's another question. Often no one knows about wholesome cittas > and acts or they may not like them or ignore them. In other words, I think > that as wisdom grows, so do the wholesome cittas, regardless of any > effects. P: I'm very interested in the 4 Efforts, if that's the way they are usually translated. Discouraging the arising of unwholesome thoughts, removing those that have arisen, encouraging the arising of wholesome ones, and nurturing those that have arisen. If I've understood the reading I've done, wholesome citta are conditioned and arise due to past wholesome deeds. So it is not a matter or resolving to give rise to them. (This runs counter to the kind of Metta meditation I've been doing, in a way. I do a lot of conceptual work that doesn't fall in with the practice laid out in ADL. But it's all good, for this beginner, at least. I'll be more rigorous in the future, I imagine.) Nevertheless, I'm curious about how we can contribute to the 4 Efforts of others, either consciously or unconsciously. For example, I have a co- worker who is an outright dog, always boasting about his sexual conquests. Now he's engaged, and everyone's dubious, and tells him he'll never mend his philandering ways. I made a point to agree with him when he said he could settle down and purify his sexuality. (LOrd knows he didn't use that term!) So I was helping him to maintain a wholesome intention. That's a very crude example, but I'm curious to know how we can purify not only our own citta stream, if you will, but contribute to the purifying of others, in whatever small way. But as you say, no expecations. Could anyone tell me how these 4 Efforts are termed in Pali, so I can refer to them again? Thanks. >The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand > > candles, or words to that effect. > .... > I'd be curious to follow this up if anyone has the reference. P: I'd also like to know if anyone has a reference. I found this in "THe Teaching of the Buddha" which many of you are probably familiar with. It's the Buddha's Gideon, a bilingual collection left in Japanese hotel rooms. The references are very shady, however - when I've cross-checked them at Access to Insight, the translations (as well as the Japanese) bore little resemblance to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations. I hope it is an authentic teaching of the Buddha, because it has inspired me for years. >pls quote any parts from the Paramis or ADL which you find >especially > useful or wish to discuss too. P: I surely will be doing so! Thank you again for your encouragement. I can't tell you how grateful I am to have come across this group. As we know, the BUddha teaches that the opportunity to study the Dhamma is a rare one indeed. I will no longer dawdle about doing so with diligence. Metta Philip --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. > > > > An afterthought and a question. Thanks to Sarah's reminding me > > that I had stated an intention to read more about Paramis- an > > intention I had forgotten about- I have started reading it and I > > sense it's going to add a lot of focus and energy to my beginner's > > practice. > .... > S:That's good. > .... > >And it's not a stretch for me to imagine that by having a > > more focussed and energetic practice, I will bring a lot more > > wholesome energy out into the world and into the classroom where I > > teach. So a single gesture by Sarah (and link from Robert) will end > > up having something of what I call a Metta ripple effect here in > > Japan, no > > matter how piddly it turns out to be due to my lack of diligence. > ..... >> ..... > > There are countless examples of this sort of thing in all our lives, > > of course. > .... > > ..... > >I seem to be very interested in this kind of thing but > > don't have enough knowledge of the Dhamma to know if I am just > > cooking up my own pretty notions or not. > .... > It's a good topic. I'd like to hear more from others. Metta ripples sound > pretty good as long as there isn't any idea of metta radiation or > transferring of metta to others. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s > ====== > > > 30536 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Ajahn Jose Sorry to hear your hospital stay. Which hospital in Canberra are you staying for operation? Only yesterday (23 February 2004), I visited Canberra Hospital between 2 p.m and 5 p.m. The niece of my (psychiatric) patient is also undergoing surgery on her 3 broken backbones from the skijet accident. When you let me know more details about suitable time to visit you, I would certainly come and see you. I wish you speedy recovery. With fivefold-touch bow, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose wrote: Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose 30537 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. dear Larry, Andrew, Nina and Howard, Thanks for your help. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Azita, > > A: "(II 114,17-19)" > Firstly, I cannot figure out these numbers" > > L: Look on page 608. "II" is the book, "114" is the bracketed PTS page > number, and "17-19" is the lines on that PTS page. Highly cryptic!!! It > took forever to figure it out :-))) Maybe he explained his numbering system, but I probably skimmed over that bit. I agree with you, Larry, it is highly cryptic! > A: "Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." but > imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the > impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I > understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting > each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that > nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds." > > L: The two sheaves are consciousness and namarupa. Consciousness is > included in "nama" only in abhidhamma classifications. In the dependent > arising formula consciousness is not included in nama. You could think > of namarupa as body and personality, or body and identity (something > like that), the basic DNA package. Because namarupa and consciousness > are codependent, we might say sankhara conditions the arising of both, > and both condition the arising of the 6 sense bases. But Nina might not > like that:-) > Actually, Nina has said, and you've probably read it already, that 'here the method of the Dependent Origination is used. Vinnana is vipaka at rebirth or during life. This conditions cetasikas and rupa'. Is this so different to what you are saying? BTW, I do enjoy the dialogue bet. you and Nina on various topics. I have learnt quite a lot. Thanx. > Larry Still think its a long, long way to Nibbana, Andrew. Azita. 30538 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote:I'm eagerly reading ADL and the Paramis book these days. I find > that reading them concurrently is interesting, because the profusion > of new terms in ADL finds a context in the Paramis book that > reinforces their meaning for me. I find myself waking up in the > middle of the night and reading them. It's very thrilling. I'd been > going along for close to a year with only a vague understanding of > what the Khandas are about, and now they are so much more clear. > > > P: I'm very interested in the 4 Efforts, if that's the way they > are usually translated. Discouraging the arising of unwholesome > thoughts, removing those that have arisen, encouraging the arising of > wholesome ones, and nurturing those that have arisen. If I've > understood the reading I've done, wholesome citta are conditioned and > arise due to past wholesome deeds. So it is not a matter or resolving > to give rise to them. (This runs counter to the kind of Metta > meditation I've been doing, in a way. I do a lot of conceptual work > that doesn't fall in with the practice laid out in ADL. But it's all > good, for this beginner, at least. I'll be more rigorous in the > future, I imagine.) Nevertheless, I'm curious about how we can > contribute to the 4 Efforts of > others, either consciously or unconsciously. ===== Hi Philip, I first picked up my copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life in Sri lanka in 1989. I was like you, thrilled. So clear and productive of energy. Do you see how wholesome energy arises even without wishing it would arise. It can't be stopped when conditions are such. On the other hand some people read the same book and feel discouraged- the path seems long, or they wish there could be a way to control dhammas. Different conditions. Now you feel energized and would like to change the world, very natural. This comes with pleasant feeling, but pleasant feeling arises also with lobha (tanha) and so wanting that feeling to last the wholesome may soon change to a subtle tanha (craving), and it is very natural that this happens too. Vital to acknowledge these disguised akusala, so that self-deception, the enemy of spiritual practice doesn't grow. The way of practice is not so much to preference one over the other but to see the conditionality of it all. Then the idea of self is being gradually erased. As that happens it is easier for other parami to develop, and as they develop they support wisdom, a virtuous circle. But very gradual. Patience, khanti, is the supreme austerity in Buddhism. RobertK 30539 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello Sarah, and all. >The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand candles, or words to that effect. >> S: I'd be curious to follow this up if anyone has the reference. P: I can't find it again in the "Teaching of the Buddha" , which I see now seems to be a Pure Land Buddhism publication, thousgh it's not clearly identified as such. I did a Google search and found the quotation at all sorts of "Inspirational Quotations" sites, but they never provide references. The exact quotation is "A thousands candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." I can see now that it is a Mahayana concept - it almost sounds like it's talking about an Atman, actually - and doesn't really get at the "Metta ripple effect" I was wondering about. That's only considered in the first part - "A thousand candles can be lighted from a single candle." It's a nice idea, at least. Metta, Philip 30540 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy: To Nina and Sarah Dear Suan, Thanks for all your interesting comments. Actually, I find for the most part that this translation and new edition of the Kathavatthu is very good. Perhaps, thanks to the influence of Shwe Zan Aung the co-translator. I see it was first published in 1915 and really I’m most grateful for all the work (in spite of any misguided views) by these early English translators, though I used to be more put off by some comments in other texts. I particularly like Bimala Churn Law’s translation of the commentary, first published in 1940 and I note, reprinted as a result of generosity by ‘patrons in Thailand’. I just saw your note to Bhante and intention to visit him in hospital. That’s very kind, Suan. Anumodana. I’m sure he’ll appreciate your company and support and perhaps he’ll give you his bound-to-be hilarious account of his day with some of us and K.Sujin at the Foundation in Bangkok. Metta, Sarah ======= 30541 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > I first picked up my copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life in Sri lanka > in 1989. I was like you, thrilled. So clear and productive of > energy. > Do you see how wholesome energy arises even without wishing it would > arise. It can't be stopped when conditions are such. On the other > hand some people read the same book and feel discouraged- the path > seems long, or they wish there could be a way to control dhammas. > Different conditions. P: Hello Robert, and all. It's all very interesting. I've been keen, for some reason, on thinking in terms of defilements and hindrances for about 15 years now, though not in a Buddhist context until the last couple of years, and have been told by various friends over the years that I try too hard. And evidence supports them on this, because the amount of progress I've made in uprooting bad habit energies compared to the amount of talking I do about doing so is pretty meagre! But the intention has remained, and now I feel very happy to have found a way to get at the defilements in a clear-cut way. The book came my way like so many other things, but it grabbed my attention when I started reading it because the conditions were there for that to happen, as you said. Very interesting. And how nice to have a forum to discuss defilements without considered a joyless puritan for using the term. That seems to be the reaction I got at general Buddhist forums when I tried to talk about deliements and hindrances. > Now you feel energized and would like to change the world, very > natural. This comes with pleasant feeling, but pleasant feeling > arises also with lobha (tanha) and so wanting that feeling to last > the wholesome may soon change to a subtle tanha (craving), and it is > very natural that this happens too. Vital to acknowledge these > disguised akusala, so that self-deception, the enemy of spiritual > practice doesn't grow. P:The craving is already here. I have all my sutta and dhamma talks printed out and sorted into different coloured binders, and I sit there picking up one after another and flipping throught them, thinking with great satisfaction how wise I'll be when I've read them all and absorbed them and about how I'll be able to help people and sometimes, I have to admit, how people will love and admire me for it. I do, I'm afraid. Fortunately I'm aware of it and am able to laugh at it now. I will press ahead towards an understanding of absolutely reality which will eventually free me from that kind of craving and attachment, but for the time being they are there, for sure. > The way of practice is not so much to preference one over the other > but to see the conditionality of it all. Then the idea of self is > being gradually erased. I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa and nama in the moment. I've found myself doing that the last couple of days. When tired and a bit blue on the way home after a long day, just checking the things that are arising in the light of what I've read in her books. Sensing the conditionality. Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to now. And while it doesn't make me perk up, it allows me to let go of the struggle to try to feel better. A kind of liberation, of course. Already. >As that happens it is easier for other > parami to develop, and as they develop they support wisdom, a > virtuous circle. But very gradual. Patience, khanti, is the supreme > austerity in Buddhism. "In Patience shall ye possess your soul." That's from Matthew. Not hat I was ever a Christian, but that line has always stuck with me. I think it's true. Khanti will be an important practice for me. (My job teaching English to painfully shy and socially awkward adults certainly gives me a lot of opportunities to practice!) Thank you for your encouragement, Robert. I trust that you and all members will not hesitate to point out my misunderstanding when it arises, which it will. Metta, Philip 30542 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thank you for participating this study corner. I think at the moment the topic is on recognizing whether something is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The Buddha taught Mahapajapati Gotami that: "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" So it is based on these eight pairs of principles or criteria, one can examine for him or herself whether something is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. As I see it, 'these qualities' in the passage has much broader meaning than 'what is being said.' They include one's actions and conduct, skillful or unskillful. They also include the principle in accordance or not in accordance to the principle of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. The objective for this study is twofold: First, to know these eight principles. Secondly, to apply these eight principles. The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study with passages from the discourses. We can discuss and verify these principles in relation to the discourse passages. We can also come up with our own examples (such as thoughts about Mel Gibson in shower) such that we can apply these eight principles. If you like, we can also examine some doctrines in the Abhidhamma Pitaka with respect to the eight principles. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & Christine, > > A good study corner;-) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > I think I get your point regarding 'This is the Dhamma, this is the > > Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' having a stirring ring to > > it. > ..... > `eso dhammo eso vinayo eta'n satthusàsananti'. > `this is the Dhamma; this is the Vinaya; this is the Master's Teaching.' > > I take this to refer to Dhamma-Vinaya, the entire Tipitaka and > Buddha-vacana. 84,000 units of Dhamma-Vinaya text was rehearsed at the > first council, including Abhidhamma. > > See these posts which elaborate and give the other AN sutta Nina referred > to with details of the `Nine factors of the Norm': > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25396.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25397.html > > >Recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction > > is an affirming experience, if not without a sense of conviction and > > joy. > > I agree with this but not with your definitions below! Vinaya refers to > the Vinaya Pitaka rehearsed first at the council and Dhamma refers to the > Sutta and Abhidhamma Pitakas or the rest of the nine divisions. Please let > me know if you have further comments for discussion on this favourite > topic of mine;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah 30543 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/24/04 2:33:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > > Howard: "When you are happy, are you typically unaware of that? When you > are angry? When you hear a sound?" > > Hi Howard, > > Let's take angry. That's the easiest for me. When I am angry, what is > happening? There is internal, consciousness produced tangible data. This > tangible data is felt as unpleasant feeling but the tangible data itself > is rupa. What is the feeling? I know it is there but I can't really > "see" it. Wraped around that is the angry cetasika or consciousness. > This I can't really "see" either, but I know it is there. In addition to > this, conceit arises as complex little bubbles that I know are there but > can't really "see". There are probably at least two sets of unpleasant > feeling consciousness produced tangible data: one has to do with being > angry, the other is a reaction to being angry. In addition to this is a > story strung together with vitakka and vicara out of the "cookie jar" of > perception (sanna). Precipitating this whole thing is a desire. > > I can't really identify any of this stuff precisely, but I know it is > there. The only phenomena that could be pointed to is the internal > tangible data. Because I can point to it, I suspect I am not looking at > it very carefully. > > Larry > > ============================== You're correct with regard to precision. There is so much stuff going on that it is near impossible to separate it all out as far as identification is concerned. But it is all experienced, though not all identified or remembered. With powerful analytic meditation, the sifting out improves. Mindfulness and clear comprehension can be cultivated. But aside from difficulty in sifting one phenomenon from another, about which I think you are quite correct, when an element of experience *is* discerned, generally nama seems like nama, and rupa seems like rupa. It is no easier to separate, sift out, and distinguish nama from nama and rupa from rupa than it is to sift out nama from rupa. In fact, it is typically somewhat easier, it seems, to distinguish nama from rupa than nama from nama or rupa from rupa. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30544 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:20am Subject: Sensing Dhamma as they really are ( 03 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator is peacefully meditating and he is experiencing each by each, bit by bit, and all these are building up. What are these? These are all he sees with his own mind eye. Here 'his own mind eye' is just an expression not to confuse with Atta. At a time, he has been well concentrated and he is being peaceful. But as all dhamma in Sankhata Dhatu domain ( that is in worldly place ) are conditioned, his concentrated mind stays for a while and it passes away. Another mind state arises and this again passes away and there are many many endless mind states which arise successively. This is viewing from outside and not by that meditator. What he sees is that after a while when his concentrated mind has gone away, next arising mind states once hit something. That something is annoyance. He at first did not know that he went into hatred mind states. But later on, he realizes that there has arisen a mind state with hatred. He notes that a mind state with hatred arises. When these mind states persist, he notes that they persist. And when they pass away, he notes they pass away. These mind states are called hindrances. They are Byapada Nivarana. This dhamma hindrance is not him, not his and there is no person in the whole process that are happening on. He notices that there is no Atta. May all beings be free from Atta belief. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30545 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:16am Subject: A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Hi, all - It occurs to me that understanding vi~n~nana as subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing subject) and namarupa as objectivity (i.e., the sense of objects known by a knowing subject) helps explain certain things not easily understood otherwise. One of these is the following segment of the 12-fold linkage of dependent arising: vi~n~nana --> namarupa --> salayatana If one wishes to interpret dependent origination not just in the 3-lifetime mode, but also in the "right-now" mode, this segment seems problematical. If vi~n~nana is merely awareness and namarupa is merely namic and rupic phenomena (in the context of dependent origination), why is salayatana given as consequence? It would seem clear that sense-door activation should only be a necessary condition *for* awareness, not a consequence of it! But now think of this in the following terms: Vi~n~nana is subjectivity, namarupa is objectivity, and salayatana constitutes the sense doors that provide the connection/conduit between the two. A doorway or conduit between two things is dependent on those things. Without subjectivity and objectivity, there can't be a conduit between them. And, in fact, this goes a long way towards helping one understand the "unraveling" aspect of dependent origination: From the cessation of ignorance (the propensity to I-making), comes the cessation of sankharic construction, from which comes the cessation of subjectivity, from which comes the cessation of objectivity, from which comes the cessation of conduits between subjectivity and objectivity, from which comes the cessation of contact, from which comes the cessation of self-oriented feeling, from which comes the cessation of craving, from which comes the cessation of clinging, from which comes the cessation of becoming, from which comes the cessation of birth, and death, and the whole mass of suffering. Every arahant, and most especially, the Buddha, went through this entire eradication process. But the Buddha still experienced, and he still felt. Is that a contradiction? I think it is not. In the Buddha there was no ignorance, hence no sankharic construction (in particular no self-oriented volition), hence no subjectivity and objectivity, hence no conduit between such, hence no contact, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, and no suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30546 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the Ship Hi James, Thank you very much for the B.B. version with notes and your comments. I save it all in a special file. I also like your notes. Rotting away appeals to me. op 23-02-2004 23:10 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I have: > "Suppose, bhikkhus, there was a seafaring ship bound with rigging > that had been worn away in the water for six months. (snip) > > James' Note: (snip) I think this > more accurately and wonderfully describes the process of becoming an > arahant. After all, becoming an arahant is removing the supports for > ignorance until the false sense of self falls away on its own. This > process can't be speeded up; it has to occur naturally and slowly. > Additionally, this metaphor demonstrates how the Buddhist > practitioner doesn't follow the mores and standards of the society at > large. Society would value the ship and try to keep it in good > working order (i.e. building and rebuilding the ego continually) but > the Buddhist takes delight in letting the ship fall apart. It is a > beautiful metaphor! N: And it shows how long it takes! I just heard on tape that when people say: it takes so long, so long, they are actually praising the Buddha who had to develop the perfections for so long, so long before he could become the Fully Enlightened One. > J: Nina, I hope this post has been of some assistance. I'm sorry but I > can't speak directly to `latent tendencies' because I am not an > expert in that regard. I hope that your book is coming along > nicely. N: The latent tendencies are deeply rooted accumulated defilements (senseuous desire, anger, ignorance, wrong view, conceit etc) which do not come to the surface, arising with the akusala citta, but they are the very conditions for the arising of akusala citta. They can only be eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment by supramundane cittas. My translation from the Thai may have to wait a long time! Thank you again, Nina. 30547 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_( §_1.2.) Hi Victor, op 24-02-2004 00:24 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > When one sees an image of Mel Gibson, or himself in person, he or > she might pick up/grasp a theme of handsomeness or sexiness that > leads to thoughts in sensuality and passion. So to guard the doors > of one's senses, he or she would not grasp at any theme or details > (sexy smiles, eyes, physiques, voice, etc.) and dwell on them such > that they lead to unskillful qualities such as sensual desires and > passion. N: We all see, cannot avoid it. But what is seen? only visible object or colour. Only after the seeing unskillful thoughts can arise. When we come to know seeing as an impersonal element arisen because of conditions, and visible object as only visible object, not Mell, there is no dwelling on details or images. And when there are conditions to dwell on Mel, well even that, the attchament, is an impersonal element. We shall attach less importance to that attachment and to the person of Mell (I never heard of him before, no idea!). Thus there will not be such forcing: O let me not think of Mel, and than that very thought is bound to arise. It can all be very natural. Nina. 30548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] AJAHN JOSE in hospital Bhante, I am concerned about your health. I very much appreciated your presence at the session with A. Sujin. I shall never forget that you showed your book with texts of rituals to Jon and recited: These words deeply stirred me. Our whole life is contained in them. When we are sick, all kinds of rupas and vipakacittas arising and falling away are contained in avyakata dhamma. Then our reactions to what we experience are contained in kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma. These words remind me that there are only these dhammas, not I who experiences. It can comfort us in time of sickness and misery. As A. Sujin often says: My you have a speedy recovery, all my best wishes to you, Nina. op 24-02-2004 03:11 schreef Ajahn Jose op ajahnjose@y...: Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. 30549 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/24/04 4:49:53 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: “There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, (Natthi jhaana’m apa~n~nassa) Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato*) In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. (sa ve nibbaanasantike) *see earlier discussions on jhaaya and jhaayatha, often translated as meditate, meditation and jhana. Here are some comments RobK and Jim gave before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Sarah, Thanks for the excellent link. I posted before that I thought the split into jhana and vipassana was not in the suttas but began with the Visudhi. RopK and Jim's analysis seems to bear out this misunderstanding of the word "jhana." In that previous post, I quoted http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. jack 30550 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/24/04 4:49:53 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: “There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, (Natthi jhaana’m apa~n~nassa) Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato*) In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. (sa ve nibbaanasantike) *see earlier discussions on jhaaya and jhaayatha, often translated as meditate, meditation and jhana. Here are some comments RobK and Jim gave before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Sarah, Thanks for the excellent link. I posted before that I thought the split into jhana and vipassana was not in the suttas but began with the Visudhi. RopK and Jim's analysis seems to bear out this misunderstanding of the word "jhana." In that previous post, I quoted http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. jack 30551 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, > > I want to say that I find your post (#30452) to Ken reasonable. I > think it is wise to keep silent if the communication becomes > draining. > > Metta, > Victor Thank you for the encouraging words. I came across this sutta quote which I think is applicable: "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these -- 'You understand this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' -- he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html Metta, James 30552 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: Thanks for the excellent link. I posted before that I thought the split into > jhana and vipassana was not in the suttas but began with the Visudhi. RopK and > Jim's analysis seems to bear out this misunderstanding of the word "jhana." > In that previous post, I quoted > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same > thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada > Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at > http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. > > Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. > > jack Hi Jack, The `split' into vipassana meditation and jhana meditation is in the suttas. See the Samadhi Sutta, which starts with: "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to meditation. Metta, James 30553 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear James: Buddhaghosa gives us a good definition of Jhana at some Chapter of Visuddhimagga mentioned here before: twofold as usual. The first is the common Buddhistic Doctrinal definition, as one can read on Suttas, The second is the wonderful and unique Buddhaghosa's method of debunking criticism - "Jhana" is a Pali word that came of twofold roots, "Thinking" and "Burn". At one side we get a familiar approach with the famous Tibetan tantric methods, that requires up years of constant practising... At the other side we must give the golden prize to Nina: Jhana is really beyond the scope of the common man at this daily life, and a more feasible door to insight stands on a careful pratice of Vipassana! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course > it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there > are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both > concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to > meditation. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- My personal retailer had reserved me a hardcover BPS copy of Visuddhimagga...hooray!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30554 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Only to add, I picked up a Jim Anderson's entry at the Pali group: --------------------------------------------------------------------- I: " Buddhaghosa gives us a good definition of Jhana at some Chapter of > Visuddhimagga mentioned here before: twofold as usual. > The first is the common Buddhistic Doctrinal definition, as one can > read on Suttas, > The second is the wonderful and unique Buddhaghosa's method of > debunking criticism " ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Anderson: "Jhaana is derived from either "jhe cintaaya.m" or "jhe dittiya.m" (to burn)". --------------------------------------------------------------------- This quote is out of the Sadanitti also. Mettaya, Ícaro 30555 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:45pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear James: > > Buddhaghosa gives us a good definition of Jhana at some Chapter of > Visuddhimagga mentioned here before: twofold as usual. > The first is the common Buddhistic Doctrinal definition, as one can > read on Suttas, > The second is the wonderful and unique Buddhaghosa's method of > debunking criticism - "Jhana" is a Pali word that came of twofold > roots, "Thinking" and "Burn". At one side we get a familiar approach > with the famous Tibetan tantric methods, that requires up years of > constant practising... > At the other side we must give the golden prize to Nina: Jhana is > really beyond the scope of the common man at this daily life, and a > more feasible door to insight stands on a careful pratice of Vipassana! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course > > it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there > > are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both > > concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to > > meditation. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > My personal retailer had reserved me a hardcover BPS copy of > Visuddhimagga...hooray!!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro Huh?? I can't follow the main gist what you are talking about. You seem to write a lot in slogans. ;-)) The only thing I can understand is the last part about what Nina said about Jhana being impossible for householders. Personally, I agree and disagree with that. Obviously, a householder who wishes to practice Jhana would have to make certain changes in lifestyle. To quote a reference about Jhana: "After establishing a foundation of purified morality, the aspirant to meditation is advised to cut off any outer impediments (palibodha) that may hinder his efforts to lead a contemplative life. These impediments are numbered as ten: a dwelling, which becomes an impediment for those who allow their minds to become preoccupied with its upkeep or with its appurtenances; a family of relatives or supporters with whom the aspirant may become emotionally involved in ways that hinder his progress; gains, which may bind the monk by obligations to those who offer them; a class of students who must be instructed; building work, which demands time and attention; travel; kin, meaning parents, teachers, pupils or close friends; illness; the study of scriptures; and supernormal powers, which are an impediment to insight (Vism.90-97; PP.91-98)." http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas02.htm In order for me to get most of these conditions in my life I had to move out of the United States! Of course I still have a class of students but I don't see them all day, everyday, and I am not emotionally involved in their lives. But I also see that `the study of scriptures' can be a hindrance. Hmm…that one will be hard for me to give up! ;-)) (Actually, I am trying to study suttas less and less and practice mindfulness and concentration more and more…you should see a dramatic decrease in my posts to DSG). Metta, James 30556 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Phillip, and all Joyless Puritans :-), Uprooting the defilements is something many of us on this List are very interested in - so talk about them all you want. You may find this chapter by Ven. Payutto worth reading: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise6.htm with joyful metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > It's all very interesting. I've been keen, for some reason, on > thinking in terms of defilements and hindrances for about 15 years > now, though not in a Buddhist context until the last couple of years, > and have been told by various friends over the years that I try too > hard. And evidence supports them on this, because the amount of > progress I've made in uprooting bad habit energies compared to the > amount of talking I do about doing so is pretty meagre! But the > intention has remained, and now I feel very happy to have found a way > to get at the defilements in a clear-cut way. > Metta, > > Philip 30557 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear James: > > Huh?? I can't follow the main gist what you are talking about. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Heheheh... An "I beg your pardon ?" would be sufficient! You must check it out Jim Anderson's entry at Pali Group. The main idea of "Thinking" and "burn" you'll find at some Tibetan ascetic techniques to stand in Padmassana, naked and at mindfulness on the own cold and ice...brrrr!!! You'll find also many remarks on ocidental classic tradition (check it out next Christine Forsyth entry here at dsg!)... "Enflame Thyself", etc, at the old Westminister Primer or the Fantastic Four Human Torch Battlecry: "Flame on!!!!" Mettaya, Ícaro 30558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Victor, Christine and Jack (and Howard and Ken O in an earlier thread) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard > the sense doors'? I understand 'guarding the sense doors' to be a reference to mindfulness, in that it is a function of mindfulness that the sense doors are guarded. If no mindfulness, the sense doors are not guarded. Vism I, 18 18. Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in five ways: restraint by the Rules of the Community (Patimokkha), *restraint by mindfulness*, restraint by knowledge, restraint by patience, and restraint by energy. Herein, ... ‘restraint by mindfulness’ is this: ‘He guards the eye ‘faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty’ (D.I,70). Jon > Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, > one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or > details > by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty > of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed > or distress might assail him. 30559 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Christine, and all. Thank you for the link. I know I'm going to learn a lot from it. Oops! That was a somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikam ekam! ;) > all Joyless Puritans :-) > Uprooting the defilements is something many of us on this List are > very interested in - so talk about them all you want. The folks at the other forum I belonged to seemed to think of a concern about defilements as a kind of self-loathing. They misunderstood the term. In The book on the Paramis, Nina writes "when we develop the perfections we should not expect any gain for ourselves, our goal should be eradication of defilements. If this is not our goal dana, sila and the other wholesome qualities are not perfections leading to enlightenment." I find this this echoes what Ajaan Chah said, that trying to reach purity of mind without working on the defilements is like trying to dye a grimy rag, or words to that effect. I am curious to know what answers my reading and discussion at this group will bring to this question : How and in what ways does loosening the roots of the hindrances and defilements (I assume I will not be able to remove them completely in this lifetime) allow wholesome qualities to shine through me in my daily life in the world? Of course the most important answers will come through my practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. >The trouble is that you think you have time --- I like this line. May I ask the source? Yesterday two ambulances at the same time in oposite directions went by and their sirens brought me back from mental babbling. I will use sirens in that way from now on, in the same way as I see frail and elderly people as helpful messengers to remind me of the true nature of rupa. Metta, Philip 30560 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital abhidhammika wrote: Dear Ajahn Jose Sorry to hear your hospital stay. Which hospital in Canberra are you staying for operation? Only yesterday (23 February 2004), I visited Canberra Hospital between 2 p.m and 5 p.m. The niece of my (psychiatric) patient is also undergoing surgery on her 3 broken backbones from the skijet accident. When you let me know more details about suitable time to visit you, I would certainly come and see you. I wish you speedy recovery. With fivefold-touch bow, Suan ======== Dear Suan, I was at the National Capital Private Hospital. Tonight at 6.30 I am going to see my surgeon to fix the next operation to remove the kidney stones. Metta Ajhan Jose 30561 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hello All. Restraint by mindfulness and patience seem quite obvious but what about restraint by knowledge and by energy? Any ideas how that works? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Victor, Christine and Jack (and Howard and Ken O in an earlier thread) --- yu_zhonghao > wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard > the sense doors'? I understand 'guarding the sense doors' to be a reference to mindfulness, in that it is a function of mindfulness that the sense doors are guarded. If no mindfulness, the sense doors are not guarded. Vism I, 18 18. Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in five ways: restraint by the Rules of the Community (Patimokkha), *restraint by mindfulness*, restraint by knowledge, restraint by patience, and restraint by energy. Herein, ... 'restraint by mindfulness' is this: 'He guards the eye 'faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty' (D.I,70). Jon > Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, > one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or > details > by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty > of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed > or distress might assail him. 30562 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > P: I'm very interested in the 4 Efforts, if that's the way they > are usually translated. ... > Could anyone tell me how these 4 Efforts are termed in Pali, so > I > can refer to them again? Thanks. This is an interesting area. Here are some links and references to have a look at. Jon http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/padhaana.htm: padhána 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid. (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. (3) "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (píti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentraton (samádhi), equanimity (upekkhá). This is called the effort to develop. (4) "What now is the effort to maintain? The monk keeps firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as the mental image of a skeleton, a corpse infested by worms, a corpse blueblack in colour, a festering corpse, a corpse riddled with holes, a corpse swollen up. This is called the effort to maintain" (A. IV, 14). See under 'Effort' in the Useful Posts at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ 30563 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Greeting to Nina van Gorkom Hello Nina I am reading two of your books with great interest, and would like to thank you for having made them available on the internet. I would like to make a donation to some charity in lieu of payment. Are there any sanghas or Buddhist charity groups that you are concerned are lacking dana support these days? I have no idea about where or how to offer material dana. As we say here in Japan "yoroshiku onegai shimasu." I don't know how to translate that, but I know you've lived in Japan and will understand. Metta, Philip 30564 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.3.) Hi all, I think when sensual desire and passion arises, the following passage would be an excellent reminder. This, as I see it, is the Dhamma that leads to dispassion, not to passion: "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 1.3. > Sister Nanda: > > "Sick, putrid, unclean: > look, Nanda, at this physical heap. > Through contemplation of the foul, > develop your mind, > make it one, well-centered. > As this [your body], so that. > As that, so this. > It gives off a foul stench, > the delight of fools." > > Considering it thus, > untiring, both day & night, > I, with my own discernment > dissecting it, > saw. > > And as I, heedful, > examined it aptly, > this body -- as it actually is -- > was seen inside & out. > > Then was I disenchanted with the body > & dispassionate within: > Heedful, detached, > calmed was I. > > Unbound. > > > [Thig V.4] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig05 > .html#4 30565 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:23pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.4, § 1.5.) Hi all, I have read through the passages § 1.4 and § 1.5, and I find them share a similarity: both passage are about the encounter between one who is dispassionate and one who is not. In passage § 1.4, the contrast between what the libertine said, which definitely leads to passion, and what Subha the nun said is strong. Eventually, Subha the nun plucked out her eyes, an ultimate act of dispassion, and the libertine came to his senses. In § 1.5, the interaction between Ven. Anuruddha and the woman also show the distinction between dispassion and passion. I feel that Ven. Anuruddha was in a situation that is very dangerous for one who does not guard and keep control of his sense faculties. Metta, Victor 30566 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.4, § 1.5.) Hi all, Here is the link to the page where passages § 1.4 and § 1.5. can be found: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I have read through the passages § 1.4 and § 1.5, and I find them > share a similarity: both passage are about the encounter between one > who is dispassionate and one who is not. > > In passage § 1.4, the contrast between what the libertine said, > which definitely leads to passion, and what Subha the nun said is > strong. Eventually, Subha the nun plucked out her eyes, an ultimate > act of dispassion, and the libertine came to his senses. > > In § 1.5, the interaction between Ven. Anuruddha and the woman also > show the distinction between dispassion and passion. I feel that > Ven. Anuruddha was in a situation that is very dangerous for one who > does not guard and keep control of his sense faculties. > > > Metta, > Victor 30567 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip K: Just like to add my two cents of thoughts. When there is self loathing as you mentioned of folks at the other forum, it only increase aversion which is adding defilements to defilements. This is a vicious cycle. P: How and in what ways does loosening the roots of the hindrances and defilements (I assume I will not be able to remove them completely in this lifetime) allow wholesome qualities to shine through me in my daily life in the world? k: My opinion is always seeing the nature objects of the six senses and seeing them as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Since we cannot run away from these, they make excellent learning/practise dhamma a living moment. By seeing dhammas in such a way, it is already wholesome. J: Of course the most important answers will come through my practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. k: I think desire or wish is very different from greed or attachment. I think because at times when we read books, some authors used desire interchangeable with greed, this cause a lot of confusion. You may like to read Nina book on cetasikas where it describe the word Chandha (zeal or desire or wish to do) and lobha (attachment). When we desire to listen to dhammas or consider dhammas by reading books, it is not greed, it is chandha. Ken O 30568 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Hi, all - And yet one more thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if vi~n~nana is subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing self), it is clear, I think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30569 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > K: Just like to add my two cents of thoughts. When there is self > loathing as you mentioned of folks at the other forum, it only > increase aversion which is adding defilements to defilements. This > is a vicious cycle. P: Hi Ken, and all. I should clarify that the people at that other forum weren't engaged in self-loathing - it seemed that they though *I* was because of my interest in working on the defilements. It seems that because of an aversion to some aspects of other relgions that stress corrupt and fallen human nature etc some Buddhists (my Zen friends in particular) seem to think that talk of defilements amounts to self-flagellation and self-loathing, which of course it doesn't. > P: How and in what ways does loosening the roots of the hindrances > and defilements (I assume I will not be able to remove them > completely in this lifetime) allow wholesome qualities to shine > through me in my daily life in the world? > > k: My opinion is always seeing the nature objects of the six senses > and seeing them as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Since we cannot run > away from these, they make excellent learning/practise dhamma a > living moment. By seeing dhammas in such a way, it is already > wholesome. P: Yes, it's wonderful. My limited reading in Nina's books is already helping me to check on paramattha dhamma realities in the moment. I feel like a big wide window has been opened. I had been doing so to some extent in my practice already, but in a very inconsistent way. It seems that the concepts taught through the Abhidhamma will help me to practice in a much more consistent way. > J: Of course the most important answers will come through my > practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers > which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. > > k: I think desire or wish is very different from greed or > attachment. I think because at times when we read books, some > authors used desire interchangeable with greed, this cause a lot of > confusion. You may like to read Nina book on cetasikas where it > describe the word Chandha (zeal or desire or wish to do) and lobha > (attachment). When we desire to listen to dhammas or consider > dhammas by reading books, it is not greed, it is chandha. P: Thank you for teaching me about Chandha. I will add that book to my reading list. And yet I'm still aware that an aspect of my interest in dhamma is an unhealthy attachment. I have to be honest and acknowledge that there is a part of me that aims to become a wise man that people will look up to. I will keep an eye on that fellow and try not to feed him. :) Metta, Philip 30570 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor and (James) First let me apologise for being too hard on both of you. Victor: Maybe I give you too brief of an answer to your question of dispassion, this time I provide a more detail one. Lets deal with the first two qualites, dispassion and unfettered. Passion and desire are dependent on the meeting of eye and forms. Hence in another way there is fetter. If you see your quote on 1.5 where Ven. Anuruddha in dispassion when his eyes and form met, it will not be possible for this Ven if he does not understand the four Noble Truth because desire and passion will have arise in him. In many suttas, acquiring of direct knowledge is about understanding the four Noble truth (if you wish I could provide you the suttas quote). Thus learning the 8NP leads one to dipassion and unfettered (right understanding and right view) When one is unfettered, one sheds, to me it is shedding of the three unwholesome roots. When one shed the three unwholesome roots, the attachment to self (atta) will also be shed, that means one is naturally modest. Again when one shed attachment to self, one will shed that one will gain this or that and that is what I call one is contented. Then again how does one is contented, one follow the Pattimoka (usually as the perfection for a virture/morality of venerables), that is vinaya (Right speech, action and livelihood)(also righ view because one is contented one dont covet). When one shed attachment to self, one is no longer in entangalement. One does not entangle with dhammas that this is I, this mine, this is myself. One will see dhammas as anatta. When one consider suffering and impermanence, one understanding there is nothing to gain in sensual pleasure which only lead to more suffering, one arose zeal (Right Effort) naturally to endeavour to release ourselves from this suffering. Hence resulting on is persistence in practising satipatthana (right mindfulness) in eradicating the three unwholesome roots. When one is in persistence, one is unburdersome by the defilements or material needs, then one is withdraw of sensual pleasure, one attains jhanas etc.... (right concentration) Hence the whole eight qualities are found in the 8NP and that is why I said right understanding of the six senses (which is inflame with tanha) of the three characteristics as my brief answer. Then you asked Sarah how does Abhdidhamma applies here? For myself, I take this opportunity to explain why is a need to know namas and rupas. When we discern rupas as rupas and namas as namas, it helps to break down the conceptual world especiall when we are surrounded by five of the six senses which are rupas. If we see the example of the venerable, the lady is just the beauitful form is just visible rupa, sweet sound is just sound rupa and perfume is just aroma rupas, the concept of lady vanishes. We also note the rupas with the three characteristics. When this concept vanish, the tendecy of lobha to arise due to conditioned by a concept will also decrease. Alternatively, when lobha arise due to conditioning by a concept, we understand lobha with three characteristics. We dont worry whether it is conditioned by a lady concept, we must note lobha as lobha and lobha with the three characteristics. Without understanding reality, we will be moving around in circles in this conceptual samasara world. Ken O 30571 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip Reading you post spur me with zeal to consider dhamma more and more. I encourage you to work to undertsand defilements as what you have done, because only when we know the disease then we are able to cure it and not the other way around. Ken O 30572 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O, Thank you for your detail answer. From passage § 1.5., what the woman did in front of Ven. Anuruddha obviously leads to passion, not dispassion. One thing I see as the Vinaya that leads to dispassion, as Ven. Anuruddha demonstrated, is 'keeping control of his faculties, didn't as much as glance at her or say even a word.' Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor and (James) [snip] > Victor: > Maybe I give you too brief of an answer to your question of > dispassion, this time I provide a more detail one. > > Lets deal with the first two qualites, dispassion and unfettered. > Passion and desire are dependent on the meeting of eye and forms. > Hence in another way there is fetter. If you see your quote on 1.5 > where Ven. Anuruddha in dispassion when his eyes and form met, it > will not be possible for this Ven if he does not understand the four > Noble Truth because desire and passion will have arise in him. In > many suttas, acquiring of direct knowledge is about understanding the > four Noble truth (if you wish I could provide you the suttas quote). > Thus learning the 8NP leads one to dipassion and unfettered (right > understanding and right view) > > When one is unfettered, one sheds, to me it is shedding of the three > unwholesome roots. When one shed the three unwholesome roots, the > attachment to self (atta) will also be shed, that means one is > naturally modest. > > Again when one shed attachment to self, one will shed that one will > gain this or that and that is what I call one is contented. Then > again how does one is contented, one follow the Pattimoka (usually as > the perfection for a virture/morality of venerables), that is vinaya > (Right speech, action and livelihood)(also righ view because one is > contented one dont covet). > > When one shed attachment to self, one is no longer in entangalement. > One does not entangle with dhammas that this is I, this mine, this is > myself. One will see dhammas as anatta. > > When one consider suffering and impermanence, one understanding there > is nothing to gain in sensual pleasure which only lead to more > suffering, one arose zeal (Right Effort) naturally to endeavour to > release ourselves from this suffering. Hence resulting on is > persistence in practising satipatthana (right mindfulness) in > eradicating the three unwholesome roots. > > When one is in persistence, one is unburdersome by the defilements or > material needs, then one is withdraw of sensual pleasure, one attains > jhanas etc.... (right concentration) > > Hence the whole eight qualities are found in the 8NP and that is why > I said right understanding of the six senses (which is inflame with > tanha) of the three characteristics as my brief answer. > > Then you asked Sarah how does Abhdidhamma applies here? > > For myself, I take this opportunity to explain why is a need to know > namas and rupas. When we discern rupas as rupas and namas as namas, > it helps to break down the conceptual world especiall when we are > surrounded by five of the six senses which are rupas. If we see the > example of the venerable, the lady is just the beauitful form is just > visible rupa, sweet sound is just sound rupa and perfume is just > aroma rupas, the concept of lady vanishes. We also note the rupas > with the three characteristics. When this concept vanish, the tendecy > of lobha to arise due to conditioned by a concept will also decrease. > > Alternatively, when lobha arise due to conditioning by a concept, we > understand lobha with three characteristics. We dont worry whether > it is conditioned by a lady concept, we must note lobha as lobha and > lobha with the three characteristics. Without understanding > reality, we will be moving around in circles in this conceptual > samasara world. > > > > Ken O 30573 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > and nama in the moment. N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or not, and this is conditioned by listening. There is no need to stop what one is doing. We should not expect direct awareness to arise at different moments of the day, it will arise when there are conditions for it. It is best not even to think of sati. The most important is right understanding and that has to begin at the level of intellectual understanding. That is a foundation that can condition later on direct understanding. Not us who can stop and check *our awareness*. Ph: I have to admit, how people will love and admire me for it. I do, I'm afraid. Fortunately I'm aware of it and am able to laugh at it now. N: I like this part, very sincere. We have to develop the perfection of truthfulness, being honest as to oneself also. Knowing that what we take for awareness is still thinking. I laugh too at such things. I told my husband Lodewijk, that I was praised on dsg and that I had immediately conceit. He beat his breast and cried out loudly: conceit, conceit! We are really joking about it, it helps in a way to take distance. Next day there is blame for sure. These are merely very short moments conditioned by kamma. But instead of pinpointing all such things we can learn characteristics of realities when they appear, very gradually, as A. Sujin says time and again. Ph: Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to now. N: I used to take thinking (even in a flash) for awareness, but I was cured of that after discussions in the train in India with A. Sujin, the late Ven. Dhammadharo, Jon and others. A. Sujin said, I do not find this discouraging. It is true, and truthfulness can only bring us good. What is the use of deluding ourselves. And also now, it is difficult to know when there is thinking of realities and when awareness. But I tend to think less of sati. Understanding is the goal and this leads to detachment. First detachment from the idea of self. Nice talking to you, Nina. 30574 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, op 24-02-2004 15:53 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: I think at the > moment the topic is on recognizing whether something is the Dhamma, > the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The Buddha taught > Mahapajapati Gotami that: > > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > to passion, not to dispassion;(snipped) You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: etc. N: Yes, quite right. Let us combine Sarah's quotes from the Intro to the Vinaya and what you quote here. I see it this way: the Buddha taught the Three Baskets and stressed that we should compare text with text, examine the truth. And the practice should be in agreement with the truth. like in the Kesaputta sutta (called Kalama) we should verify the practice with all he taught in the Three Baskets. We can verify:what leads to more attachment, what leads to detachment. Whatever we practise should lead to detachment. This is the goal. We can come to the conclusion: understanding realities appearing at this moment is in accordance with what we read before in the texts. I just heard on tape A. Sujin saying: This seems simple and very general, but it means: performing kusala not for one's own sake, not with an idea of my kusala. As Sarah quoted: the Abhidhamma helps us to see that there is no self. We learn to see citta, cetasika and rupa as very impersonal, impersonal elements arising because of conditions. We learn to see the momentariness of dhammas when we study processes of cittas. Details help. I appreciate the way you lead this discussion, Victor. It helps me to consider more. Nina. 30575 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor There is no doubt that there are benefits of Vinaya. Vinaya is only the start of the practise take, a look at Ganakamoggallana Sutta, Vinaya is equates to morality, then after there are other gradual training like sense control etc....(which are all part and parcel of 8NP) Hence to me vinaya is a leading tool but not a total tool by itself I think we must not forget that mental portion because Buddha describe mental more powerful than physical actions. See Upali Sutta MN 56 Let me quote you this sutta portion < The sutta carries on ... When it is said keeping control of the faculties, it is not just Vinaya. I think Vinaya only covers the way Monks look at people, I do not know whether it includes hearing and smelling faculties. Neverthesless, let take a look at this sutta MN 451, Kandaraka Sutta "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its sign and features. Since if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he practise the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty.....hearing, smelling, flavouring and congnizing of a mind object." So we can see these are all mostly mental portion and not physical. Ken O P.S> I think it will be good if you get the MN and SN suttas translated by Bodhi. There are more sutta for you to look and investigate than those in accesstoinsight suttas. 30576 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Philip, > op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > > we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > > and nama in the moment. > N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case > there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something > constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or > not, and this is conditioned by listening. There is no need to stop what one > is doing. We should not expect direct awareness to arise at different > moments of the day, it will arise when there are conditions for it. P: Hello Nina. That was a careless wording on my part. I should have said "this beginner" instead of "us", and perhaps "this group" instead of "Nina's books." The realites in the Abhidhamma, and those discussed at this group, are new to me, so there will be an awkward stage while, still firmly bundled in self, I begin to learn how to see beyond all my conceptual baggage to absolute realities. In my case, it will mean consciously using certain times of the day - for example when I'm sitting on the train or walking home or walking down the corridor toward the classroom where I teach English - to do so. This will represent nothing more than a beginner's first steps. Sorry for misrepresenting your books! I wonder how I should take this sentence from the preface to ABL: "While we are studying the different names and rupas and while we are pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of rupa and nama appearng at that moment." I took that as a kind of exericise, to be consciously aware of rupa and nama when I find myselfe pondering things, which I invariably do during my train ride to and from work. > It is best not even to think of sati. The most important is right understanding > and that has to begin at the level of intellectual understanding. That is a > foundation that can condition later on direct understanding. Not us who can > stop and check *our awareness*. P: I can see what you mean. That's what I love about this group, the way it gently urges me towards right understanding. In one of my first posts the other day, I said that I feared angry outburts as the greatest danger on the path and someone - I think it was Sarah- hinted that I should consider a lack of right understanding that would allow those angry outbursts to arise as the greatest danger. That was very helpful. Radically helpful. > N: I like this part, very sincere. We have to develop the perfection of > truthfulness, being honest as to oneself also. Knowing that what we take for > awareness is still thinking. I laugh too at such things. Nina van Gorkom liked what I said! I *am* a wise man! :) > Ph: Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to > now. > N: I used to take thinking (even in a flash) for awareness, but I was cured > of that after discussions in the train in India with A. Sujin, the late Ven. > Dhammadharo, Jon and others. I'm afraid I won't be able to let go of my tendency to think in conceptual terms any day soon, but at least I now understand the need to do so. In the meantime, I will try to use my tendency to think in stories in as skillful a way as possible, and being able to think of myself and understand myself as a bundle of aggregates has got to be better than thinking of myself and admiring myself as a vessel of love and light like I used to. Of course I didn't mean to suggest that this "flash" I referred to was anything like a moment of deep insight. Just taking a quick moment to think about Khandas. Alas, I am still a thinking animal. Nice talking to you. Sorry again for misrepresenting your book. It really is very energizing getting into the practice discussed at this group. The last time I can remember being so absorbed in something is when I started studying Japanese Kanji characters about 15 years ago. Metta, Philip 30577 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > P: Hello Nina. > That was a careless wording on my part. I should have said "this > beginner" instead of "us", and perhaps "this group" instead > of "Nina's books." The realites in the Abhidhamma, and those > discussed at this group, are new to me, so there will be an awkward > stage while, still firmly bundled in self, I begin to learn how to > see beyond all my conceptual baggage to absolute realities. In my > case, it will mean consciously using certain times of the day - for > example when I'm sitting on the train or walking home or walking down > the corridor toward the classroom where I teach English - to do so. > This will represent nothing more than a beginner's first steps. Sorry > for misrepresenting your books! I think what you describe here is quite reasonable. Actually though, I would not separate you from others because really we are all beginners. We begin again each minute/second/nano-second. Just as one cannot really see the passing landscape from a speeding vehicle, one cannot really see namas and rupas until there is a stopping, looking, and considering. However, I believe you are going to find that Nina does not agree with this outlook, even for the `beginner'. She emphases that ANY effort to recognize namas and rupas, any `stopping' of superfluous activities to do this, is a reinforcement of the false belief in `self'. Think what you will about this but I believe that such a view makes Buddhism absolutely pointless. If nothing is done is purposefully done, nothing will happen. I am glad that you are enamored with the works of Nina because I believe there is very valuable information to be found there. However, I would also like to suggest that you read the works of other writers whose perspectives on the Abhidhamma don't contain the same `non-action' outlook as Nina posits. Here are some links for you to consider: http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm Metta, James Ps. I don't see a photo of you in the Members folder. Would you mind uploading one? I am curious to see your visage since I am also a fellow English teacher in a foreign land (Cairo, Egypt) ;-). 30578 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:35pm Subject: Repost for Nina & Ven Yanatharo -- Yet more discussion (and food) Dear Bhante & Nina, Nina wrote and asked me to repost some comments I made after returning from Thailand (and not just a link)which she missed and it occurs to me that you, Ven.Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose), may have missed them too, so I'll do so on list. I’m editing my earlier post a little as I go. Others will probably wish to ignore it. (Nina or Bhante, pls ask Christine to repost hers if you didn’t see it either). Metta, Sarah ****** Sarah >For me personally, it was wonderful to see quite a number of very old dhamma friends (around 10 that we’ve known from the 70s), medium old dhamma friends and more recent ones who we’ve got to know from here. Friends were from all over the world and many we’d have liked to have spent more time with and several said the same, but that’s always the way of attachment.(‘Just get to the Dhamma’,KenO will be telling me!!) When Christine mentioned Ven Yanatharo was to be in town at the same time for Robert Eddington’s ordination, we encouraged her to invite them to the discussions too. Only Ven Y. arrived, but there we all were armed with dhamma discussion ‘ammunition’. VenY arrived with his direct questions that others consider asking, but only he would ask A.Sujin, directly, in his loud and clear voice and with a big twinkle in his eye - Qs relating to comments he’d heard about her and the Foundation, about her views on the Sangha, her levels of attainment and so on;-) She’s an expert in answering questions with questions, but it was all in the best of humour. Jon has already mentioned his concern about there not being a Buddha image at the Foundation anywhere. A lot was also heard and considered about the Vinaya and the difficulties of the monk’s life these days by Ven Y. It was pointed out that any life has difficulties;-) I appreciated most Ven Y’s questions about rebirth and self, spirit, soul. We gave answers about why we might have confidence in rebirth and these mostly related to the present moment. I mentioned that while there was no understanding of conditions now, there was bound to be uncertainty about the next moment, next life and an idea of self and so on. I could tell Ven Y found most the answers unconvincing, but when we checked DSG that evening, a friend had given the perfect answer with a quote from the Paccaya Sutta* also indicating that without an understanding of conditions there will always be a wondering about ‘what was I in the past....’, ‘what will I be in the future.....’ and so on. I printed it out to give Ven Y the next day, but we didn’t see him again. Instead, I showed it to Nina's husband, Lodewijk, and he appreciated it. Perhaps Ven Y add his own impressions on this ‘funny little list’ as he chose to call DSG;-) KenO came armed with a copy of the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha and a very fast tongue and mind - too fast for the rest of us to keep up with at times. His first question related to the arising of the group of primary rupas - I’m not sure he got the answer he was looking for or whether anyone really understood the question (KenO - ‘You know, Howard’s qu’). A.Sujin began testing him throughout the day on his Abhidhamma knowledge. He was pretty wise and well-prepared for this and gave all the right answers;-). His good humour (just like on list), asides and keen interest were key reasons as to why the discussions were so meaty and yet enjoyable and fun too;-). I’m still not sure why he thinks it’s so dangerous to travel in the same car as any of us and would rather hike down Charoen Nakorn Road (long, busy and polluted) or why he’s convinced it’s a waste of time for me to offer any pleasantries such as ‘how’s your tea?’ or welcomes to new members, (KenO: “if it’s not dhamma it’s akusala”), but then as I say, we were all a bit slow for him and I’m sure he would have liked to fast forward us all or to zap as he can do on list.‘That’s a waste of time’ - zap!. Christine arrived with a bag of texts as well, including B.Bodhi’s AN anthology and of course she managed to bring Angulimala, Vessantara and a few of her favourites (!) into various discussions too. She’s becoming quite one of the ‘oldies’ and was even heard giving and finding translations for Pali terms during discussions ;-) We met at the airport yesterday and had a final few words on victims at work and in the suttas - no conclusions but I think we all learnt more about our accumulations. Certainly (thanks KenO again), I learnt more about my frivolous ones;-) ...and Jon was armed with the Visuddhimagga, Betty with the Nyantiloka dictionary (most useful at these discussions), Nina and I with plenty of Abhidhamma qus from DSG, ready for any lulls or pauses. We thanked Larry, Howard, RobM and others for many of these further points and considerations. I know Nina will be writing more, so I can unpack now;-). Indeed, Nina was waiting for us on our arrival to refine and check my book of qus, Azita;-) As Jon said, our old friend Vince arrived with all the meditation and samatha questions and honestly, at times, K.Sujin couldn’t get a word in either. It was never boring and the lunches and brunch together were most enjoyable too..... dhamma and catch-up (Ok, KenO - dhamma and lobha). Many thanks to all who joined us in Bkk and especially to Betty and Sukin for coordinating us all so well while we were there. Even greater thanks to all those who have been contributing here in our absence in such good form and humour and thereby enabling us to really take a good break knowing we were leaving the list in your good finger-tips. With metta, Sarah ====== *Paccaya Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-020.html ""When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present." ============================ 30579 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:57pm Subject: The mind of a person in a coma F/W message from a new friend, Hasituppada. ============================================ Dear Dhamma friends, When a person is in deep sleep,his sense faculties are temporarily in abeyance. The mind goes into the first thought moment of present life - bhavanga, which is the jeevitindriya-the life maintaining consciousness. Dreams in such a state may be the activation of sanna cetasika (?) Besides deep sleep, there are two states in which similar situations may exist (i) a person who has fainted and (ii) a person in a coma. In these states how does the mind function, maintaining the life continuum. Is there relevant reference in the Abhidhamma or Suttas ? A person who comes out of a coma remembers their "experiences" in that state. Some faculties at least may still function, like hearing, smelling, feelings, and the thoughts, though the mind is unable to stimulate the body to react. The biological processes continue to function as the consciousness is present. So it may be a constant falling into and coming out of the bhavanga during the period of the coma, with citta-cetasika arising and falling away from time to time as the minds fluctuate between one state (bhavanga) and the other(citta) Could you please explain with reference to relevant passages in Dhamma, if any. I also invite other Dhamma friends to give their points view. With metta Hasituppada 30580 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:01am Subject: Names of suttas > F/W 2nd message from a new friend, Hasituppada. > ============================================ Dear Friend, I have noticed that in the posts of this group when there is a reference to a Sutta, the name of the Sutta is not given. Is it because the name is a concept ! It is a pity because it is very easy to get at the sutta in any Buddhis website if the name od the Sutta is given. Every Sutta has a name. with metta, Hasituppada 30581 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:28am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hello Michael, Jon and all, Vis. 18 goes on to say: "'Restraint by knowledge' is this: "The currents in the world that flow, Ajita," said the Blessed One, '"Are stemmed by means of mindfulness; '"Restraint of currents I proclaim, '"By understanding they are damned"' (Sn. 1035) and use of requisites is here combined with this. But what is called 'restraint by patience' is that given in the way beginning 'He is one who bears cold and heat' (M.i,10). And what is called 'restraint by energy' is that given in the way beginning 'He does not endure a thought of sense-desires 'when it arises' (M.i,11); purification of livelihood is here combined with this. So this five-fold restraint, and the abstinence, in clansmen who dread evil, from any chance of transgression met with, should all be understood to be 'virtue as restraint'". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello All. > > Restraint by mindfulness and patience seem quite obvious but what about restraint by knowledge and by energy? Any ideas how that works? > > Metta > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_ (§_1.2.) > > > Victor, Christine and Jack (and Howard and Ken O in an earlier > thread) > > --- yu_zhonghao > wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard > > the sense doors'? > > I understand 'guarding the sense doors' to be a reference to > mindfulness, in that it is a function of mindfulness that the sense > doors are guarded. If no mindfulness, the sense doors are not > guarded. > > Vism I, 18 > 18. Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in > five ways: restraint by the Rules of the Community (Patimokkha), > *restraint by mindfulness*, restraint by knowledge, restraint by > patience, and restraint by energy. > Herein, ... 'restraint by mindfulness' is this: 'He guards the eye > 'faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty' (D.I,70). > > Jon > > > Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, > > one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or > > details > > by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty > > of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed > > or distress might assail him. > > > 30582 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:31am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) M, J, and all, That should be '"By understanding they are dammed"' not 'damned'. :-) metta, C --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 30583 From: Eznir Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger- Directing Dear Sarah & Friends, S:I just read the full sutta. (PTS `A grain of salt' and it's a really excellent one. Do you have a link for others to read in full? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-099.html S: In another thread on nama and rupa, I think you suggested that the difference between these `is not in the things in itself....It is our mental fabrications that construct various stories about the things we cognize'. I think I partly agree and partly disagree, if I understand correctly. S: I agree that `intention is action', intention (cetana cetasika) is also conditioned. Who or what directs this intention? E: How is it that intentions could be directed is the question. Lord Buddha in the Khajjaniya Sutta(Chewed Up) in SN-XXII.79 says: And what, monks, do you say are determinations(sankhára)? 'They determine the determined': that, monks, is why they are called 'determinations'. And what is the determined that they determine? Matter as matter is the determined that they determine, Feeling as feeling is the determined that they determine, Perception as perception is the determined that they determine, Determinations as determinations are the determined that they determine, Consciousness as consciousness is the determined that they determine. 'They determine the determined': that indeed, monks, is why they are called 'determinations'. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-079.html) Expounded here are the function of Sankhára, how the 5-holding- aggregates, of which we are burdened with, are determined. This is to say a thing is what it is determined for. A polluted mind(citta/consciousness) is a polluted mind, that's it and think no further. And what makes a mind polluted? The contents (cetasikas/sankharas) of the mind, that's it and think no further. These are observable when one performs the cittánupassaná and dhammánupassaná. How does one purify the mind? Fill it up with Wholesome/skillful(kusala) states. How? By intending bodily, verbally and mentally. What does one intend? That which is wholesome(37- enlightenment factors) and conducive to Nibbana. Selection process? Wise attention. So, given here, in brief, is the process by which this `directing the mind' towards Nibbana is achieved. It's easier said than done though!! Read Dvedavitakka Sutta MN-19 to see how Lord Buddha directed his mind to sort two types of thoughts, the kusala and akusala. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm metta eznir 30584 From: Eznir Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is Dhamma subjective? Dear Howard & Friends, I certainly agree with the brief account of the Dhamma you have written, the reality of the experience of the 5-holding-agregates in particular. For there are those who think that these aggregates too are an illusion. The subject/object duality nature of things is certainly an illusion. Sometimes one finds profound teachings of the Dhamma being discussed and debated over to the very detail in abstraction. Even the writings of learned Teachers and commentaries are subjected to doubt and controversy. Then there are those who read Dhamma books of all sorts and find difficulty in comprehending all what is written there. And finally their discussion taper off to a tangent leaving the Dhamma aside. When what really matters is the Dhukka that is being created in oneself! The Dhamma is closer home in these 5-holding-aggregates. This is where Dhamma is subjective, `I am suffering'. And when one comprehends this, this statement turns to `This is suffering'. But still the aroma of `I am' have not left the one who suffers. Only an Arahat does not suffer. Note the imperative ".. he does not conceive …….." in case of the Arahat. The Arahant "A monk who is a Worthy One, ---- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth,--------" [MN-01] The Trainee "A monk who is a trainee -- yearning for the unexcelled relief from bondage, his aspirations as yet unfulfilled -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, let him not conceive things about earth, ------- " [MN-01] But those in training, `…… let him not conceive….", which implies he still does conceive. But what does he conceive? The Dhamma that is wholesome. These Dhammas too are sankharic constructions. But what do they construct? The noble 8-fold path, the path to all cessation of constructions. And how does one construct this path? Through intentions. Because intending is what one normally does every moment of the day. How does he intend? Through body, speech and mind; the very same 5-holding- aggregates that he is burdened with. Now that he knows "this"(5- holding-aggregates) is suffering, he uses the very same aggregates to get out of. "Bhikkus, I shall show you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping". [MN-22] The one who has crossed over is the Arahat. The one who is on the raft crossing over are the Trainees. The one who is beside the bank thinking of crossing over are the wordlings(uninstructed commoners). The river being crossed is the flood of defilements. The raft is the Dhamma, principally the 37 enlightenment factors (bhojjanga dhamma). Metta eznir 30585 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: Names of suttas Hello Hasituppada :-) , and all, Thank you for your posts, as usual they are stimuli for much reflection. Welcome to DhammaStudyGroup! :-) I have really enjoyed and learned from your discussions elsewhere and look forward, hopefully, to your continuing contributions to dsg. My understanding is that suttas don't have any fixed names, and that different translators give them different titles. e.g. Thanissaro Bhikkhu calls Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.28 the Aditta-pariyaya Sutta 'The Fire Sermon' - while Bhikkhu Bodhi calls the same sutta 'Burning' in his wonderful 'The Connected Discourses of the Buddha' A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaaya. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > > F/W 2nd message from a new friend, Hasituppada. > > ============================================ > > Dear Friend, > > I have noticed that in the posts of this group when there is a > reference to a Sutta, the name of the Sutta is not given. Is it > because the name is a concept ! > > It is a pity because it is very easy to get at the sutta in any > Buddhis website if the name od the Sutta is given. Every Sutta has a > name. > > with metta, > Hasituppada 30586 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Philip, and all, I can well understand your friend's reactions. One of my first comments on this list was about the use of words like 'defilements' - I thought the language was too harsh, almost impolite. Like your friends, I thought it seemed to show self-loathing - or low self esteem. :-) Notice all the selves? Slowly, I learn about anatta, and, much more slowly, understanding incrementally grows. I was also asked about my signature quote on another list, and this is the reply I gave there. I think one can never over emphasise the fragility of life, and there is a need to point out that the Buddha taught the dangers of rebirth. That very very few are reborn in human form, or in the dispensation of a buddha when the teachings are available. The work needs to be done Now. The quote I add after my signature "The trouble is that you think you have time" is part of my daily reminder to myself about my ever approaching death. Especially, to try to have a sense that it could be at any moment. People assume that they'll live to the extreme of old age for their nationality - usually they think it will be in their 80's, 90's or older. We all know intellectually that we will die one day - but we always push it into the future. When I have contact with patients who have been told they have a terminal illness, whether they are 20 years old or 92 years old they always say things like - "I know I have to die one day, but I didn't think it would be for ( insert number of years). Or they say, "I know I have to die one day, but I need to do (insert task) first." My signature quote is a short paraphrase of the message in suttas below - I think I read it in a book by Jack Kornfield once. From 'The Archer' SN XX.6 "Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-006.html From 'The Simile of the Mountains' SN III.25 "Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. >>snip<< So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-025.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Christine, and all. <<>> > The folks at the other forum I belonged to seemed to think of a > concern about defilements as a kind of self-loathing. They > misunderstood the term. In The book on the Paramis, Nina writes "when > we develop the perfections we should not expect any gain for > ourselves, our goal should be eradication of defilements. If this is > not our goal dana, sila and the other wholesome qualities are not > perfections leading to enlightenment." I find this this echoes what > Ajaan Chah said, that trying to reach purity of mind without working > on the defilements is like trying to dye a grimy rag, or words to > that effect. > I am curious to know what answers my reading and discussion at this > group will bring to this question : How and in what ways does > loosening the roots of the hindrances and defilements (I assume I > will not be able to remove them completely in this lifetime) allow > wholesome qualities to shine through me in my daily life in the > world? Of course the most important answers will come through my > practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers > which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. > > >The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > I like this line. May I ask the source? > Metta, > Philip 30587 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Dear Ajhan: I am sorry to hear about your infection. I hope the operation goes well. May you recover and get back to your practice soon. Metta Manu Wadhwani ----- Original Message ----- > Dear Suan, I was at the National > Capital Private Hospital. Tonight at 6.30 I am going to see my surgeon to fix the next operation to remove the kidney stones. Metta Ajhan Jose 30588 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Hello Manu :-) Lovely to see you 'in print'! I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures of us all in Bangkok last month - you are in photo 23 between Ven Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose) and Ivan - all looking very serious and listening intently ... :-) http://tinyurl.com/4wyq metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Ajhan: > > I am sorry to hear about your infection. I hope the operation goes well. > May you recover and get back to your practice soon. > > Metta > Manu Wadhwani 30589 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital/Typo Ooops! make that photo 20 of 23. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Manu :-) > > Lovely to see you 'in print'! > I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures > of us all in Bangkok last month - you are in photo 23 between Ven > Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose) and Ivan - all looking very serious and > listening intently ... :-) > http://tinyurl.com/4wyq > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30590 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Hi Manu (& Christine), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Manu :-) > > Lovely to see you 'in print'! > I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures > of us all in Bangkok last month ..... Yes, I'm glad to see you in print too! Why not share a few of your impressions from that same day of discussion and lunch in Bangkok??? We'd all be glad to hear. I should have mentioned in my other letter (I was just in the door and not even unpacked when I wrote it by way of excuses;-)), that Manu came down from Laos with exellent listening skills and the occasional question too. At lunch, Manu, you were asking about the kinds of dukkha and I forget what else. You may like to read more detailed posts on dukkha under that heading in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts You mentioned that every week you translate Abhidhamma talks from Lao to English at a temple in Vientiane, Laos. Can you tell us more about these and the topics being discussed? What's the name of the bhikkhu who gives the talks? Finally, you're now off the hook photo-wise, but like James, I'd like to encourage any newcomers and other shy oldcomers to add a photo to the member album as an act of dana for us all here: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst Metta, Sarah ======= 30591 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:27am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O and all, Ken, thank you for your reply and providing sutta passages. We can further investigate these passages with the eight principles/criteria of recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. So some questions for that endeavor are that: With respect to the eight principles/criteria, what do you think are the qualities present in these sutta passages such that one may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction'? In particular, for that one may know in these sutta passages , by which criteria may one definitely hold thus? Metta, Victor PS. Thank you for your suggestion. I do have these books. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > There is no doubt that there are benefits of Vinaya. Vinaya is only > the start of the practise take, a look at Ganakamoggallana Sutta, > Vinaya is equates to morality, then after there are other gradual > training like sense control etc....(which are all part and parcel of > 8NP) Hence to me vinaya is a leading tool but not a total tool by > itself > > I think we must not forget that mental portion because Buddha > describe mental more powerful than physical actions. See Upali Sutta > MN 56 Let me quote you this sutta portion > > < bodily rod is the most reprehensible for the performance of evil > action, for the perpetration of evil action, and not so much of the > verbal rod and mental rod. > > What do you household? Is this town of Nalanda sucessful and > prosperous, is it populus and crowded with people? > > Yes Venerable sir, it is. > > What do you think, householder? Suppose a man came here brandishing > a sword and spoke thus:"In one moment, in one instant, I will make > all the living things in this town of Nalanda into one mass of flesh, > into one heap of flesh. What do you think householder would that man > be able to do that? > > Venerable Sir, ten, twenty, thirty, forty or even fifty men would not > be able to make all the living beings in this town into one mass of > flesh, into one heap of flesh in one moment or instant, so what does > a single trivial man count for? > > What do you think, householder? Suppose some recluse or brahim came > here possessed of supernormal power and attained to mastery of the > mind and he spoke thus: "I will reduce this town of Nalanda to ashes > with one mental act of hate." What do you think householder, would > such a recluse or brahim be able to do that? > > Venerable sir, such a recluse or brahim posessed of supernormal power > and attained to mastery of mind would able to reduce ten, twenty, > thirty, forty or even fifty Nalandas to ashes with one mental act of > hate, so what does a single trivial Nalanda count for."> The sutta > carries on ... > > When it is said keeping control of the faculties, it is not just > Vinaya. I think Vinaya only covers the way Monks look at people, I > do not know whether it includes hearing and smelling faculties. > Neverthesless, let take a look at this sutta MN 451, Kandaraka Sutta > > "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its sign and > features. Since if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil > unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he > practise the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he > undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty.....hearing, smelling, > flavouring and congnizing of a mind object." > > So we can see these are all mostly mental portion and not physical. > > > Ken O > > P.S> I think it will be good if you get the MN and SN suttas > translated by Bodhi. There are more sutta for you to look and > investigate than those in accesstoinsight suttas. 30592 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Dear Friend, Your questions are very interesting. Do you have a special reason for this interest? S:Just a few comments for a start from my very limited understanding in these areas. ...... H: > When a person is in deep sleep,his sense faculties are temporarily > in abeyance. .... S: Agreed. ..... H: >The mind goes into the first thought moment of present > life - bhavanga, which is the jeevitindriya-the life maintaining > consciousness. ..... S:I’d put it a little differently. There are continuous bhavanga cittas (life continuum consciousness) at these times. Jivitindriya cetasika (life faculty mental factor) accompanies these and all other cittas. ..... H:>Dreams in such a state may be the activation of > sanna cetasika (?) ...... S:Dreams occur during lighter sleep when there are series of mind-door cittas (consciousness) interrupting the bhavanga cittas. Sanna (perception/marking) is another universal cetasika like jivitindriya which arises with every citta, including the bhavangas and all sense door and mind door cittas. During dreaming, it ‘marks’ the concepts experienced through the mind. ..... H:> Besides deep sleep, there are two states in which similar > situations may exist (i) a person who has fainted and (ii) a person > in a coma. In these states how does the mind function, > maintaining the life continuum. ..... S:Life faculty (jivitindriya) continues to maintain the life of the flow of cittas and cetasikas it accompanies, whether they be bhavangas (life continuum) or mind door consciousness cittas. “It watches over these states (the accompanying dhammas) only in the moment of (their and its) existence, as water over lotuses etc. (Atthasalini, part 1V, ch 1). Jivita.m = life, indriya = controlling faculty. In a coma, as you suggest, it’s like a deep sleep with (I imagine) long periods of succeeding bhavangas. However, we know that there is also mind door and sense door activity in many cases, whether or not it can be percieved at all by other people. This is why there can be memories afterwards. Fainting, too, I think. When I was young, I used to faint a lot, but often there were waves of some kind of consciousness, even though those around would have no idea. So, it’s not the same as deep sleep (no sense door or mind door activity) or dreaming (only mind door activity). In these cases, there may be some sense door as well as mind door activity interspersing the deep sleep like condition. ..... H: Is there relevant reference in the > Abhidhamma or Suttas ? ..... S:I’d recommend Nina’s books, ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ and ‘Cetasikas’ for a start to understand more about bhavanga cittas and these cetasikas. Also see ‘dreams’, ‘bhavanga’ in UP. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... H: > A person who comes out of a coma remembers their "experiences" in > that state. Some faculties at least may still function, like > hearing, smelling, feelings, and the thoughts, though the mind is > unable to stimulate the body to react. The biological processes > continue to function as the consciousness is present. ..... S:Exactly so. Lots of variation in this regard, I think. ..... H: >So it may be > a constant falling into and coming out of the bhavanga during the > period of the coma, with citta-cetasika arising and falling away > from time to time as the minds fluctuate between one state > (bhavanga) and the other(citta) .... S: Almost right, I think. Remember that bhavangas are cittas too and it’s not that anything falls into or out of. Just a series of cittas accompanied by cetasikas, but in this case, I expect there may usually be long periods of bhavanga cittas without interruption, depending on the case. ..... H:> Could you please explain with reference to relevant passages in > Dhamma, if any. I also invite other Dhamma friends to give their > points view. > > With metta > Hasituppada .... S: I can’t think of any references to comas, but in a way, it’s just like now with succeeding cittas accompanied by mental factors like jivitindriya and sanna which perform their tasks very briefly and then fall away. These again are conditioned dhammas, not under anyone’s will, arising and falling away all the time and quite unpredictable. In another thread, we're looking at the Visuddhimagga on bodily intimation. We can see in the case of someone coming out of a coma or faint, there may be the intention to make a gesture, but no supporting conditions for the intimation to take place. Conditions are very complicated. I’ll also be glad to hear other views or references. This is just a 'first stab' at your questions. Meanwhile, please enjoy the posts on DSG and may I encourage you to post directly in future - we’re a friendly crowd and I don't usually offer a forwarding service;-) Please introduce yourself a little too. Metta, Sarah ===== 30593 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Victor & Ken O --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > Thank you for your detail answer. From passage § 1.5., what the > woman did in front of Ven. Anuruddha obviously leads to passion, > not dispassion. One thing I see as the Vinaya that leads to > dispassion, > as Ven. Anuruddha demonstrated, is 'keeping control of his > faculties, didn't as much as glance at her or say even a word.' I'm wondering if this the same Ven Anuruddha as the famous arahant (and cousin of the Buddha). If so, the control over the faculties would be explained by the fact that all tendency to akusala had been eradicated. Jon 30594 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack James & Jack Another sutta reference to add to James' useful one below is this one from AN IV, 170 (trans NDB 83, Bh Bodhi). The speaker is Ven Ananda. Jon 'Ways to Arahantship' "Friends, whatever monks or nuns declare before me that they have attained the final knowledge of arahantship, all these do so in one of four ways. What four? "Here friends, a monk develops insight preceded by tranquillity.[65] While he thus develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.[66] "Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquillity preceded by insight.[67] While he thus develops … "Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquillity and insight joined in pairs. While he thus develops … "Or again, friends, a monk's mind is seized by agitation caused by higher states of mind. But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied, composed, unified and concentrated; then the path arises in him. . He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated. Footnotes: 66. "The path" (magga) is the first supramundane path, that of stream-entry. … 67. AA [Commentary to AN]: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight produces concentration (samaadhi)." AT: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jack, ... > The `split' into vipassana meditation and jhana meditation is in > the suttas. See the Samadhi Sutta, which starts with: > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > four? > There is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is > the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads > to > the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness > & > alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course > > it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there > are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both > concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to > meditation. > > Metta, James 30595 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor > > With respect to the eight principles/criteria, what do you think > are the qualities present in these sutta passages such that one may > definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is > the Teacher's instruction'? In particular, for that one may know > in these sutta passages , by which criteria may one definitely hold > thus? k: It is not easy at times to say this is vinaya or this is Teacher instructions because Vinaya is also Teacher instruction. Nevertheless let deal specifically with 1.4 and 1.5. <<'What do you assume of any essence, here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, this body destined to break up? What do you see when you look at me, you who are out of your mind?'>> <> IMHO - These two part indicate the teacher instruction in dispassion with the body. The body is destined to die and decay. We can comtemplating cemetary, consider and reflecting that body is make up of the four elements or comtemplate as body parts. All these are found in satipatthana sutta. As for 1.5 - the significant instructions will be <> There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. Basically I think in order to keep control, one must be mindful of our mental objects and mind. Ken O 30596 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/24/04 10:11:15 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to meditation. James, You might be right. Have you read the Thanissaro article to which I referred? I think there is a question about the translation of different words in the suttas that are translated as jhanas. Robert K. seems to agree that, at least in the instance he examined, the translation should be meditation not jhana. Try substituting the word "meditation" for "concentration" in your quote below, I think the Ananapanasati Sutta pulls together a lot of different meditational techniques (such as 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, concentration and vipassana) found in other suttas into one unified meditational teaching. Certain steps in that sutta emphase different aspects. Some gravitate toward jhana work. The last four are pure vipassana. But, they are all part of one mental development teaching. I'm not sure we are not saying the same thing but using slightly different words. jack "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html 30597 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: James: > I think what you describe here is quite reasonable. Actually though, > I would not separate you from others because really we are all > beginners. We begin again each minute/second/nano-second. Just as > one cannot really see the passing landscape from a speeding vehicle, > one cannot really see namas and rupas until there is a stopping, > looking, and considering. However, I believe you are going to find > that Nina does not agree with this outlook, even for the `beginner'. > She emphases that ANY effort to recognize namas and rupas, > any `stopping' of superfluous activities to do this, is a > reinforcement of the false belief in `self'. Think what you will > about this but I believe that such a view makes Buddhism absolutely > pointless. If nothing is done is purposefully done, nothing will > happen. Hello James, and all. P: It's interesting. At this point I cannot fathom how the realites laid out in the Abhidhamma that I am now barely managing to wrap my head around will come to be experienced directly, but I will study and practice in that direction. I will, however, be continuing my Brahma-Viharas work, which I think is important and interesting, and certianly very purposeful. We'll see what happens. Something tells me that there will be a gradual awakening from conceptual (samutti) truth to paramattha but I will be playing on both courts for a good while, I'm sure. > I am glad that you are enamored with the works of Nina because I > believe there is very valuable information to be found there. > However, I would also like to suggest that you read the works of > other writers whose perspectives on the Abhidhamma don't contain the > same `non-action' outlook as Nina posits. Here are some links for > you to consider: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm > http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm P:Thank you. I will check them out. Sorry, I don't know how to upload photos as requested, but will figure it out one of these years! :) Everybody in the album looks so kind. Metta, Philip 30598 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:01am Subject: Testing In-Box Delivery Time (No Content) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30599 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Christine, and all. Thank you for your explaining your signature line. Sloth and Torpor is one of my dominant Hindrances- well, heck, they're all dominant come to think of it - so it appeals to me. I like these lines from the Dhammapada (235): "You are now like a yellowed leaf. Already Yama's minions stand near: You stand at the door to departure But have yet to provide for the journey." In our case, I guess we want to unpack *before* departing in order to provide for the journey :) Oh, thanks again for the link on the defilements. It made things clearer for me. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, and all, > > I can well understand your friend's reactions. One of my first > comments on this list was about the use of words like 'defilements' - > I thought the language was too harsh, almost impolite. > Like your friends, I thought it seemed to show self-loathing - or low > self esteem. :-) Notice all the selves? > Slowly, I learn about anatta, and, much more slowly, understanding > incrementally grows. > > I was also asked about my signature quote on another list, and this > is the reply I gave there. > > I think one can never over emphasise the fragility of life, and there > is a need to point out that the Buddha taught the dangers of rebirth. > That very very few are reborn in human form, or in the dispensation > of a buddha when the teachings are available. The work needs to be > done Now. > > The quote I add after my signature "The trouble is that you think you > have time" is part of my daily reminder to myself about my ever > approaching death. Especially, to try to have a sense that it could > be at any moment. People assume that they'll live to the extreme of > old age for their nationality - usually they think it will be in > their 80's, 90's or older. We all know intellectually that we will > die one day - but we always push it into the future. When I have > contact with patients who have been told they have a terminal > illness, whether they are 20 years old or 92 years old they always > say things like - "I know I have to die one day, but I didn't think > it would be for ( insert number of years). Or they say, "I know I > have to die one day, but I need to do (insert task) first." My > signature quote is a short paraphrase of the message in suttas below - > I think I read it in a book by Jack Kornfield once. > > From 'The Archer' SN XX.6 > "Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun > & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun > & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should > train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should > train yourselves." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-006.html > > From 'The Simile of the Mountains' SN III.25 > "Like massive boulders, > mountains pressing against the sky, > moving in from all sides, > crushing the four directions, > so aging and death > come rolling over living beings: > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > They spare nothing. > They trample everything. > >>snip<< > So a wise person, > seeing his own good, > steadfast, secures confidence > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-025.html > > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:26am Subject: Bodily intimation, note 27, no 3. Bodily Intimation, Tiika: Note 27, no 3. Text: 'Since it has been said that the apprehension of intimation is next to the apprehension of the appearance of motion, how then, is the air element itself as the maker of the movement accompanied by the alteration consisting in the intimation? It is not like that. It is the air elements given rise to by the first impulsion, etc., and which are unable to cause movement in that way and perform only the stiffening and upholding, that should be taken as only accompanied by the alteration belonging to intimation. For it is the alteration coexistent with the intention that is the intimation, because of giving rise to alteration in whatever direction it wishes to cause the occurrence of moving forward and so on. Taking it in this way, it is perfectly logical to say that the origination of intimation belongs to mind-door adverting. N: Cittas in a mind-door process that wish to display a meaning condition the rupa that is bodily intimation. Text: Since the intention possessed of the aforesaid alteration is intimated through the apprehension of that alteration, it is said that "Its function is to display intention". The air element being the cause of the motion of the body intimation, is figuratively said, as a state of alteration, to be "manifested as the cause of bodily motion". "Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element" is said since the air element's excessive function is the cause of intimating intention by movement of the body' (Pm. 450-52). Cf. DhsA. 83f. N: excessive function of the air-element: to recap the beginning of this note: The excess of the element of wind or motion does not mean: there is more of it in that group, but is means: it plays its specific part in being capable of causing gestures etc. expressing a meaning. Thus the excess is not quantitative. The citta that conditions intimation arises in a mind-door process, and the citta that apprehands that intimation also arises in a mind-door process. Quote from the Expositor (p. 111, 112): **** Conclusion: The rupa of bodily intimation is only an as we read. It is rupa, it does not know anything. But when cittas arise that wish to display intention, this rupa, a certain, unique change in the great elements, is the means to communicate an intention. Before we realize it we make gestures already or shake our heads, point with our fingers. There are only nama and rupa arising because of their own conditions, there is no person who owns nama and rupa. Nina. P.S. Next I'll send two posts on verbal intimation (taken from my Rupas). 30601 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/25/04 1:25:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Philip, > op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > >I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > >we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > >and nama in the moment. > N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case > there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something > constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or > not, and this is conditioned by listening. ======================== I agree, Nina, that this is conditioned by listening. But is that *all* that conditions this? (It's about all that I hear on this list! ;-) Oh, and one more thing: As regards listening, why would there not be a "self" who wants to do that constructive thing as well? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30602 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: Have you read the Thanissaro article to which I referred? James: Yes, I did. I read it before I sent the last post. I didn't want to comment too much because there are many, many things I don't agree with in that article. Actually, I did a complete double take when I read it! I was incredulous that Thanissaro had even written it. Judging from the great body of his other works, I will consider it just a fluke. Maybe it was simply written on a bad day. ;-) I'm sorry to be so vague but I don't feel compelled to point out the weaknesses I see in that article in such a public setting. However, if you think it may be of benefit to you and others, ask me again and I may (what is the Buddhist standard? Ask three times? ;-)) Well, these are modern times, twice will suffice. ;-) Jack: I think there is a question about the translation of different words in the suttas that are translated as jhanas. Robert K. seems to agree that, at least in the instance he examined, the translation should be meditation not jhana. James: That is probably right. It has been my observation with the suttas that whenever the Buddha speaks about jhana he doesn't use it as just a simple, one word description. He will go through the ENTIRE description for all four jhanas and their fruits whenever he spoke about jhana. Even when he spoke to householders about jhana, even though they probably had little idea of what he was describing, he would still go through the entire description. Some may argue that this is simply formulaic for the suttas and may not be the true way the Buddha spoke of the jhanas, but I am not so sure. It seems to be very consistent, and he would sometimes speak of other teachings in brief. I think it is significant and telling that the Buddha never spoke of the jhanas in brief. It demonstrates how valuable they are. Have you come across any instances where he spoke of jhanas in brief? Jack: I think the Ananapanasati Sutta pulls together a lot of different meditational techniques (such as 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, concentration and vipassana) found in other suttas into one unified meditational teaching. Certain steps in that sutta emphase different aspects. Some gravitate toward jhana work. The last four are pure vipassana. But, they are all part of one mental development teaching. James: Yes, I completely agree. The Anapanasati Sutta does describe how the breath can be used for fulfillment of the entire path. Personally, I often repeat this slogan to myself throughout the day to remind myself: "The Breath is my Religion". However, different people have different accumulations and the breath doesn't work for everyone at every stage in their development. Monks were given different meditation subjects dependent on their needs. It isn't a simple, cut-and-dry issue. Jack: I'm not sure we are not saying the same thing but using slightly different words. James: Yes, of course; I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I didn't want to try and `prove you wrong' or something—I am so weary of that! ;-). I just wanted to clarify for the sake of those who might be confused about these issues. After spending so many years of practice and study in these matters, as you and I have, it is easy to get sloppy in descriptions. Though you and I might know what we mean when we speak of things in brief, not everyone else does. I just wanted to clarify a bit. Glad you didn't mind. ;-) Metta, James 30603 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Nina, Thank you for your appreciation. The objective of this study is to know and apply these eight principles/criteria in recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study in which we can examine the sutta passages for recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction using these eight principles/criteria. If you like, you may also want bring up some doctrine in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and examine it with the these eight principles for recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. That would offer some examples in applying these eight principles. Thank you for your interest. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > op 24-02-2004 15:53 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I think at the > > moment the topic is on recognizing whether something is the Dhamma, > > the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The Buddha taught > > Mahapajapati Gotami that: > > > > > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > > > > to passion, not to dispassion;(snipped) > You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' > > > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: etc. > N: Yes, quite right. Let us combine Sarah's quotes from the Intro to the > Vinaya and what you quote here. I see it this way: the Buddha taught the > Three Baskets and stressed that we should compare text with text, examine > the truth. And the practice should be in agreement with the truth. like in > the Kesaputta sutta (called Kalama) we should verify the practice with all > he taught in the Three Baskets. We can verify:what leads to more attachment, > what leads to detachment. Whatever we practise should lead to detachment. > This is the goal. We can come to the conclusion: understanding realities > appearing at this moment is in accordance with what we read before in the > texts. I just heard on tape A. Sujin saying: teachings and there is less attachment to the self you think of the others > more than of yourself. Of helping others in deed and speech at any time.> > This seems simple and very general, but it means: performing kusala not for > one's own sake, not with an idea of my kusala. > As Sarah quoted: the Abhidhamma helps us to see that there is no self. We > learn to see citta, cetasika and rupa as very impersonal, impersonal > elements arising because of conditions. We learn to see the momentariness of > dhammas when we study processes of cittas. Details help. > I appreciate the way you lead this discussion, Victor. It helps me to > consider more. > Nina. 30604 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, Philip: Sorry, I don't know how to upload photos as requested, but will figure it out one of these years! :) Everybody in the album looks so kind. James: Since you found the album and how to view the pictures the rest is easy: You should see a link at the top of the album thumbnails page called "Add Photo". Click this and it will open a new widow which will have several places where you can navigate to the photo on your computer and add a text caption for each photo. (You could upload six photos at a time but probably just one or two would be sufficient ;-). When you finish with that process, click the "Upload" button at the bottom and your work is done. Voila! Now, isn't that simple? However, if it is still too difficult: since you are in Japan, I am sure that there are computer geeks aplenty around who could help you! ;-)) Metta, James 30605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Chris, Victor and All Thanks for posting the text relating to restraint by knowledge and restraint by energy. Meanwhile, here is something further on restraint of sense faculties. In the section dealing with the different ways that virtue can be classified, there is a fourfold classification as 'Patimokkha [monks' rules] restraint, of restraint of sense faculties, of purification of livelihood, and that concerning requisites', and on 'restraint of sense faculties' there is this passage from MN 27 (Simile of the Elephant's Footprint (Shorter)): <> This is similar to the DN passage being discussed. I have pasted below the Visuddhi-Magga explanation on this passage. Of particular interest I think are the following: 'He enters upon the way of its restraint': [the meaning is] he enters upon the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. It is the same one of whom it is said 'he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'. and: But when virtue, etc., [J: i.e., virtue, mindfulness, etc, the opposites of unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness] has arisen in it, then the door too is guarded I think this confirms that guarding the sense doors is one of the functions performed by mindfulness whenever it arises. Jon Vism I, 42 - 59 ****************************** 42. 17. In the fourth tetrad: (a) ...is 'virtue of Patimokkha restraint'. (b) That described thus: 'On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him; he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. On hearing a sound ..." (M.i,180), is ' virtue of restraint of the sense faculties'. 56. As to the words 'through which', etc., the meaning is: by reason of which, because of which non-restraint of the eye faculty, 'if he', if that person, 'left the eye faculty unguarded', remained with the eye door unclosed by the door-panel of mindfulness, these states of covetousness, etc., 'might invade', might pursue, might threaten, him. 'He enters upon the way of its restraint': he enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness. It is the same one of whom it is said 'he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'. 57. Herein, ... when a visible datum as object comes into the eye’s focus, ... there is non-restraint if unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness arises at the moment of impulsion. When this happens, it is called ‘non-restraint of the eye faculty’. [22] 58. Why is that? Because when this happens, the door is not guarded ... But when virtue, etc., [J: i.e., virtue, mindfulness, etc, the opposites of unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness] has arisen in it, then the door too is guarded and so also are the [preceding moments in the same sense door process]. Like what? Just as when the city gates are secured, although inside the city the houses, etc., are not secured, yet all property inside the city is well guarded, well protected, since when the city gates are shut there is no ingress for robbers, so too, when virtue, etc., have arisen in impulsion, the door too is guarded and so also are the life-continuum and the consciousness of the cognitive series beginning with adverting. Thus although it actually arises at the moment of impulsion, it is nevertheless called ‘restraint in the eye faculty’. 59. So also as regards the phrases 'on hearing a sound with the ear' and so on. So it is this virtue, which in brief has the characteristic of avoiding apprehension of signs entailing defilement with respect to visible objects, etc., that should be understood as 'virtue of restraint of faculties'. ****************************** --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Michael, Jon and all, > > Vis. 18 goes on to say: > "'Restraint by knowledge' is this: > "The currents in the world that flow, Ajita," said the Blessed One, > '"Are stemmed by means of mindfulness; > '"Restraint of currents I proclaim, > '"By understanding they are damned"' (Sn. 1035) > and use of requisites is here combined with this. But what is > called 'restraint by patience' is that given in the way beginning > 'He > is one who bears cold and heat' (M.i,10). > And what is called 'restraint by energy' is that given in the way > beginning 'He does not endure a thought of sense-desires 'when it > arises' (M.i,11); purification of livelihood is here combined with > this. So this five-fold restraint, and the abstinence, in clansmen > > who dread evil, from any chance of transgression met with, should > all > be understood to be 'virtue as restraint'". 30606 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Thanks Manu Wadhwani wrote:Dear Ajhan: I am sorry to hear about your infection. I hope the operation goes well. May you recover and get back to your practice soon. Metta Manu Wadhwani ----- Original Message ----- > Dear Suan, I was at the National > > Capital Private Hospital. Tonight at 6.30 I am going to see my surgeon to fix the next operation to remove the kidney stones. Metta Ajhan Jose > MY Dear Friends, Thank you to all of you for your good wishes. Today at 12.30 I am being admitted at The National Capital Private Hospital for my kidney operation. I will be back home Friday Night. Metta. Ajahn Jose 30607 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/25/2004 8:51:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S:Dreams occur during lighter sleep when there are series of mind-door > cittas (consciousness) interrupting the bhavanga cittas. Sanna > (perception/marking) is another universal cetasika like jivitindriya which > arises with every citta, including the bhavangas and all sense door and > mind door cittas. During dreaming, it ‘marks’ the concepts > experienced > through the mind. ============================ Sarah, no doubt sa~n~na marks pa~n~natti (like people, trees, and rough-textured walls) arising while dreaming, but I do not believe that only pa~n~natti arise during dreaming. It is my experience that rupas, including sights, sounds, tastes, smells, textures, hardness, warmth, cold, etc, do arise (of course through the mind door) while dreaming, and rupas also arise during jhanas. They are private experiences, but their nature is still rupic. [If you had a materialistic bent, Sarah, I would ask you to think about what you would be experiencing if your nervous system were hooked up to the master computer of "the matrix" while reclining in your pod!] Namas can *only* be experienced through the mind door, but rupas can be experienced through physical sense doors and also through the mind door. In some jhanas, brilliant light is visible. Believe me, it is a dramatic experience that is unquestionably visual, but comes only through the mind door, since the eyes are closed. I suspect that the reason you don't care for the idea of rupas being experienced while dreaming is that you think "real" rupas are "things out there", independent of experience, which, somehow, consciousness "in here" can make contact with. But I think this becomes problematical in the dream state. When dreaming, we DO experince sights and sounds, for example, that are no different from waking sights and sounds, especially in a lucid dream. If these are to be considered pa~n~natti, then there is no basis for not also thinking that the sights and sounds of waking consciousness are also pa~n~natti, which leaves nothing as "actual"! With dreamy metta, Howard 30608 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard IMHO Pannatti was used in the sense that these rupic experience are just pure memories and not actual occurences. In the suttas, there is always the mentioned of eye and form then eye conscioness arise. There is no form or eye in dreaming, so any visible rupa that experience is caused by memory conditioned by latency. When you mention of the light in jhanas, that is not rupa, which is likely purification of the mind, esulting a whitness being experience (is a mind door) hence not to be confused with the visible object experience through the sense door. Ken O 30609 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/25/04 9:27:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > IMHO Pannatti was used in the sense that these rupic experience are > just pure memories and not actual occurences. In the suttas, there > is always the mentioned of eye and form then eye conscioness arise. > There is no form or eye in dreaming, so any visible rupa that > experience is caused by memory conditioned by latency. > > When you mention of the light in jhanas, that is not rupa, which is > likely purification of the mind, esulting a whitness being experience > (is a mind door) hence not to be confused with the visible object > experience through the sense door. > > > Ken O > > ========================== There's no question that the content of dreams is the result of considerable mental processing, specifically sankharic processing that works upon stored, subliminal memories. I certainly agree with that. But the resulting experiences are not of the form of memories or concepts. The dream experiences of sights, sounds, tastes, and textures are of just the same sort as when awake, and are novel creations, not just rehashes. The end products of the mental processing are mind-produced rupas. (Isn't mind-produced rupa a category of rupa according to Abhidhamma?) The same sort of distinctions made between namas, rupas, and pa~n~natti that pertain to waking states also pertain to dream states. The main experiential difference between dream states and waking states is that waking states are more stable and predictable, and they are often intersubjective, whereas dream states are (almost always) private. BTW, the jhanic light I experienced once was not a whiteness - it was, as I experienced it, a brilliant, golden luminescence that extended throughout an infinite spatial panorama, and during the experiencing of it there also was a transporting bliss that is incomparable to any I ever experienced before or since. Thus there was emotive content (nama) and visual content (rupa). Both of these were directly experienced, and neither was pa~n~natti. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30610 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Nina, and all. I kicked myself last evening for having forgotten to thank Nina for taking the time to respond to my post. And I'd like to thank you all for the welcome you have given this beginner. (I insist on my right to use that word!;) There is no coddling here, but there is no patronizing either. I feel so deeply grateful for having come across this group. I am now digging into the useful posts file, trying to find answers about how I can harmonize my traditional application of Right Effort with the teaching of the Abhidhamma. I'll now return to lurking mode for a month (until April 1) to do the reading I need to do. It might seem odd to make such a declaration, but I know that I have trouble controling my hunger for sending posts to discussion groups, and there is so much reading I need to do. If I declare a month of abstinence from posting, I will be too embrassed to break it. It's quite comical being me! I will be following your discussions with keen interest. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Philip, > op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > > we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > > and nama in the moment. > N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case > there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something > constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or > not, and this is conditioned by listening. There is no need to stop what one > is doing. We should not expect direct awareness to arise at different > moments of the day, it will arise when there are conditions for it. It is > best not even to think of sati. The most important is right understanding > and that has to begin at the level of intellectual understanding. That is a > foundation that can condition later on direct understanding. Not us who can > stop and check *our awareness*. > Ph: I have to admit, how people will love and admire me for > it. I do, I'm afraid. Fortunately I'm aware of it and am able to laugh at it > now. > N: I like this part, very sincere. We have to develop the perfection of > truthfulness, being honest as to oneself also. Knowing that what we take for > awareness is still thinking. I laugh too at such things. I told my husband > Lodewijk, that I was praised on dsg and that I had immediately conceit. He > beat his breast and cried out loudly: conceit, conceit! We are really joking > about it, it helps in a way to take distance. Next day there is blame for > sure. These are merely very short moments conditioned by kamma. But instead > of pinpointing all such things we can learn characteristics of realities > when they appear, very gradually, as A. Sujin says time and again. > Ph: Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to > now. > N: I used to take thinking (even in a flash) for awareness, but I was cured > of that after discussions in the train in India with A. Sujin, the late Ven. > Dhammadharo, Jon and others. A. Sujin said, developed a lot of awareness and understanding, but this is not so.> I do > not find this discouraging. It is true, and truthfulness can only bring us > good. What is the use of deluding ourselves. And also now, it is difficult > to know when there is thinking of realities and when awareness. But I tend > to think less of sati. Understanding is the goal and this leads to > detachment. First detachment from the idea of self. > Nice talking to you, > Nina. 30611 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard What believe to have been seen by dreams is actually a mental construction of our latency (that is my guess). It is like when we imagine and during such imagination these sense which infact is only our mental fabrications, there is no rupa involved not even mental rupas since sense consciounes is not conditioned to arise. Mental/subtle rupas will only arise only after there is a sense process condition to arise. I do not know much about jhanas. When you experience a golden light, it got nothing to do with sensory inputs as sensory inputs need rupas and senses to be activated. That experience could be purely mental. Just like in a immaterial realm there is mental construction of a "place of dwelling". Maybe that is why the experience is bliss beyong emotive content as it does not need a sensory input (that is my guess) to condition a feeling. Ken O 30612 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Skillfulness in absorption (samadhi) Chapter XIII Jhanasamyutta, SN 34 Connected Discourses in Meditation From the Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publishing, Boston, 2000 with corrections by Jeff Brooks, 02/25/04 1 Attainment in relation to Absorption (samadhi) At Savati, "Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of meditators, what four?..." "Therein, bhikkhus, the meditator who is skilled both in concentration regarding absorption and in attainment regarding absorption is the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of these four kinds of meditators." Skillfulness in absorption (samadhi) is referred to in this sutta in the context of "maintenance, emergence, pliancy, skill in the object of concentration, range, resolution, thoroughness, persistence, suitability." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ 30613 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 2/25/2004 8:51:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > S:Dreams occur during lighter sleep when there are series of mind- door > > cittas (consciousness) interrupting the bhavanga cittas. Sanna > > (perception/marking) is another universal cetasika like jivitindriya which > > arises with every citta, including the bhavangas and all sense door and > > mind door cittas. During dreaming, it `marks' the concepts > > experienced > > through the mind. > ============================ > Sarah, no doubt sa~n~na marks pa~n~natti (like people, trees, and rough-textured walls) arising while dreaming, but I do not believe that only pa~n~natti arise during dreaming. It is my experience that rupas, including sights, sounds, tastes, smells, textures, hardness, warmth, cold, etc, do arise (of course through the mind door) while dreaming, and rupas also arise during jhanas. They are private experiences, but their nature is still rupic. [If you had a materialistic bent, Sarah, I would ask you to think about what you would be experiencing if your nervous system were hooked up to the master computer of "the matrix" while reclining in your pod!] Namas can *only* be experienced through the mind door, but rupas can be experienced through physical sense doors and also through the mind door. In some jhanas, brilliant light is visible. Believe me, it is a dramatic experience that is unquestionably visual, but comes only through the mind door, since the eyes are closed. > I suspect that the reason you don't care for the idea of rupas being experienced while dreaming is that you think "real" rupas are "things out there", independent of experience, which, somehow, consciousness "in here" can make contact with. But I think this becomes problematical in the dream state. When dreaming, we DO experince sights and sounds, for example, that are no different from waking sights and sounds, especially in a lucid dream. If these are to be considered pa~n~natti, then there is no basis for not also thinking that the sights and sounds of waking consciousness are also pa~n~natti, which leaves nothing as "actual"! > > With dreamy metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Thank you for this well-articulated post. I 100% agree with you. I stopped discussing the subject of dreaming because I don't care for other people to tell me that they know what I experience (awake or dreaming) more than I do—and then to quote Buddhist texts only slightly related to the subject in order to draw conclusions that support their viewpoint (i.e. Sarah). May you pick up where I left off and fight the infidels valiantly!! (Oops, Icaro is rubbing off I think! ;-) ;-). Metta, James Ps. I have been experiencing the light that you describe, and the Buddhist texts describe, for the first time since beginning jhana meditation. It isn't what I thought it would be. I thought it would be like a yellowish light, like the sun, but it is actually a pure, white light, like staring into a snow bank on a sunny day or entering a bright, white room where light reflects off all the walls and the ceiling and floor. Is this also comparable to what you experience? 30614 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard, Howard: BTW, the jhanic light I experienced once was not a whiteness - it was, as I experienced it, a brilliant, golden luminescence that extended throughout an infinite spatial panorama, and during the experiencing of it there also was a transporting bliss that is incomparable to any I ever experienced before or since. Thus there was emotive content (nama) and visual content (rupa). James: Oh, I wrote that other post asking about this before I read this post. I guess what we experience is different. My light isn't yellow, it is definitely pure white, but it does extend in all directions. The feeling that accompanies it is a lightness and expansiveness, not really bliss. It is more like a cool light. I am also finding that I am developing the tender stages of psychic abilities like distance viewing. Hmm…anyway, I will keep practicing and see what happens. Have you ever developed psychic abilities as a result of your practice? Metta, James 30615 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Dear Sarah & Christine: Thank you for your warm email. Words elude me when I start writing so I usually take the easy way out. If I manage to survive on this list long enough maybe some of your tact and charm in writing will rub on to me ;-)) A few years ago some expatriates started an hour of sitting meditation every Saturday at a local temple. That grew into a weekend of Dhamma Talks by a senior monk, Achaan Xaly. Since most who attended are westerners with no prior exposure to Buddhism, talks cover very basic topics like instructions on sitting and walking meditation, mindfulness of breath, introduction to Nama- Rupa etc. 5 such weekends have been held so far. I have done the translation on 4. Achaan Xaly is the foremost authority on Abhidhamma in Laos and is responsible for teaching Abhidhamma to the monks nationwide. Due to time constraints, the weekend talks have not been held for the last 2 years. Maybe we can hold one this year. With Metta, Manu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital > Hi Manu (& Christine), > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Manu :-) > > > > Lovely to see you 'in print'! > > I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures > > of us all in Bangkok last month > ..... > Yes, I'm glad to see you in print too! Why not share a few of your > impressions from that same day of discussion and lunch in Bangkok??? We'd > all be glad to hear. > > I should have mentioned in my other letter (I was just in the door and not > even unpacked when I wrote it by way of excuses;-)), that Manu came down > from Laos with exellent listening skills and the occasional question too. > At lunch, Manu, you were asking about the kinds of dukkha and I forget > what else. You may like to read more detailed posts on dukkha under that > heading in U.P. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > You mentioned that every week you translate Abhidhamma talks from Lao to > English at a temple in Vientiane, Laos. Can you tell us more about these > and the topics being discussed? What's the name of the bhikkhu who gives > the talks? > > Finally, you're now off the hook photo-wise, but like James, I'd like to > encourage any newcomers and other shy oldcomers to add a photo to the > member album as an act of dana for us all here: > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 30616 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/25/04 11:14:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > What believe to have been seen by dreams is actually a mental > construction of our latency (that is my guess). It is like when we > imagine and during such imagination these sense which infact is only > our mental fabrications, there is no rupa involved not even mental > rupas since sense consciounes is not conditioned to arise. > Mental/subtle rupas will only arise only after there is a sense > process condition to arise. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know, that is the "Abhidhamma tale". But just for a moment let's look at the "biologist's tale", or, more specifically the "neurologist's tale": In the usual conventional "scientist's story", when we see, a variety of neurological events occur which culminate in certain things happening in the brain that are subjectively experienced as visual object. If the same final neurological events occur, the same brain events, then the same visual experiences occur. (That's what I was pointing to when I mentioned "The Matrix" in my post to Sarah.) There are all sorts of conventional stories available to us. The biological stories are very successful as regards predictive adequacy. I'm not saying that those stories are "true". My point is merely to indicate that sights constitute a particular sort of experience, and that experience always and ultimately occurs in the mind, and it is the nature of the experience that makes it rupic, not the story we associate with it. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I do not know much about jhanas. When you experience a golden light, > it got nothing to do with sensory inputs as sensory inputs need rupas > and senses to be activated. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, when you talk about sensory inputs, you are taking the physicist's or biologist's perspective. But if one is going to do so, one should be consistent. Visual experience from the biophysical perspective comes from specific brain function, and whatever the initial links in the causal chain were, if the final links are the same (i.e. the same brain events occur), then the experiences will be the same. Now, it happens that my perspective is not that of an existing "external world". I believe that the "external world" is only a bunch of stories - useful, especially for predicting experience, but stories nonetheless. What I consider "real" is experience, and not a presumed but unobserved external something-or-other underlying experience. So, from my perspective, experience is the whole story - and hardness experienced under any circumstances, whether one is awake or asleep, is still hardness. --------------------------------------------------------- That experience could be purely mental. > > Just like in a immaterial realm there is mental construction of a > "place of dwelling". Maybe that is why the experience is bliss > beyong emotive content as it does not need a sensory input (that is > my guess) to condition a feeling. > > > Ken O > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30617 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi, James - In a message dated 2/26/04 12:15:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Ps. I have been experiencing the light that you describe, and the > Buddhist texts describe, for the first time since beginning jhana > meditation. It isn't what I thought it would be. I thought it would > be like a yellowish light, like the sun, but it is actually a pure, > white light, like staring into a snow bank on a sunny day or entering > a bright, white room where light reflects off all the walls and the > ceiling and floor. Is this also comparable to what you > experience? > ============================ As you will see from a post that I sent off a minute ago to Ken, our experiences were not identical. The light I experienced *was* golden. but I think that is a minor matter. There are bound to be individual differences. (Your light is white and mine only yellow, so you must be more pure! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30618 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi, James - In a message dated 2/26/04 12:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Howard: BTW, the jhanic light I experienced once was not a whiteness - > it was, as I experienced it, a brilliant, golden luminescence that > extended throughout an infinite spatial panorama, and during the > experiencing of it there also was a transporting bliss that is > incomparable to any I ever experienced before or since. Thus there > was emotive content (nama) and visual content (rupa). > > James: Oh, I wrote that other post asking about this before I read > this post. I guess what we experience is different. My light isn't > yellow, it is definitely pure white, but it does extend in all > directions. The feeling that accompanies it is a lightness and > expansiveness, not really bliss. It is more like a cool light. I am > also finding that I am developing the tender stages of psychic > abilities like distance viewing. Hmm…anyway, I will keep practicing > and see what happens. Have you ever developed psychic abilities as a > result of your practice? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I haven't. Oh, there have been some things ... but nothing really significant or consistent - so, really, no. My wife, who doesn't meditate, though she used to do TM, really does have some abilities in that direction it happens. --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30619 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis, note 27, no 2 Dear Nina (& Larry), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Note 27, no 2: > "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 > [concerning bodily intimation] ... S:I just want to say that I find your ‘walk-throughs’ of the text extremely useful and it was a good idea to post more information on bodily intimation before starting this section. Please do the same for any others. I know it’s a lot of work and when the list is busy, many people will skip over the intricate details, but as questions arise, they’ll come back to it;-) I usually print out these sections to read when I have time to really consider them, so tend to be a little behind. ..... > Note 27 no 2': > Text: 'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason > for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of > intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? <...> > N: The seventh javama-citta originates the intimation expressing a > meaning, > but, the previous six javana-cittas causing the strengthening and > supporting > of the body are the decisive support for the seventh one that originates > intimation. > > Text: The stiffening, upholding, and movement are due to the > air element associated with the alteration belonging to the intimation, > is what is said. > > N: The alteration: the unique change (vikaara) in the great Elements is > bodily intimation. .... S:We have an idea of making an intention and then moving he body, but in reality there are many conditions and factors involved in order for the elements to be changed in such a way as to bring about bodily intimation. Why do our intentions sometimes not result in movements such as when we’re sick or coming out of a come or anaesthesia? There are not the decisive support conditions (such as in the earlier javana cittas) which enable the seventh citta to condition those bodily intimation rupas. We learn how very brief, complex and conditioned the namas and rupas involved are and how many cittas accompanied by cetana (intention) must be involved for any movement to take place. We also learn more about the great wisdom of the Buddha who conveyed all these fine details. It might seem, therefore, that this is only theoretical or that awareness can’t take place. But that’s just thinking about it. Even whilst considering the anatta-ness of dhammas or the subtle nature of bodily intimation there may be wise attention. Furthermore, whilst considering, there are so many other realities - seeing, hearing, annoyance perhaps, confusion and so on. Awareness can slip in anytime and be aware of any reality, again by conditions. A moment of awareness of any nama or rupa is more precious than merely thinking about any detail. ..... > N: There are only dhammas rolling on because of conditions, they are > uninterested, they do not know anything. They are very momentary > (kha.nika), > they fall away immediately. It just seems that a coloured surface, that > hands are moving, but in reality there are different dhammas arising in > adjacent locations from moment to moment. ..... S:And this is the aim of considering any part of the teachings which are all in conformity: the understanding of the nature of the ‘uninterested’ dhammas rolling on. People may think that by understanding, not doing anything special, that our worlds will collapse. As you’ve said, ‘let them crumble away’;-) The understanding of dhammas as anatta leads to taking refuge in the Triple Gem, not the reverse. Another comment you gave, Nina. concerned the ‘receiver of intimation’. The person watching us gesticulate or giving some indication, may or may not understand the meaning. “But, the rupa originated from the seventh javanacitta of the intimator occurred, even if the other person or animal did not understand what the meaning was.” It’s obvious when we put it like this. We all get misunderstood or ignored all the time. It’s just the same when we have metta or any other state. The ‘meaning’ or kind of citta may or may not be understood and the other person or animal may or may not be affected in anyway. Larry, thank you for typing out all the notes. I really appreciate looking at it carefully in this way. If people don’t respond on these threads, I’m sure it’s because it is such a difficult area which most of us can only consider at the right time. We never know when it’ll be and if it’s never the right time, that’s OK too;-). Please keep up your fine questions and comments regardless. Even though I tend to spread myself very thin by poking my nose into every study corner and therefore don’t often respond here, please know I greatly appreciate yours and Nina’s work. Nina, I’m also greatly looking forward to your detailed account of discussions and dhamma in Thailand. I just relaxed on return, knowing that you’d be giving a very comprehensive account;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, I’m also greatly looking forward to your detailed account of discussions and dhamma in Thailand. I just relaxed on return, knowing that you’d be giving a very comprehensive account;-) ======= 30620 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:52pm Subject: fulfilling promise To the Faceless Crowd: What looks like a picture of me intending to amputate some limbs while the pear tree is just starting to blossom is really just a reminder that there is no right time to do things other than when they happen. May your tools be sharp, connie 30621 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, --- Philip wrote: > > I feel so deeply grateful for having come across this group. I am > now digging into the useful posts file, trying to find answers about > how I can harmonize my traditional application of Right Effort with > the teaching of the Abhidhamma. ..... S:Philip, your posts have been like a gentle breeze blowing by;-) I know some of us are greatly encouraged by your keen interest and support. .... > I'll now return to lurking mode for a month (until April 1) to do > the reading I need to do. .... S:That’s Nina’s birthday, so you can return with a long list of Abhidhamma questions for her and make her day;-) .... >It might seem odd to make such a > declaration, but I know that I have trouble controling my hunger for > sending posts to discussion groups, and there is so much reading I > need to do. If I declare a month of abstinence from posting, I will > be too embrassed to break it. It's quite comical being me! > I will be following your discussions with keen interest. .... S:LOL We never know by conditions....no need to be embarrassed and heap up unnecessary kilesa (defilements). Declarations of abstinence on DSG should all be broken imho;-)Anyway, I’ll look forward to your posts whenever it is, Philip. I particularly liked your insisting that aspects of your ‘interest in dhamma is an unhealthy attachment’. Yes! We need to know realities just as they are. When I write a letter, read a dhamma text or sit in a discussion, there is also plenty of attachment arising in between a few noble qualities and sense door experiences. Even now, I’m smiling as I write with passing attachment;-)[I think, Ken O, it’s very easy to mistake unwholesome chanda for wholesome chanda....More and more subtle attachments can and should be known]. Thank you for getting back on the ‘thousand candles can be lighted from a single candle’. We can understand it and use it as a reminder however we like. By understanding namas and rupas now, as Ken O always says, the meanings in the suttas become more apparent and life runs simply and naturally as our wrong views are slowly discarded. Through understanding, we’ll then know how to help others appropriately, according to possibilites and our inclinations and tendencies. I appreciate your kind intentions in this regard. As we also learn more about conditions and the meaning of right effort and so on, we can understand that we can only try our best to help colleagues, friends or family, but no one can control the conditions for their wholesome states anymore than for ours. Wholesome states are as anatta as any other realities. Thank you again, Philip for all your friendly, kind comments. No need to feel embarrassed if you break your vow to post;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll look forward to the pic too. For dinosaurs like me who don’t have photos on their computers, just take a shot (passport or driving licence pic is OK) to a photo shop and ask to have it put on a disc. If that’s too complicated, mail it to James or someone with techno skills;-) ====================================== 30622 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is Dhamma subjective? Hi Eznir (and Howard), You wrote: > And how does one construct this path? Through intentions. Because > intending is what one normally does every moment of the day. How does > he intend? Through body, speech and mind; the very same 5-holding- > aggregates that he is burdened with. Now that he knows "this"(5- > holding-aggregates) is suffering, he uses the very same aggregates to > get out of. Can you elaborate further on the above? Assuming that you have read my recent exchange with Howard regarding the role of "volition"; could you point out to me, what I am overlooking? Metta, Sukin. 30623 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Have you ever worked out by running on a threadmill? <...> > To do aerobic exercise, one exercise one's body. .... S:I didn’t forget the treadmill....I agree it’s a good kind of exercise for those who don’t have knee problems like me. Now if you tell me your aim is to exercise your body and to get fit, I’d say ‘go ahead’ as I do to my friends at the gym. However, if you were to tell me your purpose was to realize the 4NT, I’d say ‘wait a moment. Show me the connection’. .... >To meditate, one > develops and cultivates one's mind. Running on the threadmill might > look silly or simply wrong to some, but there is a purpose for doing > so. Just like there is a purpose for meditation: to develop and > cultivate one's mind. .... S: Here, I assume you’re referring to ‘formal’ or ‘sitting’ meditation. Again, if you were to tell me that your purpose was to have a quiet break in the day, to develop your breathing practice for health benefits or yoga, or to give the keyboard a rest, I’d say ‘go ahead’ as I do to my yoga friends. However, when you say that the purpose is to develop and cultivate your mind, again, I’d say ‘wait a moment. Show me the connection’. How can 'any meditation technique' result in wisdom and knowledge of the 4NT, just because this is one’s aim? .... >And the cessation of dukkha is impossible > without developing and cultivating one's mind in terms of right > effort (samma vayamo), right awareness (samma sati), and right > concentration (samma samadhi). .... S:The point being made by others in your study corner, however, is that these eightfold path factors are conditioned, not by a self wishing or intending, but by the careful considering and understanding of the teaching contained in the entire Dhamma-Vinaya (Tipitaka). .... > Now, it is one's choice to meditate or not. If one chose not to > meditate, no one else could force him or her to do otherwise. > Nevertheless, whether one chose meditate or not, one could still > appreciate others who actually did. That appreciation, as I see it, > is mudita. .... S: If your first friend told you he/she intended to realize the 4NT by running faster and faster on the treadmill and you understood this way of thinking to be quite erroneous, would it be mudita or any kind of appreciation to encourage him/her in this view? You quoted from this sutta, AN VII, 67 Mental Development (1) “Monks, although a monk who does not apply himself to the meditative development of his mind may wish, "Oh, that my mind might be freed from the taints by non-clinging!", yet his mind will not be freed. For what reason? "Because he has not developed his mind," one has to say. Not developed it in what? In the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, the four bases of success, the five spiritual faculties, the five spiritual powers, the seven factors of enlightenment and the Noble Eightfold Path.” In other words, it is not the wishing like the hen for the chicks to hatch that will lead to the developed mind, but the development of satipatthana.* Actually, it doesn’t matter at all what I think, Victor. We’re all considering the texts together and acting or not acting according to our very limited understanding. I certainly greatly appreciate and have lots of mudita with regard to your own careful reflections, reading of suttas and discussion in the new DSC;-) .... > Please drop by the new Dhamma study corner - Recognizing the Dhamma > sometime. I look forward to your participation. .... S:Thanks I will. Please don’t mind if I’m always a little behind. Let me leave you with this quote about the Nine Factors: http://www.abhidhamma.org/small%20learning.htm “Brethren, who is the well-versed person that leads a virtuous life ? Here (in the world) -a certain one who is well-versed (in the Norm consisting of the said Nine Factors) and, knowing the primary and interpreted meaning of the text, governs his life thereby. Brethren, this is the person who is well-versed and leads a virtuous life. Brethren, these four persons are indeed to be seen existing in the world.' He who is ignorant and careless in his ways- Men blame him for his ways and lack of learning too. He who is ignorant, but careful in his ways- Men praise his character, the' knowledge is not his He who is deep in lore, but careless in his ways- Men blame his character; his knowledge goes for naught. He who is deep in, lore and careful in his Men praise his character and learning deep as well.” Metta, Sarah ==== * In Asia, we’re all looking at a lot of pictures of hens and baby chicks these days on the neww. This is an extract from an earlier post about the chickens metaphor in the SN version. (James, I liked your post to Nina a lot on the ship;-)). ..... Nina: >The eggshell the chickens have to break through is ignorance. I looked up the Pali Co and just glanced through it. Most interesting: the bhikkhu lacks in vipassana. The right conditions are climate, food, people, listening to dhamma, dhamma savana sappaaya.m. Because of his former gradual training his panna ripens and he can attain arahatship in one session. Sarah > more commentary notes as given by B.Bodhi: note 212 “Spk elaborates on the comparison of the bhikkhu’s enlightenment to the hatching of the chicks: the hen’s preparatory work is like the bhikkhu’s devotion to development. The nonrotting of the eggs is like the bhikkhu’s devotion to development. The nonrotting of the eggs is like th bhikkhu’s not falling away from insight knowledge; the drying up of the moisture in the eggs is like the drying up of attachment to the three realms of existence; the thinning of the egg shells is like th thinning of ignorance; the maturation of the chicks is like the maturation of insight knowledge. The time when the chicks break the shells and merge safely is like the time when the bhikkhu breaks the shell of ignorance and attains arahantship. And as the chicks go about adorning the village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery.” ========================================== 30624 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > to passion, not to dispassion; > to being fettered, not to being unfettered; > to accumulating, not to shedding; > to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; > to discontent, not to contentment; > to entanglement, not to seclusion; > to laziness, not to aroused persistence; > to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' .... S: In other words, these states lead to continuation of the cycle. Accumulating (accayaaya). Mahapajapati Gotami attained arahantship on hearing this sutta. She understood the deep meaning. Her lifestyle as a nun didn’t change, but her wisdom fully penetrated the full meaning of ‘being fettered’, ‘entanglement’, ‘burdensome’ and so on. These all refer to mental states. .... > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > to dispassion, not to passion; <...> > > > So it is based on these eight pairs of principles or criteria, one > can examine for him or herself whether something is the Dhamma, the > Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. As I see it, 'these qualities' > in the passage has much broader meaning than 'what is being said.' .... S: I agree. We could discuss each one, looking at the Pali term. We’ve already discussed the meaning of seclusion (pavivekaaya) before. .... > They include one's actions and conduct, skillful or unskillful. > They also include the principle in accordance or not in accordance > to the principle of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. .... S:As on the discussion of guarding the senses, I see them as referring to mental states which of course may lead to actions and conduct. In Mahapajapati Gotami’s case, she understand and eradicated the most subtle attachments. .... > The objective for this study is twofold: > > First, to know these eight principles. > > Secondly, to apply these eight principles. .... S:How are they known and applied? Again,when you mention ‘apply’, it sounds like something to be done rather than understood. .... > The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study with > passages from the discourses. We can discuss and verify these > principles in relation to the discourse passages. .... S:Good. Should be then consider these ‘principles’ further, one at a time? .... >We can also come > up with our own examples (such as thoughts about Mel Gibson in > shower) such that we can apply these eight principles. If you like, > we can also examine some doctrines in the Abhidhamma Pitaka with > respect to the eight principles. .... S:The single most important point is to understand these qualities as anatta, arising or not arising according to conditions as others have said. I don’t understand Mahapajapati to have ‘applied’ anything, but to have understood the true meaning of the words. Metta, Sarah ====== 30625 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, S:I think we’re fully agreed on all the initial points;-), so I’m skipping to the end. Thank you for answering my questions here: --- htootintnaing wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I can sense you and your questions. It doesn't sound impolite > or disrespectful. > > Q1. The purpose of practising breathing meditation > Q2. The special achievement > Q3. Tools and Map > Q4. Choices > > A1. Ultimate aim is practising mahasatipatthana to attain Arahatta > Magga Nana. At the earlier part the aim is to focus. This can be > breathing meditation at nostril or at abdomen. Just for initial focus. .... S: Why is the earlier aim to focus? We agreed there are only paramattha dhammas, whether there is any knowledge of them or not. Why is the earlier aim not to hear, consider and begin to understand them as for the later part? .... > A2. As initiated and maintained, no more focus is needed. Just to see > real phenomena with wisdom. So the meditator achieves relaxed and > flexible method in meditation. .... S:When I read about a special focus and then no focus or as others sometimes write, using a self to understand non-self, it makes no sense to me. There is no self to focus in the first place. If there is a special focus or concentration, it seems like an idea of catching or slowing down realities again or trying to control the conditions. .... > A3. Necessary knowledge. I think necessary. But not in actual sense > if can practise properly. That knowledge is tool. You have been > constantly poking through my messages. I am not disturbed. .... S: Excellent! This is a real ‘poking’ group, all in good friendship;-) .... >But what I > want to say here is that you have a good knowledge that there is no > Atta. That is tool. So you have tool. More tools are method of > practice. Map is what shows landmarks. .... S:So we agree here that the theoretical right understanding is essential. If there is the idea of atta, there will be practise with the idea of atta. We can certainly agree this understanding is the tool and the map shows the landmarks. .... > A4. You can choooe what you like. This is in conventional term. If > there is no you, 'you' cannot choose. Some chose to become a > Sammasambuddha. Some to become Paccekabuddhas. Some Agga Savaka. Some > Mahasavaka. Some Etadagga. And so on. .... S:OK You explained this nicely before in terms of paramattha dhammas. I think we have to be careful when we say ‘some choose to become...’. It all depends on conditions. ..... > Htoo: There are 62 kinds of Micchaditthi. Wrong view is the worst. > > If someone kills another but he does not have wrong view, then he may > not suffer long as those with wrong view. .... S:Excellent! And all wrong views are based on self views, so this has to be understood and eradicated first. .... > May you feel ease and peace and practise mahasatipatthana and achieve > something right now. .... S:That’s it.....sati sampajanna now...no need to wait for a special time or special focus and wasting time not understanding the present realities arising and falling away as we speak. You mentioned in Sensing Dhammas (3) that ‘his concentrated mind stays for a while’ when really, I don’t believe any citta or cetasika stays at all, falling away as soon as it has arisen. Thank you for your other clarification in the other post which I understood. I was just being dense the first time, I think. You asked if I am ‘Mahayana’;-) Please let me know why you ask. I’m intrigued. Actually, I just read the Pali canon a little. I was brought up strictly as a Christian, but I became very interested in the Buddha’s teachings when I was about 20. My turn to ask a personal question:-) Where do you live, Htoo? (Just a continent or country if you don’t wish to say exactly). Also, I’d be very honoured if you’d share a photo in our album. If you need help, there are many willing hands to assist with this. Metta and appreciation again with your good responses to all the ‘poking’;-)I enjoy these discussions a lot - no need to quote or explain terms or texts;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 30626 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard > Howard: > Yes, I know, that is the "Abhidhamma tale". k: This is not just Abhidhamma tale, the suttas also said that. H: But just for a moment let's look at the "biologist's tale", or, more specifically the "neurologist's tale": In the usual conventional "scientist's story", when we see, a variety of neurological events occur which culminate in certain things happening in the brain that are subjectively experienced as visual object. If the same final > neurological events occur, the same brain events, then the same > visual experiences occur. (That's what I was pointing to when I mentioned "The Matrix" in my post to Sarah.) There are all sorts of conventional stories available to us. The biological stories are very successful as regards predictive adequacy. I'm not saying that those stories are "true". My point is merely to indicate that sights constitute a particular sort of experience, and that experience always and ultimately occurs in the mind, and it is the nature of the > experience that makes it rupic, not the story we associate with it. k: I remember is that sensory consciouness arise at the sense organs and not at the mind. What biologist seen at the mind is the mind door process that goes in tandem with a sense process. It was conditioned since beginnless in such a way to fool us that sense consciouness arise in the mind. Moreover, maybe I am not a biologist, I think it is nerve that understand information and transmit it to the brain of what it receive, which in turn the mind experience the so call information. So consciouness can arise on the nerve which can be found everywhere. This is my guess. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, when you talk about sensory inputs, you are taking > the physicist's or biologist's perspective. But if one is going to do so, one should be consistent. Visual experience from the biophysical perspective comes from specific brain function, and whatever the initial links in the causal chain were, if the final links are the same (i.e. the same brain events occur), then the > experiences will be the same. k: As I earlier said, the mind is conditioned in this way, so it won't be surprising due to its conditioning, sensory inputs seem to arise which in fact is the mind memory at work and not the sense consciouness. That is why the sutta specifically said form and eye, eye consciouness arise. So without visible rupa or without eye, there will be no eye consciouness. What is seem to be "see" in the brain is IMHO pure memory that is conditioned to work in such a way. H: Now, it happens that my perspective is not that of an existing "external world". I believe that the "external world" is only a bunch of stories - useful, especially for predicting experience, but stories nonetheless. What I consider "real" is experience, and not a presumed but unobserved external something-or-other underlying experience. So, from my perspective, experience is the whole story - and hardness experienced under any circumstances, whether one is awake or asleep, is still hardness. K: External world can be also real, we cannot presume that the hardness we felt on solid matters are not real. The table may not be real but the hardness is. the world as we see heard or hear are just basically because of our ignorance that did not see the delusion created by the four great elements. But the four great elements are real and can be experienced. On the issue that unobserved experience is not real is not justifiable. Just like the immaterial planes are not observable or observable with any scientific equipment to human, that does not mean they do not exist. It is only observable with the divine eye which only can be attain through panna. In the same way, sensory consciouness or rupas cannot be directly experience does not mean they are not there, it is only panna that is not developed yet to experience them. Ken O 30627 From: Philip Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hello Sarah, and all. I hope you enjoyed my April Fool's joke. I am already back! P :> > I feel so deeply grateful for having come across this group. I am > > now digging into the useful posts file, trying to find answers about > > how I can harmonize my traditional application of Right Effort with > > the teaching of the Abhidhamma. P: Grateful is one way to put it. Feverish is another. I have been feeling devoted day in, day out to deepening my Buddhist practice but coming across the ideas in the Abhidhamma seem to have turned my enthusiasm into a kind of fever - I actually have come down with a cold, and a slight fever, as it happens. Obviously, a feverish interest in something is not healthy, or sustainable. I don't know quite what to do about it. Reading the chapter on defilements that Christine was kind enough to link me to made me realize that vowing NOT to post would be just as self-feeding as posting often, but with awareness. I guess everyone goes through this as some point in their practice. Zeal cranked up into a kind of frenzy of desire for dhamma. It's interesting that it didn't happen right at the beginning of my interest in Buddhism. That came about 15 years ago. I guess the conditions ripened, and here it is. Looking at the forms of clinging, I wondered if it is attavadupanada -clinging to the ego-idea. As I mentionned before, I am so attached to all my dhamma binders, and during the day often go and pick one up, and glance in it, and put it down, and pick up another one. Throughout the day, again and again. As I mentionned before, the last time I became this deeply absorbed in soemthing was when I started to study Kanji, and it could be the Pali language aspect of the abhidhamma is one of the things that has triggered my interest, which again would suggest ego at work. Does anyone have any advice about how to handle this craving? I am thinking about the Factors of Awakening, which contain both calming and stirring factors. Obviously I need to be cultivating equanimity and concentration now. That's another thing. My morning meditation has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my sitting time for awhile. > S:Philip, your posts have been like a gentle breeze blowing by;-) I know > some of us are greatly encouraged by your keen interest and support. P: I hope everyone feels that way. Some people might feel it as hot wind. I can imagine that when a group has been together as long as this one has, there are stretches when the vitality seems to flag. If there's one person who feels the vitality of her or his practice in any way stirred up by my posts, I would be very happy. (snip) > .... > > If I declare a month of abstinence from posting, I will > > be too embrassed to break it. It's quite comical being me! P: Fortunately I wasn't. That's a good sign. It is comical. I make myself laugh sometimes. Being able to laugh at oneself might be a sign of letting go of rigid self-images. > > S: Declarations of abstinence on DSG should > all be broken imho;-) P: I agree, definitely. :) > > I particularly liked your insisting that aspects of your `interest in > dhamma is an unhealthy attachment?E Yes! We need to know realities just as > they are. When I write a letter, read a dhamma text or sit in a > discussion, there is also plenty of attachment arising in between a few > noble qualities and sense door experiences. Even now, I'm smiling as I > write with passing attachment;-)[I think, Ken O, it's very easy to mistake > unwholesome chanda for wholesome chanda....More and more subtle > attachments can and should be known]. P: Yes, I'm sure this is true. I mean, I'm sure many of us have our library of dhamma materials that we would run into a conflagration to try to rescue, don't we? There is something paradoxical about a way of practice that stresses direct experience but which almost always leads people to collect a lot of books, isn't there? > S: Thank you for getting back on the `thousand candles can be lighted from a > single candle?E We can understand it and use it as a reminder however we > like. By understanding namas and rupas now, as Ken O always says, the > meanings in the suttas become more apparent and life runs simply and > naturally as our wrong views are slowly discarded. Through understanding, > we'll then know how to help others appropriately, according to > possibilites and our inclinations and tendencies. I appreciate your kind > intentions in this regard. P: When I was reading in bed this afternoon, during my long and hard period of abstinence, I came across this from Nina's Parmis book, in the chapter on Dana : "We experience ourselves that even a small act of kindness from other can mean a great deal to us and thus, when there is an opportunity to do something for others, even something which seems insignificant, we should not overlook such an opportunity. Sarah reminded me of this fact time and time again by her words and example." I don't post that to butter you up (I assume that you are the Sarah in question) but because I am still very interested in the thing that happened the other day. How your taking a moment to ask me about my reading on the Paramis led to this burst of enthusiasm, and a huge window opening in my practice, and therefor my life. In Japanese there is a concept called "kotodama", which is literally "soul of the word" but figuratively means that a word can have incredible power to reach out and touch people (though this concept is also used by people who want to cast nasty spells) and this "how's you reading going?" incident drove the truth of "koto dama" home to me. And the candle analogy as well. (snip) > S: p.s I'll look forward to the pic too. For dinosaurs like me who don 't have > photos on their computers, just take a shot (passport or driving licence > pic is OK) to a photo shop and ask to have it put on a disc. If that 's too > complicated, mail it to James or someone with techno skills;-) P: I think I can figure it out. In the meantime, here's a picture from a publishing company that put out a children's picture book I wrote a few years ago. (terrible sales and mediocre reviews, but I like it.) http://www.annickpress.com/ai/coristine.html All right. Time to prepare tomorrow's lesson. The other thing about my dhamma frenzy is that it's biting into the time I should be spending on other things. Well, who's to say what I should be doing. Thanks again for your kind comments. Let's see if I can get my practice back in the middle way. Sorry if there are typos in this. My wife is calling and no time for a proof read. Metta, Philip 30628 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] fulfilling promise Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > To the Faceless Crowd: > What looks like a picture of me intending to amputate some limbs while > the pear tree is just starting to blossom is really just a reminder that > there is no right time to do things other than when they happen. > May your tools be sharp, > connie ..... ;-) a very nice picture too. Many thanks. The next lucky photo poster to the member album will be placed next to Connie in the pear tree blossom with her sharp tools. I think there are a few other half promises out there..... Metta, Sarah p.s Andy, I forget if we thanked you for posting yours so promptly without the usual nagging;-) ====== 30629 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard, Howard: The light I experienced *was* golden. but I think that is a minor matter. James: Yes, it is a very minor matter. I was just curious. The light doesn't mean anything anyway; I still stay focused on and around the breath when the light arises. Howard: There are bound to be individual differences. (Your light is white and mine only yellow, so you must be more pure! ;-)) James: HA! I don't think so!! ;-) My mind probably just has more modern, energy-efficient, florescent light bulbs installed! ;-)) Metta, James 30630 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi, Sarah (and Victor) - In a message dated 2/26/04 4:19:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Again, if you were to tell me that your purpose was to have a quiet break > in the day, to develop your breathing practice for health benefits or > yoga, or to give the keyboard a rest, I’d say ‘go ahead’ as I do to my > yoga friends. > > However, when you say that the purpose is to develop and cultivate your > mind, again, I’d say ‘wait a moment. Show me the connection’. How can 'any > meditation technique' result in wisdom and knowledge of the 4NT, just > because this is one’s aim? > ============================ In reply to this question, it's not the aim that does it, but the practice. The following is some of what the Buddha had to say about the usefulness of meditation. With metta, Howard ________________________________________________ The material follows: Jhana and insight hand-in-hand >       There's    no jhana >    for one with    no discernment, >                no discernment >    for one with    no jhana. >    But one with    both jhana >                & discernment: > he's on the verge >       of Unbinding. > >> -- Dhp 372 > _________________________________________ Purification depends on concentration > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first > jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the > infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the > dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations > depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." > >> -- AN IX.36 > ________________________________________ § 162. Skill in concentration. Suppose there was a mountain cow -- foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains -- and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof without having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would not get to go in a direction she had never gone before, to eat grass she had never eaten before, or to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when th e thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go where I have never been before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would not return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a foolish, inexperienced mountain cow, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains. In the same way, there are cases where a monk -- foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with his pasture, unskilled in... entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation -- doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance.' He is not able... to enter & remain in the second jhana... The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the first jhana... He is not able... to enter & remain in the first jhana. This is called a monk who has slipped & fallen from both sides, like the mountain cow, foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains. But suppose there was a mountain cow -- wise, experienced, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains -- and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof only after having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would get to go in a direction she had never gone before... to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when the thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a wise, experienced mountain cow, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains. ===> [Please note the conscious decision making and volition involved in the following] In the same way, there are some cases where a monk -- wise, experienced, familiar with his pasture, skilled in... entering & remaining in the first jhana... sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the second jhana...' Without jumping at the second jhana, he -- with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation -- enters & remains in the second jhana. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the third jhana'... Without jumping at the third jhana, he... enters & remains in the third jhana. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the fourth jhana'... Without jumping at the fourth jhana, he... enters & remains in the fourth jhana. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, "Infinite space," were to enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of space.' Without jumping at the dimension of the infinitude of space, he... enters & remains in dimension of the infinitude of space. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, thinking, "Infinite consciousness," were to enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.' Without jumping at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, he... enters & remains in dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. He st icks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, "There is nothing," were to enter & remain in the dimension of nothingness.' Without jumping at the dimension of nothingness, he... enters & remains in dimension of nothingness. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues, it & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, were to enter & remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' Without jumping at the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he... enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, were to enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling.' Without jumping at the cessation of perception & feeling, he... enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. --------> [Here it comes, Sarah! Her's the point, as I see it.] < --------- When a monk enters & emerges from that very attainment, his mind is pliant & malleable. With his pliant, malleable mind, limitless concentration is well developed. With his well developed, limitless concentration, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. > > > -- AN IX.35 _________________________________________ MN4 Bhaya-bherava Sutta (Fear & Terror) "Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. ---------> [Okay - here's the point again!] <---------- "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. --------------> [And again!] <-------------- "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. --------------> [And yet again] <-------------- "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30631 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/26/04 6:07:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > I remember is that sensory consciouness arise at the sense organs > and not at the mind. > ========================= It is just a manner of speaking to say that sensory consciousness arises at the sense organs. As a literal statement it is utter nonsense. One's eyes may be working just fine, but if one is unconscious there is no visual consciousness. Consciousness does not arise in the eyes, nor in the ears, nor on the tongue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30632 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard It is not nonsense, brain is a concept so does sensory organs. Brain is conventionally where all the mind door process works but not the sense process. Brain is conditioned to work and it thinks it has sense process. We only know these experiences due to snowballing effect of countless cittas streams and it is difficult to know which is sensory which is mind just like fine sand and dust are mixed we cannot know which is which. Due to our conditioning and current science research we thought it is the brain. For example when an pin prick into a finger, the pain is felt on the finger but not on the brain. It is the nerve that transmit the information, without them, I dont think the brain will know where is the pain at all. Body consciouness arise at the pain area. Science has never prove Abdhidhamma wrong, it is unobservable does not mean it is not there. Ken O 30633 From: Eznir Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Dear Howard, Some food for thought in your interpretation of paticcasamuppada: 1) Why assume a linear relationship among the factors, why not a simultaneous occurrence of these factors, or a mixture of both. 2) In an Arahant, after the `eradication of the entire process' on what basis did their aggregates continue to survive and feel pain etc. till they broke apart. 3) The sense of subjectivity in "Vinnana as subjectivity(i.e., the sense of a knowing self)" and the sense of subjectivity as in personality view(subject/object duality)- Cannot these two senses of subjectivity be different. The former an entity(the 5-aggregates) the latter a mirage. 4) If (3) above is possible how would the paticcasamuppada unravel. Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > And yet one more thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition > for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why > volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if > vi~n~nana is subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing self), it is clear, I > think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. > > With metta, > Howard > 30634 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Hi, Eznir - In a message dated 2/26/04 10:30:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, eznir2003@y... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > Some food for thought in your interpretation of paticcasamuppada: > > 1) Why assume a linear relationship among the factors, why not a > simultaneous occurrence of these factors, or a mixture of both. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that there is, indeed, a mix of predecessor conditioning and simultaneous conditioning. In particular, I think that vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana are co-occurring and mutually conditioning. -------------------------------------------------- > > 2) In an Arahant, after the `eradication of the entire process' on > what basis did their aggregates continue to survive and feel pain > etc. till they broke apart. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't interpret the eradication of the entire process as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance-based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective knowns. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self-experiencing. When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. --------------------------------------------------- > > 3) The sense of subjectivity in "Vinnana as subjectivity(i.e., the > sense of a knowing self)" and the sense of subjectivity as in > personality view(subject/object duality)- Cannot these two senses of > subjectivity be different. The former an entity(the 5-aggregates) the > latter a mirage. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure! Subjectivity (meaning "the sense of a knowing self") really does arise in the mind, and it does so practically all the time. But the "knowing self" that is sensed does not exist. So, the subjectivity (i.e., the seeming of knowing self) is a mirage/illusion in the sense that it actually points to nothing, just as the seeming of a pool of water in an utterly dry desert is a mirage/illusion because there is no pool - but, in each case, the mirage/illusion does arise in the mind of the weary wanderer. Language use is funny, of course. Sometimes 'mirage' means the illusory experience (which exists), and sometimes it means the non-existent "thing" that seems to be experienced. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > 4) If (3) above is possible how would the paticcasamuppada unravel. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not clear on your point here. But getting back to your item # 3, by 'subjectivity' I do not mean "personality view", which ends with stream entry, but "sense of self", which doesn't end until arahanthood. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta > > eznir =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30635 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/25/04 7:26:30 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Jack: Have you read the Thanissaro article to which I referred? James: Yes, I did. I read it before I sent the last post. I didn't want to comment too much because there are many, many things I don't agree with in that article. Actually, I did a complete double take when I read it! I was incredulous that Thanissaro had even written it. James. I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. [snip' James: I think it is significant and telling that the Buddha never spoke of the jhanas in brief. It demonstrates how valuable they are. Have you come across any instances where he spoke of jhanas in brief? There has been lots of sutta quotes lately on this list that just mention the word "jhana" by itself so I don't know what you mean by "jhanas in brief." I get the impression that when the word "jhana" is used by itself in a sutta , a likely translation is meditation or low grade concentration and does not refer to jhana level attainment. But, I don't really know. Be well. jack 30636 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, Philip: As I mentionned before, I am so attached to all my dhamma binders, and during the day often go and pick one up, and glance in it, and put it down, and pick up another one. Throughout the day, again and again. As I mentionned before, the last time I became this deeply absorbed in soemthing was when I started to study Kanji, and it could be the Pali language aspect of the abhidhamma is one of the things that has triggered my interest, which again would suggest ego at work. Does anyone have any advice about how to handle this craving? James: My advice would be to relax a bit, stop trying so hard to `fix yourself', and work on `Right View' before you delve into any more dhamma study or meditation. What you are suffering from is common to all Buddhist practitioners at one point or another: Spiritual Materialism. It is odd that it has taken this long to manifest in your practice but perhaps it really has been there all along? The most important thing to do, I believe, is not to overreact to this Spiritual Materialism and thus allow the neurotic tendencies to resurface in other ways/areas. It is simply conceit, mana, reasserting itself in all that you do. To work on Right View, and change your priorities, I would suggest you read up on Spiritual Materialism. Here is some material from an Internet source followed by the link: "We have come here to learn about spirituality. I trust the genuine quality of this search but we must question its nature. The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality. Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit. The teachings are treated as an external thing, external to "me," a philosophy which we try to imitate. We do not actually want to identify with or become the teachings. So if our teacher speaks of renunciation of ego, we attempt to mimic renunciation of ego. We go through the motions, make the appropriate gestures, but we really do not want to sacrifice any part of our way of life. We become skillful actors, and while playing deaf and dumb to the real meaning of the teachings, we find some comfort in pretending to follow the path." http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Philip: My morning meditation has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my sitting time for awhile. James: My advice is that you do neither for a while and practice mindfulness and development of Right View before you proceed further. Studying dhamma to `fix yourself' or meditating to `fix yourself' are both wrong practices. No reason to become overly alarmed and stop all practice, but you should work on this before you proceed. In this group there are many members who have turned the study of dhamma into a Spiritual Materialism but believe that they don't suffer from such a thing because they don't meditate. HA! Same-Same. Conceit will rear its ugly head wherever and whenever it can. Metta, James 30637 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? dear James and Philip > Philip: My morning meditation has been disturbed by an overwhelming > desire to hit the books. So the first thing to do is get back on the > cushion, and maybe increase my sitting time for awhile. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Think about the fact that the time you spend on meditation - Vipassana, Zen, Tibetan, Tantric, etc - deeps and grounds your experience either at insight or Excel tables or whatever you tie up your attention. And this' a hint on context itself: time passes on and you perceive that your posture is more solid-state, your breathing more paused and your mind more fixed up. Ekagatta. And if you don't control your eatings,lunchs, donuts, marshmallows, Cheeseburgers,Budweisers,Heinekens, Fettucine, T-Bone steaks,Apfelstrudels, chop shueis, Vichyssoises, fried potatoes, Porrigdes (yummmmm), "Feijudas", chilis, tortillas, Foundes with Gouda, Emmemnthal, Gorgonzolla, Rochefort, Camembert,Chocolates,Baked Potatoes, macarroni, Gnocchi alla Romana, Musli, Corn flakes, Kosher foods, milk shakes, Chicken Mcnuggets, Indonesian Ris,Pork meatballs, curried chicken, glazed duck, marinatted pig, jerky beef, giblets in soysauce etc, etc, etc you will become fattier also! Don't throw away your books before you perceive by insight that they are inutile!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > James: My advice is that you do neither for a while and practice > mindfulness and development of Right View before you proceed > further. Studying dhamma to `fix yourself' or meditating to `fix > yourself' are both wrong practices. -------------------------------------------------------------------- A good scorin' as usual James! You can try to "sedimentate" the leafs of your mind with time and a good position to meditate. A deep and paused breathe could help you also. --------------------------------------------------------------------- No reason to become overly > alarmed and stop all practice, but you should work on this before you > proceed. In this group there are many members who have turned the > study of dhamma into a Spiritual Materialism but believe that they > don't suffer from such a thing because they don't meditate. HA! > Same-Same. Conceit will rear its ugly head wherever and whenever it > can. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto! Mettaya, Ícaro 30638 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor op 25-02-2004 21:30 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: If > you like, you may also want bring up some doctrine in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka and examine it with the these eight principles for > recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. That > would offer some examples in applying these eight principles. N: Yes, it is the application that is essential. As we read in the Co: the Buddha taught here being in the cycle, vatta, and release from the cycle: vivatta. We read that Gotamid became an arahat after hearing this Discourse. Thus, what we read here is certainly not just theory. We read about attachment and detachment as they arise in our life. The Abhidhamma helps us to gain more understanding of the deep meaning of kusala and akusala we read about in this sutta. Passion: this arises with citta rooted in attachment: lobhamulacitta. This is always accompanied by ignorance, moha. It is most helpful to know this. Ignorance of what is wholesome, ignorance of akusala. Dispassion is the cetasika alobha, and this arises with each kusala citta. There is always a degree of detachment with each kusala citta. Kusala citta is also accompanied by adosa, non-aversion or kindness. And it may or may not be accompanied by pa~n~naa. We read about indolence: this represents the akusala cetasikas sloth and torpor: thiina and middha. When they are present there is unwieldiness of mind, they are the opposites of right effort. We read about exertion or effort: the four right efforts that are actually the effort of the eightfold Path. When there is a moment of satipatthana there is also right effort: so that unarisen akusala does not arise, so that arisen akusala is overcome, so that unarisen kusala is aroused, so that arisen kusala is maintained and developed. Satipatthana is the condition for the guarding of the sense-doors. Learning more about the different realities of our daily life can help us to develop understanding of their characteristics when they appear. It is essential to know the difference between what is kusala and akusala, what is dispassion and what is passion. They should be realized as conditioned namas that are anatta. They arise because of their appropriate conditions. This sutta, as so many suttas, deals actually with sati and the absence of sati. When we learn the difference between such moments satipatthana can be developed. Gotamid did not mere listen to this Discourse, she was mindful and developed right understanding of all realities that appeared right there and then. Otherwise she could not have become an arahat. For us, it is like this: we learn about citta, cetasika and rupa and partly we can verify them in our life, but, this does not mean that we have clear understanding of their characteristics. When we once in the future attain enlightenment we shall know: the truth that is directly realized now is in complete conformity with all that is contained in the Tipitaka. All doubts are gone. We can then exclaim with full conviction: this is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction! Nina. 30639 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: speech intimation, 1 speech intimation, 1 Our intentions are not only communicated by gestures, but also by speech. Speech intimation (vacíviññatti) is a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. The ³Dhammasangani² ( Ch II, § 637) states: What is that rúpa which is intimation by language (vacíviññatti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rúpa which constitutes intimation by language. When someone¹s intention is intimated through speech it is then intelligible to others. The meaning of what is intimated is known after reflection about it, thus, it is cognizable through the mind-door. Speech intimation itself does not know anything, it is rúpa. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 62) gives the following definition of speech intimation [3] : Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter [4] . Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element.... The proximate cause of bodily intimation is the element of wind or motion which is produced by citta, whereas the proximate cause of speech intimation is the element of earth or solidity which is produced by citta. According to the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta. Footnotes: 3. See Dhammasangani Ch II, 636, 637, and also Atthasåliní I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 86,87, and II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 324. 4. According to the Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the ³Paramattha Mañjúså² (452): ³The function (knocking together) of the vocal apparatus (clung to matter)². *** Nina 30640 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening. Hi Howard, op 25-02-2004 20:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I agree, Nina, that this is conditioned by listening. But is that > *all* that conditions this? (It's about all that I hear on this list! ;-) > Oh, and one more thing: As regards listening, why would there not be a > "self" who wants to do that constructive thing as well? N: Certainly also listening is bound to be done by a self. Whatever we do can be done with wrong view so long as we are not a sotapanna. I am glad you dig this up. What else can be done and how, is a big question. Association with the right friend in the Dhamma, we read in the suttas. I will not give you an orthodox answer today, you have heard about the right conditions as explained in the suttas often enough. How do we know for sure who is the right friend? We can only verify for ourselves whether he/she has helped us to have more understanding of dhammas in daily life (it always has to be daily life). Has the right friend helped us to have a tiny bit less clinging to the self, is what he/she teaches in conformity with the Tipitaka or contrary to it? Did he/she help us to perform more kusala in life. We can only answer this for ourselves, personal decisions have to be taken. I do not believe that arguing is useful, or trying to convince someone else. I can only say how I feel about all this myself. It is a gain to learn what exactly one is ignorant of, namely, of the realities occurring in daily life. And it is a gain to at least *know* when we cling to an underlying notion of self, no matter what we do, even when we perform kusala. As A. Sujin recently said, don't we perform it for our own sake? I had to stop and think about that. I recently quoted this from a tape: You may think, also other religions teach this, there is nothing special here. I believe this saying has a deep meaning. Other people can tell me do this or that, but I cannot do good on command, it has to come from within. It is understanding above all that helps to be just a little more detached from *me* and that can inspire to help others, even when I formerly was always inclined to say: not now, it is not convenient now. This is only a small matter, but I am learning from the events of my life even though it is at a very slow pace. Each stay in Thailand gives me a little push. Listening. This includes studying the Tipitaka and Commentaries. Asking questions about knotty points. It is not enough to read one sutta or a few suttas, we have to study many, so that we can make cross references. We should study what is said about the practice, about jhana and vipassana. We have to consider: what is the purpose of study and of meditation. I think: less ignorance, less clinging to self. More understanding of the present moment. If study and practice do not lead to this, they are pointless. At the same time I know that a result soon should not be expected. Practice according to what we learnt is another condition. The practice, as I see it, has to be in conformity with the Tipitaka. We have to be on the look out for lobha that wants to have fast results and looks for a short cut to reach the goal. This is an enormous hindrance as I see it. I am grateful to all good friends who point out to me my failures! I am less inclined now to wait for the arising of sati and pa~n~naa, expecting something to happen. My life rolls on by conditions and I am learning to live more by the moment. I do whatever is at hand. You said that we all select those parts of the scriptures we like. This cannot be avoided, it is all very personal. Take the Abhidhamma. When I came to A. Sujin's house for the first time she taught me about nama and rupa, about Abhidhamma, and it clicked. Just accumulations, I think from past lives. Icaro had the same experience. Others are not taken to the Abhidhamma, this is understandable. It was most helpful for me to learn that the Abhidhamma is not just words and terms, but that it deals with daily life. Now some more chatting about listening. In Bgk Jon told me that he listens each day forty minutes to a Dhamma CD during his walk. That is a good example for me, I should listen more. A. Sujin said, when you listen to the Dhamma you think more of the Dhamma instead of thinking about other things. Very practical. In Bgk I had a full program: in addition to the sessions, there were the radio programs, early morning, and in the evening. The Thai sessions had always special subjects: sutta readings and discussions. On Sunday there is always one hour about Vinaya. From 4-6 there is special study with Pali, subtle points of the teachings such as "objects that are not so classified" (avattabbamarammana). I listen now to my 19 hours of tapes I made. Hopefully I can put some order in them and write something. Nina. 30641 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, defilements. Hi Philip, op 25-02-2004 07:41 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: I begin to learn how to > see beyond all my conceptual baggage to absolute realities. In my > case, it will mean consciously using certain times of the day - for > example when I'm sitting on the train or walking home or walking down > the corridor toward the classroom where I teach English - to do so. > This will represent nothing more than a beginner's first steps. Sorry > for misrepresenting your books! N: You do not misrepresent anything. I think it can come naturally that you think over what you read. Just reading is not enough, we also have to deeply consider what we read, in daily life. PH: I wonder how I should take this sentence from the preface to > ABL: "While we are studying the different names and rupas and while > we are pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of rupa > and nama appearing at that moment." I took that as a kind of > exericise, to be consciously aware of rupa and nama when I find > myself pondering things, which I invariably do during my train ride > to and from work. N: Now I would write This more carefully: I would add: slowly, slowly so!!! It is sati and pa~n~naa, *if* they arise. But we cannot have any expectations, that is attachment and it hinders sati. Thus, to be consciously aware could be inspired by clinging, we have to check this. When we read about nama and rupa we can be reminded that they are not just theory. When they appear (to sati and pa~n~naa) understanding of their characterisrtics can be developed. But, I should add, it is quite a step from theoretical understanding to direct understanding. Moreover, we can only *think* of the three characteristics so long as nama is not realized as nama and rupa as rupa by insight, direct understanding. You were pondering on defilements. The Pali term kilesa is quite strong: impurity, stain. There are different levels of them: the coarse level: akusala to the degree of evil deeds. the medium level: akusala cittas the subtle level: the latent tendencies that do not arise, but that are powerful since they can give rise to akusala citta. They lie dormant in each citta like microbes infesting the body. They can only be eradicated by the supramundane cittas that attain enlightenment. For me and my friends it is normal to speak about our akusala, akusala is so common and we all have it. I find that I learn from examples of akusala in daily life, both of myself and of others, they are a reminder. It is good to discuss what you read, otherwise there can be misunderstandings about what I wrote. So, not such a good idea to temporarily become a lurker!!! One month, taihen desu ne. Remember, it is not the amount of reading that matters, but more: in how far do you carefully consider what you read. In how far have you understood it. You could meet Rob K and have discussion. His students were translating my Buddhism in Daily Life. Do not kick yourself, you do not have to answer my posts, that saves some time for reading. A suggestion: you ask what you find unclear, but then you do not have to react again to what I write. Is this a deal? Nina. 30642 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:I think we're fully agreed on all the initial points;-), so I'm skipping to the end. Thank you for answering my questions here: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Why is the earlier aim to focus? We agreed there are only paramattha dhammas, whether there is any knowledge of them or not. Why is the earlier aim not to hear, consider and begin to understand them as for the later part? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. Before The Buddha, all beings held Atta. Atta is only released at the first gateway to Nibbana. If someone is not ariyan then she or he will hold atta view however she or he is saying I do not have atta I just have anatta. If already passed through the gateway and on the path no journey is needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:When I read about a special focus and then no focus or as others sometimes write, using a self to understand non-self, it makes no sense to me. There is no self to focus in the first place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Whether you are talking like this or not paramattha dhamma is paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo exists or not paramattha dhamma is paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo lives in Taiwan or Singapore or Korea or Japan, no one is living there but only nama and rupa there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ...If there is a special focus or concentration, it seems like an idea of catching or slowing down realities again or trying to control the conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Just smile. I do not laugh. Can you slow down realities? In which way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Excellent! This is a real `poking' group, all in good friendship;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:So we agree here that the theoretical right understanding is essential.If there is the idea of atta, there will be practise with the idea of atta. We can certainly agree this understanding is the tool and the map shows the landmarks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate Sotapatti Magga Citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:OK You explained this nicely before in terms of paramattha dhammas. I think we have to be careful when we say `some choose to become...'. It all depends on conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Still there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >May you feel ease and peace and practise mahasatipatthana and achieve something right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:That's it.....sati sampajanna now...no need to wait for a special time or special focus and wasting time not understanding the present realities arising and falling away as we speak. You mentioned in Sensing Dhammas (3)that `his concentrated mind stays for a while' when really, I don't believe any citta or cetasika stays at all, falling away as soon as it has arisen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you showing up that you have arrived at the milestone called Bhanga Nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for your other clarification in the other post which I understood. I was just being dense the first time, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ease. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You asked if I am `Mahayana';-) Please let me know why you ask. I'm intrigued. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I asked because someone in your list once clearly mentioned that you are Mahayana. And there are messages that are not with Theravada teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ..Actually, I just read the Pali canon a little. I was brought up strictly as a Christian, but I became very interested in the Buddha's teachings when I was about 20. My turn to ask a personal question:-) Where do you live, Htoo? (Just a continent or country if you don't wish to say exactly). Also, I'd be very honoured if you'd share a photo in our album. If you need help, there are many willing hands to assist with this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To grasp the idea necessary for realization of realities, learning all Pali language will be futile but a little is sufficed. But necessary words need to be learned in detail. There are many shifts. Someone was a Moslem but later becomes a Christian. Christian to Buddhism, Moslem to Buddhism, Christian to Moslem, Buddhism to Christian and so on. As you are just about to be on the right path you should not think that there is 'you'. You should not think that this is mine this is my turn etc etc. This is my real kindness. Please do not attach to anything. All the same, there is no 'me' no 'Htoo'. Just a citta arises and immediately falls away. Due to that citta, cittaja rupa arises at the same time of arising of that citta. That cittaja rupa is the actions of this typing. Arising of these words has conditions. Nothing arises without any condition. There is no country and there is no continent but just vanna, sadda, gandha, rasa, pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo etc etc. When is your next DSG meeting? How long will it be? How many will be attending? What are the activities at the meeting? How much is a day stay at hotels there where the meeting will be? I will be looking forward to hearing from you, Sarah. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Metta and appreciation again with your good responses to all the `poking';-)I enjoy these discussions a lot - no need to quote or explain terms or texts;-) Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you really see Anatta. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30643 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:47am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /PATTHANA1.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : Patthana ( Introduction ) by Htoo You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/PATTHANA1.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30644 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear all Very good...but it's only scratch the surface of these ponderous book! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > File : /PATTHANA1.doc > Uploaded by : htootintnaing > Description : Patthana ( Introduction ) by Htoo > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/PATTHANA1.doc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Let us wait for more to come! Mettaya, Ícaro 30645 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/26/04 1:43:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 25-02-2004 20:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I agree, Nina, that this is conditioned by listening. But is that > >*all* that conditions this? (It's about all that I hear on this list! ;-) > >Oh, and one more thing: As regards listening, why would there not be a > >"self" who wants to do that constructive thing as well? > N: Certainly also listening is bound to be done by a self. Whatever we do > can be done with wrong view so long as we are not a sotapanna. > I am glad you dig this up. What else can be done and how, is a big question. > ========================== Thank you Nina for taking the time and making the effort to give such a detailed reply. Very kind of you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Andy and Howard, ... > "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the > immaterial > realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which > presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) > > N: And there is another reason. When born in planes where there is no rupa > he cannot learn to distinguish nama from rupa, and continue on with the > subsequent stages of insight. > Nina. Good point, Nina. Thanks for mentioning it. Accumulated and deeply-seated ignorance and wrong view of rupas caannot be eradicted if there are no rupas to condition the arising of that ignorance and wrong view in that lifetime; and as long as that accumulated ingorance and wrong view is there latent in the consciousness (anusaya), it will be an obstacle to enlightenment. This again shows the importance of anusaya. For similar reasons, the development of the path in this lifetime involves being true to oneself about the mass of kilesa that we have (as Philip has been talking about); any idea that the path would be better developed by having more kusala and less akusala first misses the point, I think (but of course we all have the tendency to think like that -- maybe quite a lot of the time). Jon 30647 From: Andy Wilson Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:27pm Subject: bhavanga-calana all, my private reading of AS has taken me to #4, the compendium of the cognitive process, and I would like to ask a semi-technical question. I apologise in advance because I suspect this question will be answered by the text at some point, but I am curious (impatient ;-) now to know; when the text speaks of 'vibrating bhavanga' / bhavanga-calana, what does it mean to use the metaphor of 'vibration'. is the metaphor extended (fast vibration / slow vibration, strong vibration / weak vibration)? what does it mean? how is it useful? I think the question is important to me because I believe answering it will tell me something more fundamental about the nature of citta as such, rather than something specific to bhavanga(?) I apologise for asking what must seem like an odd question, but I can't find a satisfactory answer anywhere else. metta andy 30648 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:33pm Subject: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Jhana and insight hand-in-hand > > > >       There's    no jhana > >    for one with    no discernment, > >                no discernment > >    for one with    no jhana. > >    But one with    both jhana > >                & discernment: > > he's on the verge > >       of Unbinding. > > >> -- Dhp 372 > > ..... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Help! Jhana attack! I have a few of your messages put aside which I plan to get back on when I've found a few of my own bright lights (maybe after the weekend, unless others come to my rescue first;-). Also Jack and one or two others - pls be patient if I'm slow. Metta, Sarah ====== 30649 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > P: Grateful is one way to put it. Feverish is another. I have been > feeling devoted day in, day out to deepening my Buddhist practice but > coming across the ideas in the Abhidhamma seem to have turned my > enthusiasm into a kind of fever - . As I mentionned before, I > am so attached to all my dhamma binders, and during the day often go > and pick one up, and glance in it, and put it down, and pick up > another one. Throughout the day, again and again. > ,snip.> > Does anyone have any advice about how to handle this craving? I am > thinking about the Factors of Awakening, which contain both calming > and stirring factors. Obviously I need to be cultivating equanimity > and concentration now. That's another thing. My morning meditation > has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the > first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my > sitting time for awhile. > ======== Dear Philip, Do you know the story of Bahiya: He had thought he was enlightened until a deva told him he was only deluded. He then had greay urgency to see the Buddha and travelled without stopping across India. ""Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by the devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, on arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." He couldn't wait until the right time to see the Buddha. But the Buddha knew he was over-excited and so refused to answer till the third time Bahiya spoke. The Buddha sopke his short sutta and Bahiya becmae an arahant. The words of the Buddha were the condition for insight of the difference between nama and rupa to arise and so deeper stages of insight could then occur. The study of Dhamma - in general terms- is not akusala, but, as you see, sometimes akusala moments come in. We could try to stop any akusala, or look for different objects that we believe don't condition craving: however,I think what is most freeing is learning to see dhammas just as they are here and now. Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta. The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine things in such a way that while he is examining them his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering or birth, ageing and death in the future." In the sutta Mahakaccana explains what the Buddha meant by "agitation due to clinging" (upadaya paritassana). " Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern."" http://www.abhidhamma.org/maha_kaccana.htm#ch5 Do we feel agitated when vinnana (consciousness) changes form what we think it should be? Or do we see that vinnana is not self and so develop detachment from the idea of a self who is controlling vinnana. Before the buddha taught about conditionality and anatta, sages understood that objects through the sense doors condition craving. And so they developed jhanas, very difficult to do so, so that all contact at the 5 doors ceased. But the path of the Buddha not the stopping of contact, rather it is insight into the six doors. So I think we become less concerned about what the object is, and whether there is akusala or akusala, and the focus changes to the anattaness and conditionality of the moment. Then every moment is so utterly perfect and instructive. This doesn't rule out developing samatha or other ways of kusala, but I think it is helpful to see the difference. RobertK 30650 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. Hi all, I read through the passages § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. And here is some reflection: These three passages has one common theme; namely, the theme on jhana. I understand that jhana leads to dispassion, not passion because to enter and remain in jhana one has to withdraw from sensuality, from unskillful mental qualities. One has to withdraw from passion in the first place. And the ending of effluents, the root of passion, also depends on jhanas. In attaining jhanas, one develops wholesome/skillful qualities that are more and more refined. Equanimity is also developed in jhana. Attaining jhanas leads to dispassion, and I see it as the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. Comments on these three passages from both meditators and non- meditators are welcome. Metta, Victor 30651 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Back to the cushion: was Link to book on Paramis Hi Philip, Glad you decided to keep posting. I see you are undecided as to whether it is study or formal practice that leads to enlightenment – choosing to have a bet each way. We can't let you off that easily. :-) May I ask; is your sitting meditation aimed at jhana or at satipatthana? There is a lot of confusion over the meaning of those terms. LSD, TM, religious ecstasy, self-hypnosis; all offer mind boggling experiences complete with coloured lights, peace, goodwill, oneness with the universe, and so on. Needless to say, none of those practices was taught by the Buddha -- jhana and vipassana are paths of wisdom, not of mere technique. A jhana practitioner is one who, first and foremost, knows kusala citta from akusala citta. He also knows how to avoid and suppress akusala cittas long enough to intensify the rapture, equanimity and other mental factors that accompany kusala cittas. Many people claim to have attained jhana and many others are in doubt as to whether they have or they haven't. In my opinion, there can be no doubt as to whether a particular experience was jhana absorption or whether it was a simple trick of the mind. In the former case, the practitioner will be a modest, reclusive, `master of morality' who never confuses lust with love, hate with righteousness, ignorance with bliss, and so on. (He is a unique personality.) In the second case, the person involved could be any of the common personality types we meet every day. Similarly, satipatthana is a path of right understanding, not just of morality and, certainly, not of techniques. Unlike jhana, satipatthana knows paramattha dhammas. There is no preference for kusala dhammas over akusala – any dhammas that arise in the present moment are suitable. If you are sitting, on a cushion, thinking that `right conditions' have to be put in place before right understanding can occur, then you are not practising satipatthana. Fortunately, even this wrong practice can be seen with right understanding. So, in a moment immediately following your wrong thinking, you might see, with right understanding, "This is wrong understanding," or, "This is wrong effort." But why should we wait for a subsequent mind moment; the only moment we ever really have is right now. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > My morning meditation > has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the > first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my > sitting time for awhile. > > 30652 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Sarah (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Jhana and insight hand-in-hand > > > > > > >       There's    no jhana > > >    for one with    no discernment, > > >                no discernment > > >    for one with    no jhana. > > >    But one with    both jhana > > >                & discernment: > > > he's on the verge > > >       of Unbinding. > > > >> -- Dhp 372 > > > > ..... > AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Help! Jhana attack! LOL! Don't worry, I don't think those symbols are soldiers. Actually, to me, they kind of look like little Eiffel Towers! ;-)) How cultural! ;-) I absolutely loved the list that Howard gave and the reasons he gave it. Honestly, I have thought a few times of doing something similar, but on a grander scale. I was thinking about compiling a list of every sutta quote in the entire Pali Canon which mentions the value of meditation and posting the entire list anytime anyone speaks against meditation. I'm sure it would be pages and pages long! Hehehe…But I would probably get moderated; hey, so what, wouldn't be the first time! ;-) I hope that Howard reposts his list every time you or someone else speaks against meditation in a generalized fashion. Hopefully, at some point, you (and they) will get a clue and stop preaching against what the Buddha taught! > > I have a few of your messages put aside which I plan to get back on when > I've found a few of my own bright lights If you are hoping to find the 'light of your mind' that Howard and I have been discussing, you will need to begin to practice Jhana meditation. This type of light can't be bought at Home Depot! ;-). Did you forget already what Jhana is? Do I need to repost Howard's entire list again?? ;-)) (Howard---I think Sarah needs another reminder ;-). (maybe after the weekend, unless > others come to my rescue first;-). Also Jack and one or two others - pls > be patient if I'm slow. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Metta, James 30653 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. James: Okay, since you really want to know: Thanissaro: Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. James: Yes, the Buddha did separate these two types of practices. I can't believe that Thanissaro, who has translated a lot of the Pali Canon, has made such a ridiculous statement. I have given one sutta quote already and Jon gave another. I'm sure that I could come up with even more if I looked but I think just one is sufficient-- since Thanissaro uses the word `never' just one example proves his whole case wrong (BTW, `Allness' statements are usually wrong.) Thanissaro: But if you look in the Canon where the Buddha describes jhana, that's not the kind of state he's talking about. To be in jhana is to be absorbed, very pleasurably, in the sense of the whole body altogether. James: This describes only the first and second jhanas, not the third and fourth or the arupa jhanas (immaterial jhanas). Thanissaro seems to want to oversimplify jhana for the sake of making a point. Thanissaro: To see how Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration help each other in the practice, we can look at the three stages of mindfulness practice given in the Foundations of Mindfulness Sutta. Take the body as an example. The first stage is to keep focused on the body in and of itself… James: Thanissaro has jumped from describing jhana to describing vipassana (satipatthana) as if they are the same thing. This is faulty logic and it is using a type of argumentation called `Bait and Switch'. The Buddha gave different suttas on the two types of practices because they are different. If they weren't different he would have only given one type of sutta. Thanissaro: We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. James: I find this to be another over-simplification. Mindfulness, or sati, doesn't mean just to remember something. It includes many other qualities of mind. As the Buddha described it: "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world." So, `mindfulness' includes ardency, alertness, remembrance, and wholesomeness. Thanissaro: To do this, you have to learn about how things arise and pass away in the mind, not by simply watching them, but by actually getting involved in their arising and passing away. James: What?? Allowing oneself to get involved in the drama of the mind is not the purpose of mindfulness meditation. At this point in his discourse he should be emphasizing the role of equanimity. I am not sure if he realizes what he writes here because just one paragraph later he writes: Thanissaro: Suppose that anger is interfering with your concentration. Instead of getting involved in the anger, you try simply to be aware of when it's there and when it's not. You look at the anger as an event in and of itself -- as it comes, as it goes. James: Whew! That was close! Now he is back to teaching what the Buddha taught; unfortunately, he veers off again right after this: Thanissaro: But you don't stop there. The next step -- as you're still working at focusing on the breath -- is recognizing how anger can be made to go away. Sometimes simply watching it is enough to make it go away; sometimes it's not, and you have to deal with it in other ways, such as arguing with the reasoning behind the anger or reminding yourself of the drawbacks of anger. James: The Buddha didn't teach to `argue' with the reasoning behind the anger. Where is that going to get a person? I wrote a post to this group before about this subject and what the Buddha taught and `arguing' with the anger isn't one of the courses of action to use: The Buddha taught five methods which one can use to stop unwholesome thoughts after they arise. And the Buddha realized that these thoughts can be very powerful so he gave successive `treatments' to use. If the first one doesn't work, use the next one and so forth until the negative thought(s) (and accompanying emotion) is gone: 1. Reflect on a different object which is wholesome 2. Consider the disadvantages of the thought 3. Don't pay attention to the thought 4. Reflect on the removal of the source of the thought 5. Mentally beat down the thought The sutta and commentary notes can be found at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel021.html You will notice that nowhere in this list does the Buddha recommend to get emotionally involved with the unwholesome thought. Equanimity and detachedness should be present at all times, even when `beating down the thought'. Thanissaro: One technique I like to use -- when anger is present and you're in a situation where you don't immediately have to react to people -- is simply to ask yourself in a good-natured way, "Okay, why are you angry?" Listen to what the mind has to say. James: Why is Thanissaro now talking so much about anger? What is the focus of this article? So far he has jumped from jhana, to mindfulness, to anger. If he was in my English class and he submitted this article to me, I would give it back to him and have him rewrite it-- with a clearer and more focused thesis. Thanissaro: (1.) And it's the same with the mind: unless you actually try to make something out of the mind, try to get a mental state going and keep it going, you don't really know your own mind….(2). The same holds true with the mind. Of course, you could learn something about the mind by trying to get it into any sort of a state, but for the purpose of developing really penetrating insight, a state of stable, balanced, mindful concentration is the best kind of soufflé or pot you want to make with the mind….(3.) It's the same with the mind. When it has been well fed with the rapture and ease coming from concentration, it's ready to learn. It can accept your criticisms without feeling threatened or abused. James: This is getting redundant and silly. Thanissaro seems to be comparing everything but the kitchen sink to the mind. Wait! A kitchen sink can contain dirty dishes which it can then make clean- It's the same with the mind! ;-)) Thanissaro: So it's important to realize that there are these three stages to mindfulness practice, and to understand the role that deliberate concentration practice plays in taking you through the first two. James: I completely missed where he enumerated these three stages and, by this point, I (as a reader) am not going to make the effort to go back and try and figure it out. He has lost me. Metta, James 30654 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/26/04 11:35:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Jhana and insight hand-in-hand > > > > > >>      There's    no jhana > >>   for one with    no discernment, > >>               no discernment > >>   for one with    no jhana. > >>   But one with    both jhana > >>               &discernment: > >>he's on the verge > >>      of Unbinding. > >>>>-- Dhp 372 > >> > ..... > AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Help! Jhana attack! > > I have a few of your messages put aside which I plan to get back on when > I've found a few of my own bright lights (maybe after the weekend, unless > others come to my rescue first;-). Also Jack and one or two others - pls > be patient if I'm slow. > > Metta, > > Sarah ========================= LOL!! That's really very funny, Sarah! ;-)) I do have a serious concern, though: The upper-case A's topped by circumflexes do occur as you show them in my post on the website, but that post of mine with all the quoted pro-meditation propaganda ;-) came back to my in-box from Yahoo in quite pristine form, with spaces where the A's appear. Inasmuch as a couple of other posts of mine not so long ago appeared with hieroglyphics inserted, I'm concerned whether this is how my post appeared to others who don't read the posts at the website but receive them as e-mail. With triple-A metta ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30655 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi RobertK, Regarding Bahiya Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10a.html "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? Regards, Swee Boon 30656 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. The development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents is different from that leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana). And the development of concentration leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana) is not a pre-requisite for the development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents. Regards, Swee Boon 30657 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 1:40:35 AM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Jack: I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. James: Okay, since you really want to know: James, thanks for the comments. I agree with Thanissaro. Since he presents his position far better than I could defend it, I will let it stand, at least for now. I think with a closer reading of the article by you many of your criticisms would fall away. But, maybe I would agree with you after a closer reading by me. If I have time later today, I will read both Thanissaro and your comments again. I leave tomorrow for a short retreat. Be well. Jack 30658 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:05am Subject: Concepts *and* ultimate realities Hello all Thank you for the responses to my mini-drama post yesterday. No time to read them tonight. Well, I could, but I picked up on Nina's suggestion not to comment on her posts. (It's a deal, Nina:) ) That was an enormously helpful suggestion, because indeed one of traps I create for myself is feeling that I must respond to everyone who is kind enough to post, and since just saying "thanks" doesn't seem enough, I launch into comments, which brings out a ditthupadana mess. Reflexively, I start defending my views, before I even have time to listen carefully to the words I've received. "Thanks for what you said, and here's what *I* think." This is the habitual behaviour I've gotten into at other discussion groups in the past, but I think I'll try something new. I think I'll print out all the responses I receive and read them off-line, and comment the following day, or later. Had a great day, though sick. Just floated on through it, still on a kind of abhidhamma high (for the time being, of course.) I think what grabs me so much about it is that for the last 2 years or so, since I started practicing seriously, I've developed a practiced based largely in conceptual realities. I'm good at it, to tell the truth. I do things with Brahma-Viharas that would make a snake smile. And I've known enough to know that it wasn't getting at ultimate realities, but was a way for me to generate a positive energy with others in my daily life, and interaction with people, especially strangers, is what it's all about for me. To get at ultimate realities I have had a wobbly grasp of dukkha, annata and annica, but reading about the abhidhamma suddenly laid them out a road map to understanding them deeply. (AJahn Brahmavasaro called one of his dhamma talks "A travelogue to the Jhanas" and I would say that the abdhidhamma is like a travelogue to annata, annica and dukkha. What has attracted me to the Theravada side of the tracks is that the Buddha's teaching is so explicit, and based on logical examination of experience. I hadn't yet found the explicit expression of annata, annica and dukkha and I think I have in the abhidhamma. As I've read a few times already, the flavour of the abhidhamma is not- self, and that's a flavour I need to taste more of. However, my exitement about it doesn't mean abandoning my conceptual practice. Maybe because I'm a bit of a writer, concepts come naturally to me, and I think we should go with what comes naturally, if it comes naturally from a true place. It seems to me that the abhidhamma will give a foundation of practice towards ultimate realities to be on while I practice the conceptual practice of Brahma-Viharas. If I understand correctly from what I've read so far, in the ahidhamma Metta and other sublime minds arise as a result of conditions, presumbaly along with the uprooting of defilements. The flowers blooming naturally when the weeds have been cleared out to give them the conditions they need to bloom, perhaps. I like that. It's logical, and involves a certain amount of rigour, which I want in my practice. On the other hand - well, in another hand, I believe, rightly or wrongly, in consciously cultivating Buddha's immeasurables minds. These two aspects, conditioned arising, and intentional cultivation, probably seem mutually exclusive, and they may be. I guess I'll find out. I see in the Useful Posts section that there is a section "Concepts vs. Ultimate Realities." For the time being, I will be practicing towards concepts *and* ultimate realities. We'll see what happens with it. As I wrote before, I have a feeling I will move gradually towards a more non-conceptual practice. I'm keen on conceptual practice not only because I have a knack for it. I also believe it's important to make the BUddha's teaching accessible to newcomers, and as thrilled as I am by the abhidhamma, it could hardly be called accessible. In the post that caught my eye, Jon (thank you!) wrote that study of sutta could only be done at a deep level by one who has already grasped the abhidhamma. I would add a prior stage, and say that before coming to the abdhidhamma, people must come across the Buddha's teaching in a user-friendly form. I think the Brahma-Viharas are the most user friendly of them all. And I know from personal experience how helpful they are. They've done wonders for me. I would like to relate to Robert K, whom I hear lives in Japan, and to you all, how the Brahma-Viharas have helped me to overcome the hostility and sadness that often arose in my about being a visible minority in Japan. As you all know, it may very well be the most homogenous nation on earth, and xenophobic, in the literal "fear of outsiders" sense of the word, rather than the racist one, and for someone like me who had formed idealistic attachments to community in the years before I came to Japan, this was hard. I used to use alcohol to break down barriers, but now they're gone thanks to Brahma-Viharas. I won't lay the BVs on you here because I have another group devoted to them, but I'm sure they'll pop up. Anyways, just wanted to let you know that I'm interested in finding out to what degree it's possible to practice towards both conceptual and ultimate realites. Of course, I'll be reading that section of the Useful Posts. With Metta, Philip 30659 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Howard I think this is a very brillaint sutta Borrowing this from RobK previous email on dependent origination. (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote I hope this answer your question on "who makes effort?" Ken O 30660 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/27/04 9:36:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Group, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? > There is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now. There is the > development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads to > the attainment of knowledge &vision. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads to mindfulness & > alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when > developed &pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now? There is the > case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from > unskillful qualities -- enters &remains in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought &evaluation, he > enters &remains in the second jhana: rapture &pleasure born of > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he > remains in equanimity, mindful &alert, and physically sensitive to > pleasure. He enters &remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble > Ones declare, 'Equanimous &mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' > With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the earlier > disappearance of elation &distress -- he enters &remains in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision? There is the > case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved > on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] > is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an > awareness open &unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is > the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads > to the attainment of knowledge &vision. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to mindfulness &alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, > known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, > known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to > him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This > is the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, > leads to mindfulness &alertness. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where > a monk remains focused on arising &falling away with reference to the > five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its > passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its > passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such > their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such > its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, > when developed &pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration. > > > The development of concentration leading to the ending of the > effluents is different from that leading to a pleasant abiding here > and now (jhana). > > And the development of concentration leading to a pleasant abiding > here and now (jhana) is not a pre-requisite for the development of > concentration leading to the ending of the effluents. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ============================ # 1 These are all meditative pursuits. # 2 This sutta is trotted out whenever someone wants to "prove" the alleged relative lack of usefulness of jhanas for the ultimate goal. But it is a single sutta out of many. There are also *many* suttas which demonstrate how the jhanas serve to help make the mind a fit tool for investigation of dhammas, and there are suttas that even define "right concentration" as the first four jhanas. (And there are yet others that define it differently.) In some ways the Tipitaka is like the Jewish and Christian bibles in that if one is desirous enough its posible to justify from material found there almost whatever one's fondest position might be. # 3 The point is that the Buddha repeatedly taught his followers the virtues of meditating, and he gave various emphases, various reasons, and various definitions pertaining to it in various contexts. But he never advised against meditating. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30661 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear Icaro, I aim to discuss. I know this is very active group and there are many experts in this group. I just touch area by area so that dhamma is touch everywhere. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear all > > Very good...but it's only scratch the surface of these ponderous > book! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > File : /PATTHANA1.doc > > Uploaded by : htootintnaing > > Description : Patthana ( Introduction ) by Htoo > > > > You can access this file at the URL > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/PATTHANA1.doc > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Let us wait for more to come! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 30662 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/27/04 10:16:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I think this is a very brillaint sutta > > Borrowing this from RobK previous email on dependent origination. > (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this > case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, > contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > I hope this answer your question on "who makes effort?" > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken?? You're saying that I, that's me - not someone else - asked who makes effort? Do you think that I've given any indication that I believe in an agent who does things? A self? An actor? Truly amazing! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30663 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Howard I know. But your suttas are quoted like someone try etc... the questions is, is the sutta talking about someone make effort or conditions. Ken O 30664 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Howard, Good. In future, to justify the merits of meditation, wouldn't this sutta which I quoted would be of far much value than any of the suttas which you quoted? Jhana attainments is just one aspect of meditation. Although it is encouraged by the Buddha, it is not a requirement for the development of concentation leading to the ending of the effluents. Regards, Swee Boon 30665 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/27/04 11:28:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I know. But your suttas are quoted like someone try etc... the > questions is, is the sutta talking about someone make effort or > conditions. > > Ken O > ========================== Well, in any case, I had not asked a question about "who" makes an effort. It is not a qustion that I would ask, because it contains a presupposition that I don't accept. The Buddha used conventional speech - as we all do - as you have just done. After all, none of us has the month available that is required to convey the content of a single sentence using close-to-literal speech. It would take nearly a month just to think up and utter all the disclaimer clauses needed, and even then, not all conventionality could be removed. If one is unhappy with the format of the suttas, unfortunately there isn't much that can be done about that. The Buddha isn't around to grant permission to make changes in them. Anyway, he *was* a superb teacher, and he presumably knew what was a good way to present the Dhamma. Also he didn't teach his followers to do nothing but listen to him and to think about his words. He taught them to practice the Dhamma as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30666 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:25am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. Hi all, I forget to include the link to the passages § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion I would also like to point out some qualities as I see them present in these passages that leads to dispassion: Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation -- internal assurance. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress -- he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. 'I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the first jhana.' [On attaining the fourth level of jhana] there remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable & luminous. "He discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. (Similarly with the remaining formless states.)' He neither fabricates nor wills for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, he is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I read through the passages § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. And here is some > reflection: > > These three passages has one common theme; namely, the theme on > jhana. I understand that jhana leads to dispassion, not passion > because to enter and remain in jhana one has to withdraw from > sensuality, from unskillful mental qualities. One has to withdraw > from passion in the first place. And the ending of effluents, the > root of passion, also depends on jhanas. In attaining jhanas, one > develops wholesome/skillful qualities that are more and more > refined. Equanimity is also developed in jhana. Attaining jhanas > leads to dispassion, and I see it as the Vinaya, the Teacher's > instruction. > > Comments on these three passages from both meditators and non- > meditators are welcome. > > Metta, > Victor 30667 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/27/04 11:34:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Good. In future, to justify the merits of meditation, wouldn't this > sutta which I quoted would be of far much value than any of the suttas > which you quoted? > > Jhana attainments is just one aspect of meditation. Although it is > encouraged by the Buddha, it is not a requirement for the development > of concentation leading to the ending of the effluents. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > =========================== As I said, there are many wonderful suttas. This is a very good one. So, for example, are those that define "right concentration" as the first 4 jhanas. We can each favor whatever we favor - as our prejudices take us! ;-) Or, of course, we can let go of thinking we really know what's what, accept all that we can learn from in the Dhamma, and engage in any of the practices the Buddha taught, confident that the Buddha and his Dhamma are worthy of trust. I, personally, feel no compusion to attain jhanas. If my meditative practice and other training leads me into them, wonderful. If it leads me into an in-tandem development of samatha and vipassana, superb! Whatever. I can't control or predict the outcome. But I can engage in practice as best I understand the Buddha's teachings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: speech intimation 2 speech intimation 2 Bodily intimation and speech intimation are rúpas conditioned by citta, but these two kinds of rúpa are not rúpas with their own distinct nature and characteristic. Rúpas can be classified as sabhåva rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature (sa meaning: with, bhåva meaning: nature) and asabhåva rúpas, rúpas without their own distinct nature. The eight inseparable rúpas are sabhåva rúpas, they each have their own distinct nature and characteristic. As we have seen, bodily intimation and speech intimation are a ³certain, unique change² in the great elements, they are a quality of rúpa, namely: changeability of rúpa. Thus, they are asabhåva rúpas. The eight inseparable rúpas on which the two kinds of intimation depend are produced by citta, according to the ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 337). In the case of bodily intimation the element of wind and in the case of speech intimation the element of earth plays its specific role. Do we realize whether speech intimation is conditioned by kusala citta or by akusala citta? We may know in theory that we speak with akusala citta when our objective is not wholesomeness, such as generosity, kindness or the development of understanding of the Buddha¹s teachings, but do we realize this at the moments we speak? Even when akusala kamma through speech, such as lying or slandering, is not committed, we may still speak with akusala citta. We may find out that often our speech is motivated by akusala citta. We speak with cittas rooted in attachment when we want to gain something, when we want to be liked or admired by others. With this objective we may even tell ³tales² about others, ridicule or denigrate them. We are attached to speech and we often chatter just in order to keep the conversation going. We tend to feel lonely when there is silence. Usually we do not consider whether what we say is beneficial or not. We have to speak to others when we organize our work in the office or at home. Do we realize whether there are at such moments kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When we lie there is the committing of akusala kamma through speech. Speech intimation is produced by kusala citta when we, for example, with generosity and kindness try to help and encourage others in speaking to them. When we speak about the Buddha¹s teachings there may be kusala cittas, but at times there also tend to be akusala cittas, for example, when we are conceited about our knowledge, or when we are attached to the people we are speaking to. Many different types of citta arise and fall away very rapidly and we may not know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. There can be mindfulness while speaking, but we may believe that this is too difficult since we have to think of what we are going to say. Thinking is a reality and it can be object of mindfulness. There are sound and hearing and they can be object of mindfulness when they appear. We are usually absorbed in the subject we want to speak about and we attach great importance to our speech. We live most of the time in the world of ³conventional truth², and we are forgetful of ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). In the ultimate sense there is no speaker, only empty phenomena, conditioned nåmas and rúpas. **** Nina. 30669 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga-calana Hi Andy, op 26-02-2004 23:27 schreef Andy Wilson op andy@l...: > > when the text speaks of 'vibrating bhavanga' / bhavanga-calana, what > does it mean to use the metaphor of 'vibration'. is the metaphor > extended (fast vibration / slow vibration, strong vibration / weak > vibration)? what does it mean? how is it useful? N: This citta is disturbed by the object that impinges but it does not experience it. It is followed by another bhavanga citta that is the last one of the stream of bhavanagas which is then broken off, so that process cittas arise. I have the Co (p. 126) here: it is explained that the bhavanga-calana is supported by the heartbase (a rupa near the heart). When a fly sits on a grain of sugar on the surface of a drum and the drum is beaten by a stick, the sugar also vibrates and the fly flies off. This is heavy reading. All these rupas arise and fall away very fast, but there is some connection between them. When there is impingement on a sense-base, somehow this kind of vibration influenecs the heartbase (successive vibrating), and thus it can be said that the bhavangacalana is disturbed, or affected by the object that is impinging and that will soon be experienced by sense-door cittas arising in a process. Nina. 30670 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis, note 27, no 2 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your helpful additions, making the link with daily life. We cannot stress this enough. Otherwise people think that it is all theory, concepts or abstract notions. op 26-02-2004 08:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > S:We have an idea of making an intention and then moving he body, but in > reality there are many conditions and factors involved in order for the > elements to be changed in such a way as to bring about bodily intimation. N: Yes, and we also learn how very fast these conditions operate. A gesture is made before we realize it. And even akusala kamma can be performed through bodily intimation: when someone gives an order to kill by a gesture. > > ..... >> N: There are only dhammas rolling on because of conditions, they are >> uninterested, they do not know anything. They are very momentary >> (kha.nika), > > S:And this is the aim of considering any part of the teachings which are > all in conformity: the understanding of the nature of the uninterested’ > dhammas rolling on. People may think that by understanding, not doing > anything special, that our worlds will collapse. As you’ve said, let them > crumble away’;-) The understanding of dhammas as anatta leads to taking > refuge in the Triple Gem, not the reverse. 30671 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro's food and rupa Dear Icaro op 26-02-2004 19:37 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > And if you don't control your eatings,lunchs, donuts, marshmallows, > Cheeseburgers,Budweisers,Heinekens, Fettucine, T-Bone > steaks,Apfelstrudels, chop shueis, Vichyssoises, fried potatoes, > Porrigdes (yummmmm), "Feijudas", chilis, tortillas, Foundes with > Gouda, Emmemnthal, Gorgonzolla, Rochefort, Camembert,Chocolates,Baked > Potatoes, macarroni, Gnocchi alla Romana, Musli, Corn flakes, Kosher > foods, milk shakes, Chicken Mcnuggets, Indonesian Ris,Pork meatballs, > curried chicken, glazed duck, marinatted pig, jerky beef, giblets in > soysauce etc, etc, etc you will become fattier also! Nina: All the world's food. Look at it. The only rupa that can be seen is colour, but what variety of colour there is. All the food on the shelves of the Super: just pure octads: the four great Elements and four more: colour, odour, flavour and nutrition. What a variety in these pure octads, amazing. This is because of different compositions of rupas. For instance, solidity, the element of earth can appear as softness or hardness, the element of heat can appear as heat or cold. Cold is still the element of heat, but it is a matter of degree. It all is a matter of degree. See, when I am cooking, it makes a lot of difference whether I put salt, and how much, or sugar, and how much. Putting the macaroni in an oven that is too hot: look at it. The colour may become black, a horrible taste and smell. When melting sugar, its solidity changes; it becomes liquid. Thus a great variety of the composition of rupas is possible. They arise and fall away very fast but we take them for very important. Imagine: Icaro enters the shop. The citta makes him move around, and he needs the vikara rupas (rupas of change) of lightness, malleability and wieldiness, so that his gait is light and supple (he has not neglected his jogging after the bootcamp). Also the groups of rupa originated from kamma, from nutrition, and from temperature are supporting the movement. Icaro lifts his hand in a greeting and beckons to the shopkeeper, and then there is bodily intimation. He then tells him what he needs and there is verbal intimation. Also when shopping there are nama and rupa. There is a great variety in the composition of rupas and there is a great variety in cittas. Lobhamulacittas are classified as eight, but there are endless shades and degrees of them, and they are combined with different cittas. Icaro, look at Dsgn (p. 254), nikkhepa kandam, hetu-gocchakam, about hundred definitions of lobha. It is very beautiful. We cannot escape nama and rupa. Nina. 30672 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg]kasina Dear Sarah, op 27-02-2004 05:33 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Hi Howard, Help! Jhana attack! N: I have no experience with jhana and I only know what I read in the suttas, co and Visuddhimagga. You remember, Sarah, that we touched on the kasina with Vince and A. Sujin? The meaning of kasina is: encompassing all. We talked about the earth kasina: we cling to earth. Table, chair, food, the cloths we buy, it is all earth. The aim of samatha is detachment from sense objects. The colour of the earth kasina should not be attractive, as the Vis. says, otherwise one clings to it. It is most important to understand and develop the jhanafactors. To know when there are the hindrances. Thus, a high degree of sati and panna are needed so that one can distinguish between attachment, lobha, and detachment, alobha. The development of jhana is not a matter of just looking at the kasina or trying to concentrate on it. If one sees a mental image it is important to realize: is there lobha or alobha? This image can be due to accumulated tendencies in former lives. It should be seen just as it is: because of conditions citta experiences it. When it has bliss as result, this enthusiasm and joy should be thoroughly investigated, otherwise one may mislead oneself all the time. Enthusiasm and joy can arise with lobha and with alobha. This can and should be investigated in daily life. Even when there is detachment it can be immediately followed by attachment, and all such moments should be known. Certain effects of the jhana developed without sati and panna may be similar to jhana developed with sati and panna. Only the person who develops jhana can find out: is there kusala citta with detachment and understanding, or is there akusala citta with attachment? I read in the Visuddhimagga about the development of special powers such as divine eye in the case of someone who has mastery of the four jhanas. He should use the fire kasina, the white kasina or the light kasina (Vis. XIII, 95 f.f.). <..it should be stopped at the level of access and extended there... It is only what is visible within the area to which the kasina has been extended that can be seen...> It is described that visible objects that are not within the focus of his fleshly eye come into the focus of his eye of knowledge. They are as if seen with the fleshly eye, and then the divine eye has arisen. They are: Vis. XIII, 100: The Vis. refers to the following sutta: M.S. no 128, Defilements (Upakkilesa sutta). This sutta also deals with the light manifestation and the appearance of visible objects. The Buddha said to Anuruddha, Nandiya and Kimbila, that formerly, when he developed jhana, the light manifestation and the appearance of visible objects disappeared because of defilements. He had to know defilements such as doubt, sloth and torpor, etc. When he had too much energy concentration fell away. He had to realize those defilements at the moment they occurred. He also had to know very precisely the jhanafactors which were to be developed: initial thought, discursive thought, etc. After he had developed jhana he attained arahatship. This implies also the development of insight. As we know, the Buddha penetrated the dependent origination while sitting under the Bodhitree. We see that a very precise knowledge of citta and cetasikas is indispensable. Also jhanacitta should be known as anatta. See the satipatthanasutta, the application of Mindfulness on citta: mahaggata citta (jhanacitta) is mentioned under citta. Thus, no matter one develops jhana or not, in the end all realities should be known as they are. Nina. 30673 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I agree with Thanissaro. Since he presents his position far better than I could defend it, I will let it stand, at least for now. James: Fine, you can agree with Thanissaro. No big deal; I don't care. But I think you should consider carefully the reasons why you agree with him about this issue. Jack: I think with a closer reading of the article by you many of your criticisms would fall away. James: I assure you- I could not read that article any closer! If I read it any closer my eyeballs would be touching the computer screen! ;-) I have read it intensely from beginning to end, many times; that is why I was able to give you such a detailed analysis. If you have specific comments, I would be willing to address those; but here you are simply casting aside all of my efforts (done on your behest) with a vague comment. Honestly, I don't appreciate that. Jack: But, maybe I would agree with you after a closer reading by me. If I have time later today, I will read both Thanissaro and your comments again. James: Okay, do that. I am not sure why you wrote this post if you haven't carefully considered what we both have written yet. Metta, James 30674 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 12:55:05 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Jack: But, maybe I would agree with you after a closer reading by me. If I have time later today, I will read both Thanissaro and your comments again. James: Okay, do that. I am not sure why you wrote this post if you haven't carefully considered what we both have written yet. Cheez. Let me restate what i tried to say. I read your comments carefully. I read Than.'s article carefully. After that, I had nothing to add. But, I will try to reread everything later today and respond back to you. jack 30675 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Good. In future, to justify the merits of meditation, wouldn't this > sutta which I quoted would be of far much value than any of the suttas > which you quoted? > > Jhana attainments is just one aspect of meditation. Although it is > encouraged by the Buddha, it is not a requirement for the development > of concentation leading to the ending of the effluents. > > Regards, > Swee Boon I think you are downplaying the importance of jhana far too much. Consider this information: "The value of the jhánas, however, extends beyond the confines of the Arahat's personal experience to testify to the spiritual efficacy of the Buddha's dispensation. The jhánas are regarded as ornamentation's of the Arahat, testimonies to the accomplishment of the spiritually perfect person and the effectiveness of the teaching he follows. A worthy monk is able to „gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhánas pertaining to the higher consciousness, blissful dwellings here and now." This ability to gain the jhánas at will is a „quality that makes a monk an elder." When accompanied by several other spiritual accomplishments it is an essential quality of „a recluse who graces recluses" and of a monk who can move unobstructed in the four directions. Having ready access to the four jhánas makes an elder dear and agreeable, respected and esteemed by his fellow monks. Facility in gaining the jhánas is one of the eight qualities of a completely inspiring monk (samantapásádika bhikkhu) perfect in all respects; it is also one of the eleven foundations of faith (saddhá pada). It is significant that in all these lists of qualities the last item is always the attainment of Arahatship, „the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom," showing that all desirable qualities in a Bhikkhu culminate in Arahatship. [6] The higher the degree of his mastery over the meditative attainments, the higher the esteem in which an Arahat monk is held and the more praiseworthy his achievement is considered. Thus the Buddha says of the ubhatobhágavimutta Arahat: „There is no liberation in both ways higher and more excellent than this liberation in both ways" (D.ii,71). The highest respect goes to those monks who possess not only liberation in both ways but the six abhiññás or „super-knowledges": the exercise of psychic powers, the divine ear, the ability to read the minds of others, the recollection of past lives, knowledge of the death and rebirth of beings, and knowledge of final liberation. The Buddha declares that a monk endowed with the six abhiññás, is worthy of gifts and hospitality, worthy of offerings and reverential salutations, a supreme field of merit for the world (A.iii,280-81). In the period after the Buddha's demise, what qualified a monk to give guidance to others was endowment with ten qualities: moral virtue, learning, contentment, mastery over the four jhánas, the five mundane abhiññas and attainment of the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom (M.iii, 11-12). Perhaps it was because he was extolled by the Buddha for his facility in the meditative attainments and the abhiññas that the venerable Mahákassapa assumed the presidency of the first great Buddhist council held in Rájagaha after the Buddha's passing away." http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas06.htm Metta, James 30676 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 1:40:35 AM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Thanissaro: Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. James: Yes, the Buddha did separate these two types of practices. I can't believe that Thanissaro, who has translated a lot of the Pali Canon, has made such a ridiculous statement. I have given one sutta quote already and Jon gave another. I'm sure that I could come up with even more if I looked but I think just one is sufficient-- since Thanissaro uses the word `never' just one example proves his whole case wrong (BTW, `Allness' statements are usually wrong.) jack: Many suttas have the word "jhana' in them. Thanisarro thinks most people define jhana incorrectly (see his first sentence below). If he is correct, these suttas do not prove him wrong. Thanissaro: But if you look in the Canon where the Buddha describes jhana, that's not the kind of state he's talking about. To be in jhana is to be absorbed, very pleasurably, in the sense of the whole body altogether. James: This describes only the first and second jhanas, not the third and fourth or the arupa jhanas (immaterial jhanas). Thanissaro seems to want to oversimplify jhana for the sake of making a point. Jack: Thanis. mentions the 4th jhana in his next paragraph. Thanissaro: To see how Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration help each other in the practice, we can look at the three stages of mindfulness practice given in the Foundations of Mindfulness Sutta. Take the body as an example. The first stage is to keep focused on the body in and of itself… James: Thanissaro has jumped from describing jhana to describing vipassana (satipatthana) as if they are the same thing. This is faulty logic and it is using a type of argumentation called `Bait and Switch'. The Buddha gave different suttas on the two types of practices because they are different. If they weren't different he would have only given one type of sutta. Jack: To repeat myself, Thanis. thinks jhana and vipasssana are not two separate practices but aspects of the same practice. His comments are consistent with this. No bait and switch is involved. The Buddha didn't present his teachings in one sutta. He presented it in many different suttas emphasizing different aspects. One sutta would emphasis this. Another sutta would emphasis that. Thanissaro: We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. James: I find this to be another over-simplification. Mindfulness, or sati, doesn't mean just to remember something. It includes many other qualities of mind. As the Buddha described it: "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world." So, `mindfulness' includes ardency, alertness, remembrance, and wholesomeness. Jack: To me, focusing my attention on the body means I remember to focus my attention on my body. That is what Thanis. is saying. Thanissaro: To do this, you have to learn about how things arise and pass away in the mind, not by simply watching them, but by actually getting involved in their arising and passing away. James: What?? Allowing oneself to get involved in the drama of the mind is not the purpose of mindfulness meditation. At this point in his discourse he should be emphasizing the role of equanimity. I am not sure if he realizes what he writes here because just one paragraph later he writes: jack: Thanis. is not saying to get involved in any drama. He is saying to deeply feel/realize arising and passing away, not to stay on the surface. Thanissaro: Suppose that anger is interfering with your concentration. Instead of getting involved in the anger, you try simply to be aware of when it's there and when it's not. You look at the anger as an event in and of itself -- as it comes, as it goes. James: Whew! That was close! Now he is back to teaching what the Buddha taught; unfortunately, he veers off again right after this: Thanissaro: But you don't stop there. The next step -- as you're still working at focusing on the breath -- is recognizing how anger can be made to go away. Sometimes simply watching it is enough to make it go away; sometimes it's not, and you have to deal with it in other ways, such as arguing with the reasoning behind the anger or reminding yourself of the drawbacks of anger. James: The Buddha didn't teach to `argue' with the reasoning behind the anger. Where is that going to get a person? I wrote a post to this group before about this subject and what the Buddha taught and `arguing' with the anger isn't one of the courses of action to use: The Buddha taught five methods which one can use to stop unwholesome thoughts after they arise. And the Buddha realized that these thoughts can be very powerful so he gave successive `treatments' to use. If the first one doesn't work, use the next one and so forth until the negative thought(s) (and accompanying emotion) is gone: 1. Reflect on a different object which is wholesome 2. Consider the disadvantages of the thought 3. Don't pay attention to the thought 4. Reflect on the removal of the source of the thought 5. Mentally beat down the thought The sutta and commentary notes can be found at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel021.html jack: Your 5 methods involve (1) reflecting, (2) considering, (3) not paying attention, (4) reflecting again and (5) mentally beating down the thought. To me, this involves arguing --especially (5) beating down. Nowhere does Thanis. say to lose one's equanimity. You will notice that nowhere in this list does the Buddha recommend to get emotionally involved with the unwholesome thought. Equanimity and detachedness should be present at all times, even when `beating down the thought'. Thanissaro: One technique I like to use -- when anger is present and you're in a situation where you don't immediately have to react to people -- is simply to ask yourself in a good-natured way, "Okay, why are you angry?" Listen to what the mind has to say. James: Why is Thanissaro now talking so much about anger? What is the focus of this article? So far he has jumped from jhana, to mindfulness, to anger. If he was in my English class and he submitted this article to me, I would give it back to him and have him rewrite it-- with a clearer and more focused thesis. jack: One aspect of jhana/vipassana meditation is overcoming the 5 hindrances. Anger is one of the 5 hindrances. So, it seems to be very fitting to bring in anger. Thanissaro: (1.) And it's the same with the mind: unless you actually try to make something out of the mind, try to get a mental state going and keep it going, you don't really know your own mind….(2). The same holds true with the mind. Of course, you could learn something about the mind by trying to get it into any sort of a state, but for the purpose of developing really penetrating insight, a state of stable, balanced, mindful concentration is the best kind of soufflé or pot you want to make with the mind….(3.) It's the same with the mind. When it has been well fed with the rapture and ease coming from concentration, it's ready to learn. It can accept your criticisms without feeling threatened or abused. James: This is getting redundant and silly. Thanissaro seems to be comparing everything but the kitchen sink to the mind. Wait! A kitchen sink can contain dirty dishes which it can then make clean- It's the same with the mind! ;-)) jack: Next thing Thanis. might do is to bring up anthills, elephant foot prints and a lion's roar. Silly man. Thanissaro: So it's important to realize that there are these three stages to mindfulness practice, and to understand the role that deliberate concentration practice plays in taking you through the first two. James: I completely missed where he enumerated these three stages and, by this point, I (as a reader) am not going to make the effort to go back and try and figure it out. He has lost me. jack: It's there if you look. . I hope we are each presenting his understanding of both the dhamma and Thanis's article instead of butting heads. Your last post activated my head butting complex. I apologise if this came across in this post. jack 30677 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 0:49pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Carl - > Thank you for this post of yours. Clearly I spoke too soon and made some unwarranted assumptions, particularly that what is obvious to me need not at all be so to others. I very much regret my use of the expression "cognitive disorder". I thank you for not having taken umbrage at my use of that phrase. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Nothing wrong with the phrase at all! But perhaps just more common than you may have realized. I would consider samsara a cognitive disorder. :) Carl 30678 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 0:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Christine >Christine writes: >Maybe we could form a support group for the >Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the Cognitively >Abled LOL! Thanks for the support. We are not alone I'm sure. Actually I think of the DSG as just such a support group. Thanks for being here. Carl --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/22/04 2:42:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Hello Carl, Swee Boon, Howard, Larry and all, > > > > Carl - thank you for this post - I was beginning to feel a little > > anxious that I was the only one with this 'cognitive disability'. I, > > too, could understand intellectually some facts - like Rupa is > > physical phenomena that does not experience anything; and Nama is > > mental phenomena that experiences something - but still confuse sound > > and flavour etc. as mental phenomena. Maybe we could form a support > > group for the Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the > > Cognitively Abled - that is, if we are not so far beneath their > > August notice that it prevents them realising we exist? > > (a little mana, perhaps, Howard :-) - that's mental BTW :-)) > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > ============================ > Actually (truly) - it wasn't mana. It was seriously a matter of not > thinking at all that people might significantly confuse nama and rupa. The fact > that some do, and it obviously is the case that some do, is still truly > surprising to me. Had I realized this to be the case, I would certainly not have > used the phrase "cognitive disorder", and, as I wrote to Carl, I regret having > done so. > > With metta, > Howard > 30679 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Carl - In a message dated 2/27/04 3:52:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, c7carl@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Nothing wrong with the phrase at all! But perhaps just > more common than you may have realized. I would consider samsara a > cognitive disorder. :) ------------------------------------ Howard: Right you are!! ;-) ------------------------------------ > Carl > ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30680 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Icaro, Thank you for your response to my post. Your words are appreciated and helpful. Carl --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Carl: > > > Dear Howard and Swee Boon: Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had > > difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much > > effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the > > map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be > > pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and > fun) > > concept for me. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > As a matter of fact, Carl, every perception we get for external > world is Nama conjoined with Rupa: an easy reference could be rupa > as the body and nama as the soul... but at Dhamma we haven´t got > such nonsense. Cf The Dhammapada , 380 : The Dhamma has not got an > Ego, a self, as a Merchant or his horse, or his refuge or his > master. So, Dhamma is Anatta, or, is devoid of Self, as the human > law, applied to all citizens without any distinction of this Self or > that Self. > And at our mind´s realms, Rupa and Nama exist together. I take > Nama as the medieval nominalist could take such term: nama is not a > metaphisycal "Form" of Matter, is more or less akin of a label we > put on our experience of world... and, at the last stand, Rupa and > not Nama is a Aramana Dhamma (Cf. Dhammasangani, last chapter). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I > could > > not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even > > distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a > > feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from > > that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my > idea" > > of that very same tree. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Spinoza could try a classification of human feelings at > his "Ethica More Geometrico Demonstrata". > Nietzsche could try the same at his "Ecce Homo". > Buddha prefers a viewpoint at with such affairs are seen as > impermanent aggregates of causes and conditions. > At the Abhidhamma´s Puggala book we get also a classification of > human types. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > I was definatally a dweller in downtown > > samsara. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > It could be better than to be a definitively dweller on Downtown > Barra, Rio de Janeiro...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!! > But, speaking serious now, it will of no use try to transform > Samsara in Nibbana only by means of positive thinking. It doesn´t > works at this way, mister! > You must get a firm decision to boldly thread up the Path to > Nibbana an throw off aside Samsaric tracts. Again The Dhammapada, 75 > (Last stanza of Dhammapada V, Baalavagga): there are two distinct > ways, the way towards illusory material pleasures - Samsara - and > the way towards Nibbana. That´s the question. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to > hang > > and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar > > pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and > next > > to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And > look! > > Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! > > Now on to the rupa closet. :) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks to Internet, The Abhidhamma field is now more cheaper than > seems - it won´t cost to you the proverbial thirty silver coins! > Don´t hang yourself in anything you think to be unsecure ...and I > hope this words may do you good! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 30681 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: Many suttas have the word "jhana' in them. Thanisarro thinks most people define jhana incorrectly (see his first sentence below). If he is correct, these suttas do not prove him wrong. James: I am not considering `most people'; I am only considering the Buddha. The Buddha didn't define jhana incorrectly. When the Buddha said jhana he meant jhana, when he said satipatthana he meant satipatthana. I don't see what the issue is. Jack: To repeat myself, Thanis. thinks jhana and vipasssana are not two separate practices but aspects of the same practice. His comments are consistent with this. No bait and switch is involved. James: Well, to repeat myself ;-), Thanissaro is wrong about this. What else can I say? He is wrong. He isn't the Buddha; he isn't an arahant; it is actually possible for him to be wrong. Jack: The Buddha didn't present his teachings in one sutta. He presented it in many different suttas emphasizing different aspects. One sutta would emphasis this. Another sutta would emphasis that. James: I'm sorry, but you are going to have to be a little more specific. I gave you the Samadhi Sutta where the Buddha specifically describes different practices of concentration which lead to different results: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html In this sutta the Buddha describes jhana as being one type of concentration and satipatthana as being a different type of concentration. How much plainer can it get? ;-) Give me just one sutta where the Buddha said that it isn't important to consider the differences and that there is really only one type of meditation. Jack: To me, focusing my attention on the body means I remember to focus my attention on my body. That is what Thanis. is saying. James: Yes, mindfulness does involve remembering but that isn't all. Are all you doing is remembering to focus on your body? What about actually doing it? I could remember that I need to buy eggs at the store but nothing will happen until I actually go buy them. jack: Thanis. is not saying to get involved in any drama. He is saying to deeply feel/realize arising and passing away, not to stay on the surface. James: To `feel' and to `realize' are two different things. Feelings are suffering; realization is wisdom and isn't suffering. You are being as unspecific in your use of terms as Thanissaro, that was all I was saying. jack: Your 5 methods involve (1) reflecting, (2) considering, (3) not paying attention, (4) reflecting again and (5) mentally beating down the thought. To me, this involves arguing --especially (5) beating down. Nowhere does Thanis. say to lose one's equanimity. James: First, these are the Buddha's methods, not mine. Second, I don't think that one can `argue' with equanimity. The very word `argue' means that feelings are involved with automatically destroys equanimity. Of course, this is a semantic issue and Thanissaro didn't elaborate what he really meant so we can drop it. jack: One aspect of jhana/vipassana meditation is overcoming the 5 hindrances. Anger is one of the 5 hindrances. So, it seems to be very fitting to bring in anger. James: First, what do you mean by `jhana/vipassana meditation'? I thought you are agreeing with Thanissaro that there aren't any differences? Now you are really confusing me! ;-)) Second, when writing an essay or article it isn't okay to start elaborating at length on anything that is only somewhat related to your main thesis. I have a B.A. in English and a Masters in English Education, trust me on this one! ;-)) jack: Next thing Thanis. might do is to bring up anthills, elephant foot prints and a lion's roar. Silly man. James: Glad you see it my way! ;-) Yes, Thanissaro is being a silly man. And if the Buddha had brought up all of those metaphors in just one sutta I would consider him a silly man also. (This is another of those `English things' but I gave you a full criticism since you asked for one.) jack: It's there if you look. James: I shouldn't have to hunt around and piece together Thanissaro's points. If it is there could you please quote it for me? Jack: I hope we are each presenting his understanding of both the dhamma and Thanis's article instead of butting heads. Your last post activated my head butting complex. I apologise if this came across in this post. James: Don't worry; I do that to a lot of people! ;-)) I didn't think your last post was anything to apologize for- no big deal. I have butted heads with Ken O so this is like a stroll on the beach compared to that! ;-) However, I think I am simply presenting my ideas in as rational and unemotional way as possible. How you may react to those ideas isn't my responsibility. Honestly though, I didn't know that you had such strong opinions about Thanissaro's article before I posted about it. I thought you were neutral and just wanted another opinion (I don't usually make such a big mistake like that…my psychic ability must be on the fritz lately! ;-) Metta, James 30682 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Vism.XIV 62 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV 62. 15. Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes that occurrence in speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung-to matter.28 Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of the voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element. But it is called 'verbal intimation' because it is the cause of the intimating of intention by means of the voice in speech, and because it is itself intimatable through speech, in other words, through that voice in speech. For, just as, on seeing a sign for water consisting of an ox skull, etc., hung up in the forest, it is intimated that 'there is water here', so too, on noticing either the bodily shaking or the voice in speech thus, they intimate. 29 (See Dhs. 637.) -------------------- note 28. Vaciibheda--'speech utterance' is not in P.T.S. Dict., which does not give this use of bheda. Pm. (p. 452) explains: 'The function (--"knocking together") of the vocal apparatus (--"clung-to matter"). note 29. 'The question, "It is the mode and the alteration of what?", should be handled in the same way as for bodily intimation, with this difference: for "next to the apprehension of the appearance of movement" substitute "next to the hearing of an audible sound". And here, because of the absence of stiffening, etc., the argument beginning "For it is the air element given rise to by the seventh impulsion" does not apply; for the sound arises together with the knocking together, and the knocking together only applies in the case of the first impulsion, and so on. The knocking together is the arising of groups of primaries (bhuuta-kalaapa) in proximity to each other due to conditions. The movement is the progression of the successive arising in adjacent locations. This is the difference. The earth element's knocking together is parallel to the air element's moving as regards function' (Pm. 452). 30683 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 3:16:01 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Honestly though, I didn't know that you had such strong opinions about Thanissaro's article before I posted about it. I thought you were neutral and just wanted another opinion (I don't usually make such a big mistake like that…my psychic ability must be on the fritz lately! ;-) James, I don't have a strong opinion about this article. I don't know if it is right or wrong, though I suspect it is right. (I do think your criticisms are wrong.) And, I'm not really concerned about the whole vipassana/jhana thing. It doesn't affect my practice which is the most important to me. jack 30684 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 62 Hi Nina, A couple of questions: 62: "Its function is to display intention." L: Does "intention" = "meaning"? Can we translate "what do you mean" into "what is your intention"? Is the meaning of a concept an intention? 62: "Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes that occurrence in speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung-to matter." L: Can we say that the air that passes over the vocal cords is earth element, not air element? The apparent movement is air element. Also, it seems there are many intentions involved in intimation. One is a purely functional one of making the right gesture or sound. This is most apparent when speaking a foreign language or with loss of memory. This intention is distinct from the intention that may be involved in the "message" of the intimation and the "agenda" behind the message. Are all of these intentions included in the intimation scenario? Larry 30685 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:13pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I don't have a strong opinion about this article. James: Oh, that's good. Now my reputation as `Psychic Extraordinaire' is still intact! ;-)) (I have to tease myself since Sarah isn't around to do it for a couple days! ;-) Jack: (I do think your criticisms are wrong.) James: Could you throw me a bit more of a bone than this?? I'm starving here! ;-)) What can I say? I've been defeated. ;-) Jack: And, I'm not really concerned about the whole vipassana/jhana thing. James: Good, no reason to be concerned about it. I practiced vipassana for many years and got to a point where I couldn't go forward anymore. I didn't have a strong enough foundation in calmness. I totally freaked when I really saw that my mind was appearing and disappearing! ;-)) So now I have switched to Jhana to get that foundation in calmness that I need. I may stay with Jhana or I may switch back, but I think I will stay with Jhana. I like it more and it seems to suit me better. Jack: It doesn't affect my practice which is the most important to me. James: Good. Good luck in your practice! Metta, James 30686 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Icaro's food and rupa Dear Nina: Wonderful! Your definition of the set of events of our external world as Suddhatthaka Rupakalapa or avinibhoga groups is very, very clever. Some remarks: a) Your playing between ideas over a Supermarket shelf remembers me my first readings of Dhammasangani, when the long imbricated sequence of answer and questions (more than a FAQ!) gave me the impression of a nice spiritual supermarket, where you can really pick up all Dhammas you need, Hetu and ahetu, with or without Paccaya, aramana, Vipaka, Upadinnupadipadaniya, etc, etc,etc. Usually one only Word of Dhamma would be suffice for your practice, at least at the first grade of Traditional Jhana... b) Nina, you always stated up without doubt the descend of Abhidhamma ideas to practical life. Unfortunately I haven't got time for reading your books, only excerpts... Taking on the side of grammar, I see it as a matching of language structures and how it reacts on mind. Lacan, Freud, Jung and others postulated on many works that our sub-conscience brain stracta is formated by language at a whole, even at a Symbolical level of understanding. So, the journey from Pali to Indonesian Bahasya, Thai (a very old language,older than many branches of sino-tibetan group!), Dutch (hee-hee-hee-hee...) and other modern languages of Buddhistic ideas is a paramount interest of mine. c) I've downloaded all the Dhammasangani of Tipitaka.org and the www.Metta.lk version... but it will take time to search manually the entry you quoted, dear Nina! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (he has not neglected his > jogging after the bootcamp). Also the groups of rupa originated from kamma, > from nutrition, and from temperature are supporting the movement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! It is a double way crossroad... my sedentary work at the Military Bureau reduces my jogging time, so I get an uneasy feeling of growing fat...bleargh!!!!! So I try to manage to reduce my taking of food and drink. Fortunately I am having success on redressing the balance you mentioned - Nutrition and temperature supporting movement, and movement supporting the rupas ( and kammas) of Food. If movement becomes less "Active", so it is good policy to eat less! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Icaro, look at Dsgn (p. 254), nikkhepa kandam, hetu-gocchakam, about hundred > definitions of lobha. It is very beautiful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I could raise a proposal to a search engine to quotes and Pali terms on tipitaka texts, like the PTS Pali-English online dictionary!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > We cannot escape nama and rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Resistance is Futile... Prepare to be Assimilated (I got some "Voyager" episodes with dutch legends! Cool!) mettaya, Ícaro 30687 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 62 Hi Nina, One more question: 62: "the knocking together of clung-to matter" L: Is there any special significance to this term "clung-to matter"? Is it more clung-to than other matter? Larry 30688 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:09am Subject: Common Misconceptions of Jhana This discourse is in response to these questions: 1) Is Jhana of value in the Noble Eight Fold Path? 2) How important is Jhana in the Noble Eight Fold Path? 3) Is Jhana a practice? 4) Should Jhana be avoided? 5) Is there a path that is superior (supramundane) to jhana? 6) Are the experiences of jhana mundane within normal human experience, or are they supramundane (lokuttara)? 7) Is jhana a manifestation of an addictive behavior disorder? Right absorption (sama-samadhi) is characterized by the four absorptions (jhanas) (DN 22.21). Aside from the obvious and frequent exhortations from the Buddha that right absorption (sama-samadhi) (DN 22.21) is characterized by jhana, and that one who has skillfulness in absorption (jhana) was seen by him as "the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of ... meditators" (SN 34); and that the suttas are saturated and suffused with exhortations from the historic Buddha that his students give rise to absorption (jhana); then we can only conclude that at the very least jhana is not only a worthy attainment, but it is a central constituent in following the Noble Eight Fold Path. But, let me say, absorption (jhana) is not a practice, it is an attainment. Absorption (jhana) is the attainment for one who practices mindfulness (sati) correctly. We know this because absorption (jhana) is a fruit of the Noble Eight Fold Path, and Right Mindfulness (sama-sati), the 7th step leads to Right Absorption (sama-samadhi) (DN 22.21) the 8th step. We can therefore conclude if one has not given rise to absorption (jhana) one has not been practicing mindfulness (sati) correctly, and therefore they are not following the Noble Eight Fold Path. Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22 "And what is right {absorption (sama-samadhi)}? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana... (through fourth jhana). I would however argue that bliss (piiti), joy (sukha), tranquility (passa ddhi) and equanimity (upekkha), which are manifestations of absorption (jhana) are indeed "outside of ordinary human experience," and thus supramundane (lokuttara), because since there is so much unhappiness (dukkha) in this world I do not believe bliss, joy, tranquility and equanimity are common daily experiences. Also the historic Buddha called absorption (jhana) supramundane (lokuttara). If you read the Samadhanga Sutta, AN 28, you will find that the correct practice of sati leads to absorption (jhana), and the yogi must seek to become saturated and suffused with the various aspects (bliss, joy, tranquility and equanimity) of absorption (jhana). Samadhanga Sutta AN V. 28 "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal." Finally, if you are intent upon enlightenment (nibbana) in this very lifetime, then you will need absorption (jhana), because absorption provides 4 of the 7 factors of enlightenment. 3) Tranquillity passaddhi 5) Equanimity upekkha 6) Ecstasy or bliss (Rapture) piiti 7) Absorption samadhi One who believes that one who has given rise to absorption (jhana) is attached to anything does not know the suttas, nor the attainments of the Noble Eight Fold Path. Because, one who has given rise to right absorption (sama-samadhi) has given rise to absorption (jhana) by observing right mindfulness (sama-sati), and is thus "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from sensual unwholesome states" and has found a "bliss (piiti), joy (sukha), tranquility (passaddhi) and equanimity (upekkha) that is born of seclusion" and the "abandoning of pleasure and pain" that "includes the purification of mindfulness (sati) by equanimity." (SN 9.53) Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four jhanas slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." Some say absorption (jhana) is a temporary state that suppresses the hindrance, but does not eradicate them. Anyone who believes thus does not know the suttas, and has not grasped the teachings of the Buddha. Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." In conclusion, one who does not accept absorption (jhana) as a necessary fruit of the Noble Eight Fold Path does not know the path of the Buddha. One who has not given rise to absorption (jhana) has not given rise to right absorption (sama-samadhi), therefore has not practiced right mindfulness (sama-sati), and thus has not followed the Noble Eight Fold Path. May you become enlightened in this very lifetime. Jeff Brooks 30689 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hello Swee Boon, this sutta happens to be one of my favorite suttas, because it reveals the relationship the jhana yogi has with the senses during absorption. I like it so much I use it in my classes. I have appended here the translation I use which is a bit different from yours and I think it is better rendered, it is of course thanks to the excellent work of Thanissaro Bhikkhu with just the slightest little tweak from yours truly. The reference to "that" is the object and I believe it refers to a nondual state in which the subject no longer perceives objects as separate from him or her self. Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 "...then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of dissatisfaction (dukkha)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/27/04 9:10:45 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:30:23 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi RobertK, Regarding Bahiya Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10a.html "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? Regards, Swee Boon >> 30690 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good example of where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like the Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit about the results of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four results of the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness is absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge & vision which are the supramundane abilities. Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I have found that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me purely as a consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro Bhikkhus article I believe supports the belief that there is only one practice path with four fruits. Excellent work. Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/27/04 9:10:45 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:33:35 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (satis). There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. The development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents is different from that leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana). And the development of concentration leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana) is not a pre-requisite for the development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents. Regards, Swee Boon >> 30691 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello James and Jack, I would very much like to read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article, because I believe it supports my premise as well. Is the article online? I would like to read it. I have found no evidence in the sutta pitaka to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are implied to be the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as a practice path, but as attainments that one arrives at through the practice of mindfulness (sati). Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/27/04 9:10:45 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:39:50 -0000 From: "buddhatrue" Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. James: Okay, since you really want to know: Thanissaro: Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. James: Yes, the Buddha did separate these two types of practices. I can't believe that Thanissaro, who has translated a lot of the Pali Canon, has made such a ridiculous statement. I have given one sutta quote already and Jon gave another. I'm sure that I could come up with even more if I looked but I think just one is sufficient-- since Thanissaro uses the word `never' just one example proves his whole case wrong (BTW, `Allness' statements are usually wrong.) >> 30692 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo Hello all. I'm going to be spending a lot of time looking through the "useful posts" file, so with your permission will bring some up to the board for another look. I was very interested to read about Rob K's experience while walking, because I do a lot of it as part of my practice, and for exercise. I used to love to ramble and find new places, but recently I have been staying in one very ordinary park near my apartment, of the sort can be found in the vicinity of any suburban train station in Japan, and walking around the walking trail again and again. I am becoming more and more familiar with the people and birds and vegetation to be found there, and am having some very interesting little insight experiences. Conceptual, as usual for me, but solid and helpful and in line with the Dhamma and because they are clearly in line with the Buddha's teaching they gave rise to confidence (saddha.) Predictably, however, I started hungering after these small insight moments, and instead of staying on the meditation object I use when walking and being aware of the humble insights arising, it they did, I started actively looking for them, and that's not the way to go about it. Rob K is deep in the abdhidhamma, and I imagine immune to this coarse kind of error, but I imagine if it were me and I went for a walk in the same wilderness the next day I would be actively looking for insight and the whole walk would be ruined. What I've just written doesn't address the topic of the whole post. Just wanted to comment on how tough it is for me not to crave insights after conditions have arisen to give me a few. And I wonder if other folks have dealt with that. It's not causing me to fret about it. It's just interesting. What a wealth of helpful posts in the useful posts section. Really enjoying my time in there. With Metta Philip P.S Rob K's post is from September 21, 2001. I know people's understanding changes as the years go by, so I hope people don't mind if I drag up their past posts. I guess it's helpful to see if and how the understanding has changed. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Venerable Dhammapiyo, > Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. > I find it not easy to talk about the practice as if it were > something we should do, different from what we are doing right > now. It seems so much just part of life, the study, the > considering, the moments when there is direct awareness; It all > goes together, and each assists the development of the others. > Writing on the internet there are many reminders of the nature > of realities, or reading the newspaper, the death and sorrow we > read about remind me of the paticcasamupada (dependent > origination) and how actually death is happening right now : the > momentary death of a moment of seeing which falls away to be > replaced by some other conditioned dhamma. > > Yesterday I went for a long walk in the New Zealand wilderness > where I am now holidaying. In one part there was a foul smell > and I soon saw the rotting carcase of a large cow in the swamp. > How does this relate to the practice and Abhidhamma? There was > smelling (a type of citta)and smell (a rupa). then so quickly > some slight degree of dosa (aversion)- a cetasika that arose > because of several conditions. Then there was very quickly the > thought that "soon I will die and be like this" and that > thinking was underlaid by detachment and calm so is a level of > samatha. And then there was some understanding of the difference > between the understanding that was at the level of samatha and > that that was of satipatthana. > There was not understanding of the degree of vipassana. Nor was > there samatha at the level of upacara (access concentration). > And yet confidence (saddha) (another cetasika - not self)was > strong. > We read in the suttas about a monk seeing a corpse, or some > other object, and how he immediately became enlightened. > Learning about these different moments in our own life one knows > how it must have been for those monks. One sees the way that > understanding develops and is confident, to whatever degree is > suitable, of what the path is. No one can say when enough > understanding will be developed so that such moments could > condition magga citta (path moment). It might be next week or it > might be a thousand lifetimes later- or much more. It doesn't > matter; what is most important is learning what the buddha > really taught and seeing it over and over. > > I believe it is not so much a matter of doing and trying but of > learning to see. The dhammas in the Abhidhamma are here and now. > We don't have to go anywhere or do anything; but there does have > to be sufficient conditions. There should be awe and respect for > the Dhamma so that one studies not with the aim of getting > something, but rather of genuinely testing out what is heard > against this moment. The more we listen and consider and > investigate directly, then for sure there are more conditions > been built up for insight. > In the very beginning there are only conditions for ignorance > and craving so almost everyone tries so hard to see. But the > sort of seeing that the Buddha meant is detached. Thus real > insight comes not from trying and wanting but through fulfilling > the correct conditions. Then there are moments, maybe a few more > every year, where awareness arises just because it must, and > this is deeper than when we try to make it come about. Then > awareness too is known as anatta, as not under control of > anyone. However, this doesn't mean 'well it's all conditioned, > I'll just let it happen'. So I am not saying 'don't try to be > aware", but by being awake to lobha(craving) we know it is > always trying to slip in. It can be extremely refined. > > Also I feel the moments when there is only heedlessness are very > natural , conditioned , not self: we don't need to be frightened > of unwholesome moments as they are only conditioned dhammas- so > insignificant and fleeting- we should see them as they are. Then > again it is not the middle way if we tolerate the kilesa either, > then we are not sincere... > Another point. I find different reminders and different ways of > considering very helpful. Otherwise there is a tendency, because > life has become easier (through more understanding, or samattha > or sila), to get comfortable and coast. Reading different suttas > reminds us of different realities and the complex ways they are > conditioned; it helps us see these dhammas as anatta when they > appear in daily life > These are just my reflections. I think there are not rules we > should follow because everyone's accumulations are vastly > different. I like what Dan wrote about this:"Instead of > prescribing a ritual to guarantee enlightenment, the Buddha > described the nature of reality and suggested that we carefully > consider his words, not just intellectually, but as they apply > to each > moment in the day." > Anumodana on your great interest for Dhamma as shown by your > life as a Bhikkhu in the sasana of the Buddha. > robert > > > Dear Robert K., > > I am deeply touched by the clear and concise explanation. It is > excellent! > > Sadhu! Sadhu! Sahdu! > > If you would be so kind, could you communicate some things about > actual > practice? > > It would be very helpful to many surely! > > Metta and Karuna > > Dhammapiyo Bhante > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Epstein" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:47 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Rob E > > > > > > --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > > > --- : > > > > _______ > > > Dear Robert E., > > > Vipassana means special or profound seeing. That is, insight > into the > > > true nature of dhammas, realities. These dhammas are > analysed and > > > explained by the Sammasamabuddha in the most careful way in > the > > > Abhidhamma. They are also explained throughout the rest of > the > > > Tipitaka but in a less comprehensive way. > > > The Buddha's teaching are sometimes called DhammaVinaya (the > > > teachings and discipline). And these are recorded in the > Tipitaka > > > (the pali canon). Ti means three and so it is divided into > 1) Vinaya > > > (rules for monks and nuns). 2)Suttanta - individual > discourses to > > > various people on diverse topics and 3) Abhidhamma > > > People have different accumulations and hence there are > differences > > > as to which aspects of the DhammaVinaya are most appealing. > However, > > > even one who devotes most time to suttanta or vinaya will > have to > > > know much about the khandas, the ayatanas(sense fields), and > the > > > dhatus(elements) , the different conditions; as these are, > as the > > > visuddhimagga says "the soil in which understanding grows". > These are > > > all found in the suttanta and even a little in the vinaya . > But it is > > > only in the Abhidhamma where they are elucidated in full > detail. The > > > Abhidhamma details all that the realities that we experience > in daily > > > life as well as those that we aspire to. Understanding > Abhidhamma is > > > synonymous with with understanding life, with vipassana . > (By > > > understanding I mean not as an academic understands but as > direct and > > > deep understanding of whatever appears at the 6doors.) > > > here is an url: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tipintr4.htm > > > robert 30693 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, Jeff (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/27/04 7:00:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: > > Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good example > of > where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like the > Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit about the > results > of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the confusion lies > in > a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however > it > is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four results > of > the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice > path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice > path > which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is > mindfulness > of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness is > absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness > (sati), a > pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as > they > are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane abilities. > > Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I have found > that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me purely > as a > consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro Bhikkhus > article I believe supports the belief that there is only one practice path > with > four fruits. > > Excellent work. Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks =============================== You say in the foregoing that "... absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane abilities." This sounds as if you are saying that complete enlightenment is achievable solely by mastering the jhanas. Were that the case, then one would sensibly ask what was novel in the Buddha's teaching, inasmuch as mastering the jhanas was already the quintessence of current yogic practice circa 500 BCE? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30694 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:53pm Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Dear Swee Boon, I haven't looked up the pali here. But this sutta is a summary of the Abhidhamma: insight into the present moment as being anatta. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > Regarding Bahiya Sutta, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud1- 10a.html > > "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be > merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely > what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. > > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the > cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be > 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you > will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, > Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. > Just this is the end of suffering." > > > What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30695 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:45pm Subject: Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: I was very interested to read about Rob K's experience while > walking, because I do a lot of it as part of my practice, and for > exercise. > Predictably, however, I started hungering after these small > insight moments, and instead of staying on the meditation object I > use when walking and being aware of the humble insights arising, it > they did, I started actively looking for them, and that's not the way > to go about it. > > P.S Rob K's post is from September 21, 2001. I know people's > understanding changes as the years go by, so I hope people don't mind > if I drag up their past posts. I guess it's helpful to see if and how > the understanding has changed. ======================================================= Hi Philip, Glad you liked my little stroll in the woods. Please bring up old posts anytime. You wonder if my understanding changed since then?: only that I am even more confident that insight is a matter of seeing what is here and now, not trying to change things to be how we think they should be. The hungering for repetition of insights you mentioned is a fit object for sati. It is craving and should be known. It is classified under cittanupassana and also under dhammanupassana (nivarana). In fact the commentary says that ""the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood. "" You could become enlightened by seeing the conditionality of craving. I think I mind less and less whether craving is object, or seeing, or thinking, or dosa, or painful feeling or pleasant feeling.... Of course I crave pleasant feeling - but as an object of insight any moment is perfect because each moment is conditioned to be that way. RobertK 30696 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 2/27/04 11:28:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > > > I know. But your suttas are quoted like someone try etc... the > > questions is, is the sutta talking about someone make effort or > > conditions. > > > > Ken O > > > ========================== > Well, in any case, I had not asked a question about "who" > makes an effort. It is not a qustion that I would ask, because it contains a presupposition that I don't accept. > The Buddha used conventional speech - as we all do - as you > have just done. k: Yes Buddha used conventionaly speech. But in the sutta I quoted you, it is a clear indication he reject an "one" that goes through, contact, feelings etc. I interpret your earlier email when you quoted a few suttas about arousing of one effort is not consistent with what I quoted. That is my prejudice. Anyway, you said in an earlier mail to another person, each one of us has their own *prejudice* ;-). Ken O 30697 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hi Swee Boon, Jeff (& RobK), --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: <...> J:> Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 > > "...then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you > in > terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you > are > neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end > of > dissatisfaction (dukkha)." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html > From: "nidive" <...> SB:> "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be > merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely > what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. > > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the > cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be > 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you > will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, > Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. > Just this is the end of suffering." > > > What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? ... Sarah: Interesting. Let me add the Peter Masefield translation with commentary notes on the phrases you ask about at the end, [my asterisks for the phrases you ask about]: “There, Baahiya, you should so train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen,........cognised - so should you, Baahiya, train yourself. When for you, Baahiya, with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen,......cognised, then you, Baahiya, will not be *therewith*. When you, Baahiya, are not *therewith*, then you, Baahiya, will not be *therein*. When you , Baahiya, are not *therein*, then you, Baahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both - this alone is the end of dukkha”. ..... Udana 1:10 commentary to just the last part. [Square brackets give my insertions taken from PM's notes]: “>Therewith (tena)<: with that seen and so on, or alternatively with that lust and so forth that is subject to the seen and so on.[tena di.t.thaadinaa di.t.thaadipa.tibaddhena raagaadinaa vaa]. This is what is said: “Baahiya, at such time as, or alternatively as a result of that reason by means of which, there will be for you, as you are practising the method spoken of by me, with respect to the seen and so on merely the seen and so forth, through unequivocal awareness as to their own nature [sabhava], at that time, or alternatively as a result of that [tena va] reason, you will not be in concert with that lust and so on [raagaadinaa saha na bhavissasi] that is subject to the seen and so forth, you will not be either excited or blemished or deluded, or alternatively you will not be subject, in concert with the seen and so on, (thereto,) on account of your being one for whom lust and so on are abandoned [pahiinaraagaadikattaa].” >Then you, Baahiya, will not be therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha)<: when, or alternatively since, you will be neither excited with [these refs to ‘with’ refer back to >therewith (tena)< above] that lust [tena raagena vaa ratto], blemished with that anger, nor deluded with that delusion, then, or alternatively therefore, you will not be therein, in that seen and so on, you will not be attached, established, either in that seen or in that heard, sensed, cognised, by way of craving, conceit and (wrong) view thinking “This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self” - to this extent there is indicated, by causing full understanding as to abandoning to reach the summit, the plane of the one in whom the aasavas have been destroyed. >Then you, Baahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both (tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)<: when you, Baahiya, will not be therein, subject to the seen and so forth, with that lust and so on, then you will be neither in this world nor in the next world, nor also [pi] in both [ubhayattha]. >This alone is the end of dukkha (es’ev’anto dukkhassa)<: for this alone is the end, this the demarcation, limitation [paricchedo pariva.tumabhaavo], of dukkha in the form of the defilements and of dukkha belonging to the cycle......’” ***** S: Swee Boon, hope this helps. Again we see the teaching about right awareness and understanding of namas and rupas leading to the guarding of the sense doors and the eradication of defilements. As RobK suggested, we're reading about the development of satipatthana. I gave more quotes from the commentary in other posts on this wonderful sutta/udana, including one following on from the above quote to dispel any possible interpretation of an intemediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) or self or essence. Jeff, you may like to look at some of them as you like and use this sutta so much: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20797.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24977 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24980 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24983 Further discussion welcome! Metta, Sarah p.s Jeff, I think both Jon and Ken wrote posts to you which you may not have seen. If not, just key in your name in search on escribe and you should find them: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ============================================ 30698 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Howard, Swee Boon, Jeff and all, In the Buddha's system of mental training the role of serenity is subordinated to that of insight because the latter is the crucial instrument needed to uproot the ignorance at the bottom of samaric bondage. As you say, the attainments possible through serenity meditation were know to Indian contemplatives long before the advent of the Buddha. In the Majjhima Nikaya 26.15 -16 the Buddha states how he mastered the two highest stages of jhana under his early teachers but found that they only led to higher places of rebirth, not to genuine enlightenment. He said: "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher, placed me, his pupil, on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occurred to me: 'This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the base of nothingness.' Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, I left it and went away." <<>> "Thus Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, placed me in the position of a teacher and accorded me the highest honour. But it occurred to me: 'This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.' Not being satisfied with the Dhamma, I left it and went away." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > You say in the foregoing that "... absorption has these four > characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), > insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are > the supramundane abilities." This sounds as if you are saying that complete > enlightenment is achievable solely by mastering the jhanas. Were that the case, > then one would sensibly ask what was novel in the Buddha's teaching, inasmuch > as mastering the jhanas was already the quintessence of current yogic > practice circa 500 BCE? > > With metta, > Howard 30699 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good example of > where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like the > Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit about the results > of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the confusion lies in > a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it > is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four results of > the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice > path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path > which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness > of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness is > absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a > pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they > are (vipassana), and knowledge & vision which are the supramundane abilities. > > Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I have found > that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me purely as a > consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro Bhikkhus > article I believe supports the belief that there is only one practice path with > four fruits. > > Excellent work. Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks Hehehe…now, I am really finding this funny. Here you are stating that there is only one path of practice, basically jhana; and over here we have Thanissaro writing that there is only one path of practice, basically vipassana. Maybe you two should get together and make up your minds? ;-)) I think this is a classic example of how people are going to read exactly what they want to read. And they are going to look for details that support their already established point-of-view and skip those details that don't. But really, this is very simple. Go back to the basics: The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path. Of the path, Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness are two different things. The Buddha described them differently, listed them differently, and intended them to be different. Right Mindfulness he defined as Satipatthana; Right Concentration he defined as Jhana. I now firmly believe that they both should be established in one's practice and pursued, just as the Buddha taught. There are no short- cuts. Satipatthana without Jhana is either too weak or mentally disturbing. Jhana without Satipatthana doesn't bring an end to the effluents. But, because they should both be present does that mean that they are the same thing or should be considered the same? No. Let me give another sutta about this issue to show that Jhana and Vipassana are indeed different practices but that they should both be developed (as far as I know, this sutta isn't available online): AN 72 "Tranquility and Insight" These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four? Here, monks, a certain person gains internal tranquility of mind but does not gain the higher wisdom of insight into things. (46) Another person gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but does not gain internal tranquility of mind. Another person gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things. And another person gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains internal tranquility of mind but not the higher wisdom of insight into things should approach one who gains the higher wisdom and inquire of him: "How, friend, should formations be seen? How should formations be explored? How should formations be discerned with insight? (47) The other answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "Formations should be seen in such a way; they should be explored in such a way; they should be discerned with insight in such a way." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but not internal tranquility of mind should approach one who gains internal tranquility and inquire of him: "How, friend, should the mind be steadied? How should the mind be composed? How should the mind be unified? How should the mind be concentrated?" The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "The mind should be steadied in such a way, composed in such a way, unified in such a way, concentrated in such a way." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things should approach one who gains both and inquire of him: "How, friend, should the mind be steadied?...How, friend, should formations be seen?..." The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "The mind should be steadied in such a way…Formations should be seen in such a way…" At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things should establish himself in just these wholesome states and make a further effort for the destruction of the taints. Note 46: AA explains internal tranquility of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), and the higher wisdom of insight into things (abhipannadhammavipassana) as insight knowledge discerning formations (sankharapariggahaka-vipassananana). The latter is called `higher wisdom' and it is insight into the `things' comprised of the five aggregates. Note 47: "Formations" (sakhara) are the conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates: bodily form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. So, Jeff, is this enough proof that there are in fact two different types of practices or are you going to come back and tell me that this sutta doesn't say what it clearly says? ;-)) Metta, James 30700 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Are Arahants noticeably different? Dear Group, If we were to meet an Arahant (setting aside the possibility or otherwise of that happening), would they be recognisably different in actions and re-actions than others? I had this idea that an arahant should be charismatic, warm, lovable, supportive, forgiving, understanding, and compassionate - as well as enlightened and at peace. But - I have been reading 'Great Disciples of the Buddha' by Nyanaponika Thera and Hellmuth Hecker. I loved their chapters on Aananda: Guardian of the Dhamma and Saariputta: The Marshal of the Dhamma, and various other writings about the Great Women Disciples - and I'm now reading about Mahaakassapa: Father of the Sangha ... I find it very hard to understand this arahant's personality (among other things, he seems to have been publicly mean to Aananda and shown a jaundiced view of the Bhikkhunis on a number of occasions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30701 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Dear Christine, I once thought as you thought. It is difficult for lay people to know Arahats. One thing. Could you please clarify the last part of your post? Thanks in advance. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, If we were to meet an Arahant (setting aside the possibility or otherwise of that happening), would they be recognisably different in actions and re-actions than others? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is hard to say that external appearence can much support the possibility. Except The Buddha, any other Arahats carry their habit. This means that if they walk fast they will still have the habit of that walking. When a bottle of spirit is poured out all its content (all defilement ), there still left smell. When a bottle of water is poured out all its content ( all defilement ), there is nothing left. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: ..and I'm now reading about Mahaakassapa: Father of the Sangha ... I find it very hard to understand this arahant's personality (among other things, he seems to have been publicly mean to Aananda and shown a jaundiced view of the Bhikkhunis on a number of occasions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I am not clear the last sentence. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30702 From: Philip Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:03am Subject: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hello All. The "Buddhist Dictionary" passage Jon includes covers the "abandoning" side of the coin, but only hints at "developing" I'm curious to know more about "develop." I've wondered about this word before, because it is often used by Ajaan Chah in "develop the mind" (Or, should I say, Thanissaro Bhikku uses it when translating.) "Develop" sounds so active, even more active than the "cultivate" I usually use when talking about Brahma-Viharas. Jon: > As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. I don't understand this. If possible, could Jon or someone provide a corresponding explanation from that dictionary for "develop," or your own thoughts on the real meaning of the word? I think it's quite important. I think my confusion may lie in the translation. I've noticed that TB's translation of the Dhammapada sometimes contains very active, punchy language that I like but is not found in such an active form in other translations. (I assume he is the translator of the sutta passage below) That could be dangerous for someone like myself who already tends to lean towards the idea of a self which is used with awareness as actor even while being extinguished through one's practice. Thanks, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Thanks for the sutta quote [see below]. You ask: > "Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta?" > > Not at all. But note that the words of the sutta do not go on to > explain what is meant here by 'abandon' and 'develop' or, to put it > another way, how the 'abandoning' or 'development' in question is to > be accomplished. > > In my view it would be a mistake to assume that these terms are > intended to carry their normal everyday meaning. We need to bring to > bear what is said elsewhere in the Tipitaka, particularly in the > commentary to this sutta (not available in English, unfortunately) to > get a correct picture. This is a good example of what is referred to > in the texts as a 'teaching in brief'. > > As to the sort of thing that might be intended here, Nyanatiloka's > 'Buddhist Dictionary' states that, according to the Patisambhida > Magga , 'abandoning' or 'overcoming' (pahaana) is of 5 kinds: > > "pahána: 'overcoming', abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: > (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahána), i.e. the > temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nú"arana) during the > absorptions, > (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahána), > (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahána), > (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahána), > (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahána)." > > I have pasted below the detailed description of each kind of > abandoning given in the entry. As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. > > Jon > > From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > (1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of > adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nú"arana), etc., > through this or that mental concentration (samádhi), just as a pot > thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.... > (2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this > or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of > knowledge belonging to insight (vipassan?E, just as a lighted lamp > dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the > personality-belief (sakkáyaditthi) is overcome by determining the > mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of > existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of > eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness > by contemplation of misery.... > (3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path the fetters and other > evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by > lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by > destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.). > (4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into > the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, > are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the > 'overcoming by tranquillization'. > (5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and > Nibbána" > (Pts.M. I. 27). > > --- "Egberdina " wrote: > > Hi Jon and Howard, > ... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html > > > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what > > is > > unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, > > I > > would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it > > is > > possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what > > is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were > > conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what > > is > > unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is > > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is > > unskillful.' > > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > > would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is > > possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what > > is > > skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive > > to > > harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' > > But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to > > benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" > ... > > > > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? > > > 30703 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:10am Subject: Band of Brothers Hi all I was watching the Band of Brothers, the maiming, the killing and the untoll suffering that men suffered during the war. At one point, it seems it was too much for me to bear. I sympathise many of them who die without knowing the dhamma. IMHO what a waste to loss these precious human lives. It reminds me of the fragility of being a human and you do not know when you are going to die. It really touches me that we should consider more dhammas because we dont konw when we are next. It arouse me to be more compassionate to others, to love each other as like our brothers. It makes me think if there isn't Buddha here in the first place, we would have die blindly, without knowing the way to the deathless. I wish they would have know even a little bit of dhamma, it would have been worthwhile being a human, sowing the seed of panna for the benefits for happines for a long time to come or countless lives to come. I hope, in their next life, they would know the dhamma, arouse zeal to tread the path and end their suffering in the samasara. And this I would remember for a long time to come. This reminds me of Buddha last word "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" So much wisdom yet so hard to penetrate the meaning. Just sharing my thoughts Ken O 30704 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:33am Subject: The strength of Form Hi all Another of sharing of thought. In MN Sutta 115 - The Greater Discourse of Voidness. Buddha "I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair in one who lusts for it and takes delight in it" MN Sutta 125. The Grade of the Tamed Buddha [Aggivessana, how is it possible that Prince Jayasena, living in the midst of sensual pleasure, enjoying sensual pleasures, being devoured by thoughts of sensual pleasures, being consumed by the fever of sensual pleasure, bent on the search for sensual pleasure, could know, see, or realize which must be known through renunciation, seen through renunciation, attained through renunciation realized through renunciation. That is impossible.] It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual pleasure especially to the alluring and enticing of form. Most of the time without realising that I have been too captivated by them. Such is the dukkha that form creates. Ken O 30705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 62 Hi Larry, thanks for questions. op 27-02-2004 23:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 62: "Its function is to display intention." > > L: Does "intention" = "meaning"? Can we translate "what do you mean" > into "what is your intention"? Is the meaning of a concept an intention? N: In Pali: adhippaaya: 1. intention, wish, desire. 2. sense, meaning, conclusion, inference. It includes all those things. Certainly also meaning in conventional language, anything you want to convey by speech. Don't we do this all the time? But we have an idea of my voice, my speech. Only rupas knocking together and cittas that motivate speech. Phenomena rolling on by conditions. And also intention, yes, cetana that may be kusala or akusala. Akusala kamma is performed by wrong speech, slandering, etc. Before we realize it, the harsh word jumped out of our mouth! So it seems. Whatan amount of evil is done by speech. The Buddha compared the tongue to an ax. And the speaker cuts himself by it. He will bear the consequences. L: 62: "Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration > (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes > that occurrence in speech utterance which mode and alteration are a > condition for the knocking together of clung-to matter." > > L: Can we say that the air that passes over the vocal cords is earth > element, not air element? The apparent movement is air element. N: It is different. Earth element knocks together with earth element. This produces the rupa that is sound in speech. We call it vocal cords in conventional languige, but actually, there is concussion of hardness with hardness. We can call it sound base. Thus, in bodily intimation the element of wind (air) plays its specific part, and in verbal intimation the element of earth plays its specific part. As to concussion of earth with earth making a sound: this also happens outside the body. (rupas out there). And also noise inside the body: the sound nonad: the pure octad + sound. This does not originate from citta. L: "the knocking together of clung-to matter" Is there any special significance to this term "clung-to matter"? Is it more clung-to than other matter? N: clung-to or grasped at: upaadi.n.na: this is used all over in the Dhammasangani, and it refers in particular to rupa produced by kamma. Eyesense, etc are clung to, produced by kamma. Co to Abh. Sangaha, Exposition T.A, (p. 233): and also (p. 226): Note: also the lips play their part in articulation. Many conditions involved. But clung to is also used in a wider sense: all rupas of the body. It can also refer to nama. What we call vocal cord are rupas produced by kamma. I see here Expositor: I, p. 115 (no 87): Grasped at by kamma is a translation of upadi.n.na. But when we say soundbase, there are many groups of rupa involved, also rupas produced by nutrition and temperature. L: Also, it seems there are many intentions involved in intimation. One is > a purely functional one of making the right gesture or sound. This is > most apparent when speaking a foreign language or with loss of memory. N: See above. Any speaking is done by verbal intimation, also a foreign language, why not? it is natural speech in daily life. We try to convey a meaning. Loss of memory? My father has this, but he still speaks, having the intention to convey a meaning, though it is at times confused to us. If someone utters a sound with difficulty, this is because the great Elements that are produced by temperature and nutrition are unsuitable. These have to support the groups produced by kamma that we call soundbase. Hence there are not the right conditions for uttering sound in a natural way and with ease. Well, aging is a cause for this. L: This intention is distinct from the intention that may be involved in > the "message" of the intimation and the "agenda" behind the message. Are > all of these intentions included in the intimation scenario? N: Yes. Nina. P.S. I am looking at the Pali and need some time to translate and looking at the note which is also part of the Tiika. 30706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi Howard, Kom, James, op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Thank you Nina for taking the time and making the effort to give such > a detailed reply. Very kind of you. N: Thanks, but behind your kind words I still feel doubt lingering! So, I asked Lodewijk. Our dialogue: L: You and other people often give the *impression* that listening alone is sufficient, but there is more. All kinds of good deeds should be performed. N: People will say, also other religions teach this. L: So what? N: But by the Dhamma we learn to have less clinging to the self. L: What we should do is all included in the Perfections. The Buddha practised all kinds of good deeds, such as dana: he gave away his eyes. He practised metta, all kinds of good deeds. N: And at the same time he developed right understanding of realities. L: We should not exclude any kind of kusala. Lest there be a misunderstanding you should explain that also samatha is included. And that samatha does not necessarily has to be practised to the degree of jhana. N: Yes, there are four meditations for daily life: Recollection of the Buddha, Metta, Loathsomeness of the Body and Death. I am a layperson, and I find that these Recollections can arise naturally in my life. When I am with my father, I do not find it difficult to inwardly pay respect to the Buddha, or, when I send or get my Email. I do not expect anything from such moments of samatha, and I do not think of creating conditions for vipassana, or that I *have* to do this. But when such moments arise they can sometimes remind me of characteristics of nama and rupa. But, not yet a clear distinction between them. L: You should also explain that A. Sujin is not against jhana, but that she explains that we should not underestimate its difficulty, especially in this time, when we are further away from the Buddha's time. And that she stresses that the citta which practises samatha should be discerned. N: Yes, this is so important. We had so many mails about this subject and I do not like to argue so much about this subject. L: Vipassana is for daily life, it is not sitting, slow walking, no need to go to vipassana centers. ***** This was our dialogue. Thus, not only listening. Also: carefully discriminating the different cittas arising in daily life, and beginning to be aware of nama and rupa in daily life. Yes, in the midst of daily life, when we do our chores, go shopping, and perform all kinds of kusala, the perfections. And also: when akusala cittas arise: not pushing them away, but learning their characteristics. I agree with James, that moments of samatha in daily life is mini, a mere nothing, especially compared to the mass of akusala cittas. Lobha and mana easily arising in between. But it is against my character to sit for a long time and force myself to meditation. Then also akusala would come in: aversion, or when there is a long time of meditation: lobha or conceit. For me every thing should arise naturally. I considered: Satipatthana is the greatest respect to the Buddha. Satipatthana does not obstruct what we are doing, cittas are so fast. I wish Kom could add something about listening. He spoke wise words to me, saying that just reading and studying is not enough, and that he found that listening to tapes did make a difference. He has a very busy daily life. Our life is study with action. I said to Lodewijk, this is similar to the Benedictan: ora et labora. They are working and meditating (well, take ora not as praying but meditating, that is what it is). Lodewijk: Not: ora sive (or) labora, but ora *et* labora, meditate and work. This is only a comparison. Nina. P.S. to James: I have no problem with the article you quoted. The arahat monks who are endowed with jhana and supernatural powers deserve our highest respect. This is in the suttas! 30707 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi James, > I think you are downplaying the importance of jhana far too much. > Consider this information: ... No doubt, the Buddha places arahats who are released both ways in higher regard than arahats who are released through wisdom. I have no doubt about this point. http://www.bps. lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/070-kitagiri-e1. htm Bhikkhus, there are seven persons evident in the world: What seven: those released both ways, released through wisdom, those with body witness, those come to righteousness of view, those released in faith, those living according to the Teaching, and those living according to faith. Bhikkhus, who is released both ways: Here bhikkhus, a certain person experiences with the body those immaterial attainments and also with wisdom sees the destruction of desires. To such a one is said released both ways. Bhikkhus, to such ones, I do not say abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. Bhikkhus, who is released through wisdom? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience those immaterial attainments with the body, seeing with wisdom his desires are destroyed. To this one is said, released through wisdom. Bhikkhus, to such a one too I do not say, abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. Regards, Swee Boon 30708 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James (and Jeff) - I basically agree with all you say in the following, James. I would just add that there are approaches to meditating - mindfulness of the breath is one, mindfulness of bodily sensations another, and Ch'an silent illumination a third, I believe - that can lead to in-tandem development of samatha and vipasssana. These can lead to the jhanas in the traditional fully absorbed sense, or to investigation of dhammas within access concentration, or to a kind of jhana in which mindfulness and clarity are so powerfully strong that investigation of dhammas can be intermixed with the jhanic calm. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/28/04 2:04:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Jeff, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > >Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good > example of > >where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like > the > >Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit > about the results > >of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the > confusion lies in > >a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, > however it > >is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four > results of > >the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > > > >How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same > practice > >path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single > practice path > >which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is > mindfulness > >of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right > mindfulness is > >absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, > mindfulness (sati), a > >pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see > things as they > >are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane > abilities. > > > >Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I > have found > >that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me > purely as a > >consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro > Bhikkhus > >article I believe supports the belief that there is only one > practice path with > >four fruits. > > > >Excellent work. Best regards, > > > >Jeff Brooks > > Hehehe…now, I am really finding this funny. Here you are stating > that there is only one path of practice, basically jhana; and over > here we have Thanissaro writing that there is only one path of > practice, basically vipassana. Maybe you two should get together and > make up your minds? ;-)) > > I think this is a classic example of how people are going to read > exactly what they want to read. > > So, Jeff, is this enough proof that there are in fact two different > types of practices or are you going to come back and tell me that > this sutta doesn't say what it clearly says? ;-)) > > Metta, James > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30710 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:28am Subject: White & Red Lotus Recluse Sutta Hi Group, http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas06.htm How, monks, is a person a white lotus recluse (samanapundaríka)? Here, monks, with the destruction of the cankers a monk here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realised it for himself with direct knowledge. Yet he does not dwell experiencing the eight deliverances with his body. Thus, monks, a person is a white lotus recluse. And how, monks, is a person a red lotus recluse (samanapaduma)? Here monks, with the destruction of the cankers a monk here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realised it for himself with direct knowledge. And he dwells experiencing the eight deliverances with his body. Thus, monks, a person is a red lotus recluse. [A.ii,87] Is there an online version of this "Putta Sutta"? Regards, Swee Boon 30711 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hi Jeff, > "...then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in > terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are > neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of > dissatisfaction (dukkha)." Thanks very much. I find this translation much easier to understand. Regards, Swee Boon 30712 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Jeff) - > > I basically agree with all you say in the following, James. I would > just add that there are approaches to meditating - mindfulness of the breath is > one, mindfulness of bodily sensations another, and Ch'an silent illumination a > third, I believe - that can lead to in-tandem development of samatha and > vipasssana. These can lead to the jhanas in the traditional fully absorbed sense, > or to investigation of dhammas within access concentration, or to a kind of > jhana in which mindfulness and clarity are so powerfully strong that > investigation of dhammas can be intermixed with the jhanic calm. > > With metta, > Howard That could be; I don't know. I think that whenever jhana and vipassana are `developed' in tandem that means that the meditator will switch from one to the other throughout the practice. The point is that there is nothing especially calming about seeing formations arise and pass away. That isn't calming. It is only calming to focus the mind on a single object. When that calm is established, then the true nature of the object can be investigated with calm or the five aggregates can be investigated with calm. I don't think that they both can be developed at the same time, but if you have been able to do that please teach me how!! ;-) Metta, James 30713 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hi Sarah, Thanks very much for your kind posting! Regards, Swee Boon 30714 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] The strength of Form Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/04 6:34:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > In MN Sutta 115 - The Greater Discourse of Voidness. > Buddha "I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the > change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief and despair in one who lusts for it and > takes delight in it" > ========================= Just as an aside, Ken, I note something in this quote that relates to a matter discussed from time to time on this and other lists - namely whether the khandhas are, in themselves, causative of dissatisfaction and grief, or only khandhas afflicted by clinging are so causative. My position is the latter, and I think that the words "in one who lusts for it and takes delight in it" constitute support for that position. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30715 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, Kom, James, > op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: "L: You should also explain that A. Sujin is not against jhana, but that she explains that we should not underestimate its difficulty, especially in this time, when we are further away from the Buddha's time. And that she stresses that the citta which practises samatha should be discerned. N: Yes, this is so important. We had so many mails about this subject and I do not like to argue so much about this subject." James: I'm sorry Nina if I have been causing you or anyone else distress (I sense that I have been causing a lot of distress… especially my posts about Thanissaro :-(( but this is an important matter. We are all faced with the questions: How are we supposed to practice? What are we supposed to do? What are the right conditions? What is possible in terms of setting up the right conditions? What is a monk/nun capable of accomplishing as opposed to a householder? What is anyone capable of accomplishing in modern times as opposed to the Buddha's time? These are all questions that swirl around in the minds of those who hear and feel a calling to a more spiritual life. One person will say one thing and get a group of people who agree; then someone else will say something different and then a different group of people will agree. These groups will clash and fight over these viewpoints because, even though the members are spiritually-minded, they are not released from the taints. Some members will get disgusted with this unspiritual display and leave in disgust-but they will soon learn that it isn't any better anywhere else, and eventually return to find the answer. So, what is the answer? What is the solution? What is the refuge? The refuge is the Triple Gem: The Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. The refuge isn't K. Sujin, it isn't me, it isn't you, it isn't Lodewijk or Sarah. The refuge is only the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. That's it. So, what did the Buddha say about this subject? What is the Buddha's dhamma? Did he say that householders can't practice jhana? Did he say that householders shouldn't practice jhana? No. Here is what he said: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion": Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) Thus should you train yourselves." When he heard this, the Venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: "It is wonderful, Lord! It is marvelous, Lord! How well spoken was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." "Good, good, Sariputta!" (The Buddha then repeats the Venerable Sariputta's words in full.) Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. So, Nina, it seems to me that K. Sujin is mistaken when she teaches householders that they can't and shouldn't practice jhana. She is pandering to what they want to hear, removing them from personal responsibility, and setting up an atmosphere leading to failure. Metta, James 30716 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi, Nina (and Kom, James, and especially Lodewijk) - In a message dated 2/28/04 9:17:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, Kom, James, > op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Thank you Nina for taking the time and making the effort to give such > >a detailed reply. Very kind of you. > N: Thanks, but behind your kind words I still feel doubt lingering! So, I > asked Lodewijk. > Our dialogue: > L: You and other people often give the *impression* that listening alone is > sufficient, but there is more. All kinds of good deeds should be performed. > N: People will say, also other religions teach this. > L: So what? > N: But by the Dhamma we learn to have less clinging to the self. > L: What we should do is all included in the Perfections. The Buddha > practised all kinds of good deeds, such as dana: he gave away his eyes. He > practised metta, all kinds of good deeds. > N: And at the same time he developed right understanding of realities. > L: We should not exclude any kind of kusala. Lest there be a > misunderstanding you should explain that also samatha is included. > And that samatha does not necessarily has to be practised to the degree of > jhana. > N: Yes, there are four meditations for daily life: Recollection of the > Buddha, Metta, Loathsomeness of the Body and Death. I am a layperson, and I > find that these Recollections can arise naturally in my life. When I am with > my father, I do not find it difficult to inwardly pay respect to the Buddha, > or, when I send or get my Email. I do not expect anything from such moments > of samatha, and I do not think of creating conditions for vipassana, or that > I *have* to do this. But when such moments arise they can sometimes remind > me of characteristics of nama and rupa. But, not yet a clear distinction > between them. > L: You should also explain that A. Sujin is not against jhana, but that she > explains that we should not underestimate its difficulty, especially in this > time, when we are further away from the Buddha's time. And that she stresses > that the citta which practises samatha should be discerned. > N: Yes, this is so important. We had so many mails about this subject and I > do not like to argue so much about this subject. > L: Vipassana is for daily life, it is not sitting, slow walking, no need to > go to vipassana centers. > ***** > This was our dialogue. Thus, not only listening. Also: carefully > discriminating the different cittas arising in daily life, and beginning to > be aware of nama and rupa in daily life. Yes, in the midst of daily life, > when we do our chores, go shopping, and perform all kinds of kusala, the > perfections. And also: when akusala cittas arise: not pushing them away, but > learning their characteristics. > I agree with James, that moments of samatha in daily life is mini, a mere > nothing, especially compared to the mass of akusala cittas. Lobha and mana > easily arising in between. But it is against my character to sit for a long > time and force myself to meditation. Then also akusala would come in: > aversion, or when there is a long time of meditation: lobha or conceit. For > me every thing should arise naturally. I considered: Satipatthana is the > greatest respect to the Buddha. Satipatthana does not obstruct what we are > doing, cittas are so fast. > I wish Kom could add something about listening. He spoke wise words to me, > saying that just reading and studying is not enough, and that he found that > listening to tapes did make a difference. He has a very busy daily life. > Our life is study with action. > I said to Lodewijk, this is similar to the Benedictan: ora et labora. They > are working and meditating (well, take ora not as praying but meditating, > that is what it is). > Lodewijk: Not: ora sive (or) labora, but ora *et* labora, meditate and work. > This is only a comparison. > Nina. > P.S. to James: > I have no problem with the article you quoted. The arahat monks who are > endowed with jhana and supernatural powers deserve our highest respect. This > is in the suttas! > ============================ Thank you very much for this follow-up, Nina. So, good, not just listening! And three cheers for Lodewijk!! My only reservation: With regard to "Vipassana is for daily life, it is not sitting, slow walking, no need to go to vipassana centers," I agree that vipassana bhavana is for daily life, but it is also very much for calmed, restricted contexts such as sitting meditation, (slow) walking meditation, and the intensive practice to be found at retreats. If one engages in some of these, experience will show their great worth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30717 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James - In a message dated 2/28/04 11:28:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > That could be; I don't know. I think that whenever jhana and > vipassana are `developed' in tandem that means that the meditator > will switch from one to the other throughout the practice. The point > is that there is nothing especially calming about seeing formations > arise and pass away. That isn't calming. It is only calming to > focus the mind on a single object. When that calm is established, > then the true nature of the object can be investigated with calm or > the five aggregates can be investigated with calm. I don't think > that they both can be developed at the same time, but if you have > been able to do that please teach me how!! ;-) > > ========================== I forget whether you ever attended a 10-day Goenka retreat. If not, it is a wonderful thing to do. It was my unmistakable experience there that calm does not require focus on a single object. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30718 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo Hi Philip, Thanks, useful you quoted from UP, it reminds me too. And it is all about what we are discussing now, listening, only that? Or more? What else, what else. I like this: > something we should do, different from what we are doing right >> now. It seems so much just part of life, the study, the >> considering, the moments when there is direct awareness; It all >> goes together, and each assists the development of the others.> This is how I feel, and I tried to explain it to Howard. It seems that we are lazy, doing nothing, waiting for understanding to develop. If we would be passive listeners, yes, than we would be lazy. It is by considering again and again that panna develops over the long years. Nina op 28-02-2004 01:23 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: >> Dear Venerable Dhammapiyo, >> Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. >> I find it not easy to talk about the practice as if it were >> something we should do, different from what we are doing right >> now. It seems so much just part of life, the study, the >> considering, the moments when there is direct awareness; It all >> goes together, and each assists the development of the others. >> Writing on the internet there are many reminders of the nature >> of realities, or reading the newspaper, the death and sorrow we >> read about remind me of the paticcasamupada (dependent >> origination) and how actually death is happening right now : the >> momentary death of a moment of seeing which falls away to be >> replaced by some other conditioned dhamma. 30719 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo Dear Robert, I quite agree: or thinking, or dosa, or painful feeling or pleasant feeling....> As to sati: it depends, sometimes I mind, but now this becomes less, I tend to think less about sati. It is better that way, lobha hinders. Nina. op 28-02-2004 03:45 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Hi Philip, > Glad you liked my little stroll in the woods. Please bring up old > posts anytime. > You wonder if my understanding changed since then?: only that I am > even more confident that insight is a matter of seeing what is here > and now, not trying to change things to be how we think they should > be. > 30720 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Band of Brothers Dear Ken Ong,and Christine, thank you for sharing your thoughts! We never consider enough dhammas, true. More compassion and love for others, it never is enough, as A. Sujin says. She acts as she speaks. Over the years I have seen her example. I meant to say, Christine, I liked very much what you eplained about the oncoming death re: we think we have time... This is a mediation on death indeed for daily life, at any time! Nina. op 28-02-2004 12:10 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > It really > touches me that we should consider more dhammas because we dont konw > when we are next. It arouse me to be more compassionate to others, > to love each other as like our brothers. It makes me think if there > isn't Buddha here in the first place, we would have die blindly, > without knowing the way to the deathless. 30721 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] The strength of Form Dear Ken O, You know that moment of renunciation arises when there is a moment of satipatthana: seeing lobha as just a conditioned nama, and you renounce it for that short moment. You attach less importance to it. You say:It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual pleasure. We cannot see these three characteristics before realizing nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Only during the later stages of insight can those be realized. Nina. op 28-02-2004 12:33 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > being consumed by the > fever of sensual pleasure, bent on the search for sensual pleasure, > could know, see, or realize which must be known through renunciation, > seen through renunciation, attained through renunciation realized > through renunciation. That is impossible.] > > It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual > pleasure especially to the alluring and enticing of form. Most of > the time without realising that I have been too captivated by them. > Such is the dukkha that form creates. 30722 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:22am Subject: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Dhamma Friends, While we are searching for necessary wisdom, that is trying to develop higher wisdom, we need good messages. On the other hand, we need to be careful not to be stuck in wrong view and wrong concept. The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. Absorption is not necessary to achieve Samma-Samadhi. If someone is in absorption, he will not be able to see impermanence, unsatifactoriness, and selflessness. So absorption cannot be Samma-Samadhi. Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane consciousness. Regarding consciousness there are 89 states of consciousness. Out of 89 cittas, 8 cittas that is 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas are supramundane consciousness. The Buddha preached these 8 cittas are supramundane consciousness. So there are 81 mundane consciousness. Out of 81 mundane consciousness, 54 cittas are kamacittas. So there are 27 jhana cittas left. All these 27 jhanacittas are mundane consciousness. 27 can be divided into 3 group. 9 Kiriyacittas which are jhanacittas of Arahats. 9 Jhana Rupavipka and Arupavipakacitta are resultant cittas of rupa brahmas and arupa brahmas. There left 9 Jhanacittas. These can be achieved by human. But they have to be born with tihetuka or triple-rooted patisandhicitta. Otherwise there will never be Jhanacitta in this very life. 9 Jhanacittas are 1. 1st Jhana rupakusalacitta 2. 2nd Jhana rupakusalacitta 3. 3rd Jhana rupakusalacitta 4. 4th Jhana rupakusalacitta 5. 5th Jhana rupakusalacitta 6. Akasanancayatana arupakusalacitta 7. Vinnanancayatana arupakusalacitta 8. Akincinnayatana arupakusalacitta 9. N'evasannanasannayatana arupakusalacitta All these 9 cittas are mundane consciousness. They are not lokuttaracitta. When absorbed, Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta cannot be seen. See in case of Baka Brahama who attacked The Buddha with Atta Vada. Jhanacittas or absorption are mundane consciousness. 1st Jhana has 5 jhanic factors. They are cetasika 1st Jhana_vitakka 2.vicara 3.piti 4.sukha vedana 5. ekaggata 2nd Jhana _vicara,piti, sukha vedana,ekaggata 3rd Jhana_piti, sukha vedana, ekaggata 4th Jhana_sukha vedana, ekaggata 5th Jhana_upekkha vedana , ekaggata 1st Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata 2nd Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata 3rd Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata 4th Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one of 7 factors of enlightenment. When these are not clear then the Path NEP that is Noble Eightfold Path will not be understood. I think the problem is misunderstanding of The Buddha language Pali. When Suttas are completely translated into other languages without any Pali words then deviation starts. Vitakka is applied thought or initial application. For example right now you ( the reader ) note the touch of air at your nostril. Now you have noted. That touch-consciousness is associated with vitakka. It is initial application or applied thought. It is not applied concentration. Vitakka is not concentration. Should you need any assistence please contact the following e-mail address. May all western Buddhists be free from contamination with wrong view and wrong concept. With Unlimited and Ananta Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30723 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 0:33pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hey Howard, Howard: I forget whether you ever attended a 10-day Goenka retreat. If not, it is a wonderful thing to do. It was my unmistakable experience there that calm does not require focus on a single object. James: Oh gosh, now do I have to pull out and flash my spiritual credentials? ;-) Sorry, no can do, my wallet was stolen here in Cairo. ;-)). Howard, this really doesn't answer my question. Are you saying that the only way to have calmness with vipassana is to attend a Goenka meditation retreat? Well, I might as well take up permanent residency at the Goenka Center! Maybe they have an opening for a bathroom attendant? ;-)) Seriously, one must be able to arouse calmness and tranquility at will, shortly after beginning the practice, no matter the location or circumstance, or there is no point. Sure, outside circumstances can generate calmness but why attend a Goenka retreat for that?? Might as well go to the Bahamas!!! ;-)) (Note: Though I do admire the teachings, techniques, and retreats of Goenka, I think that they are beneficial only for the beginner. If one stays too long in the `Goenka Technique', stagnation and dullness are bound to manifest. Moreover, his entire system doesn't encourage individual exploration and self-sufficient- ness. It is somewhat a `cookie-cutter' spirituality.) So, anyway, I ask again, without the outside prop of a Goenka Meditation Retreat, how is one supposed to generate calm and tranquility from the developing of insight into suffering and stress?? ;-)) (Am I the only one who recognizes the irony of such a goal?) Metta, James 30724 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 0:48pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi, Christine, I think the behaviour of the arahants is still going to be influenced by their past habits (vaasanaa?) so what might seem wrong to me wouldn't really be. Only a (Sammaasam?) Buddha eradicates these kinds of behaviour. peace, connie 30725 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 0:51pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Christine and Connie (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, Christine, > I think the behaviour of the arahants is still going to be influenced by > their past habits (vaasanaa?) so what might seem wrong to me wouldn't > really be. Only a (Sammaasam?) Buddha eradicates these kinds of > behaviour. > peace, > connie Hi Connie!! (BTW, I love the picture of you in the tree! It is really cool. ;-)). Connie, I agree with you. I have no idea what the Pali means that you are using, but I think I agree. ;-)) Christine, I would recommend that you check out the sutta AN 115 "Five Routes of Escape" where the Buddha described how the aspiring arahant is supposed to eliminate the remaining traces of the five defilements before attaining the final goal of liberation. I would guess that if one doesn't do these procedures before the accomplishment of liberation it wouldn't be possible to go back and do them since all actions of the arahant wouldn't generate kamma??? Not entirely sure about that since it involves `underlying tendencies'. Maybe Nina could speak to this? Metta, James 30726 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James - In a message dated 2/28/04 3:36:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hey Howard, > > Howard: I forget whether you ever attended a 10-day Goenka retreat. > If not, it is a wonderful thing to do. It was my unmistakable > experience there that calm does not require focus on a single object. > > James: Oh gosh, now do I have to pull out and flash my spiritual > credentials? ;-) Sorry, no can do, my wallet was stolen here in > Cairo. ;-)). Howard, this really doesn't answer my question. Are > you saying that the only way to have calmness with vipassana is to > attend a Goenka meditation retreat? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of *course* I'm not saying that. I don't know why you would think so. I'm just pointing to a context in which the point became clear to me. Actually, whenever I meditate in that fashion, or in a choiceless-awareness fashion, not focussing on "one thing", but non-selectively on whatever arises, I find that great calm arises - and I don't need to be at a retreat for that. (I was merely replying to your words "The point is that there is nothing especially calming about seeing formations arise and pass away. That isn't calming. It is only calming to focus the mind on a single object.") ---------------------------------------------------------- Well, I might as well take up > > permanent residency at the Goenka Center! Maybe they have an opening > for a bathroom attendant? ;-)) > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As you wish! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, one must be able to arouse > > calmness and tranquility at will, shortly after beginning the > practice, no matter the location or circumstance, or there is no > point. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: No disagreement here. --------------------------------------------------- Sure, outside circumstances can generate calmness but why > > attend a Goenka retreat for that?? Might as well go to the > Bahamas!!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: It wasn't a matter of "outside circumstances". It was a matter of intensive practice. (And it was my first experience with such intensive meditation practice.) But being at a retreat was not my point. It happens that I first realized there that calm can arise while attending non-selectively to whatever arises, rather than to a fixed meditation object. However, that observation has become a regular and common one for me since then, and that was years ago. ----------------------------------------------------- > (Note: Though I do admire the teachings, techniques, > and retreats of Goenka, I think that they are beneficial only for the > beginner. If one stays too long in the `Goenka Technique', > stagnation and dullness are bound to manifest. Moreover, his entire > system doesn't encourage individual exploration and self-sufficient- > ness. It is somewhat a `cookie-cutter' spirituality.) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I just don't know. I attended only one Goenka retreat, years ago. Since then I've done considerable "experimentation," recently adopting the silent illumination style of Ch'an meditation that I did "naturally" as a child. I find it lovely in many ways. ------------------------------------------------------ > > So, anyway, I ask again, without the outside prop of a Goenka > Meditation Retreat, how is one supposed to generate calm and > tranquility from the developing of insight into suffering and > stress?? ;-)) (Am I the only one who recognizes the irony of such a > goal?) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I can't tell you *why* that happens, but I can tell you *that* it happens. Of course, during formal sessions, a layer of calm develops early on. But I find that even when not "in meditation", awareness of things as they are leads away from stress. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, James > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30727 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Howard, Howard: Well, of *course* I'm not saying that. I don't know why you would think so. I'm just pointing to a context in which the point became clear to me. James: I am just playing with you, Howard. Don't take me so seriously!! ;-)) Howard: Well, I just don't know. I attended only one Goenka retreat, years ago. Since then I've done considerable "experimentation," recently adopting the silent illumination style of Ch'an meditation that I did "naturally" as a child. I find it lovely in many ways. James: Good, I am just recommending that no one stick to the Goenka Technique forever. It is limiting in a lot of ways. I won't go into that now since I have already done my share of tearing down icons lately! ;-)) Howard: I can't tell you *why* that happens, but I can tell you *that* it happens. James: Okay, then perhaps you are bound to be a pacekka-buddha. You can't help me. NEXT!! Hehehe… ;-)) Howard, I am not doubting or questioning your experience but if you cannot tell me how you achieve it, it is worthless to me. You can't expect me to be like you. Also, just wait and practice more, your calm may not last forever. Over the years I have had a lot of calm also, followed by distress, followed by calm, etc.…like going down through the different layers of the Earth. You may finally reach a point where it is just too darn hot to go forward anymore! If you do, don't hesitate to call me… but by then Jeff and I may be skipping around in our Jhana paradise too much to care! LOL! Metta, Me 30728 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James - In a message dated 2/28/04 4:22:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Also, just wait and practice more, your calm may not last forever. > Over the years I have had a lot of calm also, followed by distress, > followed by calm, etc.…like going down through the different layers > of the Earth. ========================= I certainly don't have perfect and consistent calm - far from it. I get angry at times, though not often and never powerfully or with any duration to it. Worry does arise from time to time, and sometimes fear, and often desire of one sort or another. But overall, much calm has come to me over the years as a result of Dhamma practice, some insight, and also a growing love for "sentient beings" that is an enormous joy to me. I don't know "where I am" on the path of practice, and it really doesn't matter all that much. All that matters to me in that regard is having gotten to the point of having tremendous confidence that this Dhamma of the Buddha's is the real thing. I am enormously grateful for it and enormously grateful to him - and for good friends in the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30729 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:41am Subject: The Seven factors of Enlightenment I believe I would not be wrong in saying that in Buddhism the Seven factors of Enlightenment are typically seen as the means or conditions of enlightenment (nibbana/nirvana). The question really is how does one cultivate them? From reading the suttas on meditation in the Pali canon it seems clear that the seven factors of enlightenment emerge as a consequence of the practice of mindfulness (sati). 1) Wisdom (panna/prajna) is often spoken of as cultivated through study and reflection of the teachings of the Buddha which are recorded in the Sutta/Sutra Pitaka, and the giving rise to insight (vipassana/vipashana). It is the insight component that is the abstract quality of wisdom (panna/prajna) that requires a contemplative practice to cultivate. I believe insight (vipassana/vipashana) is too often interpreted as an intellectual activity in which one reflects upon the "three marks" which are the inherent dissatisfaction (dukkha) of sensory objects, because they are impermanent (anicca), and we thus cling to them through self identification and objectification (anatta). But, since there is no evidence in the suttas (sutras) that the historic Buddha taught a meditation technique called "vipassana" and that vipassana means 'insight,' then I believe it is clear that insight (vipassana) is an attainment acquired through the contemplative practice regimen the Buddha taught, which was mindfulness (Sati). 2) Energy (viriya) literally means virility, and it is often interpreted as 'energy' or 'enthusiasm' for the practice. However, since various charismatic phenomena are characteristic of almost every mystic regardless of their cultural context, and the term currently in use for that range of phenomena is 'kundalini,' then I believe it is reasonable to translate 'viriya' as 'kundalini.' 3) Tranquillity (passaddhi) is a place in which the thought processes of the mind have come to rest, and the subject experiences a peaceful and relaxed state of mind. From the suttas/sutras we know tranquillity (passaddhi) is a prod uct of the third stage of absorption (jhana), and it seems to only be associated with the absorptions, therefore I believe it is reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks tranquillity. 4) Mindfulness (sati) is cultivated through the practice of meditation and concentration techniques. The Buddha described a suite of such techniques and they are recorded in three suttas, the Anapanasati sutta, the Satipatthana sutta and the Maha-satipatthana sutta, please see below for their URLs. 5) Equanimity (upekkha) is a subjective state or condition in which there is no longer a reaction in the mind of either 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant' to any sensory experience. At this point all sensory phenomena are accepted as is on face value. This state or condition is a product of the 4th stage of material absorption, therefore it seems reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks equanimity. 6) Ecstasy or bliss (piiti) is a state or condition of physical pleasure that is not "born of sense contact," or due to sensory stimulation. This state is typically a product of absorption, therefore it seems reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks bliss or ecstasy. 7) Absorption (samadhi or jhana) is a subjective state or condition in which the cognitive processes are under a relative degree of suspension. Under this condition the six above properties are characteristic manifestations, therefore it seems reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks the seven conditions that support enlightenment. The Seven factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga DN 22.16, n.689, 33.2.3(2): 1) Wisdom panna 2) Energy (kundalini) viriya 3) Tranquillity passaddhi 4) Awareness (mindfulness) sati 5) Equanimity upekkha 6) Ecstasy or bliss (Rapture) piiti 7) Absorption samadhi If you have not read the Buddha's three discourses on meditation (Sati), Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations of them are available online at these URLs: Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html I have rendered a few improvements in the translations of these suttas and they are also available online at the Jhana Support Group at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/files/ Best regards, Jeff Brooks 30730 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:52pm Subject: The powerful tendecy Hi all Recently, I realise that latent tendecy is powerful and arise in a person unknowlying. It conditioned much lobha, dosa and moha without one realising it. Tendency that has been condition in the past, will arise when one is not mindful and ardent. It catches one in the stream of samasara world, it swept away one in the flood of fetters. While I woke up this morning, I heard simple words like How are you or good morning, sounds polite may have tendecy involved. It may be attached to cultural values or societal values or value to show one is polite. Even simple reactions like, yah, I agree or I think this way, its good, could be a conditoned arise due to conceit that one think it is right. If it is not dhamma talk, remain silent, is a very powerful precept. It reminds one to look at consider or reflect our consciouness, to say this or to say that. While I was daydreaming in the morning, again, thoughts like I want to watch TV or lets read the newspaper is a condition of lobha. Even when I listening to a car moving sound, there is no pleasant or unpleasant but neutral feeling can be a source of tendecy. One does not aware that a sound which seem harmless to our sound consciouness can be a factor of conditioning of tendency if one does not seen them as anicca, anatta and dukkha,. It seems that too long I did not notice neutral feelings and in fact a lot of neutral feelings like looking at the tree can be the arisen of tendecy of lobha and moha. That is why I think satipatthana is very important, recognising them when it arise in our six senses. I tend to recognize pleasant and unpleasant, but I think lets not forget the neutral feeling that seem harmless can be a source of tendecy. This has been an enligtening experience and I owe it to one of my friend who condition me to see it. Such is a great gain for me and I wish to benefit my friend but I know my friend is not ready for dhamma :-(. Hence I just like to share with you. Keep consider dhamma ;-) Cheers! Ken O 30731 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:53pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Htoo Naing, > The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. I would say jhana attainment is one way of getting Samma-Samadhi. But it is not the only way. If it is the only way, why bother about the term 'Samma-Samadhi'; just saying 'Jhana' explicitly would make the job so much easier. > Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The > historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane > consciousness. Totally agree. To say that jhana is supramundane consciousness is making a mockery of the Buddha's achievements. > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > of 7 factors of enlightenment. Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. Regards, Swee Boon 30732 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:45pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo, and Swee Boon, Thanks for your post Htoo. There are different types of Samma- samadhi: there are the mundane jhanas that are a very high type of kusala and were developed by very wise men before the Buddha. These do not lead out of samsara but if one has mastery over them they can be base for insight. According to the commentaries only the very highest group of arahants had such mastery and these only existed during the first thousand years of the sasana. Now the only path available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. In the Majjhima Nikaaya I. Sallekhasutta.m ""Cunda, there are various views in the world centred around the self and the world, from whatever these views arise, from whatever these views trickle, from whatever these views behave, they are not mine, that is not I, they are not my self, to one who looks at them, as they really are, in this manner with right wisdom, these views get turned out, get dispelled. . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, purifying should be done thus: Others will be hurters, we will be non-hurters. Others will be with wrong view, we will be with right view. Others will speak wrong words, we will speak right words. . Others will be with wrong knowledge, we will be with right knowledge. Others will be released wrong, we will be rightfully released. Others will bear a grudge, we will have no grudge. . Others will be merciless, we will be merciful. Others will be stuborn, we will not be stuborn. Cunda, just as for the uneven path, there is an alternative even path, for the uneven ford there is an alternative even ford. . For wrong view, the alternate is right view.For wrong thoughts, the alternate is right thoughts. For wrong knowledge, the alternate is right knowledge. For wrong release, the alternate is right release. For holding to views tenaciously, the alternate is giving up views with ease. Cunda, just as merit could rise up stepping down all demerit, in the same manner the hurter could rise up.not hurting. The destroyer of life, could rise up abstaining from it. The taker of what is not given, could rise up abstaining from it. And the one holdling to his views tenaciously could rise up by giving up views easily. .""" RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. > > I would say jhana attainment is one way of getting Samma-Samadhi. > But it is not the only way. If it is the only way, why bother > about the term 'Samma-Samadhi'; just saying 'Jhana' explicitly > would make the job so much easier. > > > Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The > > historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane > > consciousness. > > Totally agree. To say that jhana is supramundane consciousness is > making a mockery of the Buddha's achievements. > > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. > > Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30733 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:33pm Subject: The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Group, Below I list some of the benefits of jhanas that I know of. If there is anything to add, please do so. 1. As a means of acquiring Right Concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html 2. To obtain a pleasant abiding in the here and now. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html 3. As the foundation for the acquiring of the 5 mundane abhinnas. 4. As the basis for the contemplation of insight leading to the destruction of the effluents, the only supramundane abhinna. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html 5. To attain to the highest meditative state of the cessation of perception & feeling, achievable only by arahats and anagamis who are proficient in all the eight rupa and arupa jhanas. This is also known as the eighth emancipation/deliverance/release, which was demonstrated by the Buddha just before his parinibbana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html Regards, Swee Boon 30734 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Robert, This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you have given. Here is a better one: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html Notice the Buddha's final instruction here: "There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you." Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in regard to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize whatever we do or don't do. Larry ----------------------- Robert: "Dear Htoo, and Swee Boon, Thanks for your post Htoo. There are different types of Samma- samadhi: there are the mundane jhanas that are a very high type of kusala and were developed by very wise men before the Buddha. These do not lead out of samsara but if one has mastery over them they can be base for insight. According to the commentaries only the very highest group of arahants had such mastery and these only existed during the first thousand years of the sasana. Now the only path available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. In the Majjhima Nikaaya I. Sallekhasutta.m ""Cunda, there are various views in the world centred around the self and the world, from whatever these views arise, from whatever these views trickle, from whatever these views behave, they are not mine, that is not I, they are not my self, to one who looks at them, as they really are, in this manner with right wisdom, these views get turned out, get dispelled. . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, purifying should be done thus: Others will be hurters, we will be non-hurters. Others will be with wrong view, we will be with right view. Others will speak wrong words, we will speak right words. . Others will be with wrong knowledge, we will be with right knowledge. Others will be released wrong, we will be rightfully released. Others will bear a grudge, we will have no grudge. . Others will be merciless, we will be merciful. Others will be stuborn, we will not be stuborn. Cunda, just as for the uneven path, there is an alternative even path, for the uneven ford there is an alternative even ford. . For wrong view, the alternate is right view.For wrong thoughts, the alternate is right thoughts. For wrong knowledge, the alternate is right knowledge. For wrong release, the alternate is right release. For holding to views tenaciously, the alternate is giving up views with ease. Cunda, just as merit could rise up stepping down all demerit, in the same manner the hurter could rise up.not hurting. The destroyer of life, could rise up abstaining from it. The taker of what is not given, could rise up abstaining from it. And the one holdling to his views tenaciously could rise up by giving up views easily. .""" RobertK" 30735 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Larry, I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; can you show me where it is wrong. ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in regard > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize > whatever we do or don't do. "" Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like this. Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you have > given. Here is a better one: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html > 30736 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Larry, and Rob, Larry, this is a perfectly well accepted translation. It is by Sister Upalavanna, and is posted on many websites. The original source was Metta Net, Sri Lanka, http://www.metta.lk I have seen this sutta on Binh Ansons website. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/008-salleka-sutta-e1.htm Robert is strictly honest and painstakingly careful in his discussions of the Dhamma and your allusions are completely mistaken. Perhaps you are tired or wrote a little hastily? Robert - there are different cultures even within the English speaking nations - and New Zealand and America have different standards of what is discourteous and what is allowable in discussions. It would be a great loss to this group if you should leave, and, selfishly, a loss for me as well, as I learn so much from you - you are responsible for many of us joining dsg in the first place, and I'm sure you've written a high percentage of the Useful Posts. Misunderstandings are just that, and can be cleared away with goodwill. Please reconsider. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Larry, > I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; > can you show me where it is wrong. > > ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in > regard > > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize > > whatever we do or don't do. "" > > Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any > comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say > which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems > whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like this. > Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. > RobertK > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you > have > > given. Here is a better one: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html > > 30737 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Robert, Please don't leave. I was just reacting to this interminable discussion on jhana which has been going on for years. I was getting tired of both sides of the debate. Plus I really thought this translation was odd. However, you are by far the better judge of translations, so I leave that to you. I sincerely regret if I offended you. Larry 30738 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:07am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.1, § 2.2 Dear Group, There are 10 fetters (Samyojana) tying beings to the wheel of existence, namely: (1) personality-belief (sakkaaya-ditthi) (2) sceptical doubt (vicikicchaa) (3) clinging to mere rules and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa; s.upaadaana) (4) sensuous craving (kaama-raaga) (5) ill-will (vyaapaada) (6) craving for fine-material existence (ruupa-raga) (7) craving for immaterial existence (aruupa-raaga) (8) conceit (mana) (9) restlessess (uddhacca) (10) ignorance (avijjaa) The first five of these are called 'lower fetters' as they tie to the sensuous world. The latter five are called the 'higher fetters' as they tie to the 'higher worlds', i.e. the fine-material and immaterial world. (Nyanatiloka) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered § 2.1. "There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters." [AN X.13] § 2.2. "There are in this community of monks, monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three Fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening... "There are... monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters and the thinning out of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners. After returning only once to this world they will put an end to stress... "There are... monks who, with the total ending of the first five of the Fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world... "There are... monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis." [MN 118] 30739 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Rob K I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your contribution to the list. Jon --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Larry, > I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; > can you show me where it is wrong. > > ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in > > regard > > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to > rationalize > > whatever we do or don't do. "" > > Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any > comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say > which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems > whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like this. > > Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. > RobertK 30740 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:47am Subject: SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Dear Group, In the Samyutta Corner - we're up to Chapter VI '6 Brahmasamyutta' Connected Discourses with Brahmaas. Not being familiar with Brahmaas, I checked in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. "brahma-káyika-deva: The 'heavenly beings of the Brahma-world' inhabit the first 3 heavens of the fine-material world, (rúpaloka), corresponding to the 1st absorption (jhána, q.v.). The highest ruler of them is called the Great Brahma (Mahá-Brahmá). With caustic humor he is said (D. 11) to pretend: "I am Brahma, the Great Brahmá, the Most High, the Invincible One, the Omniscient One, the Ruler, the Lord, the Creator, the Maker, the Perfect One, the Preserver, the Controller, the Father of all that was and will be." Cf. deva (II. 1- 3)." There is a faint echo of something here from my Christian past... Could it really be that the God of the theists is the being Brahma suffering from delusion, but eventually to pass away and be reborn in less august circles? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request (excerpt) "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Uruvelaa on the bank of the river Nera~njaraa at t he foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree just after he had become fully enlightened. Then, while the Blessed One was alone in seclusion, a reflection arose in his mind thus: "This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in adhesion, takes delight in adhesion, rejoices in adhesion. [363] For such a generation this state is hard to see, that is specific conditionality, dependent origination. And this state too is hard to see, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana. [364] If I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not undersand me, that would be wearisome for me, that would be troublesome." Thereupon these astounding verses, not heard before inthe past, occurred to the Blessed One: "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. "Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will nevr see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." As the Blessed One reflected thus, his mind inclined to living at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma." [end of excerpt] note 363: Spk explains aalaya objectively as the five cords of sensual pleasure, called "adhesions" because it is these to which beings adhere; and again, subjectively, as the 108 mental examinations driven by craving, since it is these that adhere to their objects. note 364: Spk: All these terms are synonyms for Nibbaana. For contingent upon that (tam aagamma), all the vacillations of formations become still and calm down; all acquisitions are relinquished; all cravings are destroyed; all lustful defilements fade away; and all suffering ceases. Spk-pt: 'contingent upon that': in dependence upon that, because it is the object condition for the noble path. 30741 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:10am Subject: Reminder Dear All, Thanks to our many regular posters, this is a very active list! For the benefit of all, please keep in mind the list's Guidelines, which can be viewed at the link below, and note particularly the following from them: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B. Posts We welcome any questions or comments, however light-hearted, relating to the Buddha’s teachings as found in the texts of the Theravada tradition (including the Suttanta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and the ancient commentaries). ... C. Good Practice: Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. The following are not welcome on this list: flame messages, messages that use harsh language or sarcasm, messages that are discourteous or show contempt, and messages that are likely to cause personal discord. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your cooperation. Jon and Sarah http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/AJxBQBo8f_jEq7peaOwE-M7G14nkiLACR5r04DOAg7FgrnVPguqrdezEy5dLrO9ysArKuimZUkJiKPs9T21y/dsg%20Guidelines 30742 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:58am Subject: Pointing with the finger at whom ? Dear Nina & friends: When finding 'mistakes' in then ancient scriptures ao: > Then one should examine whether oneself > may have misunderstood any subtle point! That is actually the rule. Not the exception! How we stumble! Clinging to 'own' 'perfect' views! Hehehe ;-) Peoble, including myself, have maybe been too eager when 'critically' rejecting the commentaries 'en bloc'! When pointing the finger at anyone one may advantageously note that 3 fingers actually & always point back at oneself! Unlike the Canon itself, single & minor mistakes can be found in especially the later commentaries, however one should get up quite early & read trice to find & nail them down. The late Ven. Nyanatiloka once remarked that those who were very critical towards the commentaries were so because they sub- consciously desired to rewrite the name & fame of the commentaries themselves but were unable ... : - ] samahita 30743 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: Reminder PS Any comments off-list only, please. --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear All, > > Thanks to our many regular posters, this is a very active list! ... 30744 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:04am Subject: Miss Isaline Blew Horner in Memoriam... From PTS news: Dr Grace Burford (Prescott College, Arizona, USA) is researching the life and work of I.B. Horner in order to write a biography of her. She would appreciate to hear from anyone with relevant information and can be contacted through the PTS. The Pali Text Society 73 Lime Walk Headington Oxford OX3 7AD Tel: (01865) 742125 Fax: +44 1865 750 079 (mark: For Pali Text Society Email: pts@p... Web site: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk 30745 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:13am Subject: [dsg] for RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob K > > I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were > spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your > contribution to the list. > > Jon > Dear RobK, I agree with Jon here. The way I use dsg is to skim thro the messages and read only ones that,for me, have beneficial things to say, and Robert, yours are always ones that I read bec. I find your posts precise and conducive to more understanding for me. I regard you as one of my Kalayanamitta[s], so I would quite miss you if you posted no more. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita > --- rjkjp1 wrote: 30746 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:58am Subject: SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 Brahma's request. Dear Chris and others, "Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own mind the reflection in the Blessed One's mind, thought: 'Alas, the world is lost! Alas, the world is to perish, in that the mind of the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, inclines to living at ease, not to preaching the Dhamma.' [367]. Then just as quickly as a strong man might extend his drawn-in arm or draw in his extended arm, Brahma Sahampati disappeared from the brahma world and reappeared before the before the Blessed One. He arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, knelt down with his right knee on the ground, raised his joined hands in reverential salutation towards the Blessed One, and said to him: 'Venerable Sir, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma; let the Fortunate One teach the Dhamma. There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma." note 367. Brahma Sahampati appears in dramatic roles at key points in the Buddha's ministry .... If this Brahma Sahampati knew 'with his own mind' what was in the Buddha's mind, I'm wondering if he also knew everything else that the Buddha knew. If so, then he must have been a very wise being as well, or maybe it just so happened that he knew this particular aspect of the Buddha's mind. I understand what you are saying about the Christian god, Christine. The Catholic God was supposed to be a 'knower of all things'. 'we are being dead tick by tick' [Htoonaing] Azita. 30747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Philip You wonder about the meaning of 'development' in the teachings. In the texts we find reference to 2 kinds of 'bhavana' (mental development). These are samatha bhavana (the development of serenity/tranquility, which if developed to the full leads to the jhanas) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, which is the path to enlightenment). Exactly what is involved in the development of insight (or understanding) is what the whole of the texts are about, so from that you will gather that there's no short or easy answer :-)). However, it has to do with understanding the true nature of dhammas, this being something about which we have much ignorance and wrong view. So it starts with understanding at an intellectual level more about these dhammas -- what they are and what their nature is. The same goes for the term 'practice', which in my view is a synonym for 'development'. Suffice it to say, that one of the stated attributes of the dhamma is its 'gradual' nature. So we shouldn't be in any hurry ;-)) You also asked about an earlier comment of mine when I said (referring to the pahaanas/abandonings): > As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. I think I was referring to the fact that the descriptions of abandonings number (2) to (5) are descriptions of the outcome of vipassana bhavana/development of insight -- see the references to: (2) 'knowledge belonging to insight (vipassaná)' (3) 'knowledge of the noble path' (4) 'the moment of fruition (phala)' (5) 'the extinction and Nibbána' whereas the description of abandoning number (1) is a description of the outcome of samatha bhavana/development of serenity -- see the reference to: (1) 'this or that mental concentration (samádhi)' Excellent comments, Philip, and I hope what I've said is to the point. If you'd like to discuss in more detail, I'd be happy to do so. Jon (1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nívarana), etc., through this or that mental concentration (samádhi), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.... (2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of knowledge belonging to insight (vipassaná), just as a lighted lamp dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the personality-belief (sakkáyaditthi) is overcome by determining the mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness by contemplation of misery.... (3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path the fetters and other evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.). (4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the 'overcoming by tranquillization'. (5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and Nibbána" (Pts.M. I. 27). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm --- Philip wrote: > > Hello All. > > The "Buddhist Dictionary" passage Jon includes covers > the "abandoning" side of the coin, but only hints at "developing" > I'm > curious to know more about "develop." I've wondered about this word > > before, because it is often used by Ajaan Chah in "develop the > mind" > (Or, should I say, Thanissaro Bhikku uses it when > translating.) "Develop" sounds so active, even more active than > the "cultivate" I usually use when talking about Brahma-Viharas. 30748 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The strength of Form Ken O Strength of form, or of kilesa? I think perhaps the latter. Like you say in a later post, the latent tendencies (anusaya) are far more powerful than we realize. We have no idea what akusala we are capable of given the right conditions. In my view, it would be a mistake ever to assume that we are not capable of any particular form of akusala. That way we are more ready to anticipate it, and less surprised if it happens ;-)). Appreciating your sharings lately, Ken. Jon --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > Another of sharing of thought. > > In MN Sutta 115 - The Greater Discourse of Voidness. > Buddha "I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the > change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief and despair in one who lusts for it and > takes delight in it" > > MN Sutta 125. The Grade of the Tamed > Buddha [Aggivessana, how is it possible that Prince Jayasena, > living > in the midst of sensual pleasure, enjoying sensual pleasures, being > devoured by thoughts of sensual pleasures, being consumed by the > fever of sensual pleasure, bent on the search for sensual pleasure, > could know, see, or realize which must be known through > renunciation, > seen through renunciation, attained through renunciation realized > through renunciation. That is impossible.] > > It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual > pleasure especially to the alluring and enticing of form. Most of > the time without realising that I have been too captivated by them. > Such is the dukkha that form creates. 30749 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Ken O I agree with you about the power of the latent tendencies, but I'm not sure about this: > ...If it is not dhamma talk, remain silent, is a > very powerful precept. Those powerful tendencies will have their way, whether we are talking or staying silent. There no rule for lay people that all talk except dhamma talk is to be avoided, and to self-impose such rule would be a burden on those you live and work with. Try applying the same reasoning to other aspects of your life, e.g., don't eat unless you can do so without attachment. I don't think it will work ;-)) Jon --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > Recently, I realise that latent tendecy is powerful and arise in a > person unknowlying. It conditioned much lobha, dosa and moha > without > one realising it. Tendency that has been condition in the past, > will > arise when one is not mindful and ardent. It catches one in the > stream of samasara world, it swept away one in the flood of > fetters. > While I woke up this morning, I heard simple words like How are you > or good morning, sounds polite may have tendecy involved. It may be > attached to cultural values or societal values or value to show one > is polite. Even simple reactions like, yah, I agree or I think > this > way, its good, could be a conditoned arise due to conceit that one > think it is right. If it is not dhamma talk, remain silent, is a > very powerful precept. It reminds one to look at consider or > reflect > our consciouness, to say this or to say that. 30750 From: dsgmods Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening. Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, ... > Now some more chatting about listening. In Bgk Jon told me that he listens > each day forty minutes to a Dhamma CD during his walk. That is a good > example for me, I should listen more. A. Sujin said, when you listen to the > Dhamma you think more of the Dhamma instead of thinking about other things. > Very practical. Yes, I certainly agree with the great value of listening, but it can only happen if the conditions are right. For me it happens if at all on my 40 minute daily walk with Sarah, but of course the 40 minutes is a theoretical maximum ;-)) and there are times when we have things to discuss or other circumstances prevail. It's true that it can lead to much useful reflection, but also the degree of that varies for obvious reasons. Highly recommended, though, for anyone so inclined. Jon 30751 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hello Jon, and all. Thanks for the clarification Jon. I was confused because the bhavana side of the coin wasn't laid out in that post. J:> You wonder about the meaning of 'development' in the teachings. > > In the texts we find reference to 2 kinds of 'bhavana' (mental > development). These are samatha bhavana (the development of > serenity/tranquility, which if developed to the full leads to the > jhanas) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, which is > the path to enlightenment). Ph: I wonder where metta fits in here. If I recall correctly, in the abhidhamma it's a cetasika, but in the suttanta is it ever taught as a kind of mental development? Here 's a verse from the Metta sutta: Mettañ ca sabba-lokasmim Manasam bhavaye aparimanam Uddham adho ca tiriyanca Asambadham averam asapattam Cultivate an all-embracing mind of love For all throughout the universe, In all its height, depth and breadth -- Love that is untroubled And beyond hatred or enmity. The "bhavaye" must be something like cultivate/develop. But since the suffix is different I guess it's referring to a different practice than bhavana. Could you or someone tell me the difference between "bhavana" and "bhavaye?" I wish I could throw myself into Pali study, but I'm already being very lazy about my Japanese. Since cultivating the Brahma-Viharas is so central to my practice, I'm curious to know if it is a form of bhavana along with samattha and vipassana. The vipassana book I read (Mindfulness in Plain English) recommended metta as a warm-up exercise. For me, it's a practice all of it's own. Thanks again. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Philip > > You wonder about the meaning of 'development' in the teachings. > > In the texts we find reference to 2 kinds of 'bhavana' (mental > development). These are samatha bhavana (the development of > serenity/tranquility, which if developed to the full leads to the > jhanas) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, which is > the path to enlightenment). > > Exactly what is involved in the development of insight (or > understanding) is what the whole of the texts are about, so from that > you will gather that there's no short or easy answer :-)). However, > it has to do with understanding the true nature of dhammas, this > being something about which we have much ignorance and wrong view. > So it starts with understanding at an intellectual level more about > these dhammas -- what they are and what their nature is. > > The same goes for the term 'practice', which in my view is a synonym > for 'development'. > > Suffice it to say, that one of the stated attributes of the dhamma is > its 'gradual' nature. So we shouldn't be in any hurry ;-)) > > You also asked about an earlier comment of mine when I said > (referring to the pahaanas/abandonings): > > As can be seen from this material, > > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. > > I think I was referring to the fact that the descriptions of > abandonings number (2) to (5) are descriptions of the outcome of > vipassana bhavana/development of insight -- see the references to: > (2) 'knowledge belonging to insight (vipassan?E' > (3) 'knowledge of the noble path' > (4) 'the moment of fruition (phala)' > (5) 'the extinction and Nibbána' > > whereas the description of abandoning number (1) is a description of > the outcome of samatha bhavana/development of serenity -- see the > reference to: > (1) 'this or that mental concentration (samádhi)' > > Excellent comments, Philip, and I hope what I've said is to the > point. If you'd like to discuss in more detail, I'd be happy to do > so. > > Jon > > (snip) 30752 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:14am Subject: Conditioned patience (was re:Paramis 8356) Hello all. Interested in the exchange below about how patience is conditioned, and cannot be willed. An experience today brought that home. Today I went to work still feeling rapturous about having come across the abhidhamma and had started my work day when a staff member at my school kind of took me to the side and said, much to my astonishment, in broken English, "When I see you I think of the Dalai Lama" and went on to paraphrase the Dalai Lama talking about himself as a boundless ocean, referring, I guess to the Brahma-Viharas, which I know HHDL is big on. He said that I was like that, that I made the students very comfortable, and so on. Well, you know by now how keen I am about the Immeasurables, so for someone to say something like that to me out of the blue (I've never mentioned an interest in Buddhism to anyone at work) when I was already feeling rapturous about the Buddha's teaching obviously just sent saddha through the roof. In the old days, it would have fuelled my ego, and I would never have told anyone about it, in the belief that it was a kind of sacred experience or something like that. Nonsense. On the way home on the train, things people have told me here about being patient came to mind, and I felt the need to practice khanti arise. Rob K, Nina, Jon and maybe others have all mentionned patience, conditioning patience by doing so, I guess, and that conditioned patience arose when I needed it to prevent me from going off the rails. Patience with bearing good experiences as well as harsh ones. A very good example of how the kind of discussions that go on here are a form of practice, not just talking about practice. Also, I'm learning more about that question I asked: "How do you pratice the paramis." I had wondered if people choose to focus on certain ones at certain times but now I sense that they are conditioned and the need for them arises to the mind of those who are aware, the way the need for khanti arose today. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 30-09-2001 09:16 schreef Sukinderpal Narula op sukin@k...: > > > My view is that patience, just like anything else being anatta arises only > > when conditions are right. This means that we cannot 'will' patience. > > When we do not react to unwanted situations this can be anything from > > fear of repercussions to cold indifference. > > And when we talk ourselves into having patience because we believe it > > to be useful to the situation and/or 'self- development', we are dealing > > purely on the conceptual level. This is not to say that on the conceptual > > level there cannot be a more genuine patience or that it can't develop > > until and unless panna of a very high level arises. I think that everytime > > there is some reflection about paramatthadhammas or khandas for example, > > knowing that what appears can be reduced to these impersonal elements, > > and that there is in the ultimate sense no person or situation to be patient > > towards and no one to be patient, then I think that 'patience' can arise. > > Regarding patience being "the chief cause for the practice of the other > > paramis", I want to add that eventhough wisdom is required for patience > > to be 'true patience'; patience is a necessary factor for the development of > > wisdom. Willing and wishing and wanting to have panna sounds like not > > the way to having it and can lead to 'impatience'. > > A. Sujin always encourages patience, bravery and good-cheer with regard > > to development of wisdom. > > I guess this is all I have to say for now. Will appreciate comments from > > anybody. > > > Dear Sukin, I appreciate your post on patience being conditioned and > non-self, very much. We are inclined to think, I should be patient, and this > is often not successful. I especially like your reminder that A. sujin > encourages patience, bravery and cheerfulness, when developing satipatthana. > Yes, I have often heard this from her (athaan rarung) and it is good to be > reminded again. When people do not see any result in being aware of seeing, > visible object, hearing, sound and all objects appearing through the six > doors they become disheartened, they give up. But as I learnt from a text of > the Mahaniddesa given by Jim about jhaayati, reflection, we have to examine > realities closely, often, frequently, in various ways, continuously. > Pa~n~naa has to go on discriminating nama and rupa, not once or twice. We > also read in the teachings, that the Buddha inspired the monks, encouraged > them, delighted them with Dhamma talk. I like the good cheer element, > because if there is discouragement it shows our clinging to result. Why > don't we live from moment to moment and forget about result, such as > attaining vipassana ~n~nas. There is enough to be done right now, but it is > not a self who develops. > Sukin, if you and Amara can sometimes give us reminders you heard at the > Foundation sessions, many people will be very grateful. Thank you again, > Nina. 30753 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Dear Robert K and Christine, I am joining Christine. When I read Larry's post I could not find anything disagreeable in it. In fact, I liked it very much, since he was stressing that we should know lobha and dosa, know our own citta, just now. That matters most in all those discussions. He very consistently likes to study and concentrate on a few subjects, and might find that the pro and contra jhana Emails are a little to many. His usual style is very brief. It could be misunderstood. He prefers another translation of the quoted sutta, that is all. Email is a difficult medium. When we reread a post the next day we interprete it differently. I hope this is cleared up. As Ken O said, we need a lot of metta and karuna here! And patience! I heard this on tape about the perfections: This is so very actual. I like to quote a sutta: Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch XVII, § 7: we read that Sariputta said that one should pay attention to five things when exhorting someone else: Nina. op 29-02-2004 06:59 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: (snip) > > Robert - It would be a great loss to this group if you should > leave, and, selfishly, a loss for me as well, as I learn so much > from you - you are responsible for many of us joining dsg in the > first place, and I'm sure you've written a high percentage of the > Useful Posts. Misunderstandings are just that, and can be cleared > away with goodwill. Please reconsider. 30754 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Dear James, I will come back to you later on. I like to explain a few things in order to clear up misunderstandings which are quite unnecessary as I see it. Today I first have to concentrate on other subjects. Can you or others help me to find the sutta? The annotation of BB is hard to find. Grad. Book of the Fives, I think. Which Ch and which para? O, yes, I found it: Pitisutta, Zest. Nina. op 28-02-2004 16:23 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > So, Nina, it seems to me that K. Sujin is mistaken when she teaches > householders that they can¡¦t and shouldn¡¦t practice jhana. She is > pandering to what they want to hear, removing them from personal > responsibility, and setting up an atmosphere and belief leading to > failure. 30755 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello RobertK. RobertK: Now the only path available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. Michael: I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. I don't intend to argue with you but just to understand your thinking. Could you also expand on what the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. Metta Michael 30756 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Jon Dont speak if it is not dhamma is a precept which I consider deeply because whenever when I talk, is it because of conceit, or moha or or aversion. As I said earlier in my email, simple pleasantaries could be a result of our need to comply societal values or conceit. Definitely this rule does not apply strictly to lay people because of our need to communicate with friends, family and work. I think self impose do not bring any benefit, I am saying reflecting on our rooted consciouness when we speak, and we can see there are indeed many motivation involved. There can be many enlightening experience just reflecting before or after or during our talk. When we talk it is also rupa that talk, reflecting on the three characterisic on it can also be a wonderful experience. IMHO a sombering fact about talking is that when we talk other than dhamma latent tendecy will be reconditioned be it a necessity for us to communicate with friends, family etc. Sometimes when I get carried away then latent tendecy has already manifested. Definitely it is still up to individual though ;-). Ken O 30757 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned patience (was re:Paramis 8356) Hi Philip I dont conditioned patient because no one can. I only consider nama and rupas when it arise and when it cease, that is to me the cultivation of patience. When the mind is not agitated where is there impatient to be found. I dont cultivate compassion because it will arise when one see dhammas as impermanent. Impermanence reminds me that we might never meet again in this conditioned world for this life time, whatever good I could help within my means, I will naturally do it. Think about it Ken O 30758 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi all "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. "Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." The last sentence "going against the stream" is very true. Yesterday I was working and I happen to chance upon a colleague to talk about sensual pleasure. He talks about sensual pleasure, he dont see the danger in it. He thinks as long as one does not overdo it, it is ok, he thinks that without sensual pleasure there is no enjoyment in living. This phrase about "going against the stream" is indeed true. But then I explain in layman term on hunger for things, I ask him do you ever stop hunger for things, when you play computer games, do you hunger for more and when you stop playing, you cant forget about it. He say that is true. I hope this little conversation will sown a little dhamma in him and accumulate his panna which may one day blossom :). That is what I meant about cultivation of compassion. Simple things like asking your children to put the money in the donation box, telling your wife about good things bring good result, listening to your friends when they are in need are practices of compassion. There is no need to purposely do it or to meditate about it. It is right here and right now. Ken O 30759 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > I will come back to you later on. I like to explain a few things in order to > clear up misunderstandings which are quite unnecessary as I see it. Today I > first have to concentrate on other subjects. > Can you or others help me to find the sutta? The annotation of BB is hard to > find. Grad. Book of the Fives, I think. Which Ch and which para? > O, yes, I found it: Pitisutta, Zest. > Nina. Okay, take your time. No big deal. It would probably be better for you to wait until the smoke clears around here anyway! ;-)) So anyway, did you find the sutta or do you still need help? I don't entirely understand your post. The sutta in my copy of the AN, Translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi, is Sutta 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion" on Pg. 141. In whatever version you are using it may be called "Pitisutta" since Piti is defined as rapture. We are probably looking at the same sutta. I will await your response. Thank you for letting me know that you are working on it. Metta, James 30760 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, KenO: He talks about sensual pleasure, he dont see the danger in it. He thinks as long as one does not overdo it, it is ok, he thinks that without sensual pleasure there is no enjoyment in living. This phrase about "going against the stream" is indeed true. But then I explain in layman term on hunger for things, I ask him do you ever stop hunger for things, when you play computer games, do you hunger for more and when you stop playing, you cant forget about it. He say that is true. Michael: A question came to me mind. Is it possible for a human being to live without pleasure? Do you think the Buddha taught that it is possible, or that his disciples should live without pleasure? Metta Michael 30761 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hi Nina, Thanks for this very timely reminder. I was just considering a rather harsh response to a recent post by an habitually very rude contributor. I'm glad Sariputta's admonition caught me in time mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch XVII, § 7: we read that Sariputta said that one should pay attention to five things when exhorting someone else: 30762 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Rob, Jon's right--yours are invariably among the best and most important messages on the list. Do stick around please. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:27 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks > Rob K > > I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were > spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your > contribution to the list. 30763 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:01am Subject: CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Hello all, I wish to thank and congratulate the List Owners, Sarah and Jon Abbott, for providing this wonderful 'venue' for us in which to meet and discuss the Dhamma. Their deft and respectful management of some of the very different and/or strong personalities that congregate here from all over the world, and their sharing of their dhamma knowledge and understanding has made it generally a safe and supportive place to ask questions and learn, and to occasionally, disagree. My gratitude also goes to some of the more knowledgeable members of the group for valuable mentoring and support. Some you you who were originally just little squiggles, have now become dear friends (a bit like life really :-)) This group began on 28 December, 1999, and in the first full month of January, 2000 had the Grand Total of 102 posts. In that first full month, there were eight or so members very actively posting, and the subjects covered included: why study, our blind spots, self, rebirth, kamma, sense doors, control, and paramattha dhammas. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose :-) Previously, the maximum number of posts in a month stood at 1132 in July 2001. The number for February, 2004 (and it isn't as long as July 2001) reached - wait for it ... Taaa Daaaah!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN POSTS!!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Talkative lot, aren't you?! :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30764 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 4:17:10 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: James: Good, no reason to be concerned about it. I practiced vipassana for many years and got to a point where I couldn't go forward anymore. I didn't have a strong enough foundation in calmness. I totally freaked when I really saw that my mind was appearing and disappearing! ;-)) So now I have switched to Jhana to get that foundation in calmness that I need. I may stay with Jhana or I may switch back, but I think I will stay with Jhana. I like it more and it seems to suit me better. James, I started with jhana many, many years ago. The I switched to vipassana laced with a little jhana work and am now using the Anapanasati Sutta as a guide. Using the APS Sutta means including what some would call jhana work (working with concentration, piti and sukha for instance) and some would call vipassana work. By the way, my experience is that some people think they are doing jhana work or vipassana and are not. jack 30765 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack James, I am back refreshed from a 1 day retreat. I will try to answer your comments below. In a nutshell, I think "jhana" is used in two different ways in the suttas. If I go to my favorite book of suttas (Majjhima Nikaya translated by my favorite translators B. Nanamoli and B. Bodhi) and look in the glossary under "jhana" I find two definitions: 1. meditative absorptions and 2. meditation. I then go to what I consider the definitive source for translations, PTS' Pali-English Dictionary, and find the same thing. If the word "jhana' is not defined by the Buddha in the suttas, I think he means "jhana" as meditation. If the word "jhana" is defined as levels of absorption, he means it in that specific sense. This is not the point that Thanisssaro is making in his article, though. James: I am not considering `most people'; I am only considering the Buddha. The Buddha didn't define jhana incorrectly. When the Buddha said jhana he meant jhana, when he said satipatthana he meant satipatthana. I don't see what the issue is. Jack: You are quite the debator. I said Thanissaso thinks most people are incorrect in defining [Buddha's use of] "jhana." You answer with jhana means jhana. Can't argue with that. Jack: To repeat myself, Thanis. thinks jhana and vipasssana are not two separate practices but aspects of the same practice. His comments are consistent with this. No bait and switch is involved. James: Well, to repeat myself ;-), Thanissaro is wrong about this. What else can I say? He is wrong. He isn't the Buddha; he isn't an arahant; it is actually possible for him to be wrong. You are racking up the debating points. Yes, I concede, Thanissaro could be wrong. I could be wrong. I dare say you could be wrong. We all could be wrong. Jack: The Buddha didn't present his teachings in one sutta. He presented it in many different suttas emphasizing different aspects. One sutta would emphasis this. Another sutta would emphasis that. James: I'm sorry, but you are going to have to be a little more specific. I gave you the Samadhi Sutta where the Buddha specifically describes different practices of concentration which lead to different results: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html In this sutta the Buddha describes jhana as being one type of concentration and satipatthana as being a different type of concentration. How much plainer can it get? ;-) Give me just one sutta where the Buddha said that it isn't important to consider the differences and that there is really only one type of meditation. Jack: I read this sutta as presenting the many benefits of meditation not presenting mutually exclusive types of meditation. I think I have mentioned before that I think the Anapanasati Sutta gives one complete mental development program. This is one program and not split into vipassana and jhana. I also think the Samadhi Sutta presents one type of meditation. Jack: To me, focusing my attention on the body means I remember to focus my attention on my body. That is what Thanis. is saying. James: Yes, mindfulness does involve remembering but that isn't all. Are all you doing is remembering to focus on your body? What about actually doing it? I could remember that I need to buy eggs at the store but nothing will happen until I actually go buy them. When I focus my attention, I constantly remember to bring my attention back to my object of meditation. Remembering is part of doing it. jack: Thanis. is not saying to get involved in any drama. He is saying to deeply feel/realize arising and passing away, not to stay on the surface. James: To `feel' and to `realize' are two different things. Feelings are suffering; realization is wisdom and isn't suffering. You are being as unspecific in your use of terms as Thanissaro, that was all I was saying. jack: Your 5 methods involve (1) reflecting, (2) considering, (3) not paying attention, (4) reflecting again and (5) mentally beating down the thought. To me, this involves arguing --especially (5) beating down. Nowhere does Thanis. say to lose one's equanimity. James: First, these are the Buddha's methods, not mine. Second, I don't think that one can `argue' with equanimity. The very word `argue' means that feelings are involved with automatically destroys equanimity. Of course, this is a semantic issue and Thanissaro didn't elaborate what he really meant so we can drop it. jack: One aspect of jhana/vipassana meditation is overcoming the 5 hindrances. Anger is one of the 5 hindrances. So, it seems to be very fitting to bring in anger. James: First, what do you mean by `jhana/vipassana meditation'? I thought you are agreeing with Thanissaro that there aren't any differences? Now you are really confusing me! ;-)) Jhana/vipassana means the meditation is both. Second, when writing an essay or article it isn't okay to start elaborating at length on anything that is only somewhat related to your main thesis. I have a B.A. in English and a Masters in English Education, trust me on this one! ;-)) Your credentials overwhelm me. I concede. Be well. jack 30766 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing with the finger at whom ? Venerable Bhante, Very well spoken. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! Nina. op 29-02-2004 09:58 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu_samahita@y...: > When finding 'mistakes' in then ancient scriptures ao: > >> Then one should examine whether oneself >> may have misunderstood any subtle point! > 30767 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned patience (was re:Paramis 8356) Dear Philip, very nice. We need to develop all the paramis, but we should not think: what kind of parami shall I develop. I know you don't, but A. Sujin reminded us of this. So that we do not think of my paramis. She also said that we do not have to think of the paramis in order to develop them, and all of them can develop together. As you say, they are conditioned. When there is patience it is not too difficult to also have metta and the other Brahmaviharas, and sila in deeds and speech. Recently about metta, in Bgk, we talked about my father who, especially in the past, did not seem to care much for me. He prefers sons, daughters are second class. But then we concluded: I like him, even when he does not like me, and that is metta. Practical, isn't it? We can apply that to others who do not like us, it does help. Nina. op 29-02-2004 15:14 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Also, I'm learning more about that question I asked: "How do you > pratice the paramis." I had wondered if people choose to focus on > certain ones at certain times but now I sense that they are > conditioned and the need for them arises to the mind of those who are > aware, the way the need for khanti arose today. 30768 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hello Nina, and Mike :-) This is a good point - my previous spiritual path valued 'righteous anger'; it was O.K. to be outraged by cruelty, tragedy, rudeness and incompetence. One of the hardest lessons to understand, since I have learned about buddhism in daily life, is coming to see that 'dosa' is 'dosa', no matter how I dress it up. Nice to see you around again, Mike, can we hope to read you more frequently? :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for this very timely reminder. I was just considering a rather harsh > response to a recent post by an habitually very rude contributor. I'm glad > Sariputta's admonition caught me in time > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nina van gorkom" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:17 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. > > > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch XVII, § 7: > we read that Sariputta said that one should pay attention to five things > when exhorting someone else: > not what has not; I will speak with gentleness, not harshness; I will speak > about the Goal, not about what is not the Goal; I will speak with mind of > amity, not of ill-will.> 30769 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================= > I certainly don't have perfect and consistent calm - far from it. I > get angry at times, though not often and never powerfully or with any duration > to it. Worry does arise from time to time, and sometimes fear, and often desire > of one sort or another. But overall, much calm has come to me over the years > as a result of Dhamma practice, some insight, and also a growing love for > "sentient beings" that is an enormous joy to me. > I don't know "where I am" on the path of practice, and it really > doesn't matter all that much. All that matters to me in that regard is having > gotten to the point of having tremendous confidence that this Dhamma of the > Buddha's is the real thing. I am enormously grateful for it and enormously grateful > to him - and for good friends in the Dhamma. > > With metta, > Howard James: I was reflecting on this conversation about the differences in our practices and I wanted to share a sutta that, I think, addresses these differences: AN 81 "Four Modes of Progress": There are, O monks, these four modes of progress. What four? The mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge; the mode of progress that is painful with quick direct knowledge; the mode of progress that is pleasant, with sluggish direct knowledge; and the mode of progress that is pleasant, with quick direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he often experiences pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear to him to be tender - the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their tenderness he sluggishly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. (64) This is called the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progress that is painful, with quick direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he often experiences pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear in him to be prominent – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their prominence he quickly attains the immediacy conditions for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is painful, with quick direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progess that is pleasant, with sluggish direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is not by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he does not often experience pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear in him to be tender – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their tenderness he sluggishly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is pleasant, with sluggish direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progress this is pleasant, with quick direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is not by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred, and delusion, and he does not often experience pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear to him to be prominent – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their prominence he quickly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is pleasant, with quick direct knowledge. These, monks, are the four modes of progress. Note 64: Anantariyam. AA explains this as the concentration of the path (maggasamadhi), which is followed immediately by its result (i.e. corresponding fruit). James: So, Howard, when I describe my Buddhist practice as being painful, there is a reason for that. It doesn't mean that I am practicing incorrectly, it just means that I am by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion (I'm sure some members here could attest to that! ;-)) And here I am actually being quite good compared to how I could be! Remember?? ;-)). Anyway, I have to really struggle for any progress I achieve and I can't be lackadaisical about it. This is why I am often misunderstood, I think. I know a lot about Buddhism and practice really diligently but I can be a real `pain in the #$^%$' at times. (I am really glad that you are able to see through that and that I can call you a genuine friend.) I believe you, on the other hand, are not strongly disposed to lust, hatred or delusion. Buddhist practice to you isn't terribly painful and you don't have to struggle all that hard. You are always cool and rational (for the most part ;-) and everyone looks up to you. You are by nature the `Model Buddhist'. And I think that is great and I am not jealous or bothered- because you are genuine. Anyway, just sharing my thoughts. There is also an interesting article on the Buddha's chief disciples: Sariputta and Maha- Moggallana at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html that describes their different paths to enlightenment. Maha- Moggallana had to struggle intensely, get personal help from the Buddha at least twice, and also developed very advanced psychic ability as a result—but he achieved enlightenment in half the time it took Sariputta. Sariputta however did not struggle, did not need help, and consequently didn't develop any psychic abilities-but was the more respected of the two. Sound familiar? ;-)) Metta, James 30770 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply. I am trying to put right messages while that person is trying to put mocery messages. And made own versions of Sutta. Unthinkable. Now there is another wrong message. And that message has been distributed to many groups. The message needs thorough dissection so that real dhamma can be seen inside of mocked message. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. > > I would say jhana attainment is one way of getting Samma-Samadhi. > But it is not the only way. If it is the only way, why bother > about the term 'Samma-Samadhi'; just saying 'Jhana' explicitly > would make the job so much easier. > > > Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The > > historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane > > consciousness. > > Totally agree. To say that jhana is supramundane consciousness is > making a mockery of the Buddha's achievements. > > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. > > Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30771 From: Carl Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks "Time for me to move on. RobertK" ============================================= Dear RobertK, I would certainly miss you if you left. I am reposting the following that you wrote to me when I first came to DSG. I just wanted to say thank you. You are one of the main Pillars supporting the DSG. Carl =================================================== "It is just a flux happening so fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the change of dhammas. RobertK " =================================================== ====================================== From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:30 pm Subject: Re: New Member "rjkjp1" wrote: > > ---------------------- >Carl asks:....... i.e. *I* can feel *hardness*. Without *I*, what is to feel? Hardness is a paramattha dhamma. *I* is a conventional reality. It takes two to tango (so to speak). (No *I*) + (No *Hardness*) = (No dance). _______ RobertK answers: I appreciate your questions Carl and so I give a detailed answer. In the Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi)" 'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned,cut off at the root...."endquote. Thus there is no I who experiences hardness but rather because of conditions coming together there is the experience of hardness. This `being' is simply a puppet with manifold parts – all coming together in different combinations – lasting for an instant and then falling away again. Because the conditions that make up each moment are often similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment – and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes. ""Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga xviii31 The conditions that make up what we think of as a human being are of course more complex than a marionette, and hence more difficult to fathom. The first steps, of this very long untanglement, are about identifying, with right wisdom, the various characteristics of the different phenomena that comprise this `being' this manisfestion of paticcasamuppada. Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. But there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda: "[The] uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view"visuddhimagga xx102 The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" xx102 "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. "XV15 This is deep Dhamma that can only be heard during the time of a Buddhasasana. RobertK ========================================== Thank you for this wonderful post. Carl 30772 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:02pm Subject: Re: CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Dear All: HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH= HHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!= !!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ > > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) > ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN POSTS!!! > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'We are the champions, myfriend... We will be the finest at the end... We are the champions... WEEEEEE ARE THE CHAAAAMAPIONS...." Mettaya, Ícaro > Talkative lot, aren't you?! :-) > YEAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 30773 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo, I understand your dismay at seeing widely dispersed messages (Dhamma Spam?) that contain what some consider to be distortions of the Teachings, driven by personal needs of the poster. It is impossible to refute all wrong view - because there is much more of it in the world than Right Understanding. Ultimately, people are responsible for what they believe themselves - they can and do search for authoritative sources of teaching, and have the opportunity to notice what is inconsistent with the Buddha's Words. I understand your grave concern at seeing alterations to the words of suttas called 'improvements' and 'corrections' posted on the Net. The responsibility for this is also shared by any listowner allowing them to remain unchallenged. But, one thing to consider is that not many people are interested in reading long messages, and perhaps the messages should be left to 'die a quiet death'. Any discussion merely keeps them in the public eye for longer. So, perhaps, post your reply but do not continue to debate? Enjoying, as always, any posts you care to make. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30774 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I am back refreshed from a 1 day retreat. I will try to answer your comments below. In a nutshell, I think "jhana" is used in two different ways in the suttas. If I go to my favorite book of suttas (Majjhima Nikaya translated by my favorite translators B. Nanamoli and B. Bodhi) and look in the glossary under "jhana" I find two definitions: 1. meditative absorptions and 2. meditation. I then go to what I consider the definitive source for translations, PTS' Pali- English Dictionary, and find the same thing. If the word "jhana' is not defined by the Buddha in the suttas, I think he means "jhana" as meditation. If the word "jhana" is defined as levels of absorption, he means it in that specific sense. James: Thank you for pointing this out. I didn't think to look there. That is why I asked if the word `Jhana' was ever used just by itself by the Buddha, I really didn't know. Actually the glossary to the MN defines Jhana as (1) untranslated: meditative absorption; (2) meditation. You left out that `untranslated' part and that could be important?? That is why I wrote that when the Buddha said "Jhana" he meant "Jhana", not just meditation. (I wasn't trying to `win' debate points). Jack: I said Thanissaso thinks most people are incorrect in defining [Buddha's use of] "jhana." James: Again, I don't see the point of what Thanissaro thinks about this. The Buddha himself defined jhana practically every time he spoke about it, but here is a sutta where he went into a very detailed explanation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-028.html Jack: You are racking up the debating points. Yes, I concede, Thanissaro could be wrong. I could be wrong. I dare say you could be wrong. We all could be wrong. James: Hmmm…I sense a lot of agitation here. I don't think that retreat did you much good! ;-)) (just kidding) Yes, of course I could be wrong also. The only one who couldn't be wrong is the Buddha. I was a `Lincoln-Douglas and Cross-Examination Debater' in high school and college (any other former debators out there?? ;-) but, when I debated as a scholastic exercise I didn't really believe in the side I was debating. I would debate both sides of any issue over and over again. It is an excellent activity, which I recommend to all students, because it helps to develop critical thinking skills. However, in this case I am not debating just for the sake of debating. I do actually believe, sincerely, what I am telling you. If you don't think so, okay. Jack: Jack: I read this sutta as presenting the many benefits of meditation not presenting mutually exclusive types of meditation. James: Well, the sutta was actually about `concentration' but you do have a point there. It doesn't describe different methods, only different results. However, I think that one can determine that different methods would be the only way to produce different results. I don't think it is like a roulette wheel where you take your chances about what you are going to get. I gave another sutta, in a different post to Jeff, which more specifically points to two actual different practices. It is post #30699 if you want to check it out. Jack: Your credentials overwhelm me. I concede. James: Hmmm…sarcasm too. Just what did you do at that retreat? ;-)) I was not trying to impress you, just to explain why I know what I was talking about. I wanted to expedite the conversation. If you want me to impress you I can send you my full resume! ;-)) Metta, James 30775 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:45pm Subject: Scholars and Meditators Hi All, I have been studying the AN lately (wanted to take a break from the SN), and I came across this sutta that just really made me laugh—and reminded me of DSG ;-)): AN 125 "Scholars and Meditators" Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was dwelling at Sahajati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus: "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma (20) and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: `Look at those monks! They think, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate to and fro, meditate up and down! (21) What, then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. (22) "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying `Look at those monks! They think, "We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma- experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise those monks who are Dhamma- experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." Note 20: Dhammayoga. AA says that the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika), but it probably refers to all those who are keen on studies and cultivate principally the intellectual approach. The term seems to be unique to the present text and the distincition posited between meditators and "those keen on Dhamma" is suggestive of a late origin. Note 21: Jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanbti avajjhayanti. These synonyms, formed by prefixes to the verb "to meditate", cannot be rendered adequately into English. They are meant to indicate belittlement and ridicule. Note: If people refuse to give respect or recognition to those with talents, temperaments or pursuits different from those of their own, only mutual displeasure will result. An exclusive emphasis on one- sided development will not lead to progress and true happiness, which can be found only in an ever-renewed attempt at harmonizing what should be complementary, and not antagonistic, in the human mind and in society. James Note': I just had a sobering thought: What if we all have been arguing this subject for coutless lifetimes? ;-)) 30776 From: connie Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:17pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Hi James and Christine, Here's the part of Nina's SPD that I was thinking of: The javana víthi-cittas that are kusala and those which are akusala arise and fall away in succession and they accumulate kusala or akusala all the time. This conditions each person to have different inclinations, a different character and a different behaviour. The accumulations in the citta of each person are most intricate. Also the arahats, those who have reached perfection, have different inclinations, they excel in different qualities. Venerable Såriputta was preeminent in wisdom, venerable Mahå Moggallåna in superpowers, venerable Mahå Kassapa in the observance of ascetical practices, which he also encouraged others to observe, and venerable Anuruddha was preeminent in clairvoyance. The javana víthi-cittas of each one of us arrange themselves in their own series or continuity and accumulate different kinds of kusala and of akusala time and again, and this is the reason that, at the present time, we all think, speak and act in completely different ways. Cittas that are kusala, akusala and mahå-kiriya which arrange themselves in a series of javana, cause people to have a different behaviour through body and speech. It could happen that people who saw an arahat had contempt for him because they judged him by his outward behaviour, which he had accumulated for an endlessly long time. The Brahman Vassakåra, the prime minister of Magadha, for example, made a serious mistake by misjudging an arahat from his outward behaviour. When he saw Mahå Kacchana coming down from a mountain he said that Mahå Kacchana behaved like a monkey. Vassakåra's haughtiness was conditioned by the accumulation of his javana víthi-cittas. The Buddha told him to ask Mahå Kacchana forgiveness, but his accumulated conceit was the condition that he was unable to do so. The Buddha predicted that Vassakåra, after he had died, would be reborn as a monkey in a bamboo wood. Vassakåra had thereupon banana trees planted as well as other things monkeys could eat. Then his food would be all ready for him when he would be reborn as a monkey in that bamboo wood. We should see the danger of the accumulation of akusala in the javana víthi-cittas that arise and fall away in a succession of seven cittas. Akusala is accumulated time and again so that it becomes one's nature and appears in one's behaviour and speech and this accumulated behaviour is called in Påli: "våsanå" 2. Even when one has become an arahat there are inclinations accumulated in the citta that condition different kinds of behaviour. The Buddha is the only person who could eradicate "våsanå". All arahats have eradicated defilements completely so that not even a germ is left of them, but nevertheless they are unable to eradicate "våsanå". This is because they have accumulated "våsanå" for an endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death through the power of javana víthi-cittas. I love the monkey story! James, I think when it says only the Buddha could eradicate vasana, it means the Sammasambuddha rather than the Paccekabuddha. I don't remember exactly what all the differences between them are. Both are self-enlightened, but our Sammasambuddha is the Teacher and has qualities the other (private, solitary, silent, etc) Buddhas don't. peace, connie 30777 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] for RobK Robert, I can't imagine this group without you. It's like one of the main lights in a room has been turned off and now it is not so bright as before. Unlike Azita, I read almost *all* the mails on dsg. The main reason being that even views I consider wrong are good reminders to me. The accumulated wrong view is so great that I have little difficulty identifying with those wrong views, and consider myself only lucky to have found K. Sujin and this group. And who led me here? *You*!!! So please don't go away. I realize that you are very busy these days and will remain so for the next several months. But please just write and say that you are still around.;-)Pleeeeeeeease! Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Rob K > > > > I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were > > spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your > > contribution to the list. > > > > Jon > > > > Dear RobK, > > I agree with Jon here. > The way I use dsg is to skim thro the messages and read only > ones that,for me, have beneficial things to say, and Robert, yours > are always ones that I read bec. I find your posts precise and > conducive to more understanding for me. > I regard you as one of my Kalayanamitta[s], so I would quite > miss you if you posted no more. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita > > > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: 30778 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael Depends on what kind of pleasure. Sensual pleasure is a big no-no. Equamnity or pleasure attined during different stags of Buddhism jhanas ;-) is ok but still have to be careful not to cling to it if one is still not an Arahant. Ken O 30779 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi All Again this morning, I recalled listening song in my memory. Then I stop and ponder, the song is pleasurable which means there is self that is feeling pleasure. then I realise that even simple lobha and dosa has this a me, myself or I in it. I think no wonder it said whenever there is lobha or dosa there is moha. I think no wonder Buddha always teaches this is not me. or myself or I in aggregates, in senses in so many diferent ways. I think no wonder satipatthana is for every momemt because each moment that left unattended will bring moha to the forefront which conditioned the tendecy for an I, me or myself. Then I think no wonder mindfullness without the accompanying knowlegde of the three characteristic of dhamma is not satipatthana, it will not eradicate kilesa (which is key for enlightment). I think no wonder Buddha is not just concern about the three unwholesome roots, he is concern about the underlying tendecies. I think becuase each akusala cittas (be it dosa or lobha or moha) will conditioned the tendecy of me, myself or I. thanks for lending your ears for my chattering away Ken O 30780 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James, no you are not the only one who not only sees the irony, but the contradiction in cultivating tranquility, when one does not practice tranquility. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/29/04 1:40:32 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << I do admire the teachings, techniques, and retreats of Goenka, I think that they are beneficial only for the beginner. If one stays too long in the `Goenka Technique', stagnation and dullness are bound to manifest. Moreover, his entire system doesn't encourage individual exploration and self-sufficient- ness. It is somewhat a `cookie-cutter' spirituality.) So, anyway, I ask again, without the outside prop of a Goenka Meditation Retreat, how is one supposed to generate calm and tranquility from the developing of insight into suffering and stress?? ;-)) (Am I the only one who recognizes the irony of such a goal?) Metta, James >> 30781 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks I agree with you Larry the translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi agree with respect to not revealing any disparagement of jhana, and since there is no other place in the Sutta Pitaka where the jhanas are disparaged, we then are forced to question Sister Upalavanna's translation. Kind regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/29/04 1:40:32 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 23 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:26:27 -0700 (MST) From: LBIDD@w... Subject: Re: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Robert, Please don't leave. I was just reacting to this interminable discussion on jhana which has been going on for years. I was getting tired of both sides of the debate. Plus I really thought this translation was odd. However, you are by far the better judge of translations, so I leave that to you. I sincerely regret if I offended you. Larry >> 30782 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello Howard, James, Swee Boon, Christine, Sarah and all, and thank-you ever so much for your kind and excellent comments and questions. First I believe we must accept that the Buddha was born into a culture and a period in which the Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads were the dominant liturgy. Therefore, he was a yogi who practiced within the context of the yogas. And, he articulated his teaching within that theoretical construct. While the historic Buddha chose not to embrace many of the concepts of Hinduism, still his philosophy and practice were well within the constraints of that liturgy. One need only read these three bodies of literature to find evidence for that fact. In the yoga sutras the basic theme is one practices meditation to give rise to absorption states (samadhis), which are numbered in 8 intervals, and culminate in nirvikalpa samadhi, which is otherwise known as nirvana. This concept of course is both philosophically and linguistically tied to the Buddhist concept of nirvana/nibbana and the jhanas. I find it rather intriguing that, while the Sutta pitaka is saturated and suffused with references to absorption (jhana), that one who claims to have a knowledge of the Tipitaka rejects that the Buddha taught an absorption (jhana) based philosophy and practice regimen. The Noble Eight Fold Path specifies Right Absorption (sama-samadhi). Right Absorption (sama-samadhi) is defined in terms of absorption (jhana) in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.21). DN 22.21 "And what is right {absorption (sama-samadhi)}? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana..." through the fourth jhana. Often the Ariyapariyesana Sutta is invoked by 'dry' practitioners [those who are so unfortunate to have not given rise to absorption (jhana)] as a means of proving the Buddha rejected jhana as a path to nibbana. His rejection of the two teachers who taught him absorption (jhana) is often interpreted as Sid dharta Gotama rejecting absorption (jhana). However If you read further in that same sutta you will find that the Buddha did not reject the absorption states (jhanas) that he learned under the instruction of Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, but he only found the absorption states he learned from them were simply not the final liberation through cessation (nibbana). However, he clearly validated the importance of all of the jhanas at the end of that sutta. Please read the following: Ariyapariyesana Sutta, MN 26.28 "Listen, Bhikkhus, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you. I shall teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as you are instructed, by realizing for yourselves here and now through direct knowledge you will soon enter upon and abide in that supreme goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the home life into homelessness." There are a few pages of discourse on dependent origination then he concludes with this: MN 26.34 "...quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana..." The Buddha continued to instruct his student to enter and abide in all of the 8 ecstatic absorption states (jhanas/dhyanas). And, he concluded by saying, for a bhikkhu who has learned to abide in the 8 jhanas... MN 26.42 "...his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom (panna). This bhikkhu is said to have blindfolded Mara, to have become invisible to the Evil One by depriving Mara's eye of opportunity, and to have crossed beyond attachment to the world. Often those who adhere to a 'dry' contemplative practice refer to one of Three Suttas in the Tipitaka that are believed to support their 'dry' practice. Three Suttas out of 34 suttas in the Digha Nikaya, and 152 in the Majjhima Nikaya, is only 1.6% of these two key volumes, which seems rather insignificant support for a rather flimsy claim. Just because there are three tiny references that support a 'dry' practice in the whole of the Pali canon, does not mean that Siddharta Gotama ever taught such a practice. These tiny and insignificant references could even be considered anomalous that could indicate errors in the Pali canon, such that the suttas or portions of those suttas in question might even be apocryphal. If you read any volume of the Pali canon I am confident you will find absorption (jhana) mentioned in almost every sutta. Therefore I believe it is reasonable to assume that absorption was a central concern of the historic Buddha. In conclusion I believe you will agree with me that the ecstatic absorption states (jhanas/dhyanas) were of central importance to the historic Buddha's teaching method, and the very means of arrival at cessation (nibbana). Best regards, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group A dialog support group for ecstatic contemplatives in a Buddhist context website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In a message dated 2/28/04 8:49:36 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << You say in the foregoing that "... absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane abilities." This sounds as if you are saying that complete enlightenment is achievable solely by mastering the jhanas. Were that the case, then one would sensibly ask what was novel in the Buddha's teaching, inasmuch as mastering the jhanas was already the quintessence of current yogic practice circa 500 BCE? With metta, Howard >> 30783 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James it is so good to hear from you again. May I only point out, as I have already done so, that Satipatthana is the practice and jhana is the attainment as a consequence of executing the practice correctly, thus it is right absorption (sama-samadhi) Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/28/04 8:49:36 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << I think this is a classic example of how people are going to read exactly what they want to read. And they are going to look for details that support their already established point-of-view and skip those details that don't. But really, this is very simple. Go back to the basics: The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path. Of the path, Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness are two different things. The Buddha described them differently, listed them differently, and intended them to be different. Right Mindfulness he defined as Satipatthana; Right Concentration he defined as Jhana. I now firmly believe that they both should be established in one's practice and pursued, just as the Buddha taught. There are no short- cuts. Satipatthana without Jhana is either too weak or mentally disturbing. Jhana without Satipatthana doesn't bring an end to the effluents. But, because they should both be present does that mean that they are the same thing or should be considered the same? No. >> 30784 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > I agree with you Larry the translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and > Bhikkhu > Bodhi agree with respect to not revealing any disparagement of jhana, > and since > there is no other place in the Sutta Pitaka where the jhanas are > disparaged, we > then are forced to question Sister Upalavanna's translation. ..... I agree with you that the Buddha never disparaged the jhanas or indicated that they are anything but very highly developed wholesome states. Would you indicate the lines in the latter translation that disparage them , so we can look at them in the various translations more carefully. If you also give the same lines in the TB and BB translations (without any alterations please;-)), that would be even better. If necessary, we can look at the Pali too with some assistance. Metta, Sarah ====== 30785 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hi Mike and Christine, > Nice to see you around again, Mike, can we hope to read you more > frequently? :-) Yes, yes! It was pleasant to see your name in the message index, like a cool breeze on a hot day. Please do post more frequently, though I know that you may not have much spare time. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 30786 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:10pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi James and Christine, > I love the monkey story! > > James, I think when it says only the Buddha could eradicate vasana, it > means the Sammasambuddha rather than the Paccekabuddha. I don't > remember exactly what all the differences between them are. Both are > self-enlightened, but our Sammasambuddha is the Teacher and has > qualities the other (private, solitary, silent, etc) Buddhas don't. > > peace, > connie Thanks for this information. I guess it isn't related to the sutta I was referring to at all, or if it is it is only slightly related. I really love the monkey story too! Talk about someone who isn't in denial! Most people would scoff if told that they are going to be reborn a monkey. I don't think I mentioned anything about Paceekabuddha's in my last e- mail but I don't really know the difference between those and Sammasambuddha's. But, honestly, I am not sure if the Lord Buddha was 100% perfect in all ways. It seems to me that he still had a weak spot when it came to women. I was just reading AN123 "Don't Judge Others" where he is to be reported as saying: "Who, indeed is this female lay disciple Migasala, this foolish, inexperienced woman with a woman's wit? And who (in comparison) are those who have the knowledge of other persons' different qualities?' Woman's wit? As opposed to a man's wit? It doesn't seem that the Buddha was real big on gender equality. But, oh well, he doesn't have to be god-like to me for me to find refuge in him. He is still the supreme teacher of humans and devas. Metta, James 30787 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello James it is so good to hear from you again. May I only point out, as I > have already done so, that Satipatthana is the practice and jhana is the > attainment as a consequence of executing the practice correctly, thus it is right > absorption (sama-samadhi) > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks I believe you are quite mistaken in this belief. Satipatthana doesn't result in any of the Jhana states. To summarize, the Buddha described Satipatthana as the `only direct path' and jhana as a `peaceful abiding in the here and now'. Perhaps you should go back and re-read the appropriate suttas and stop changing the words to suit your taste. Metta, James 30788 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Hi Christine (& Icaro & All), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello all, Thanks for your kind comments and all the smiles on what, I have to confess, was rather a bad 'hair' day for the moderators. I don't mind admitting I was close to pulling mine out and beginning to wonder if it was really the hair (more gel?, trim?, new style?) or perhaps my poor eye-sight playing tricks;-) Many thanks to all those who are trying to encourage RobK (I'd like to add a pleeeeaaase!!) and to Nina for your fair comments too. I’d like to thank all the contributors for helping us forget what bad hair days are almost every day these days and especially to the very regular contributors who form the backbone of DSG, even while we’re on holiday and who make our task such a pleasure. Of these, Larry is certainly one of the most consistent and cool;-). Without his keen, questioning approach and regular installments of ADL, Satipatthana Sutta commentaries and now Visuddhimagga, many other invaluable posts would not be written. Different views and understandings are natural and healthy as I see it. I’ve learnt so much from all the questioning and probing (or poking;-)) of my comments here. At home, I just get agreement - zap, end of discussion;-) Like Nina, I've also learnt so much over the years from K.Sujin's patient example when those with completely different views and understandings, sometimes sent by other teachers, would challenge every word she said, sometimes not very politely either. She'd always stress that knowing the present reality, nama or rupa, even at these times, is most precious. "The dhamma is not in the book, it's at this moment", she'd repeat. May the following lines you quoted, Chris, be a condition for all of us to have compassion and patience when the Dhamma is indeed so ‘hard to see’ for others as it is for ourselves. May we all continue sharing and learning together. “Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." .... C:>generally a safe and > supportive place to ask questions and learn, and to occasionally, > disagree. .... Chris, truly we’re still learning on the job, often walking a tightrope, too tightly strung for some, too loosely for others;-) Let’s hope we can make it an even ‘safer’ and more ‘supportive’ spot to be with just an occasional adjustment as required, giving a little slack for our own eyesight ‘obscured by darkness’ from time to time and that of others too. To RobK or anyone else - we listen carefully off-list if anyone is having a problem. We like to try and help and learn to do a better job if we can. .... > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) > > Talkative lot, aren't you?! :-) .... ;-) Keep smiling and talking. I am now;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30789 From: Eznir Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Dear Howard, -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that there is, indeed, a mix of predecessor conditioning and simultaneous conditioning. In particular, I think that vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana are co-occurring and mutually conditioning. -------------------------------------------------- eznir: I would put it this way, predecessor conditioning occurs in every progressive moment in a backdrop of simultaneous conditioning. That doesn't mean that simultaneous conditioning takes a back seat in the day to day affairs, but that they interact together. I think that, predecessor conditioning is the cause of simultaneous conditioning's existence. While simultaneous conditioning is the cause of predecessor conditioning's operation. In this way they act together in unison! I think these two as sequential and simultaneous modes of operation of paticcasamuppada. While we are on the topic of paticcasamuppada, which is a structural framework, I would say that, existence(persistence of 5-hold-aggr) itself stands on the basic structure, which is that: When there is this, this is. With the arising of this, this arises. When there is not this, this is not. With the cessation of this, this ceases. [see Culasakuludayi Sutta MN-79] The 12-factored paticcasamuppada is just an example of this basic structure. On a careful reading of the Suttas, one would find that, all of the Teachings in it are signifying this basic fundamental structure of things in general. One would find statements like, "with this…… abandon that" or "with this….. one arrives at that" and so on. In certain suttas this basic structure is explicitly stated in a way similar to paticcasamuppada. If I could find the time to locate them, I will post them. I think what all this means is that if the structure to the persistence of this entity(5-hold-aggr) is known, it would show a way to dismantle it, and therefore realize the cessation of Dukkha! Perhaps, this is what Ven. Sariputta meant when he said, "One who sees paticcasamuppada sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees paticcasamuppada". [see Mahahattipadopama Sutta MN-28]. More food for thought; what precisely is these two types of conditioning, or these two modes of operaton of the ps. metta eznir 30790 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Nina, and Mike :-) > > This is a good point - my previous spiritual path valued 'righteous > anger'; it was O.K. to be outraged by cruelty, tragedy, rudeness > and incompetence. One of the hardest lessons to understand, since I > have learned about buddhism in daily life, is coming to see > that 'dosa' is 'dosa', no matter how I dress it up. > > Nice to see you around again, Mike, can we hope to read you more > frequently? :-) .... Hear, hear with your last comment to Mike. Anumodana in learning this hard lesson. And isn't it also the same with regard to attachment and ignorance too? We desperately try to justify all our defilements (and bad-hair days;-)), not realizing how much harder these avoidance strategies are making life for us and those around us. I find those justifications creep in all the time, but, slowly, slowly with right undestanding and helpful reminders, there can be a little more dressing down (and travelling lighter;-)). Metta, Sarah ======== 30791 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:18pm Subject: Dear group, Thanks for the kind messages on and off-list. Larry of course I understand, I was mainly reacting to the tone of the group in general. I feel this is not an easy place to discuss Dhamma. I am spoiled: when I talk in Thailand or Japan the people want to know every detail, they are so respectful of Dhamma. On dsg some members seem to enjoy arguments and that is of course as it must be, but I often feel that I am forcing Dhamma on people here. And that is not the right way. It only adds to kamma. In the Dhammapada VIII(2) there is the story of seven monks in the time of Kassapa Buddha. This was in the last half of the sasana of Kassapa, when the behaviour of monks and respect for Dhamma was declining. They were greatly concerned and energised by this and thinking 'so long as our religion has not yet disappeared' (burlingame 222) they would endeavour, went to a mountain to develop alone. Some attained enlightenment but the others died of starvation. Much later in the time of this Buddha era one of those who starved was reborn as Bahiya. I've always loved this story. I can't follow their great, great path, but where I live in Japan the mountains are almost at my doorstep. I always find being in them conducive to contemplation. I will try to reply to Michael's question later today. RobertK 30792 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Ken O, S:I’m glad to read all your reflections;-)You make many wise comments. However, I’m not sure I’m with you on a couple of points here: --- Ken O wrote: > > Dont speak if it is not dhamma is a precept which I consider deeply > because whenever when I talk, is it because of conceit, or moha or or > aversion. As I said earlier in my email, simple pleasantaries could > be a result of our need to comply societal values or conceit. ..... S:Just like when we talk about any other ‘situation’, such as walking, sitting on the cushion, discussing dhamma or washing dishes, there can be kusala and akusala cittas in between the many sense door processes. In Bangkok, I actually discussed washing dishes with Lodewijk;-) We might feel washing dishes is a waste of time or not a ‘dhamma situation’, but Lodewijk was saying how he likes to help in the kitchen so that Nina has more time for her writing. This is just a simple example of kusala whilst washing dishes. When we utter pleasantries, such as in the lift or in the shop, it can be with metta for those around. Most people prefer to see a smile or hear a pleasantry than to see a frown. It can be a consideration to others to listen and discuss what they’d like to hear rather than imposing our own agenda (dhamma or silence) on them, though I know you’re not suggesting this. I teach my students to be considerate and courteous in these ways, because I think we’re already experts on thinking of ourselves and opportunities to care for others are precious. Living in the centre of Hong Kong, we have a lot of visitors passing through, many with no interest in dhamma. Usually I’d rather just be reading texts or writing here, but showing kindness and patience to others is never wrong. I think this is the point we were discussing with Vince in Bangkok. We can only learn more about our ‘own’ cittas when they arise. Again, I’ve learnt a lot from K.Sujin’s example over the years. I remember when she stayed with my family in England, she would wander round my mother’s large garden, politely taking an interest and listening to my mother’s explanations, helping in the kitchen with metta, telling my parents to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (James, she’d tell you to call her whatever you liked;-)) and then discussing dhamma just with those who specially visited for this purpose and with this interest. If we have an idea that some situations or topics are more suitable for sati and wisdom to grow, again I think there’s a subtle (or not so subtle?) clinging to ‘occasion’ or limitation of the opportunity for kusala to grow. Defilements will arise according to accumulations whether we’re discussing dish-washing or dhamma, I think. Whatever the topic, it’s conditioned anyway;-). ... <...> >There can be many enlightening > experience just reflecting before or after or during our talk. When > we talk it is also rupa that talk, reflecting on the three > characterisic on it can also be a wonderful experience. ... S:This is just thinking about the 3 characteristics, different from direct understanding of realities as they appear. ... >IMHO a > sombering fact about talking is that when we talk other than dhamma > latent tendecy will be reconditioned be it a necessity for us to > communicate with friends, family etc. .... S:Again, it depends on the citta, rather than thinking or worrying about latent tendencies or the topic. .... >Sometimes when I get carried > away then latent tendecy has already manifested. Definitely it is > still up to individual though ;-). ..... S:We’ve talked before abour ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ lobha (attachment). There’s bound to be attachment arising at any time, even now as we look at the screen. The aim is not to avoid it (with more clinging to the self without lobha), but to begin to understand it, not by rearranging the deck-chairs, but by living naturally and easily with family and friends, working and so on. Life should be easier not harder with more understanding. I like your examples of ‘going against the stream’ and encouraging your family and friends with compassion. As you said: ‘There is no need to purposely do it or to meditate about it. It is right here and right now.’ I also thank you for your reminders of subtle kilesa and moha which we mostly have no idea about at all, especially when the feelings are neutral as you say. This has turned out far longer than intented.Let me sign off and requote from an earlier post some textual comments on the question of topic and wise attention, particularly relating to this point: “MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention.” Comments welcome! Metta, Sarah QUOTE from earlier post: >Sarah: “Antony gave this helpful quote: Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech": "There is another place in the commentaries where it mentions that not all talk about kings and thieves and ministers (and armies, dangers and wars) etc. is idle chatter -it depends on the context in which it is spoken because even the Buddha sometimes he would use them as examples to illustrate a point of Dhamma. So in the context of Dhamma sometimes you have to talk about these things - and talk about food or whatever. So it depends on the context in which it's been spoken - if it is of benefit to somebody in a Dhammic sense in order to teach them some aspect of the Dhamma then you can talk about these things." ***** For most of us, most the time our talk is ‘idle chatter’. However, I do think the Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2), with the emphasis on ayoniso & yoniso manasikara (unwise and wise attention) is helpful in this connection: “What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance increases in him and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to.” ***** B.Bodhi helpfully refers to some commentary notes here: 1.“MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.” 2. “MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhanas), the taint of being arises and increases; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four “perversions” (of permanence, pleasure, self and beautiful etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases.” 3. “MA says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry,attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it dentotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aaramma.na)...” “ ============================================================= 30793 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:13pm Subject: 1)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > RobertK: > > Now the only path > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. > > Michael: > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. ==================================================================== Dear Michael, I supply a summary only. In the commentary to Aane~njasappaaya sutta (MN 106) it is said: Uparipannasa-Atthakatha 4.67 Samaapatti.m taava pada.t.thaana.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa When he has made the attainment of jhana the proximate cause of insight and increased vipassana, arahatta.m ga.nhanto bhikkhu naava.m vaa u.lumpaadiini vaa nissaaya and he attains arahatship, the bhikkhu who is as it were depending on a boat or a raft mahogha.m taritvaa paara.m gacchanto viya na kilamati. croses the great flood and reaches the other side, is not tired. ========================== The above is the path of the great ones of the past who attained arahatship using mundane jhana as basis. These are the highest type of arahant. Below is the path of the Sukkhavipassaka- the very lowest type of arahant. Sukkhavipassako pana paki.n.nakasa'nkhaare sammasitvaa arahatta.m ga.nhanto But the person with dry insight who has thoroughly known the particular conditioned dhammas and attains arahatship, baahubalena sota.m chinditvaa paara.m gacchanto viya kilamati. , after he has as it were cut the stream with much force and reaches the other side, is tired. ___ Bhikkhu Bodhi gives some other notes from the commentary of this sutta (M.106): In the sutta Ananda asks the Buddha, "a bhikkhu is practising thus: 'If it were not it would be mine; it will not be and it will not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am abandonding. Thus he attains equanimity. Venerable sir , does such a one attain Nibbana?."......The note by bodhi (1021)from Majjima attahakatha, "Anandas question is intended to elicit from the Buddha an account of the practice of the dry-insight meditator(sukkhavipassaka) who attains arahatship without depending on a jhanic attainment." Sutta "This is deathless, namely the liberation of mind through not clinging" note 1023 Majjhima atthakatha says that the arahstship of the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) is intended. RobertK 30794 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: (much snipping) > It would be a great loss to this group if you should > leave, and, selfishly, a loss for me as well, as I learn so much > from you - you are responsible for many of us joining dsg in the > first place, and I'm sure you've written a high percentage of the > Useful Posts. Misunderstandings are just that, and can be cleared > away with goodwill. Please reconsider. As one who has been spending a lot of time in the Useful Posts these days, I can vouch for a high percentage of the posts being Rob's. As a result, after Nina, Rob has become my principle teacher these days. So I'll add a voice in the selfish-loss column and hope he sticks around. I was wondering about the history of this group. I guess in the pre- internet days, you corresponded through newsletters, and while there were therefore fewer exchanges, there was also less discord. And more time to reflect on what one read. Nevertheless, and for what it's worth, I think the flow of ideas in discussion here can become like a form of practice, conditioning kusula day in day out and giving many opportunities (though far less than in any other forum I've participated in) to be aware of dosa and process it skillfully. Metta, Philip P.S I wish I could hear one of your talks, Rob. But if I recall you live in Kyushu - too far. But hopefully one day... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Larry, > > I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; > > can you show me where it is wrong. > > > > ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > > > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in > > regard > > > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize > > > whatever we do or don't do. "" > > > > Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any > > comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say > > which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems > > whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like > this. > > Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. > > RobertK > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > Hi Robert, > > > > > > This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you > > have > > > given. Here is a better one: > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html > > > 30795 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:23pm Subject: 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael > > RobertK: > > > > Now the only path > > > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not > at > > > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > jhanas. > > > > Michael: > > > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > ==================================================================== Dear Michael, This is a repeat of an old post I made about the way of vipassana and the way of samatha. When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (Mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na)[i.e the objects of samatha] with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only thinking about Dhamma. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana must also develop this type of special samadhi. The sukkha-vipassaka develops this profound samadhi without having attained mundane jhana. Relating this to the suttas there are hundreds if not thousands of suttas where the Buddha taught the way of insight into the khandhas (aggregates) ayatanas(sense fields) and dhatus (elements). I give one example: Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?' 'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ... by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of once-returning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by one who is an anagami (non-returner)?' 'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'. 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self- possession even in this present life.'End sutta _________ It is not a matter of whether one is sitting or lying or walking or standing as to whether these khandas(paramattha dhammas) can be insighted. It depends on understanding. Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what meditation means in the Buddhist sense. RobertK 30796 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:25pm Subject: 3)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael > > > RobertK: > > > > Now the only path > > > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not > at > > > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > jhanas. > > > > Michael: > > > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > ==================================================================== Dear Michael, The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin)By Buddhaghosa gives many details about lokiya [mundane]jhana and lokuttara jhana: P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"ENDQUOTE It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala including the mundane jhanas. It is not saying to avoid kusala or jhana , simply that these are very much part of the causes of samsara. The start of the next chapter is where it discusses the eight-fold path which leads out of samsara The Discourse on lokuttara (transcendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes." So Buddhaghosa clearly distinguishes lokiya jhana from lokuttara jhana. Even the sukkha vipassaka , dry-insight worker attains this type of jhana (momentarily) at the moment he experiences nibbana. And because of its special properties, including samadhi, it is considered as being of the same strength as first (mundane) jhana. RobertK 30797 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. .... S: ??? Please explain. .... > Before The Buddha, all beings held Atta. Atta is only released at the > first gateway to Nibbana. .... S: Of course you mean wrong view of atta. No atta to exist in the first place. .... >If someone is not ariyan then she or he > will hold atta view however she or he is saying I do not have atta I > just have anatta. If already passed through the gateway and on the > path no journey is needed. .... S: No more journey to eradicate atta view anyway. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Whether you are talking like this or not paramattha dhamma is > paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo exists or not paramattha dhamma is > paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo lives in Taiwan or Singapore or Korea > or Japan, no one is living there but only nama and rupa there. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Fully agreed (but as others would say, you need to know where you live when you book your ticket to Bkk;-)) .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-) Just smile. I do not laugh. Can you slow down realities? In > which way? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Of course not, that's why I was questioning the special focus or lasting concentration. For example, by the time there's a focus on the sound just heard, it's long since gone and other realities are appearing through different senses. Does this make any sense or are we still smiling at odds here? .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate > Sotapatti Magga Citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: The understanding of anatta has to begin with theoretical right understanding of anatta and the tools and map have to be laid out accordingly. If they ar laid out with an idea of atta, along the route more understanding of atta rather than anatta will be developed. No point in taking the journey in this case as I see it. .... S...I don't believe any citta or cetasika stays at all, > falling away as soon as it has arisen. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Are you showing up that you have arrived at the milestone > called Bhanga Nana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: LOL, as you remind us, no Htoo or Sarah to arrive anywhere;-) Again, we'd better be sure we start with the right tools and the right map. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I asked because someone in your list once clearly mentioned > that you are Mahayana. And there are messages that are not with > Theravada teachings. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: ???? I've read every message on DSG and to my knowledge you're the first to suggest this;-) Perhaps you mixed me up with someone else??? Recently, the only threads with any mention of Mahayana teachings have been ones that were comparing the use of terms such as sabhava and paramattha which can be difficult for those familiar with Nagarjuna or Mahayana to appreciate. It would be unkind of me to ask you to look for a post where I switched sides because I know you won't find one (but you're welcome to try;-)). We're relaxed about occasional lines and references to other schools but not with big slabs of quoted material from them. You can contact us off-list anytime you think we've gone too soft;-). .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: To grasp the idea necessary for realization of realities, > learning all Pali language will be futile but a little is sufficed. > But necessary words need to be learned in detail. There are many > shifts. .... S: I completely agree. I also appreciated your detailed response to our friend who likes to change words in translations without careful consideration of the meaning of terms like vitakka, vicara, samadhi and so on. .... > As you are just about to be on the right path you should not think > that there is 'you'. You should not think that this is mine this is > my turn etc etc. This is my real kindness. Please do not attach to > anything. All the same, there is no 'me' no 'Htoo'. .... S: Right...no me or you to be on the right path either;-) .... > > Just a citta arises and immediately falls away. Due to that citta, > cittaja rupa arises at the same time of arising of that citta. That > cittaja rupa is the actions of this typing. Arising of these words > has conditions. Nothing arises without any condition. .... S: Good tools getting sharpened all the time. .... > > There is no country and there is no continent but just vanna, sadda, > gandha, rasa, pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo etc etc. .... S: Excellent! .... When is your next DSG > meeting? How long will it be? How many will be attending? What are > the activities at the meeting? How much is a day stay at hotels there > where the meeting will be? I will be looking forward to hearing from > you, Sarah. .... S: I could also answer with paramattha dhammas as you do to my personal ones;-) Every Saturday there is an English discussion with A.Sujin, Sukin and other friends (small group). Azita will be there in the middle of April just after Easter (dates?). I don't know if she will persuade others to join. We weren't planning to go away, but we could be persuaded to go (if you or others wished to join)for the first of her two weekends as I noticed I have an Easter holiday then. It's just informal discussion like here, but face to face. Everyone makes their own accomodation arrangements according to budget and so on. Best to be close to the Foundation. Please contact Sukin, Betty or me off-list for any other details. Everyone would be delighted to have you join and you'd be taken good care of. Ken O lives quite close, so I know he'd consider joining again. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > May you really see Anatta. .... S:Thanks. Remember, no 'Sarah' or 'Htoo' to see;-) Metta, Sarah ===== > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 30798 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Sarah k: I think I have said that one should not followed this precept strictly if you are a householder . This precept is more for monks/nuns. Hence Buddh speaks only five precepts for householders. I am not following it strictly either. I just saying be very mindful on the motivations behind each talk. It may have unconsciously conditioned akusala without one knowing it. S: > In Bangkok, I actually discussed washing dishes with Lodewijk;-) We might feel washing dishes is a waste of time or not a ‘dhamma situation’, but Lodewijk was saying how he likes to help in the kitchen so that Nina has more time for her writing. This is just a simple example of kusala whilst washing dishes. k: Why a need to discuss the washing of dishes in the first place? Anyway I did not say that simple things like walking or washing dishes are not dhamma, they are dhamma and they are explain in sattipatthana. S: When we utter pleasantries, such as in the lift or in the shop, it can be with metta for those around. Most people prefer to see a > smile or hear a pleasantry than to see a frown. k: Is there a need to give a smile just because most people prefer to see one in the first place? I dont think just because we did not utter pleasantaries for other first, we are not polite. That is called conditioned by self view or societal view. S> I teach my students to be considerate and courteous in these ways, > because I think we’re already experts on thinking of ourselves and > opportunities to care for others are precious. Living in the centre of Hong Kong, we have a lot of visitors passing through, many with no interest in dhamma. K: Definitely when we teach others who do not know much about dhammas with societal moral values and ethics that should be followed. Just like I teach my son to be courteous S> Again, I’ve learnt a lot from K.Sujin’s example over the years. I > remember when she stayed with my family in England, she would wander round my mother’s large garden, politely taking an interest and listening to my mother’s explanations, helping in the kitchen with metta, telling my parents to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (James, she’d tell you to call her whatever you liked;-)) and then discussing dhamma just with those who specially visited for this purpose and with this interest. k: Did you see Buddha doing that when he visit a house and start this type of conversation ;-). She is lay person that is alright. S: > If we have an idea that some situations or topics are more suitable for sati and wisdom to grow, again I think there’s a subtle (or not so subtle?) clinging to ‘occasion’ or limitation of the opportunity for kusala to grow. Defilements will arise according to accumulations whether we’re discussing dish-washing or dhamma, I think. Whatever the topic, it’s conditioned anyway;-). k: Yes, but why create more when we can be more mindful of our motivations. I say to you once in Bkk that if we are not doing anything kusala then it is aksuala :). That is why zealous is conditioned to arise as one knows the danger of not guarding the senses because any moment Mara will attack. It is a natural condition that is not need to purposely to mindful but understanding of this will conditioned zeal to be mindful. > ... > S:This is just thinking about the 3 characteristics, different from > direct understanding of realities as they appear. k: If you dont think intellectually in the first place and ponder its meaning, it will not conditioned direct understanding. We must first start with right understaning at the pannati level. If we dont even consider dhamma in the pannati level for eg reading dhamma books, there is no way we can conditioned right direct knowledge. k: Sarah I think you and Jon has misunderstood about purposely avoiding or self impose. If right understand arose that know the danger of useless talk, one will know why one will naturally stop talking unnecessary. It is something one have to experience oneself to know its meaning and to know that akusala is everywhere. And this does not affect ones live. In fact this condition zeal to be more mindful and ardent. k: As what Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech", Buddha only talks about kings etc only with the intention to teach the dhamma. Other than that he dont mentioned it. How could Buddha who said that such talk is low talk and then encourage others to follow it. It will not be possible. Hence one only talk about this if one wish to seed some dhamma on others or not one will not talk about it (strictly speaking that is for monks/nuns). So do you think when you start a conversation about dish washing is the intention to seed dhamma. So it is, good for you, if it is not then we have to think what is the motivation behind it. When you quote Sabhassa sutta, idle chatter is definitely unwise attention. Ken O 30799 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 0:13am Subject: 4)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael > wrote: > > > RobertK: > > > > Now the only path > > > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not > at > > > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > jhanas. > > > > Michael: > > > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > ==================================================================== Dear Michael, The Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm ""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who· encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who · encounters a Buddha in person, but · who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs · to study the sermon and the exposition, and then · to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Anguttara-nikaya indicate will be one thousand years for Arahats who attain mastery of jhana with abhinna, one thousand years for Arahats who are sukkhavipassaka, one thousand years for Non-returners, one thousand years for Once-returners, and one thousand years for Stream-winners. RobertK 30800 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:02am Subject: "To sleep, perchance to dream." Hi Howard & All, I agreed with all Ken O’s comments on this thread on dreaming. Visible object is only experienced in the eye-door process(except in the immediately subsequent mind door process only). This morning, my alarm went off early. Sound impinging on the ear-sense interrupted a rather unpleasant dream -- I’d lost my purse and was panicking around;-(. When my eyes opened and I started ‘coming to’, the dream stopped instantly, but then for a few moments, led by attachment, I closed my eyes again and even continued the dream a little, almost curious to see if I found my purse;-). A couple of seconds later, wide awake, sounds, visible objects, experiences through the body-sense and normal mind door activity. I liked Sukin’s suggestion about the mind-door activity uninterrupted by sense-door activity as being responsible for the ‘unreal’ dreams. I totally accept and agree that the sights and sounds seem real and seem like regular rupas. This is the nature of ‘phantoms, dreams’. We read in the texts that panna cannot develop while sleeping. Truly, there is no opportunity to guard the sense doors at these times. However, as soon as the alarm goes off, as soon as there is hearing or experiencing throught the body-sense, no matter how ‘fuzzy’ the experience, sati can arise and perform it’s guarding duty. As Nina said, also in the arupa plane, there’s no chance to become enlightened because rupas cannot be known without any experience of them through the sense doors. ..... Jon quoted from the Vism1: “He enters upon the way of its restraint’: [the meaning is] he enters upon the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. It is the same one of whom it is said ‘he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty’.” A little later he also quoted Vism1, 57: “Herein..when a visible datum as object comes into the eye focus,....there is non-restraint if unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness arises at the moment of impulsion. When this happens, it is called non-restraint of the eye faculty.” ..... I really love the sutta Victor quoted about Subha the nun, an arahant, who plucked out her eye for the one who desired it: “For in the midst of praise & blame, pleasure and pain, my mindfulness stands firm’. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig14.html For Subha, there were no more dreams or any kind of distorted perceptions (vipallasas). As it says in Vibh-a 2055 “But only trainers and ordinary men see these four kinds of dreams owing to non-abandonment of the perversions. Non-trainers do not see them owing to the abandonment of the perversions.” Meanwhile, in ignorance, our perception is distorted whenever there isn’t awareness during the javana process, including in our dreams. Subha reminded her admirer: “in what will the mind there make its home? This body of mine, which is just like that, when devoid of dhammas doesn't function. When, devoid of dhammas, it doesn't function, in what will the mind there make its home? Like a mural you've seen, painted on a wall, smeared with yellow orpiment, there your vision has been distorted, meaningless your human perception. Like an evaporated mirage, like a tree of gold in a dream, like a magic show in the midst of a crowd --” Howard, I’m also reminded of a documentary I saw recently about John Nash, the famous mathematician. There were a few brief inerviews with him. At the end, he was asked why he thought his schizophrenic voices and madness had suddenly seemed to disappear. He answered simply: ‘I stopped paying attention to them’. Before, he had given them great importance, thinking they might give him some essential messages. Wrong views can be very dangerous if followed to extremes. I’m not saying I think that simple misapprehension of dreams or simple curiosity about lucid dreaming is in this category. However, any understanding of namas and rupas and distinguishing them from concepts can help a lot in this mad world our delusions and illusions create. Metta, Sarah ====== 30801 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:24am Subject: SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request - 3 Dear Group, Following on from Azita's post, where the Brahmaa Sahampati begged the Blessed One to teach the Dhamma for the sake of 'beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma.' "Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahmaa's request, out of compassion for beings surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha. [n. 370] As he did so, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and difficult to teach, and a few who dwelt seeing blame and fear in the other world. [n.371] Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses might be born in the water, grow up in the water, and thrive while submerged in the water, without rising up from the water; some lotuses might be born in the water, grow up in the water, and stand at an even level with the water; some lotuses might be born in the water and grow up in the water, but would rise up from the water and stand without being soiled by the water - so too, surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach,and a few who dwelt seeing blame and fear in the other world. Having seen this, he answered Brahmaa Sahampati in verse: "Open to them are the doors to the Deathless: Let those who have ears release faith. Foreseeing trouble, O Brahmaa, I did not speak The refined, sublime Dhamma among human beings." Then Brahmaa Sahampati, thinking, "The Blessed One has given his consent [to my request] regarding the teaching of the Dhamma," paid homage to the Blessed One and disappeared right there." note 370 (part): Spk: The eye of a Buddha (buddhacakkhu) is a name for the knowledge of the degrees of maturity in the faculties of beings (indriyaparopariyatta~n~na) and the knowledge of the dispositions and underlying tendencies of beings (aasayaanusaya~n~na). note 371 (part): Paralokavajjabhayadassaavino. At MLDB, p. 261, the ambiguous compound is rendered "seeing fear in blame and in the other world." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: CONGRATULATIONS !!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) Update *** Dear Group, Just to be absolutely accurate - the different time zones must have meant a few late posts were added to the total for February 04 - previously stated to be 1214. In actual fact the Home Page is showing: :-) :-):-) :-)ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY POSTS :-):-):-):-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 30803 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack & Howard, You’ve both raised this verse 372 from the Dhammapada. I really have no answers, just a few more comments: > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > ‘There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, > (Natthi jhaanaâm apa~n~nassa) > Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. > (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato) > In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, > (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) > He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. > (sa ve nibbaanasantike) .... 1. In the Dhp commenery, verses 368- 376 are given together and I think should be read as ‘a whole’. 2. Just before reciting the verses, we read that the Buddha ‘scrutinized those monks [formerly thieves], chose a form of instruction suited to their dispositions...’ 3. In the previous verse, ‘meditate’(jhaya) refers to the development of samatha and vipassana. Earlier (verses 368-370) the references are to eradicating the fetters and realizing nibbana. The commentary notes to verse 371 given before by Robk indicates in this case the reference is to the 8 attainments (jhanas) and to ‘insight, wisdom, path and fruit’ with nibbana as object. 4. In the development of vipassana, the faculties are balanced, concentration and wisdom are balanced. When the path factors arise, the concentration (even for a sukkhavipassika) is equivalent to access or jhana level concentration. 5. In verse 372,’in the presence (santika) of Nibbana’, i.e reference is being made to the path and fruit consciousness as I understand. I think the reference above is either a) to indicate for these monks that having attained the highest jhanas and developed wisdom, nibbana is realized by them ‘in tandem’ or with jhana as basis or b) in general concentration and wisdom have to be balanced for the development of vipassana bhavana without implying jhana has to be developed first. If RobK or anyone with the Carter edition (I only have the Burlingame) with more detailed notes to verse 372, that would be helpful. Nina may also have more comments. This was the post I quoted before with details to the previous verse: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 ... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which > is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same > thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in > Theravada > Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at > http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. .... I confess I’ve read Gunaratana’s work thoroughly and have it somewhere not to hand. It contains a lot of useful detail, though I think there were some conclusions that I found a bit misleading. I’ll look at the TB one later, I hope or you can post a shortish extract from either. I really know almost nothing about jhana. I agree with Howard that the Buddha 'never advised against meditating' if we are referring to samatha and vipassana bhavana here. What I questioned in my treadmill post to Victor (or thought I was questioning) was the link, the understanding involved for those of us today who specially sit and focus on a particular object. This is because, as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is essential for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. Is there any room for agreement on the last paragraph? If not, that's fine too;-) Metta, Sarah ====== p.s > Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. .... I didn’t get the underlining....I just get all Howard’s squiggles (don’t worry about it, H);-) Also, Howard, eat congee and avoid orange juice, too much vitC and acidic forming foods for kidney stones!! ..... 30804 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Group, Being Unfettered § 2.3. "And what are the effluents that are to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... does not discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention. And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality arises, and the arisen effluent of sensuality increases; the unarisen effluent of becoming... the unarisen effluent of ignorance arises, and the arisen effluent of ignorance increases... This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of- the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from stress. "The well-instructed noble disciple... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... And what are the ideas fit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality does not arise, and the arisen effluent of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen effluent of becoming... the unarisen effluent of ignorance does not arise, and the arisen effluent of ignorance is abandoned... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the effluents that are to be abandoned by seeing. [MN 2] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30805 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Sarah, Sarah: (James, she'd tell you to call her whatever you liked;-)) James: Hehehe…I would probably call her whatever everyone else calls her. The reason I made that statement about not calling her `Ajahn' because, from my experience with Thai temples, only the highest and most learned of monks are called `Ajahn'. If I called any of the regular monks at my temple `Ajahn', other than the Abbot or the meditation teacher or a visiting monk of high stature, they would quickly correct me and tell me to give them the title of `Phra'. After a few mistakes of this sort I quickly learned who was an `Ajahn' and who was a `Phra'. Therefore, from my experience, it would be simply unthinkable to call a layperson `Ajahn'!!! Since Sujin is a part of the Thai culture and must surely know this distinction, I am surprised that she allows anyone to give her the title of `Ajahn'. But, hey, I'm not from that culture! I don't really care. I will call her `Ajahn' all day and all night if that is what is expected. ;-)) Metta, James Ps. BTW, why doesn't K. Sujin participate in this group? Honestly, I don't like to talk about people too much behind their back. She could actually answer my questions and concerns herself rather than having her `posse' field my comments! ;-)) 30806 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi James, op 28-02-2004 16:23 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: >> op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > James: I am sorry Nina if I have been causing you or anyone else > distress Nina: not so, you only harm yourself. J: So, what did the Buddha say about this subject? What is the Buddha's > dhamma? Did he say that householders cannot practice jhana? Did he > say that householders shouldnot practice jhana? No. Here is what he > said: N: Leaving out the sutta for the moment, this is only partly related to the main issue: is A. Sujin pandering? Pander: help and encourage a person in evil passions or designs. J: So, Nina, it seems to me that K. Sujin is mistaken when she teaches > householders that they cannot and shouldnot practice jhana. She is > pandering to what they want to hear, removing them from personal > responsibility, and setting up an atmosphere and belief leading to > failure. N: A. Sujin does not tell others: do not practise jhana or do practise jhana. She does not tell others: do this, don't do that. She speaks very little, except in the Thai sessions, when she explains about satipatthana in daily life. She mostly replies with a counter question to let people find out for themselves whether they have any understanding. She wants people to find out for themselves: do they know their own citta? This is the scenario you can expect when you visit her: James Mitchel: Can laypeople today practise jhana? A. Sujin: Is there any understanding at this moment? If the Buddha had not become enlightened we would not know realities, and these occur right now. He taught us about seeing, hearing, smelling, thinking. Is there no seeing at this moment, and is there any understanding of seeing? If there are no eyesense and no visible object there cannot be seeing, it is conditioned. The moment of seeing is very short, but afterwards akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise and these last longer. When these are akusala cittas they know visible object with attachment, aversion and ignorance. (N: see the many suttas about seeing and the defilements on account of visible object.) Do we realize at this moment whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta? We are in the darkness of ignorance, only panna can bring light. We may think, I am pradtising, so that I have panna. But what does panna know?> End of scenario. N: Jhana is developed so that one becomes free from attachment to sensepleasures, and therefore it is necessary to realize the very moment of attachment to sensepleasures. A. Sujin does not gain or lose anything by James' opinion. I also feel the same about James' opinion about my writing on Abhidhamma or any writing I do. He is free to think that I act contrary to the Dhamma. A. Sujin does not care what others think or whether people agree with her or not. She does quite the contrary from what you say. Your accusation is unwarranted. She is helping people to take personal responsibility, to realize their own cittas. The main thing she stresses: is there any understanding at this moment. Jhana can only be developed with understanding and mindfulness of the present moment: of citta now. Otherwise people will do this with attachment and delusion, and then there will not be any result, people will harm themselves. Read in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (Rob K's web or Zolag) what she writes about Samatha. Above all understanding is stressed. When people accuse someone else who has great sila, then the wrong committed is more grave than in the case of someone with weak sila. I have known A. Sujin for thirtyeight years, and I never noticed a lie, a white lie or a half truth. This tells us something about her sila. Be careful, you may not know the person you accuse, you may not realize what you are doing, but you may harm yourself greatly. This is the main issue. As to suttas, here on this list you hear different interpretations, and that is fine. You quote a sutta. I can add that also Visakha in the Buddha's time, a housewife with many children and grandchildren, could attain jhana, and other householders. But now my opinion: read carefully. In your quote Sariputta said: > How well spoken > was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble > disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that > occasion these five things come to him: ...... N: The noble or ariyan disciple. Who is he? He is a person who has attained enlightenment. His understanding and mindfulness have become powers (balas). They can arise at any time in daily life, under any circumstances. They perfectly understand their own cittas, they know the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta at the present moment, no mistake. Thus, they could also develop jhana, and jhana is a high degree of kusala. Now at this time, how many enlightened people do we meet? Note, when I write about jhana, I will always add, . I realize that in past lives people may have accumulated those skills, but, right understanding is indispensable. Note what Bhante Samahita wrote: N:I think this is all I have to say. When you maintain your unwarranted accusation of A. Sujin pandering, and also as you often imply, her followers (this is a wrong term) pandering, I do not see anything constructive in continuing exchange of views with you. You will add, that personally you have nothing against them, or against me, but this does not change the matter. Nina. 30807 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings, Mike. Hi Sukin and Christine, I join you in welcoming Mike back!!! op 01-03-2004 05:54 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...:> > Yes, yes! It was pleasant to see your name in the message index, > like a cool breeze on a hot day. Please do post more frequently, > though I know that you may not have much spare time. ;-) N: I was just thinking, I miss Mike, and there he was. In Thailand I had a great time, exchanging views with my friends about citta in daily life, under different circumstances. I felt very free and much at ease in doing this, also laughing and joking. I miss that now. But Mike is like one of those friends, I cannot quite explain why. Maybe former lives? I always feel that way when I have even a short correspondance with him. I miss his short Emails, Nina. 30808 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi James, Just a brief note here- --- buddhatrue wrote: >The reason I made that statement about not calling her `Ajahn' > because, from my experience with Thai temples, only the highest and > most learned of monks are called `Ajahn'. .... I believe in Thailand that ‘Ajahn’ means ‘teacher’. When Jon taught in a uni, he and all his colleagues were called ‘Ajahn’ by each other and the students. One of his former colleagues comes to the dhamma discussions and still calls him ‘Ajahn Jonothan’;-). It’s very common. In Chinese we also have a word that is used for ‘teacher’. There’s one Chinese restaurant where we used to go and the staff would always welcome me with this title. When I have my Tai chi class, I use another term for the teacher translated as ‘master’. From the old days, most foreigners have addressed K. Sujin simply with ‘Khun’, which is used for almost everyone. However, the Thais have generally always used ‘Ajahn’ or ‘Tan Ajahn’ (even more respectful) and if I’m with them, I usually use this, not because K.Sujin minds at all, but some Thais would find ‘Khun’ too casual (a bit like you referring to me as Mrs A in front of the starkids;-)). ... > Ps. BTW, why doesn't K. Sujin participate in this group? .... It would be nice, but she never writes. In 30 years, I think I’ve received 2 or 3 cards, that’s all. That’s why we have to join her if we wish to hear her;-) Any books of hers are transcribed from talks. You could ask Sukin to ask her any question, but it’s not the same, I know. Also they’re experimenting with recording discussions on the internet. As you remind us well, there’s only any refuge in the Triple Gem. Still, I feel I can never repay her kindness and guidance to me over all these years. I hope you can join us one day (how about during Azita’s visit?). Everyone would be very glad to meet you, James. You’d fit in well. Metta, Sarah ====== 30809 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:04am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > As one who has been spending a lot of time in the Useful Posts > these days, I can vouch for a high percentage of the posts being > Rob's. As a result, after Nina, Rob has become my principle teacher > these days. So I'll add a voice in the selfish-loss column and hope > he sticks around. -------------- Dear Philip, Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it the way life seems to work sometimes:) If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. ----------- > I was wondering about the history of this group. I guess in the pre- > internet days, you corresponded through newsletters, and while there > were therefore fewer exchanges, there was also less discord. And more > time to reflect on what one read. ============== I am a newbie compared to sarah and Jon, I met them at Khun sujins house in 1991 and they had already known her for 15 years or so. I used to get to bangkok as often as possible to meet with Khun Sujin and would travel around with her and her sister and Khun Duang Duen. I would ask questions and let the Dhamma seep in. I could write a book about it. And when I was not in Thailand I would send long letters to Nina asking questions about Dhamma. I had all the Tipitaka in English and would ask about various suttas. Two weeks later I would get her reply in the mail and it was always the highlight of the week for me. So precise and considered. I still have all the letters, over 100. The longest one was 16 pages all handwritten. Neither of us have attractive lettering -(sorry Nina:)) but the content was like nectar to me. I would drive to the forest and walk and sit and contemplate what Nina had said. Or close to my house was a large cemetery , 300 acres, and I would find a nice spot there and try to understand the deep meaning of what Nina said about the 'present moment'. What was seeing and color. Many times we discussed the Samyutta Nikaya, salayatanasutta, 'Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye....one is incapable of destroying suffering' .. Halcyon times Philip. ============= > P.S I wish I could hear one of your talks, Rob. But if I recall you > live in Kyushu - too far. But hopefully one day... > > ========= I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's meet. I have a Japanese friend there who came to Thailand with me 6 years ago, he knows Nina and Khun Sujin and loves to hear about Dhamma. We can have a little discussion. Robertk 30810 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: 4)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Hi RobertK, > (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and > the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills > in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or > vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva > within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. What happens if he/she didn't die while practising samatha or vipassana, or did not attain rebirth as a human or deva? Wait for the next Buddha? What are the chances? Regards, Swee Boon 30811 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, I gather you agree that pleasure is a necessary condition for the continuation of a human life, devoid of pleasure a human being would wither away. And I don't see anyone else in disagreement with that. Now, as you say, sensual pleasure is a big no-no. If that is the case, and the pleasure derived from jhanas is OK, then why not pursue what is OK and abandon what is no-no? What are you waiting for, and for that matter, what is everybody else on this list waiting for? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael Depends on what kind of pleasure. Sensual pleasure is a big no-no. Equamnity or pleasure attined during different stags of Buddhism jhanas ;-) is ok but still have to be careful not to cling to it if one is still not an Arahant. Ken O 30812 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael That is no need to mention my stand of sensual pleasure You are asking what am I waiting for, below is my reason Buddhist jhanas is something not obtain by just sitting on one corner and concentration on one object. If it is that easy, many Brahims at that time will have been enlighted. Its first condition is withdrawn from sensual pleasure. In order to withdraw from sensual pleasure one must have insight. Concentration will not bring insight because insight is only attain by seeing every senses with the three characteristics. furthermore, there is no such thing as making a purposed effort, we cannot attain a not-self with a perception that a self could perceive it - it is an unwise view. It is only through insight then meditations (certain conditions mentioned in Visud) to reach jhanas is beneficial. I dont discourage meditation but I encourage pple to know that is required for starting meditation before embarking this journey. Or else mediation is just relaxing the mind that all due to its calming effect. Ken O 30813 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: 4)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and > > the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills > > in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or > > vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva > > within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. > > > What happens if he/she didn't die while practising samatha or > vipassana, or did not attain rebirth as a human or deva? > > Wait for the next Buddha? What are the chances? ========== Dear Swee Boon, I think we should understand the sayadaws intent. He wants to encourage the listener to develop what is most helpful: samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. They can become habitual. We can learn to contemplate death (maranasati) in various ways and so we are always ready to die. And learning how to investigate what appears at the six doors, if it becomes a habit, a very powerful kamma and that will bring its result even in this life. The sallekha sutta I quoted earlier. I use the translation Larry likes: "But herein, Cunda, effacement should be practiced by you:[16] others will be harmful; we shall not be harmful here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will kill living beings; we shall abstain from killing living beings here -- thus effacement can be done. Others win speak maliciously; we shall abstain from malicious speech here -- thus effacement can be done. \ Others will speak harshly; we shall abstain from harsh speech here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will gossip; we shall abstain from gossip here -- thus effacement can be done. \ Others will have wrong views; we shall have right view here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will have wrong concentration; we shall have right concentration here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will have wrong knowledge; we shall have right knowledge here -- thus effacement can be done. \ Others will have wrong deliverance; we shall have right deliverance here -- thus effacement can be done. . Others will be doubting; we shall be free from doubt here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will be angry; we shall not be angry here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will be hostile; we shall not be hostile here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will have bad friends; we shall have noble friends here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will be faithless; we shall be faithful here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[18] we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease -- thus effacement can be done. """ These effacements (I listed only a few of them) can be done right where we are when the time arises. Now the Dhamma is declining as the Buddha said it must: but these are still glorious years. There is seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, feeling, changing all the time and they appear like a gift to the one who knows that they are anatta. Life is wide open for all types of kusala and so we strive happily, not wishing for a result, but living in the moment. We can't cross the river of defilements by directly opposing them, but we swim with energy and insight, gently angling across. Still halcyon days. RobertK 30814 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, Yeah. I can see how difficult it is. Better not bother about it and stick with the pleasure of the senses. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael That is no need to mention my stand of sensual pleasure You are asking what am I waiting for, below is my reason Buddhist jhanas is something not obtain by just sitting on one corner and concentration on one object. If it is that easy, many Brahims at that time will have been enlighted. Its first condition is withdrawn from sensual pleasure. In order to withdraw from sensual pleasure one must have insight. Concentration will not bring insight because insight is only attain by seeing every senses with the three characteristics. furthermore, there is no such thing as making a purposed effort, we cannot attain a not-self with a perception that a self could perceive it - it is an unwise view. It is only through insight then meditations (certain conditions mentioned in Visud) to reach jhanas is beneficial. I dont discourage meditation but I encourage pple to know that is required for starting meditation before embarking this journey. Or else mediation is just relaxing the mind that all due to its calming effect. Ken O 30815 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Swee Boon This is a good area to look into. As might be expected, the Visuddhi-Magga has something to say on the matter. Here is a list of the 5 benefits given at Ch XI, 120. They are described briefly there and then discussed and explained over the next 60 or so pages. They are-- [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with cankers destroyed) [2] proximate cause for insight [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge [4] condition for birth in Brahma world [5] cessation (for noble ones) Thus, 2 benefits for the arahant, 3 for the trainer or ordinary person. If you don't have access to a copy of the Visuddhi-Magga I'd be happy to post some more detail from it. Jon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, > > Below I list some of the benefits of jhanas that I know of. > If there is anything to add, please do so. > > 1. As a means of acquiring Right Concentration. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > 2. To obtain a pleasant abiding in the here and now. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > 3. As the foundation for the acquiring of the 5 mundane abhinnas. > > 4. As the basis for the contemplation of insight leading to the > destruction of the effluents, the only supramundane abhinna. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html > > 5. To attain to the highest meditative state of the cessation of > perception & feeling, achievable only by arahats and anagamis > who are proficient in all the eight rupa and arupa jhanas. > This is also known as the eighth > emancipation/deliverance/release, > which was demonstrated by the Buddha just before his > parinibbana. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html > > Regards, > Swee Boon > 30816 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Rob. Thank you for all your helpful posts. You are a very good and lucid teacher. I'll continue to learn from you in your absence, which I trust will be temporary. And please let me know if you're coming to Kanto. We live in Chigasaki - not so far from Kamakura. I'm sure you have accomodations available in Tokyo, but we have a fairly spacious place here, so please feel free to stay with us if not. A sincere gassho to you. With Metta, Philip P.S I thought I posted another message similar to this, but I must have slipped up. If it shows up, sorry for the duplication. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > As one who has been spending a lot of time in the Useful Posts > > these days, I can vouch for a high percentage of the posts being > > Rob's. As a result, after Nina, Rob has become my principle > teacher > > these days. So I'll add a voice in the selfish-loss column and > hope > > he sticks around. > -------------- > Dear Philip, > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it > the way life seems to work sometimes:) > If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just > ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. > ----------- > > I was wondering about the history of this group. I guess in the > pre- > > internet days, you corresponded through newsletters, and while > there > > were therefore fewer exchanges, there was also less discord. And > more > > time to reflect on what one read. > ============== > I am a newbie compared to sarah and Jon, I met them at Khun sujins > house in 1991 and they had already known her for 15 years or so. > I used to get to bangkok as often as possible to meet with Khun > Sujin and would travel around with her and her sister and Khun Duang > Duen. I would ask questions and let the Dhamma seep in. I could > write a book about it. > And when I was not in Thailand I would send long letters to Nina > asking questions about Dhamma. I had all the Tipitaka in English > and would ask about various suttas. Two weeks later I would get her > reply in the mail and it was always the highlight of the week for > me. So precise and considered. I still have all the letters, over > 100. The longest one was 16 pages all handwritten. Neither of us > have attractive lettering -(sorry Nina:)) but the content was like > nectar to me. I would drive to the forest and walk and sit and > contemplate what Nina had said. Or close to my house was a large > cemetery , 300 acres, and I would find a nice spot there and try to > understand the deep meaning of what Nina said about the 'present > moment'. What was seeing and color. Many times we discussed the > Samyutta Nikaya, salayatanasutta, 'Bhikkhus without directly > knowing and fully understanding the eye....one is incapable of > destroying suffering' .. > Halcyon times Philip. > > ============= > > > P.S I wish I could hear one of your talks, Rob. But if I recall > you > > live in Kyushu - too far. But hopefully one day... > > > > ========= > I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's meet. > I have a Japanese friend there who came to Thailand with me 6 years > ago, he knows Nina and Khun Sujin and loves to hear about Dhamma. We > can have a little discussion. > Robertk 30817 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 7:39am Subject: Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Nina, The definition you have of ‘pandering’ is not a very good definition. It leaves out a lot of the nuances of the word. A better definition is: “To cater to the lower tastes and desires of others.” It doesn’t really mean “help and encourage a person in evil passions or designs.” There is a pretty big gap between those two definitions. I meant pandering as in ‘telling people what they want to hear’ not ‘encouraging people to do evil things.’ I hope that this will clear up the issue for you. You know, I really shouldn’t continue to talk about A. Sujin when she isn’t here to speak for herself. It is becoming a case of ‘he said, she said’. I only bring her up because you bring her up so often, but let us stop. I think it bothers you. Let us deal solely with this issue of jhana. Let’s stick to the dhamma. That is why I am in this group. Is jhana as difficult as you claim it is? Is it impossible for only but certain householders? Well, according to the sutta I gave you it is not. Here we have the Buddha addressing 500 householders of various backgrounds and accumulations. He tells them all, not singling out any group of them, that they all shouldn’t be happy with just giving alms, they should also try to attain the beginning states of jhana from time to time. Sariputta responds to this teaching that it is a great idea and describes the wonderful benefits it gives the monks who do it. The Buddha hears this description from Sariputta and repeats it again for all of the householders so that they will know why it is a good thing to be doing. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. No special accumulations, prior knowledge, or anything really is needed other than the time to do it, knowing why it is important to do it, and to do it. And, in this case, noble disciple cannot mean one who is an arahant. It simply wouldn’t make any sense for the Buddha to be encouraging 500 different householders to do something that only arahants are capable of doing? Would it? You write that ‘ariyan disciples’ are also enlightened. It seems to me that ‘ariyan’ is close to ‘arahant’ and therefore means enlightened monks, while ‘noble’ doesn’t necessarily mean that. Unfortunately, we are getting to a level of Buddhist scholarship here that I am really not interested in; I just use my common sense. Again, it wouldn’t make sense for the Buddha to tell householders to do something that only the enlightened could do. I know that you are not going to agree with me, no matter what, so let’s just drop it. I have nothing further to say about this issue. Take care. Metta, James 30818 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 7:39am Subject: Kalaka Sutta Hi Group, I would like commentaries on this sutta. Can someone provide it, please? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. "Whatever is seen or heard or sensed and fastened onto as true by others, One who is Such -- among the self-fettered -- wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. "Having seen well in advance that arrow where generations are fastened & hung -- 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' -- there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened." Regards, Swee Boon 30819 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Hi, Robert (and Michael) - In a message dated 3/1/04 2:25:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > >>RobertK: > >> > >>Now the only path > >> > >>available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > >> > >>nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is > not > >at > >> > >>all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > >jhanas. > >> > >>Michael: > >> > >>I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > >the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain > what > >you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > >the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on > what > >the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > > > ==================================================================== > Dear Michael, > This is a repeat of an old post I made about the way of vipassana > and the way of samatha. > =============================== Thank you for repeating this worthwhile old post. It occurs to me that there is a matter that might relate to the content of it, somewhat obliquely, of course. There may well be two sorts of (truly absorptive) jhanas, one being the sort predating the Buddha, in which most investigative faculties are dulled to the point of nonexistence, and a second in which investigation of dhammas is yet possible. In the Anupada Sutta, detailing Sariputta's use of jhanas (all of them) in attaining final release, it is said that in every one of the basic eight jhanas except the last, in addition to the conditions that characterize the jhana, there are also available all of the following: > ... contact, feelings, perceptions, intentions, interest, resolution, > effort, equanimity and attention Tangentially related to this is the claim made by Ven Sheng-Yen, the Ch'an master, that the "absorptive states of Mahayana", in contradistinction from those of "hinayana", are such that "normal" abilities are available to the practitioner while in them. Now, despite the pro-Mahayana propaganda involved in this, there may be something significant that is genuinely being pointed to here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30820 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/1/04 5:15:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Also, Howard, eat congee and avoid orange juice, too > much vitC and acidic forming foods for kidney stones!! > ======================= Thanks for the tip. My stones, however, are calcium oxylate stones, not uric acid stones. Also, no orange juice for me - I'm staying away from carbs! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30821 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear Howard I'm staying away from > carbs! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Me too :-))))))))))))))))) (But it's for a good and noble cause!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30822 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: "To sleep, perchance to dream." Dear Sarah: It is an interesting and unique experience - the sudden awakening due to sati: something like the constricted Prajna-Paramita state of Mindfullness, as seen at Mahayana Prajna-Paramita Hrdaya Sutra ( sorry,but I don't know enough theravada suttas to quote something more near to our actual context...) "as soon as there is hearing or experiencing throught > the body-sense, no matter how `fuzzy' the experience, sati can arise and > perform it's guarding duty. As Nina said, also in the arupa plane, there's > no chance to become enlightened because rupas cannot be known without any > experience of them through the sense doors." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon quoted from the Vism1: > > "He enters upon the way of its restraint': [the meaning is] he enters upon > the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. > It is the same one of whom it is said `he guards the eye faculty, > undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'." --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the more obscure quote out of Vism I ever read. I oughted to lay down over the text, reading and reading it attentively 'till it begins to make sense for me... it's something like Citta were a concrete and continuous being or mind-flux states, in which there is no possible holes and vacuum: the raise of unvirtuousness, forgetfullness, etc, at the very moment of impulsion takes aside the eye-faculty restraint and simultaneously, like the old photo- revelation by chemical means, makes surge the non-restraint of eye- faculty as the silver nitrate compound on paper! Very interesting! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Herein..when a visible datum as object comes into the eye focus,....there > is non-restraint if unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or > impatience or idleness arises at the moment of impulsion. When this > happens, it is called non-restraint of the eye faculty." > ..... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sweet dreams are made of this... Mettaya, Ícaro 30823 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:17am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /zPATTHANA2.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : Paramattha Dhamma for Patthana by Htoo You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA2.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30824 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:19am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /zPATTHANA3.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : Citta to understand Patthana by Htoo You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA3.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30825 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:20am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /zPATTHANA4.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : More on Citta to understand Patthana You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA4.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30826 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup dear Htoo: A very clever text! You produced a very good definition of Rupa and Nama, Citta and Cetasika. Thinking about Quantum Mechanics, we get for an eletron his wave function, that describes all affairs of this particle...and we take it as the eletron itself. So, before any experience, any measurement, The eletron IS his wave function,that is his Rupa... But when we take measures, observations, etc, we interfere down with this wave function. This eletron's "Rupa" colapses and this particle assumes his corpuscular appearence... as a matter fo fact, a certain probability density is assigned to this measured event and Presto! a definite Nama arises for a definite Rupa, Citta and cetasika begin their interplay. Mettaya, Ícaro 30827 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear M.Icaro, Thanks for your kind comment.I am doing my best. If there is anything wrong or confusing or not very clear, we can discuss on this forum so that the matter becomes clear. Thanks again for your kind support. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > dear Htoo: > > A very clever text! > You produced a very good definition of Rupa and Nama, Citta and > Cetasika. Thinking about Quantum Mechanics, 30828 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind message on the matter. I have to allot time so I do not have time to debate. Thanks for everything that you share me as always. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I understand your dismay at seeing widely dispersed messages (Dhamma > Spam?) Any discussion merely keeps them in the > public eye for longer. So, perhaps, post your reply but do not > continue to debate? > > Enjoying, as always, any posts you care to make. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30829 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) >Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. .... S: ??? Please explain. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When you start to understand paramattha dhamma that understanding run on words of pannatta. We are using pannatta. First we use 'Sadda Pannatta' or its equivalent but this again is understood through 'Attha Pannatta '. So paramattha is through pannatta. So does Anatta even though it is origionally Anatta when we are born we were introduced with Atta. ' Hey smile, this is your Mom, this is your Dad. ' Then Atta encroached and firmly ramified since then. With wisdom the origional Anatta has been back. So I said Anatta is through Atta. But actually there is no Atta. All are Anatta. I hope you got it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Fully agreed (but as others would say, you need to know where you live when you book your ticket to Bkk;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate Sotapatti Magga Citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: The understanding of anatta has to begin with theoretical right understanding of anatta and the tools and map have to be laid out accordingly. If they ar laid out with an idea of atta, along the route more understanding of atta rather than anatta will be developed. No point in taking the journey in this case as I see it. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you want theoretical knowledge of Anatta and you want to throw away Atta. OK, I agree as there is no Atta, then it is not a problem. Let's bring Anatta view before we begin the journey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Are you showing up that you have arrived at the milestone called Bhanga Nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: LOL, as you remind us, no Htoo or Sarah to arrive anywhere;-) Again,we'd better be sure we start with the right tools and the right map. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you ready with all equipment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: ???? I've read every message on DSG and to my knowledge you're the first to suggest this;-) Perhaps you mixed me up with someone else??? Recently, the only threads with any mention of Mahayana teachings have been ones that were comparing the use of terms such as sabhava and paramattha which can be difficult for those familiar with Nagarjuna or Mahayana to appreciate. It would be unkind of me to ask you to look for a post where I switched sides because I know you won't find one (but you're welcome to try;-)). We're relaxed about occasional lines and references to other schools but not with big slabs of quoted material from them. You can contact us off-list anytime you think we've gone too soft;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not a problem if it is not. But when I have time and find the message, I will reply that post to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > There is no country and there is no continent but just vanna, sadda, gandha, rasa, pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo etc etc. > .... S: Excellent! > .... > When is your next DSG > > meeting? How long will it be? How many will be attending? What are > > the activities at the meeting? How much is a day stay at hotels there > > where the meeting will be? I will be looking forward to hearing from > > you, Sarah. .... S: I could also answer with paramattha dhammas as you do to my personal ones;-) Every Saturday there is an English discussion with A.Sujin, Sukin and other friends (small group). Azita will be there in the middle of April just after Easter (dates?). I don't know if she will persuade others to join. We weren't planning to go away, but we could be persuaded to go (if you or others wished to join)for the first of her two weekends as I noticed I have an Easter holiday then. It's just informal discussion like here, but face to face. Everyone makes their own accomodation arrangements according to budget and so on. Best to be close to the Foundation. Please contact Sukin, Betty or me off- list for any other details. Everyone would be delighted to have you join and you'd be taken good care of. Ken O lives quite close, so I know he'd consider joining again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May be at some time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > May you really see Anatta. .... S:Thanks. Remember, no 'Sarah' or 'Htoo' to see;-) Metta, Sarah ===== With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > > 30830 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Dear Robert k, What, are you leaving dsg? I thought you would stay on, I am really sad about that. But I know you will have a busy time just now! I hope you come back soon. I did not know I had written about 100 letters? Nice story you went to the cemetery or woods, I did not know. Can you not find some way to stay on, maybe skipping some mails so that the amount of reading is reduced? Nina. op 01-03-2004 14:04 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it > the way life seems to work sometimes:) 30831 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi James, This definition is better, but still not a very good thing. You as English teacher would know the correct meaning. Visit her yourself and you can see whether she caters to the lower tastes of others, that is all. This subject did not annoy *me*, I was only thinking of the danger of wrong speech. I do not feel bad, James. I am not annoyed with you at all. We just disagree. One more thing, It *seemed* to me you implied time and again that the Abhidhamma is against the Buddha's teaching, and that the work I do in writing about the abhidhamma is acting against the Buddha's teaching. It seems that whever you have a chance you say something along these lines. Again, I don't mind this, but like to know. What exactly in my ADL book put you off? What exactly in the Abhidhamma you find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? What exactly in Buddhaghosa you find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? I do not mind, of course there are different opinions on this list. But instead of general statements I like concrete examples. I cannot promise to answer soon points related to the above you may bring up, I have to work hard these days on other things. See below. op 01-03-2004 16:39 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > The definition you have of ?pandering? is not a very good > definition. It leaves out a lot of the nuances of the word. A > better definition is: ?To cater to the lower tastes and desires of > others.? It doesn?t really mean ?help and encourage a person in evil > passions or designs.? There is a pretty big gap between those two > definitions. I meant pandering as in ?telling people what they want > to hear? not ?encouraging people to do evil things.? I hope that > this will clear up the issue for you. > J: Is jhana as difficult as you claim it is? (snip)The Buddha hears this description from Sariputta > and repeats it again for all of the householders so that they will > know why it is a good thing to be doing. It seems pretty cut and dry > to me. No special accumulations, prior knowledge, or anything really > is needed other than the time to do it, knowing why it is important > to do it, and to do it. > And, in this case, noble disciple cannot mean one who is an arahant. > It simply wouldn?t make any sense for the Buddha to be encouraging > 500 different householders to do something that only arahants are > capable of doing? N: Noble disciple: it can be a sotapanna, and there were very many in the Buddha's time, also householders. Arahat is only the fourth stage of enlightenment. Ariyan disciple: who has listened a lot, and also applied what he heard. It begins with drawing near and listening. I do not agree that you say: just do it. right understanding is necessary, as I tried to explain. The Buddha's time was different, people could hear the dhamma directly from the Buddha. They had no misunderstandings. But, OK I leave it. Nina. 30832 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:43am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Hello Rob > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it > the way life seems to work sometimes:) > If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. I will indeed be turning to Nina, and everyone else in the group. But with the wealth in the Useful Posts, I'll continue learning from you for months and more likely years to come. I enjoyed reading about those "Halycon days." >> I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's meet. I am quite confident that you don't make the kind of empty offers many people do, as in "asobi ni kite kudasai" when they don't really mean it. So I am already looking forward to meeting you. I'm sure you've been to Kamakura, but if not, and if they interest you, let's do the temples and go for karaoke. OK, forget the karaoke. And the temples. That park in front of my station is a nice place to sit and chat. Please contact me offline if you're heading this way. I hope things will work out in a way that you stay with us. Metta, Philip 30833 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear Htoo: I never read entirely Nina`s books on Abhidhamma reflexions on daily life, but your remarks about the many Citta planes, and their examples on everyday affairs are direct and understandable: Such Pathanna classifications was one of my first readings on Abhidhamma, at scattered notes I've picked up on many FTP personal files on NET. Your interpretation of such abstract ideas in all the crude reality - from Lokuttara Cittas to the low realms of crime and social atriction, is really paramount and I believe very near to the original purpose of such imbricated classifications! Keep Boostin' ! Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------------------------- > File : /zPATTHANA3.doc > Uploaded by : htootintnaing > Description : Citta to understand Patthana by Htoo > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA3.doc > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > htootintnaing 30834 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:30pm Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Group, Regarding Being Unfettered, this excerpt may also be of interest: "Stages of eradication of the Ten Fetters: "The Four Stages of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahat Before entering the path a person is referred to as a worldling. The pilgrim on the path is referred to as an ariya or noble one. There are four stages on the path followed by an ariya becoming an arahat and realizing Nibbana. In these stages the Ten Fetters or Characteristics are eradicated. The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now he will be reborn seven times at the most. The second stage is that of the sakadagami (once returner) to the human world. He develops 4) detachment from sense desires and 5) freedom from ill will. Should he not attain arahatship in this birth he will be born only once more in the human world. The third stage is that of anagami (never returner). Now he completely irradicates the first five fetters and progresses to overcome the next five fetters. These are: 6) attachment to form realms, 7) attachment to formless realms, 8) pride, 9) restlessness and 10) ignorance. It is understood that the anagami, on passing away, is reborn in the heavenly (pure) abodes (suddhavasa). At the fourth stage, of arahat, all these fetters or characteristics are completely transcended and eliminated. In the first three stages the ariya is referred to as a sekha because he has to undergo more training. An arahat is called an a asekha, as he does not have to undergo further training. The arahat has now attained Enlightenment and Nibbana. He is not wholly free from dissatisfaction or suffering because the kammic forces, which produced his birth, are not fully spent. He will not, however, accumulate any new kamma and will not be reborn. Until he passes away he lives in a peaceful and happy state, teaching others by example and Dhamma talks." http://www.thebuddhistsociety.org.uk/Arahats.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30835 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Christine and all, Christine: The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now he will be reborn seven times at the most. Michael Always good to remember the stages of enlightenment. In my mind anyone who takes the Buddhist path seriously should aim at least to the level of sotapanna in this very life. That is the only guarantee of continuing following the path in future lives and not falling back into lower planes of rebirth. Looking at the three fetters that have to be eradicated to reach sotapanna I was always puzzled by the adherence to rites and rituals. I suspect very few people would think that they have any kind of belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals, this sounds like some sort of ancient custom which does not apply today, and therefore the eradication of this fetter could be taken as a done deal. But is that really so? Can anyone see in our modern beliefs some sort of adherence that would fall into this category as intended by the Buddha? I have some ideas about that but let's see if others have something to say. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 4:30 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Group, Regarding Being Unfettered, this excerpt may also be of interest: "Stages of eradication of the Ten Fetters: "The Four Stages of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahat Before entering the path a person is referred to as a worldling. The pilgrim on the path is referred to as an ariya or noble one. There are four stages on the path followed by an ariya becoming an arahat and realizing Nibbana. In these stages the Ten Fetters or Characteristics are eradicated. The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now he will be reborn seven times at the most. The second stage is that of the sakadagami (once returner) to the human world. He develops 4) detachment from sense desires and 5) freedom from ill will. Should he not attain arahatship in this birth he will be born only once more in the human world. The third stage is that of anagami (never returner). Now he completely irradicates the first five fetters and progresses to overcome the next five fetters. These are: 6) attachment to form realms, 7) attachment to formless realms, 8) pride, 9) restlessness and 10) ignorance. It is understood that the anagami, on passing away, is reborn in the heavenly (pure) abodes (suddhavasa). At the fourth stage, of arahat, all these fetters or characteristics are completely transcended and eliminated. In the first three stages the ariya is referred to as a sekha because he has to undergo more training. An arahat is called an a asekha, as he does not have to undergo further training. The arahat has now attained Enlightenment and Nibbana. He is not wholly free from dissatisfaction or suffering because the kammic forces, which produced his birth, are not fully spent. He will not, however, accumulate any new kamma and will not be reborn. Until he passes away he lives in a peaceful and happy state, teaching others by example and Dhamma talks." http://www.thebuddhistsociety.org.uk/Arahats.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30836 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello all. As I suspected, the greeting I had sent to Rob did finally show up. Sorry for the redunndacy. I resisted commenting on the "Common Misconceptions" post when I first saw it, and should resist now. Can I. No, I guess not. Oh, I guess I am learning something. I wrote some comments, and then erased them. I would just say that I wish people would not send spam about things that they believe are deeply important. But we know that making wishes about others' behaviour is absurd. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hello Rob > > > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't > it > > the way life seems to work sometimes:) > > If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just > ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. > > I will indeed be turning to Nina, and everyone else in the group. > But with the wealth in the Useful Posts, I'll continue learning from > you for months and more likely years to come. > > I enjoyed reading about those "Halycon days." > > >> I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's > meet. > > I am quite confident that you don't make the kind of empty offers > many people do, as in "asobi ni kite kudasai" when they don't really > mean it. So I am already looking forward to meeting you. I'm sure > you've been to Kamakura, but if not, and if they interest you, let's > do the temples and go for karaoke. OK, forget the karaoke. And the > temples. > That park in front of my station is a nice place to sit and chat. > Please contact me offline if you're heading this way. > > I hope things will work out in a way that you stay with us. > > Metta, > Philip 30837 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:33pm Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Typo from Lokuttara Cittas to the low realms of crime and social > atriction, --------------------------------------------------------------------- "...of crime and social friction" (well... wrong deeds don´t pay bills) Mettaya, Ícaro 30838 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/1/2004 9:36:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > As might be expected, the > Visuddhi-Magga has something to say on the matter. Here is a list of > the 5 benefits given at Ch XI, 120. They are described briefly there > and then discussed and explained over the next 60 or so pages. They > are-- > > [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with > cankers > destroyed) > [2] proximate cause for insight > [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge > [4] condition for birth in Brahma world > [5] cessation (for noble ones) ============================ I find (1) and (2) of particualr interest. I find (1) interesting for two reasons: Buddhaghosa points it out as a blissful abiding here and now" particularly for arahants. On the one hand, that makes a lot of sense: they've done what is needed to be done, so for them it is just a "vacation spot"! On the other hand, being free of all aversion and clinging, why do they have need for such an abiding? I find (2) interesting, because it shows why jhanas are sometimes defined as right concentration, and why right concentration is an important aspect of the path (however one interprets 'path' ;-). With metta, Howard 30839 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalaka Sutta Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/1/2004 10:39:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Group, > > I would like commentaries on this sutta. Can someone provide it, > please? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html > > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object > as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe > an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. > > Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all > phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' > And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more > sublime. > > "Whatever is seen or heard or sensed > and fastened onto as true by others, > One who is Such -- among the self-fettered -- > wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. > > "Having seen well in advance that arrow > where generations are fastened & hung > -- 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' -- > there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened." > > > Regards, > Swee Boon ==================================== You might look at the following site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9552401356/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/002-5213187-3898460 It is for the book Magic of the Mind: An Exposition of the Kalakarama Sutta (by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda). I've owned it for a good while, and I think it's great! With metta, Howard 30840 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Hi again, James ~ J: I don't think I mentioned anything about Paceekabuddha's in my last e-mail but I don't really know the difference between those and Sammasambuddha's. C: I said something about only a Buddha eradicating vaasanaa (and thought I might have speld it wrong) and I wasn't sure if that applied to both types of Buddha, but don't think it does. I'm not sure whether my points ever relate well to anything anyone else says, but I was saying we're not in any position to judge an arahant's behaviour, mental or otherwise, however shocking it might seem; that it was one thing for Buddha to call us fools and another for me to even consider it. J: But, honestly, I am not sure if the Lord Buddha was 100% perfect in all ways. It seems to me that he still had a weak spot when it came to women. I was just reading AN123 "Don't Judge Others" where he is to be reported as saying: "Who, indeed is this female lay disciple Migasala, this foolish, inexperienced woman with a woman's wit? And who (in comparison) are those who have the knowledge of other persons' different qualities?' Woman's wit? As opposed to a man's wit? It doesn't seem that the Buddha was real big on gender equality. C: Honestly??? He was as perfect as it gets, as we all know. And when you say, later, that "he doesn't have to be god-like to me for me to find refuge in him" it sounds like god-like might be somehow better to you. Good grief, man! Be vewwy, vewwy kehwfuwl. Somehow, I don't imagine the woman who repeated the AN to a full court of other women took offense at Buddha's words. Or if she did, she considered that vewwy kewhfuwwy and still chose to repeat them with the utmost reverance. These women drilled holes in the walls just to watch this man walk down the street. They must have treasured every word he said and worshipped every little move he made. Most - actually I think all of them - are said to have paid him the highest honour by attaining some level of enlightenment. I don't know how it goes in Pali, but maybe you'd be happier with Sister Uppalawanna's translations. In the sutta with 6 kinds of people she has Buddha saying that "They that measure people do it lopsidedly. Either I should measure people or one like me should do it. Ananda, who is this foolish lay female disciple with low wisdom? What does she know about the human character and everything that comes into the range of the mental faculties?" In the one about 10 kinds, it's "Ananda, who is this foolish silly female lay disciple Migasala? With unripe wisdom what does she know about the range of the mental faculites of Great beings? .. [such as she] measure for their unpleasantness for a long time ... Therefore Ananda do not measure people, that measurement is lopsided. Either I should measure people or one like me should do it." My brackets. I'd say that whatever our gender, each of us has our own kamma and are, by virtue of that, less than equal. I wouldn't say gender equality is either an issue or a fact, but Buddha was pretty egalitarian in letting it be known that all wordlings are mad. I guess there might be 'better' or 'lesser' degrees or kinds of madness, depending on where they take us. But all things being equal, even the sotapanna is not on the same level as the other ariyans and so on up the line to the different types of Buddha. At least Migasala wasn't totally witless, but she wasn't declared to be the equal to Sariputta in wisdom, either - Sister Khema was. But am I, in my madness, taking advantage of whatever wit I might possess or simply outwitting myself as I plant my next orchard full of monkey treats? The real clever nit-wit is the one who pulls them out. A sexy little (pCharter font) quote from Nina's Survey: < The difference in sex as man and woman which generally occurs in humans and other living beings is due to two different kinds of rúpa, bhåva rúpas (bhåva meaning nature), which are the following: Itthibhåva rúpa, femininity, a rúpa which permeates the whole body, so that it is manifested in the outward appearance, manners, behaviour and deportment which are feminine. Purisabhåva rúpa, masculinity, a rúpa which permeates the whole body, so that it is manifested in the outward appearance, manners, behaviour and deportment which are masculine. Each individual with bhåva rúpa, the rúpa that is sex, has either the rúpa that is femininity or the rúpa that is masculinity. In some cases the bhåva rúpa is lacking. Moreover, those who live in the "Brahma world" (higher planes of existence where one is born as result of jhåna, absorption concentration) do not have conditions for bhåva rúpa. >end quote. Nina just talks about the outer manifestations here, but these rupas might mean there really is a basic difference in how we experience the All. If so, I wonder if a transgendered person would know and whether that rupa really changes in them. Just idle curiousity and conjecture but I, the conjuror, say probably not. But sure, why not a woman's wit (to slightly misquote you) "as contrasted with a man's"? Where opposition comes in to play is when there's any development of the three wisdoms that get us out of our witless situation. In context, the wisdom he's comparing hers to is his (or one like him) and I don't think either of their genders is relevant. She could just as easily have been a male and in any case, even Ananda wasn't qualified to measure or judge others. Here's a neat little thing I read the other day in the foreword of Radhika Abeysekera's "Practising the Dhamma with a View to Nibbana": < ...at the time of the Lord Buddha Puraana (Ancient) Dipankara (not to be confused with the Buddha Dipankara who gave the definite proclamation) the Bodhisatta Gotama was a female, and offered mustard oil lamps and made the aspiration to become a Buddha. And as a result of all the meritorious deeds performed 'she' became a Buddha. < Are there female Buddhas? Maybe not in this lifetime or this Buddha's era, but it's all depends on conditions and anything is possible. There's not another male one on the near horizon, either, but some level of attainment is still possible for either gender. Personally, I don't care whether the next one's a guy or a gal. If it was a universal law that there are only male Buddhas and you knew it for a fact, would that knowledge make you sexist, whether you shared it or not? If it was some kind of dhamma, I don't think any amount of popular opinion would change it. Being politically correct ain't necessarily and actually right or even important. Is it any different for Buddha to point out the extent of a woman's wisdom than a man's? I don't know if this implies any kind of inequality or not, but did the World Honoured One always (?) list our All sensors in that particular order: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body-sense? Here's an inequality I do think is important -- and whoever I lifted it from, thank you very much: < The commentary to the "Path of Discrimination", the "Saddhammappakasini", explains that the perversions of sanna, citta and ditthi have different strengths: "... The perversion of sanna is the weakest in strength of all three. The perversion of citta has more strength than the perversion of sanna. The perversion of ditthi has the greatest strength of all three." < peace, connie 30841 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:25am Subject: Sudden Certainty! Friends: The Arising of Sudden Certainty: When a calm & collected mind is firmly fixed on Transience, there gradually accumulates understanding of the real nature of the clusters of clinging. This complex of only mind-&-form, - mere mental & physical phenomena - ever arising & ceasing in a passing flux, is suddenly penetrated as both insubstantial and essentially impersonal ... This all new sensation of 'alien remoteness - foreign & artificial' of both internal & external elements, naturally induces a certain disgust & repulsiveness about this whole fleeting scenario ... Right there & then is noted: "Oohh really what emerges also ceases! How futile to search happiness in what can only be disappointing!!!" This flashing arising of Right View is irreversible & for the first time in this infinite cycle of existence, is attachment to the clusters of clinging momentarily eradicated ... The belief in a constant person, soul or self cannot be maintained... Egoism is thus cut at the very root & severely detrimental behaviour rooted in this egotism, can never again be done. Here the ways which lead to future bad states of misery & woe are forever left all behind! Knowledge associated with the path of Stream-Entry has been gained! When the last trace of sceptical doubt about the reality of the unique event of Buddha's Enlightenment is substituted by firm conviction & attachment to the opinion that mere rules & rituals can fulfil mental purification is relinquished, then the door to the deathless opens up ... Safe & assured is one of a maximum of 7 rounds before Awakening! Like coming home from a far, far sea journey by approaching the safe harbor at the other shore! Never again to return or die !!! Silent & serene bliss is the stilled peace ahead ... All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Click to subscribe to Buddha-Direct 30842 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah this sounds like a noble venture, however I am rather busy reading the suttas, reflecting upon what I read, meditating, and answering the needs of students. Perhaps since Htoo has not once left a reference for any of his claims, and you seem to have avoided requesting such support from him, and this subject seems to be your interest not mine, then either of you can certainly do the homework, because I have done 30 years of homework already. It seems you two have some catching up to do. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/29/04 9:56:05 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:35:25 +0800 (CST) From: Sarah Subject: Re: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > I agree with you Larry the translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and > Bhikkhu > Bodhi agree with respect to not revealing any disparagement of jhana, > and since > there is no other place in the Sutta Pitaka where the jhanas are > disparaged, we > then are forced to question Sister Upalavanna's translation. ..... I agree with you that the Buddha never disparaged the jhanas or indicated that they are anything but very highly developed wholesome states. Would you indicate the lines in the latter translation that disparage them , so we can look at them in the various translations more carefully. If you also give the same lines in the TB and BB translations (without any alterations please;-)), that would be even better. If necessary, we can look at the Pali too with some assistance. Metta, Sarah >> 30843 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:05pm Subject: From Triplegem Dear group, I forward some letters I wrote on triplegem. In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Dear U Oo Maung, Swan, Robert, and Khanti-Khema, > > Thank you very much for your kind explanations. > I have noted many important points. > > (1) A person with sakkaya-ditthi may attain sugati > bhumi by doing dana, sila and bhavana, but he could > never realize magga and phala. (Mogok Sayadaw of > Burma used to say that yogis were making wrong > priorities by trying to eliminate tanha before > ditthi. He emphasized that yogis must eradicate > ditthi first.) ========= Dear Han Tun, This is important! Ditthi is the dangerous dhamma that needs to be worked on more than anything. It is what Sujin Boriharnwanaket always says too. All defilements are in some way related to the aggregates if for nothing else than that they are sankhara khandha, but lobha and dosa can arise without ditthi. So the sotapanna does not have wrong view about the aggregates that they are controllable or lasting. Robert 30844 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:08pm Subject: from triplegem2 Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, " wrote: > Dear RobertK, 1. Your mind seems to dwell in the world of ultimate realities and, > at the same time, the real world of million concepts where you have > family and teach classes. Are there any conflicts? How long can you > go on like this? _________ Dear Tep, These are great questions. I think when there is a (belief in) 'self' then conflicts are inevitable. Then there is always 'me' trying to do or get something. A teacher once told me when she did 'vipassana' that she couldn't recognise her own husband - because that was a concept. This is not the way I see the practice. I used to have the idea: first get the mind nice and still and then ponder at leisure the changing patterns. However, this is caught up in a subtle idea that `mind' somehow exists. There is no Mind but there are only rapidly changing phenomena. It is changing so very, very fast. It is so natural that mental states are involved in concepts but in between there can be, sometimes, little flashes of insight that know the characteristic of paramattha dhamma (any of the khandhas such as seeing or sound or feeling, or hardness, or greed). Ronald Graham, a well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man who loved only numbers"). Of course panna (wisdom ) of vipassana is much faster than that as it is seeing dhammas not directly (not conceptualizing about them). Too, the thinking process has to be known, and it can't be known if one always turns away from it to tries to manufacture something else that one thinks is better or purer. If there are conflicts then this shows that one is trying to force, and not accepting the present moment as it is. The only way out is to insight such moments and see what is really present - Which one will see is some dhamma conditioned by tanha (desire) for a result. That tanha is part of dependent origination and no matter how much it feels like wholesome effort will actually hinder insight - unless it is seen as it is. Also I must confess that I err on the lazy side and take things pretty easy. ---------- > > 2. You mentioned, "I went back to Thailand in 1989 and stayed for > almost 4 months at a vipassana temple where the teacher was > knowledgeable on Abhidhamma and emphasized anatta." > > Have you found any major difference between the samatha-vipassana > methods as taught by monks in Thai temples and the insight- knowledge > development, using the paramattha-dhamma (ultimate realities) > concepts as taught by Sujin Boriharnwanaket? > > -------------------------------------- It depends very much on the temple I think. Most temples like to give some method that seems straighforward and then away people go and practice. However, as I said, the one I stayed at had a teacher who was good on Abhidhamma and really stressed anatta. (BTW I went to visit a few months ago, he is about 97 now and retired from teaching)so the differences between what he and Sujin said were subtle. . When I hear people ask A. Sujin "How do I practice?" her reply is very careful. In some ways it can't really be answered because such a question shows there is already a hidden idea of self who can do something. There are dhammas arising even while such questions are been asked and if there is enough understanding then sati can arise to be aware of the moment. It is always about this moment - according to A. Sujin. But that sort of answer doesn't satisfy tanha (desire) which always wants results now. Let's take a loook at what the Buddha said Majjhima nikaya 26, the Ariyapariyesana- sutta "This Dhamma which I have realised is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend..." Perhaps when we think we know, or think it is not so hard that is the time to be concerned. It may be mana or subtle attasanna (self) that is thinking like that. Robertk 30845 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:10pm Subject: from triplegem3 In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, > Dear RobertK, > > What practical method, step by step, do you need to follow in order > to catch those 'little flashes of insight' and to lengthen their > duration enough in order for 'wisdom and sati' to take control, such > that Tanha would not have a chance to arise? > > I have read a lot about 'bare attention', 'direct seeing without > thinking', 'experiencing ultimate realities without thinking and/or > conceptualizing'. But there is a big gap between the > concepts/lectures and the actual application. ___________ Dear Tep, When you are reading this reply now what is present? What realities? there is seeing and colour- can there be some direct study of these dhammas right now? There is also feeling - is it MY feeling or is there a little understanding that begins to understand it is just a conditioned phenomena with no owner. Or is there a little confusion about what was said? If so what is the actual nature of confusion? As well as explaining anatta and pointing to the present moment A. Sujin stresses on parami (perfections). She says they are the supports that assist wisdom do its job. For example if we are still stingy with regard to material things then how could we come to the stage of letting go of the idea of self completely. Oo Maung and Htoo were talking about the deva realm and how this human realm is a great place for developing dhamma and parami. In the Maha-samaya sutta of the Digha nikaya it says "Those who have gone to the Buddha for refuge Will not go to the plane of woe. On discarding the human body,They will fill the hosts of the devas."" Thus for many buddhist, like it or not, the next life may be in the deva world where some of the parami cannot be perfected (because no obstacles). And we should take this seriously. Whatever trials and tribulations come in life they should be warmly regarded as a great chance to develop patience (khanti) parami or whatever other parami is suitable. ------------------------------------------- > > BTW Have you known of any real person who's achieved Arahat-magga > this way? Is Ajaan Sujin 'close' to this ultimate goal, at least > from your perspective? ___________________ Actually I stopped wondering like this years ago, Tep, because I think it is always motivated by tanha. What we can know about a teacher - beyond speculation- is whether they point to the present moment in a way that helps us to begin to insight such moments. The rest is wishful thinking. The Anguttara nikaya commentary tells the story of one teacher, after the Buddhas time, who had many pupils all of whom attained arahatship. But he himself was still a wordling - not even a sotapanna. However, he understood the tipitaka very, very well; knew the letter and the meaning and so was a great teacher (Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali (the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of hindrances) 6th sutta; about the Thera Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera ). RobertK 30846 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:13pm Subject: from triplegem4 In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > > > "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound > > knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? > >.... he hears Dhamma; having heard Dhamma he remembers it; ... > As you said, Theory and Practice should go together to achieve > the Path. > ________ Dear Swee boon, Yes. The theory is the basis for correct practice and as practice deepens it reveals the depth of the theory. When we first study a sutta we may think we understand - a few years later we may see that our first reading misunderstood or only saw it in a limited way. Those that truly understood were highly respectful of the teachings; it is why the arahants were so careful to record the teachings and preserve them at the first and subsequent councils. My teachers have always emphasised that study and practice should go together. If we see them as different things we might see the Abhidhamma as something to think about, like chemistry, rather than descriptions of what is happening now, dhammas to be directly insighted. While we are reading a Dhamma book there is seeing and visible object, there is feeling, there is sanna, sankhara and many other realities as explained in the satipatthana sutta. They can be known there and then. Likewise when there are activities like urinating, talking, laughing, crying there are the same realities that we read about in the Dhamma. There to be 'studied'. Of course no rules that we have to do this or that, or see it this way or that way. Nina van Gorkom wrote recently: robertK 30847 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:16pm Subject: from triplegem 5 Dear Christine, """2. "there can be awareness of the characteristics" > What exactly are characteristic - I'm sure I've asked about this > before, but haven't retained the answer"""" ----------- I am sure everyone can add to this so I just give some introduction. Characteristic is the English translation of lakkhana. Ti lakkahana is the three general characteristics ie. anicca, dukkha and anatta of all realities except nibbana. But all realities also have visesa lakkhana - specific characteristics - and before the general charcateristics can be penetrated there must be the insight into the specific. So the first stage of insight is called namarupaparicheddanan - the delimiatation of mind and matter - and this insight clearly knows that mind and matter have very different characteristics. In the mulapariyaya sutta (see bodhi "root of existence") the Buddha explains that 'the uninstructed worldling perceives earth as earth......and he perceives the seen as the seen ..the heard as he heard...the sensed as the sensed..the cognised as the cognised..Having perceieved the cognised as the cognised he conceives himself as the cognised..in the cognised...apart from the cognised..the cognised is mine..What is the reason? Because it has not being fully understood." Just some quotes from the commentary and tika to this sutta: p39 "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas: This is said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with the specific natures deviod of such attributions as that of 'being' etc... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And although there is no disctinction between these dhammas and their characteristics the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas."endquote ____________ > 1. "knows how to develop wisdom" - How? Is it > initially by the study of texts, and then what? ____________ The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of dhammas, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc..This misconceving can be subtle "I see anatta" . But The enlightened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. The "uninstructed worldling" p40 of mulapariyaya "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates(khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'. end qoute. Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling' who is learning and developing correctly: p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"endquote Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to mulapariyaya p14 That "in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought temporarily together through a concatenation of conditions" enquote. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) speaks about the development of insight into characteristics: "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote It can't be stressed enough that this procedure is not limited to thinking about these matters but that it is by the direct insight into these dhammas as they arise in the present moment that is true insight. If this is properly done then gradually, over a very long time, wisdom will develop and result in enlightenment. As a hint when you are walking along the street is there any discernment that what appears at the eyedoor is only visible object - different colours. Is there some understanding of the difference between the moment of seeing and the forming up of concpets such as people, cars, trees that happens so quickly. For the wise one who is skilled in this matter an earthquake could happen or a bomb explode and they would see that there is only aversion(dosa) when there is the taking of concepts in the wrong way . But well before this stage there has to be countless repetitions of knowing the characteristics of the different realities that appear - and so the difference between reality and concept becomes clearer. Robert 30848 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Larry & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: >I was just reacting to this interminable discussion > on jhana which has been going on for years. I was getting tired of both > sides of the debate. .... I know how you feel -- this is probably my least favourite topic too;-) Really, when there is so little understanding of realities or the meaning of calm or of guarding the sense doors, I tend to wonder at the value of discussing nibbana or jhana, but everyone has their own topics of special interest;-). Funny too, how I can say this one moment and the next moment be reading the debates on apects of the jhanas with enthusiam in the Kathavatthu the next. I often find this with the teachings -- what is of no interest at one time can be fascinating at another;-) Topics discussed in the Kathavatthu. (If anyone would like a very brief summary, pls let me know): 1.Controverted Point: ‘That there is articulate utterance on the part of one who has entered into Jhana.’ 2. C.P.: ‘That in one who has attained Jhana through the earth-artifice, etc (kasinas), knowledge [of what is seen] is perverted.’ 3. C.P.:’That the attainment of cessation is unconditioned’ 4. C.P.’that in the Rupa-sphere (16 grades of devas, Brahma heavens being the lowest)the individual has all the six senses.’ 5.C.P. ‘That we pass from one Jhana to another (immediately.’ 6. C.P. ‘That there is an intermediate stage between the First and Second Stages (in 4fold classification).’ 7.C.P. ‘That one who has attained Jhana hears sound.’ ***** Yesterday when I was writing to Ken O, I quoted some brief commentary notes to MN2,Sabbasava Sutta. I’ve been especially considering the following one and on this thread the reference to attending to gratification in the jhanas: .... “MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; *when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhanas), the taint of being arises and increases*; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four “perversions” (of permanence, pleasure, self and beautiful etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases.” **** Again it’s the wise or unwise attention, the understanding of present realities as you stress, whatever the subject matter that counts. Larry, looking forward to reading the next installments from Vism in your and Nina’s good time. Metta, Sarah ======= 30849 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello Sarah this sounds like a noble venture, however I am rather busy > reading the suttas, reflecting upon what I read, meditating, and > answering the needs > of students. ... S: No problem, I just asked as I found your comments suggesting a ‘disparagement of jhana’ in the translation surprising. I hadn’t noticed it in any extract posted, but am happy to have it pointed out. .... >Perhaps since Htoo has not once left a reference for any > of his > claims, and you seem to have avoided requesting such support from him, > and > this subject seems to be your interest not mine, then either of you can > certainly do the homework, because I have done 30 years of homework > already. .... S:I think Htoo and I have been pretty busy with our homework too, though it may be different from yours;-) I seldom need to ask Htoo for any reference and vice versa, because we’ve read the same texts, including Abhidhamma (extensively in his case, but not in mine), and we soon clear up any misunderstandings. I’m sure if you ask him kindly and respectfully to give a reference to any parts you disagree with or don’t understand, he’ll be happy to try and help. I appreciate his generosity in sharing his knowledge in this regard. Metta, Sarah ====== 30850 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, Christine & All, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > While the historic Buddha > chose > not to embrace many of the concepts of Hinduism, still his philosophy > and > practice were well within the constraints of that liturgy. One need > only read > these three bodies of literature to find evidence for that fact. .... S: However, I think that when one reads the Tipitaka, it’s immediately apparent that ‘his philosophy and practice’ were quite outside any constraints, especially with regard to the teaching on anatta. .... > In the yoga sutras the basic theme is one practices meditation to give > rise > to absorption states (samadhis), which are numbered in 8 intervals, and > culminate in nirvikalpa samadhi, which is otherwise known as nirvana. > This concept > of course is both philosophically and linguistically tied to the > Buddhist > concept of nirvana/nibbana and the jhanas. .... S: The question is whether there is any understanding of the ‘Buddhist concept of nibbana’ of any kind for those who have not begun to develop satipatthana. Even then, it can only be be known and understood at the stage of stream-entry. Recently Christine and Victor posted the well-known ‘Fire Sermon’. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion Christine wrote: ..... >Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note about its origination, which is below: BB: "This sutta, often called "The Fire Sermon", is the third discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry at Vin I 34-35. According to this source, the thousand bhikkus were former jatila (matted-hair) ascetics under the leadership of the three Kassapa brothers. The Buddha had converted them by a series of miracles, after which he preached the present sermon. The sermon gains special meaning from the fact that before their conversion these ascetics had been devoted to the fire sacrifice. The full account is at Vin I 24-34; see Naanamoli, 'Life of the Buddha', pp. 54-60, 64-69. .... I followed the reference, Chris. The leader and guide of the brothers was Kassapa of Uruvela, highly regarded for his special powers and enlightened status no doubt. He watched the miracles performed by the Buddha including one in a fire chamber. After each one, Kassapa was very impressed but still considered the Buddha was not an arahant like himself. Eventually, we read: “Then the Blessed One thought: ‘This misguided man will go on forever thinking ‘But he is not an Arahant like me.’ Suppose I give him a shock?’ He told Uruvela Kassapa: ‘Kassapa, you are neither an Arahant nor are you on the way to becoming one. There is nothing that you do by which you might become an Arahant or enter into the way to becoming one.’ Kassapa and all the other matted-hair ascetics then took refuge in the Triple Gem and were ordained. .... Chris wrote: Spk: Having led the thousand bhikkhus to Gayaa's Head, the Blessed One reflected, "What kind of Dhamma talk would be suitable for them?" He then realized, "In the past they worshipped the fire morning and evening. I will teach them that the twelve sense bases are burning and blazing. In this way they will be able to attain arahantship." In this sutta the characteristic of suffering is discussed." ... And as we read at the end of the sutta, they all became arahants after fully penetrating the meaning there and then. Metta, Sarah ====== 30851 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Hi Robert, Agreed, except I would say 'the Buddha's sense' rather than 'the Buddhist sense' since so much (all most all) Buddhism has little to do with the Buddhadhamma. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:23 PM Subject: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what meditation means in the Buddhist sense. 30852 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Nina,James & All, S:Yes,always better to clear up any misunderstandings, especially amongst good dhamma friends like yourselves. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > This definition is better, but still not a very good thing. .... S: Nina, ‘Pandering’ is not so strong as James said. We might say a parent is always pandering to a child’s requests - something like that. Still, not very good as you say. ... > Visit her yourself and you can see whether she caters to the lower > tastes of > others, > that is all. .... S:I can’t help smiling at the thought of James visiting and expecting to be ‘pandered’ in anyway. Whilst I’m happy to be considered as having low tastes (or to be a ‘foolish woman’ which is very true), I can truly say that in 50 years I have never met *anyone* who pandered less to my low tastes and ignorance than K.Sujin;-) Shakti referred to some of her responses to questions as being like a ‘Manjushri sword’ cutting through the proliferations. She meant this as a real compliment, but it doesn’t appeal to our lower tastes, just as what we read in the texts doesn’t either. Just one brief example: Our very dear friend, Alan Driver (ex Phra Dhammadharo),who Nina and Azita sometimes quote, was killed in a nasty car accident in Thailand, 15 or 20 years ago, I forget. Jon had gone ahead for the ceremonies. I was teaching and could only go over for the actual funeral and cremation. I arrived tired and teary and feeling rather overwhelmed. Others helped ‘pander’ to my emotional state by offering me drinks, food, sympathy and the usual kindnesses. K.Sujin just smiled and talked about the distress as indicating the deep attachment to self and my own feelings. She’d then continue to talk about the usuals (seeing, visible object,thinking and so on). It was incredible. Within 5 -10 minutes I was smiling, eating and plucking flowers with the others as well, shocked out of my self-indulgent grief. Later, after the cremation, some of Alan’s bones were laid out. K.Sujin told me to touch them. “You see, just hardness, that’s all.” (Nina, sorry to repeat this example). Pandering reminds me more of what other teachers used to say to me before I heard K.Sujin or read Nina’s books. I’d meditate intensively and happily, be ticking off the stages of insight from the Visuddhimagga or Mahasi Sayadaw book. I’d visit Munindra or later the chief Venerable at my temple in Sri Lanka who’d tell me (I’m sure in good faith) this was all great and to carry on in this way to become enlightened any day soon. Deep down I knew there was something phoney about it all, but it was only when I listened to a tape of K.Sujin talking about the stories in the mind and the present moment and also read the first couple of pages of Nina’s ADL about nama and rupa, no self, that the penny really dropped that there wasn’t even a basic understanding of realities and all my intensive meditation had been followed with the wonderfull illusory idea that awareness could be controlled, no matter how much I’d read about anatta. Everyone has different experiences and we never know when we’ll read or hear something that is worthwhile for us. Everyone has different experiences. One thing for sure, hearing and reflecting on the truth is not easy and does not pander to our lower tastes, wherever we hear or read it in the Buddha’s teachings. Only the 'Triple Gem' can be our refuge as you reminded us, James. I appreciated that a lot. Metta, Sarah ====== 30853 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Sarah, I posted a message to the effect that the Dhamma is subjective. Your sentiments here confirms this further. Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nina,James & All, > > > Deep down I knew there was something phoney about it all, but it was only > when I listened to a tape of K.Sujin talking about the stories in the mind > and the present moment and also read the first couple of pages of Nina's > ADL about nama and rupa, no self, that the penny really dropped that there > wasn't even a basic understanding of realities and all my intensive > meditation had been followed with the wonderfull illusory idea that > awareness could be controlled, no matter how much I'd read about anatta. > > Everyone has different experiences and we never know when we'll read or > hear something that is worthwhile for us. Everyone has different > experiences. One thing for sure, hearing and reflecting on the truth is > not easy and does not pander to our lower tastes, wherever we hear or read > it in the Buddha's teachings. Only the 'Triple Gem' can be our refuge as > you reminded us, James. I appreciated that a lot. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > > 30854 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Ken O (& Chris), [Chris, thanks for posting the relevant part from the Sabbaasava Sutta, M2. I checked the pali for ideas or things in BB’s and it’s ‘dhamme’] --- Ken O wrote:> > k: Why a need to discuss the washing of dishes in the first place? > Anyway I did not say that simple things like walking or washing > dishes are not dhamma, they are dhamma and they are explain in > sattipatthana. ..... S:Discussing household chores in part of daily life. There can be sati, panna and wholesome states whilst washing dishes or talking about this topic. It just depends on the cittas at this or any other time. Wise attention and guarding the sense doors can arise anytime at all with right understanding. ..... > k: Is there a need to give a smile just because most people prefer > to see one in the first place? I dont think just because we did not > utter pleasantaries for other first, we are not polite. That is > called conditioned by self view or societal view. ..... S:Again it depends on the citta. We may smile with kusala or akusala cittas (as you know), or not smile with the same. If we consider others and smile or offer pleasantries, it can be with metta. At moments of metta, there is no ‘self or societal view’. However, I think we can also conform with ‘societal view’ with kusala cittas too. There doesn’t need to be any conflict. Likewise, we can not conform with kusala as well;-) ..... > K: Definitely when we teach others who do not know much about dhammas > with societal moral values and ethics that should be followed. Just > like I teach my son to be courteous .... S:Even if your son learns about the dhamma, it will be helpful for him to learn about societal values as well I think and then he can combine them;-) Like in Singapore, he can learn not to leave his chewing gum lying around out of consideration for others and as a societal value;-) .... > k: Did you see Buddha doing that when he visit a house and start > this type of conversation ;-). She is lay person that is alright. .... S:And we are lay people too;-)No limit to when sati can arise. Even bhikkhus can show courtesy and friendliness. When B.Bodhi visited HK last year, I was particularly impressed again by his concern and metta for others’ welfare and his friendly enquiries about us and others. .... > k: Yes, but why create more when we can be more mindful of our > motivations. I say to you once in Bkk that if we are not doing > anything kusala then it is aksuala :). .... S:No self to create and what is ‘doing’? If the citta (in the javana) is not kusala, it’s akusala. However, cittas are conditioned whether we speak or keep quiet, offer dana or perform misdeeds. Wise and unwise attention are so brief and momentary. Thinking about our motivations before and after acting can be useful. Even more useful is the sati and wise attention at that very moment of thinking or seeing or hearing. ..... >That is why zealous is > conditioned to arise as one knows the danger of not guarding the > senses because any moment Mara will attack. It is a natural > condition that is not need to purposely to mindful but understanding > of this will conditioned zeal to be mindful. .... S:Isn’t this thinking about being zealous or wishing to be zealous? Just checking. As I said, chanda or zeal can be kusala or akusala. .... > k: If you dont think intellectually in the first place and ponder its > meaning, it will not conditioned direct understanding. We must first > start with right understaning at the pannati level. If we dont even > consider dhamma in the pannati level for eg reading dhamma books, > there is no way we can conditioned right direct knowledge. .... S:OK, we agree, though even when we consider and reflect wisely, lobha can creep in anytime, wishing for a result, clinging to understanding and so on. Understanding that sati can arise whilst having dish washing conversations is also intellectual right understanding;-) .... > k: Sarah I think you and Jon has misunderstood about purposely > avoiding or self impose. If right understand arose that know the > danger of useless talk, one will know why one will naturally stop > talking unnecessary. .... S:Let’s say rt understanding knows the danger of kilesa and unwise attention at that moment and there will be avoiding of wrong speech (motivated by akusala)or wrong anything else. A moment later, it may be akusala speech (or silence) again. On our visit before in Bangkok, I remember Azita asking if a certain conversation was wrong speech. I had to consider. The truth, I think, is that usually kusala and akusala follow each other other very closely. We may start to give an example for a dhamma discussion as I was, but attachment and ‘idle chatter’ with unwise attention can creep in very easily.Even as I write now, there are moments wishing to have right speech, ignorance and a myriad of other realities being experienced. .... > k: As what Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech", Buddha only > talks about kings etc only with the intention to teach the dhamma. > Other than that he dont mentioned it. >How could Buddha who said that > such talk is low talk and then encourage others to follow it. It > will not be possible. Hence one only talk about this if one wish to > seed some dhamma on others or not one will not talk about it > (strictly speaking that is for monks/nuns). So do you think when you > start a conversation about dish washing is the intention to seed > dhamma. So it is, good for you, if it is not then we have to think > what is the motivation behind it. ..... S:If it’s kusala or there’s metta at that moment it’s always good, regardless of whether there is any ‘intention to seed dhamma’. There can also be moments of right understanding at any time during the conversation and then there is wise attention as explained in the sutta and commentary. Understanding namas and rupas when they arise and appreciating the value of all kinds of kusala is more precious than thinking about our own and others’ motivations (which we can only blindly guess at). ..... >When you quote Sabhassa sutta, > idle chatter is definitely unwise attention. ... S:Idle chatter always refers to akusala or wrong speech, not the topic as such. With my students, I might discuss drugs, sex or rock n’roll. There are likely to be kusala and akusala cittas as I speak. Only sati and panna will know. As the commentary made clear ‘there is no fixed determination in things (dhammas) themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention.’ Also, ‘when he attends to any mundane things through the four ‘perversions’, the taint of ignorance arises and increases. Of course the converse is true. From the sutta, we read: “What are the things fit for attention that he attends to? These are things (dhammas) such that when he attends them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire does not arise in him.....ignorance is abandoned.” Even whilst taking about dish-washing, one could become enlightened with sufficient insight developed. As the commentary said “...up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, wise attention denotes insight (vipassana), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin.” Thanks Ken O. You always help me to consider more deeply. I also appreciated your posts in Victor’s corner and that’s not a ‘societal view’. (Is he waiting for us or are we waiting for him?) Metta, Sarah ===== 30855 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:24am Subject: Victor Re: The powerful tendecy Hello Sarah and all, Victor is away from 2 March until 16 March, and will be without computer or internet access during that time. I shall do my best not to let the side down :-) ... Once more into the breach dear friends etc. etc. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > Thanks Ken O. You always help me to consider more deeply. I also > appreciated your posts in Victor's corner and that's not a `societal > view'. (Is he waiting for us or are we waiting for him?) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 30856 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Robert k, > What, are you leaving dsg? I thought you would stay on, I am really sad > about that. But I know you will have a busy time just now! I hope you come > back soon. > I did not know I had written about 100 letters? Nice story you went to the > cemetery or woods, I did not know. > ======= Dear Nina, I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that came later. Here is an url to the cemetery. Turns out it is only 228 acres - but still New Zealand's largest. http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/history.asp It has gentle hills; places with little glades; eerie valleys where the very old graves are all overgrown. Nice memories. RobertK P.s. I was thinking of selling the old house near there we used to live in (now rented out). Hmm maybe the Adams family ...http://www.hammerposters.com/pics/us10191.jpg 30857 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Eznir & Howard, --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I posted a message to the effect that the Dhamma is subjective. Your > sentiments here confirms this further. .... S:I think I understand you as I’ve followed your discussions with Howard with interest. In your well-written post (30584) to Howard, I agreed with most your comments and liked your quotes. One question. You wrote: .... E:>And how does one construct this path? Through intentions.< ..... S:This reminded me of our discussion which I’ve been meaning to get back to. ..... E: >How is it that intentions could be directed is the question. Lord Buddha in the Khajjaniya Sutta(Chewed Up) in SN-XXII.79 says: And what, monks, do you say are determinations(sankhára)? 'They determine the determined': that, monks, is why they are called 'determinations'. <...> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-079.html) Expounded here are the function of Sankhára, how the 5-holding- aggregates, of which we are burdened with, are determined. This is to say a thing is what it is determined for. .... S: The point I think is that they (the khandhas) are conditioned. No self to direct them. .... E:<...> How does one purify the mind? Fill it up with Wholesome/skillful(kusala) states. How? By intending bodily, verbally and mentally. What does one intend? That which is wholesome(37- enlightenment factors) and conducive to Nibbana. Selection process? Wise attention. .... S:This is good. Ken O and I are discussing wise attention too. I think the key is understanding again rather than intention. .... E:So, given here, in brief, is the process by which this `directing the mind' towards Nibbana is achieved. It's easier said than done though!! ... S:Why so? Anatta;-) .... E:Read Dvedavitakka Sutta MN-19 to see how Lord Buddha directed his mind to sort two types of thoughts, the kusala and akusala. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm .... S:Good suttas, all to be read in the light of satipatthana I think. I'll be glad to hear any further comments you have to share, Eznir. Howard, on the meaning of vinnana in D.O. I think it refers to the seeing, hearing and so on - results of kamma, thus conditioned by sankhara (in this case referring to kammic formations. Don’t confuse it with ~nana or wisdom or sati (awareness). From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary),Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli, Edited and Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness.” ***** The commentary adds: “In the section on consciousness, eye-consciousness (cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) is consciousness in the eye or consciousness born from the eye. so also with ear-, nose-. tongue-, and body consciousness. but with the other one, i.e mind-consciousness (manovi~n~naa.na), mind itself is consciousness. This is a designation for the resultant consciousness of the three (munane) planes of existence except for the two groups of fiefold consciousness. With the arising of formations (sa’nkhaarasamudayaa): but here the arising of consciousness should be understood to occur with the arising of formations according to the method stated in the Visuddhimagga, as to which formation is a condition for which consciousness (XV11, 175-185).” ***** Would you agree with this? Metta, Sarah ===== 30858 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James, and thank-you for the encouragement to keep reading the pitaka. However, I regret to have to direct your attention to the Maha-satipatthana Sutta DN 22, where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana. N 22.21 "And what is sama-samadhi? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana... Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/1/04 6:24:15 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << I believe you are quite mistaken in this belief. Satipatthana doesn't result in any of the Jhana states. To summarize, the Buddha described Satipatthana as the `only direct path' and jhana as a `peaceful abiding in the here and now'. Perhaps you should go back and re-read the appropriate suttas and stop changing the words to suit your taste. Metta, James >> 30859 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hi Rob, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I > made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that > came later. .... Yes, I remember we read some, but also had a little difficulty with the writing over the entire sheets;-) Most Nina's old letters were all typed and duplicated, but your correspondence was special - all hand-written;-) Perhaps you'd consider selecting suitable Q & A from it and posting for everyone to see. Just slowly when you have time and if you keep us all happy by sticking around;-) Metta, Sarah ======== 30860 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 2:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Michael, and all, I think there are a number of things nowadays that could, in certain circumstances, be called silabbata-paraamaasa 'attachment to mere rules and ritual'. From the Oxford Dictionary: ---Rite: The act of performing divine or solemn service, as established by law, precept, or custom; a formal act of religion or other solemn duty; a solemn observance; a ceremony; ---Ritual:1. any customary observance or practice 2. the prescribed procedure for conductiong religious ceremonies 3. stereotyped behaviour. I have had it pointed out to me in the past that zealous keeping of the Precepts for the sake of keeping precepts could be an example of silabbata-paraamaasa. As well, it has been said that feeling one had to be in a certain place, at a certain time, and in a certain posture for mental development 'bhavana' to occur could also be an example. I'd be interested to hear your ideas. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Christine and all, > > > > Christine: > > The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream > represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly > established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, > namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, > Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now > he will be reborn seven times at the most. > > > > Michael > > Always good to remember the stages of enlightenment. In my mind anyone who takes the Buddhist path seriously should aim at least to the level of sotapanna in this very life. That is the only guarantee of continuing following the path in future lives and not falling back into lower planes of rebirth. Looking at the three fetters that have to be eradicated to reach sotapanna I was always puzzled by the adherence to rites and rituals. I suspect very few people would think that they have any kind of belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals, this sounds like some sort of ancient custom which does not apply today, and therefore the eradication of this fetter could be taken as a done deal. But is that really so? Can anyone see in our modern beliefs some sort of adherence that would fall into this category as intended by the Buddha? I have some ideas about that but let's see if others have something to say. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered > > 30861 From: Eznir Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Dear Howard, ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't interpret the eradication of the entire process as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance- based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective knowns. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self- experiencing. When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. --------------------------------------------------- eznir: If we can speak of a "living Arahant" I suppose the persistence of his 5-aggregates(because of life-principle and nutrition), until his body breaks up, would be structured this way: 1) Because of wisdom – there is no new constructions(Sankharas). 2) Because of residual constructs – Consciousness persists. 3) Because of consciousness – namarupa persists. 4) Because of namarupa – sensory fields(salayatana) persists. 5) Because of sensory fields – contact. 6) Because of contact – feelings persists. Since there is no craving, his structure collapses from this point. All the above will persist till life-principle is there. 1) As you said, since ignorance has ceased, wisdom prevails. Therefore whatever actions performed by an Arahant does not constitute kamma(no craving, conceit or views). Therefore no new constructs. 2) As life-principle remains residual constructs(5-aggregates) persists. Therefore the 4-fold requisites necessary. Hence consciousness, namarupa … till feeling is experienced with Wisdom as he has to interact with the outside world for the requisites and Teaching the Dhamma. But in private they are not necessary as they may abide in `voidness'or other states they are skilled in(It is said that Lord Buddha abides in voidness often). ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure! Subjectivity (meaning "the sense of a knowing self") really does arise in the mind, and it does so practically all the time. But the "knowing self" that is sensed does not exist. So, the subjectivity (i.e., the seeming of knowing self) is a mirage/illusion in the sense that it actually points to nothing, just as the seeming of a pool of water in an utterly dry desert is a mirage/illusion because there is no pool - but, in each case, the mirage/illusion does arise in the mind of the weary wanderer. Language use is funny, of course. Sometimes 'mirage' means the illusory experience (which exists), and sometimes it means the non-existent "thing" that seems to be experienced. ----------------------------------------------------------- eznir: A finer point regards Illusion & Mirage: The word `Illusion' brings up the image of a magician performing on a stage a conjuring trick in front of an audience. The audience is not going to believe that there is a rabbit in the top hat when he pulls one out of it. But is only curious as to how he does it. There is no belief involved. With `Mirage' it is different. It is associated with a weary traveler on a desert, having lost his way, traveling under the hot noon sun, with the vultures circling up in the sky for company. Then he sees an oasis in the distance. He sums up his remaining energy and rushes towards it, to find it's a mirage! In this image, he believes what he seems to see and this is certain for him under the circumstances. The Mahayanist school of thought would like to believe that the Self is an illusion. That nothing is real, not even the 5-aggregates. That everything is in a state of flux. The Theravada school of thought would believe that the Self is a mirage. It seems real but the reality is only in the persistence of the 5-aggregates which he does not know. The self-identity(individuality) of the 5-aggregates and the identity of self in the 5- aggregates are two different things. The former is the distinctive difference between two sets of 5-aggregates, while the latter is personality view, the super ego, , of this 5- aggregates, so to speak. In both there is subjectivity, except in the latter there is personality view on top of it(RESTING LIKE A PARASITE). metta eznir 30862 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Sarah k: I thought we have stop > S:Discussing household chores in part of daily life. There can be > sati, panna and wholesome states whilst washing dishes or talking about this topic. It just depends on the cittas at this or any other time. Wise attention and guarding the sense doors can arise anytime at all with right understanding. k: I know what you gearing at, I told you earlier there is satipatthana in every moment. What I saying is, are you sure it is metta that you first started about dish washing. One can be concern of other welfare but that does not mean metta because we want to know how the person doing or going. It can be plain akusala citta that condition the conversation. > .... > S:And we are lay people too;-)No limit to when sati can arise. Even > bhikkhus can show courtesy and friendliness. When B.Bodhi visited > HK last year, I was particularly impressed again by his concern and metta for others’ welfare and his friendly enquiries about us and others. > .... k: Have you seen Buddha disciples (monks and nuns) offer pleasantaries to lay people. It is always the other way round. I have not seen in the Sutta that monks offer pleasantaries to laypple. If nowadays monks/nun do that then its up to them. As the Buddha say, if it is not the dhamma then remain Noble silent. Why because of tendecies, when we talk of how are you, are you ok, all these are householder talk, it could bring attachment to the household life, it brings memories. That is why this precept is enforced for monks/nuns. > S:No self to create and what is ‘doing’? If the citta (in the > javana) is not kusala, it’s akusala. However, cittas are conditioned whether we speak or keep quiet, offer dana or perform misdeeds. Wise and unwise attention are so brief and momentary. Thinking about our motivations before and after acting can be useful. Even more useful is the sati and wise attention at that very moment of thinking or seeing or hearing. > ..... K: We know what we are talking so do pick on words ;-). Thinking is not the right word. I should have used wise attention. I say earlier, not just after or before but also the present. .... > S:Isn’t this thinking about being zealous or wishing to be zealous? > Just checking. As I said, chanda or zeal can be kusala or akusala. > .... k: Zealous is a natural condition. Only considering of dhamma then zealous will be arise because one knows the danger of aksuala cittas. > > Thanks Ken O. You always help me to consider more deeply. I also > appreciated your posts in Victor’s corner and that’s not a > ‘societal view’. (Is he waiting for us or are we waiting for him?) k: I am waiting for him. Ken O 30863 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Micheal I am surprise. I believe you should know better than saying such words. This gave me an impression either you are genuinely do not understand the danger of sensual pleasure or you are just trying to test my understanding. Be very mindful of akusala cittas because even seeing a neutral object , it would have conditioned akusala cittas. If you think it is easy to say lets enjoy it with detachment as some people will like to tell themselves, then I would say good luck because that is an unwise view. All sensual pleasure are burning with passion. One moment of citta of akusala could bring a big avalanche of aksuala tendecies that dated since countless lives ago. Buddha is not just concern about akusala cittas, IMHO he is more concern about the kilesa of akusala cittas that could conditioned akusala citta to arise again and again which is hard to detect but powerful when it manifested. I have seen stories about disciples who lost their powers because IMHO latency has arise and subdue them. Ken O --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello KenO, > > Yeah. I can see how difficult it is. Better not bother about it and > stick with the pleasure of the senses. > > Metta > Michael 30864 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: Back to the cushion Hello Ken, and James, and all. I've been intending to get back to a question that Ken was kind enought to ask the other day. This is probably not the best time to add to the "to sit or not" debate, but I guess that is ongoing, so no harm done. And no one will be likely to take the opinion of a beginner with too much seriousness that could add to the intensity of the debate in an unpleasant way. Ken: > May I ask; is your sitting meditation aimed at jhana or > at satipatthana? There is a lot of confusion over the meaning of > those terms. P: I do basic, beginner's vipassana as taught in "Mindfulness in Plain English" with the breath as meditation object. Or should I say "had been doing." I had no ambition to ever become a jhana practicioner, believing right off the bat, perhaps incorrectly, that it was out of the question living in a modest-sized apartment with noisy neighbours on all sides and a time-demanding, non- contemplative wife awaiting my reappearance in the kitchen to cook or wash the dishes. :) I always felt that the meditation was just an exercise getting em ready for the day ahead, because it seemed to me that mindfulness during the day was more important, somehow. I guess that's one reason I've responded so favourably to the kind of examination of realities taught in Nina's books, though I've only begun to grasp what it is. The book I read recommended Metta contemplation as a warm-up exercise for vipassana, but I was doing it the other way around, as the Brahma-VIharas are so very important for me. I saw the sense of calm I sometimes (when I didn't fall asleep) accessed in meditation as a manifestation of Upekkha, which is central in my Brahma-Vihara practice. I know this is not Right Understanding, but I take great liberties with Brahma-VIharas, applying their "boundless" nature to freedom from rules, as well. When I sat in the morning, I was really warming up my immersion in Upekkha for the day ahead. Indeed, I discovered that during the day, as I walked my 30 minutes to the station, I was unconciously coming back to the breath, to that calmness. (In my Brahma-Viharas practice, the way I have coneptualized and to some point embodied it, Metta and Karuna arise from Upekkha, with Upekkha as a kind of base camp to retreat to, though this group is helping me to be free from that kind of "safe haven of the soul" kind of thinking.) Anyways, the Vipassana practice is not as firlmly established as the Brahma-VIharas, which I have been playing with (having fun is important) for a couple of years now. Coming to this group and finding a tradition that denies the need for seated meditation was quite surprising, as I'm sure it is for most people. And I resisted the idea at first. But when I think of it, now, it seems quite common sense to at least ask if it isn't indeed self that must by definition make the decision to sit and steer the attention to a focus point. This evening, I was reading this excellent article about spiritual materialism that James (thank you James) was kind enough to link me to in response to my concerns about my motivations of practice the other day: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Here is a passage from it: "The Lords' defenses are created out of the material of our minds. This material of mind is used by the Lords in such a way as to maintain the basic myth of solidity. In order to ?ee ?or ourselves how this process works we must examine our own experience. "But how," we might ask, "are we to conduct the examination? What method or tool are we to use?" The method that the Buddha discovered is meditation. He discovered that struggling to find answers did not work. It was only when there were gaps in his struggle that insights came to him. He began to realize that there was a sane, awake quality within him which manifested itself only in the absence of struggle. So the practice of meditation involves "letting be." " (end of quote) "The Lords" refers to "The Three Lords" which the article says is a a Tibetan metaphor for the functioning of Ego. The Lord of Form refers to "the neurotic pursuit of physical comfort." The Lord of Speech refers to "the use of intellect in relating to the our world." The Lord of Mind refers to "the effort of consciousness to maintain awareness of itself." Now, when I read the above passage, I asked myself who decides to set the "gaps" in the "struggle?" In my case, when I did my beginner's vipassana, a big part of it was getting comfort out of whatever calm I accessed, having that breath as a reliable friend to return to. Surely that was The Lord of Form seeking comfort. For the time being, I will be examining the very new-to-me notion of going through the day without this kind of the breath as a reliable friend to return to for comfort. For the time being. I know for the people here who are serious practicioners of sitting meditation, this problem has been overcome, but for me it hasn't, and while I will still be sitting, as a warm-up for Brahma-Viharas contemplation (which is shamelessly conceptual) for the time being it won't be much more than that, I'm sure. But I make it a point to stay open to new turns in the road, and I'm sure there are many ahead. One of them could very well find me devoted to sitting meditation. There are many ways to learn about, practice and eventuall be Dhamma, and more than one of them can be Right, of course. Sorry for rambling. If anyone is still reading this, I would like to give you a Toblerone chocolate bar as a reward for your patience. :) Metta, Philip 30865 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > k: I know what you gearing at, I told you earlier there is > satipatthana in every moment. What I saying is, are you sure it is > metta that you first started about dish washing. One can be concern > of other welfare but that does not mean metta because we want to know > how the person doing or going. It can be plain akusala citta that > condition the conversation. ... It can be. You can ask Lodewijk next time;-) Only sati will know, not the other person. In truth, I have no doubt there were kusala and akusala cittas arising for us both during the conversation;-)No need to pinpoint exactly what citta started the conversation. Impossible to know;-) ..... > k: Have you seen Buddha disciples (monks and nuns) offer > pleasantaries to lay people. It is always the other way round. I > have not seen in the Sutta that monks offer pleasantaries to laypple. .... S:You may be right, but I just opened MN at the first sutta with a lay person: "Then the brahmin Jaa.nusso.ni went to the Blessed One and *exchanged greetings* with him. When this courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side and said......" We'd have to look at the pali to know what exactly 'exchanged greetings' means. .... > If nowadays monks/nun do that then its up to them. As the > Buddha say, if it is not the dhamma then remain Noble silent. Why > because of tendecies, when we talk of how are you, are you ok, all > these are householder talk, it could bring attachment to the > household life, it brings memories. That is why this precept is > enforced for monks/nuns. .... Yes, for monks/nuns as you say. Metta, Sarah p.s no threads ever dead;-) ======= 30866 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: Scholars and Meditators Hello James, and all. I enjoyed the comic relief in this. It's always pleasant to read about people of different traditions learning to respect each other. This is the sutta's description of "Dhamma Experts" >`Look at those monks! They think, "We >are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are > conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They > are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack > concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are > uncontrolled. When I first came across DSG, just before the end of the year, I had the impression that the above could be the case here. All that Pali! I couldn't make heads or tails of it, and while I could tell something very impressive was going on, I thought there might be intellectual ego at work. Now I am learning otherwise. THe Pali terms refer to realities that we can come to experience directly. The practice taught by Nina and others promises to lead me, I sense, to the polar opposite of being "devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension." It's about experience ultimate realities here and now. I'm sure we're all familiar with the kind of puffed-up Dhamma experts the sutta refers to. But I haven't come across any in my time at DSG yet. (Well, to be honest I find one of the spammers a bit dosa- arousing) Still feeling very, very grateful for having come across this group. With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been studying the AN lately (wanted to take a break from the > SN), and I came across this sutta that just really made me laugh—a nd > reminded me of DSG ;-)): > AN 125 "Scholars and Meditators" > > Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was > dwelling at Sahajati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the > monks thus: > > "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma (20) and they > disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: `Look at those > monks! They think, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so > they meditate to and fro, meditate up and down! (21) What, then, do > they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these > monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they > will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the > multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and > happiness of devas and humans. (22) > > "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks > who are keen on Dhamma, saying `Look at those monks! They think, "We > are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are > conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They > are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack > concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are > uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are > they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor > those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practicing > for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the > multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. > > "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma- > experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators > who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who > are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and > they will be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the > multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and > happiness of devas and humans. > > "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we > ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise those monks who are > meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who > have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana). > > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we > ourselves are meditators, we will praise those monks who are Dhamma- > experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world > who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." > > Note 20: Dhammayoga. AA says that the term refers to preachers > (dhamma-kathika), but it probably refers to all those who are keen on > studies and cultivate principally the intellectual approach. The > term seems to be unique to the present text and the distincition > posited between meditators and "those keen on Dhamma" is suggestive > of a late origin. > > Note 21: Jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanbti avajjhayanti. These > synonyms, formed by prefixes to the verb "to meditate", cannot be > rendered adequately into English. They are meant to indicate > belittlement and ridicule. > > Note: If people refuse to give respect or recognition to those with > talents, temperaments or pursuits different from those of their own, > only mutual displeasure will result. An exclusive emphasis on one- > sided development will not lead to progress and true happiness, which > can be found only in an ever-renewed attempt at harmonizing what > should be complementary, and not antagonistic, in the human mind and > in society. > > James Note': I just had a sobering thought: What if we all have been > arguing this subject for coutless lifetimes? ;-)) 30867 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > One more thing, It *seemed* to me you implied time and again that the > Abhidhamma is against the Buddha's teaching, and that the work I do in > writing about the abhidhamma is acting against the Buddha's teaching. It > seems that whever you have a chance you say something along these lines. > Again, I don't mind this, but like to know. > What exactly in my ADL book put you off? What exactly in the Abhidhamma you > find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? What exactly in Buddhaghosa you > find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? Hi Nina, I am not going to answer these questions in detail. They are too vast and complicated to try to tackle. Why drudge up the past? Why do you want me to justify how I was in a certain time in the past? I am not the same person now as I was then; I will not be the same person in the future as I am now. I have let all of my past views and comments go. They are not me. You should let them go also. Perhaps I still hold some of the same views as the past and perhaps I have altered some, but that isn't important. Let me quote from Ven. K. Piyatissa Thera for something to contemplate: "All things are momentary. Both his mind and body are momentary too. The thoughts and the body with which the wrong was done to me are not now existing. What I call the same man now are the thoughts and physical parts which are different from the earlier ones that harmed me although belonging to the same psycho-physical process. Thus, one thought together with one mass of physical parts did me some wrong, and vanished there and then, giving place to succeeding thoughts and material parts to appear. So with which am I getting angry? WIth the vanished and disappeared thoughts and physical parts or with the thoughts and material parts which do not do any wrong now? Should I get angry with one thing which is innocent whereas another thing has done me wrong and vanished?" I will comment to this issue of your writing however. (Perhaps the fact that I like Y. Karundasa's writing on the Abhidhamma more than yours has inspired this line of questioning?) Honestly, your writing style doesn't greatly appeal to me because I like more `vibrancy' in writing and also philosophical explanations. Your writing is very plain and packed with details (I thought I had covered this before??). However, your writing does appeal to many others. Writing is a matter of taste and there is no one style that is superior to others. You write in a style that helps to encourage detachment from the words and the style. That is commendable. I like fancy words and flowery language; what can I say? ;-)) The Buddha also used colorful language when the situation warranted it, and he sometimes used very simple speech. You write in a language that is not your mother tongue so it is by necessity simplistic. I am a published writer but that doesn't mean I am an expert about all writing. As far as content, I have some disagreements about how you present dhammas, rupa especially. In summary, I pretty much agree with all that Michael says in this regard. I believe you present dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as temporary phenomena with no essence. Metta, James 30869 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob, > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I > > made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that > > came later. > .... > Yes, I remember we read some, but also had a little difficulty with the > writing over the entire sheets;-) Most Nina's old letters were all typed > and duplicated, but your correspondence was special - all hand- written;-) > > Perhaps you'd consider selecting suitable Q & A from it and posting for > everyone to see. Just slowly when you have time and if you keep us all > happy by sticking around;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Dear Sarah, Rob and others, It's strange [well, conditioned I suppose], but just today as I was cleaning out some old papers etc. I came across some 'roneo-d' sheets with the heading "Discussions in Sri Lanka 1979" the very year I was there with my then, small daughter Zoe. Here are some of the 'one-liners': If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, it is impossible to develop right understanding. One takes subtle attachment for calmness bec of lack of understanding of calmness. When there is awareness, there is no thinking of far or near objects. Who knows the other's cittas? The aim of thinking about concepts in the right way is to know more about realities. Life is make belief. We make it something it isn't. If you think you are so clever and others don't think so, you feel sorry. Attachment to self brings sorrow. Can you tell what is beyond this moment? It is kindness to others if we don't cling to them or encourage them to be attached to us. When there is dosa, there is strong lobha somewhere that has conditioned it. The Buddha taught us to listen to Dhamma, not to people............... Enuff for now, my eyes aren't workin' properly. More later. ....but I like this one: we don't understand the game of tanha, so we follow it wherever it goes!!!! Metta, Azita. 30870 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Christine, I have not elaborated on this idea a lot but I tend to see a parallel between the attachment to rites and rituals prevalent at the time of the Buddha and our modern attachment to science. That all problems in life and all answers can be solved by science. I think science is our modern rites and rituals. But as I said I would have to work on that to substantiate my arguments. At this point it is just a thought. What do you think of that? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:07 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Michael, and all, I think there are a number of things nowadays that could, in certain circumstances, be called silabbata-paraamaasa 'attachment to mere rules and ritual'. From the Oxford Dictionary: ---Rite: The act of performing divine or solemn service, as established by law, precept, or custom; a formal act of religion or other solemn duty; a solemn observance; a ceremony; ---Ritual:1. any customary observance or practice 2. the prescribed procedure for conductiong religious ceremonies 3. stereotyped behaviour. I have had it pointed out to me in the past that zealous keeping of the Precepts for the sake of keeping precepts could be an example of silabbata-paraamaasa. As well, it has been said that feeling one had to be in a certain place, at a certain time, and in a certain posture for mental development 'bhavana' to occur could also be an example. I'd be interested to hear your ideas. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" ...> wrote: > Hello Christine and all, > > > > Christine: > > The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream > represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly > established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, > namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, > Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now > he will be reborn seven times at the most. > > > > Michael > > Always good to remember the stages of enlightenment. In my mind anyone who takes the Buddhist path seriously should aim at least to the level of sotapanna in this very life. That is the only guarantee of continuing following the path in future lives and not falling back into lower planes of rebirth. Looking at the three fetters that have to be eradicated to reach sotapanna I was always puzzled by the adherence to rites and rituals. I suspect very few people would think that they have any kind of belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals, this sounds like some sort of ancient custom which does not apply today, and therefore the eradication of this fetter could be taken as a done deal. But is that really so? Can anyone see in our modern beliefs some sort of adherence that would fall into this category as intended by the Buddha? I have some ideas about that but let's see if others have something to say. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered ttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered> > > 30871 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, There is no human life without pleasure, right? There are only two kinds of pleasure, not a third one. Pleasure of the senses and jhanas. If one does not enjoy the pleasure of jhanas what does he/she enjoy? Pretty obvious isn't it? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Micheal I am surprise. I believe you should know better than saying such words. This gave me an impression either you are genuinely do not understand the danger of sensual pleasure or you are just trying to test my understanding. Be very mindful of akusala cittas because even seeing a neutral object , it would have conditioned akusala cittas. If you think it is easy to say lets enjoy it with detachment as some people will like to tell themselves, then I would say good luck because that is an unwise view. All sensual pleasure are burning with passion. One moment of citta of akusala could bring a big avalanche of aksuala tendecies that dated since countless lives ago. Buddha is not just concern about akusala cittas, IMHO he is more concern about the kilesa of akusala cittas that could conditioned akusala citta to arise again and again which is hard to detect but powerful when it manifested. I have seen stories about disciples who lost their powers because IMHO latency has arise and subdue them. Ken O --- Michael Beisert > wrote: > Hello KenO, > > Yeah. I can see how difficult it is. Better not bother about it and > stick with the pleasure of the senses. > > Metta > Michael 30872 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > It's strange [well, conditioned I suppose], but just today as I > was cleaning out some old papers etc. I came across some 'roneo-d' > sheets with the heading "Discussions in Sri Lanka 1979" the very year > I was there with my then, small daughter Zoe. ..... ...and those were the notes I jotted down during those discussions;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30873 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Howard I have copied below the brief description for benefits (1) and (2) of the develoopment of concentration. As I read it, (1) applies to the Arahant only (not at all to the non-arahant). Of course, the arahant does not do anything because he 'needs' to, but because either of past accumulations or of seeing the benefit involved. As regards (2), it can only be proximate cause for one who has developed insight. It is not given as a means to the development of insight, as I see it. Jon 120 - Herein, the benefits of the development of concentration are fivefold, as a blissful abiding here and now, and so on. [1] For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration, thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. Hence the Blessed One said: 'But, Cunda, it is not these that are called effacement in the noble ones' discipline; these are called blissful abidings in the noble ones' discipline' (M.i,40). [2] When ordinary people and trainers develop it, thinking, 'After emerging we shall exercise insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause of insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances].[45] Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S.iii,13). --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - ... > [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with > cankers destroyed) > [2] proximate cause for insight > [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge > [4] condition for birth in Brahma world > [5] cessation (for noble ones) ============================ I find (1) and (2) of particualr interest. I find (1) interesting for two reasons: Buddhaghosa points it out as a blissful abiding here and now" particularly for arahants. On the one hand, that makes a lot of sense: they've done what is needed to be done, so for them it is just a "vacation spot"! On the other hand, being free of all aversion and clinging, why do they have need for such an abiding? I find (2) interesting, because it shows why jhanas are sometimes defined as right concentration, and why right concentration is an important aspect of the path (however one interprets 'path' ;-). 30874 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael M> There is no human life without pleasure, right? k: That is why Buddha say his teaching is against the stream because wordlings like me always thought if there is no pleasure what is the meaning of being human. It is difficult to tell people that human pleasure is dukkha. M: There are only two kinds of pleasure, not a third one. Pleasure of the senses and jhanas. If one does not enjoy the pleasure of jhanas what does he/she enjoy? Pretty obvious isn't it? K: When I said jhanas bliss it is in terms of stream entrant level bliss till Arahant (Nibbana bliss) and not those experience by worldings in rupas or arupas jhanas. Anyway even clinging to bliss before one reach Arahant, is still not condone by Buddha. So where is there enjoyment (in terms of human enjoyment) of so call jhanas pleasure. It must be an Arahant jhanas bliss which I think what Buddha describe as bliss abiding here and now. Ken 30875 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello James, and thank-you for the encouragement to keep reading the pitaka. > However, I regret to have to direct your attention to the Maha- satipatthana > Sutta DN 22, where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as > sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana. > > N 22.21 > "And what is sama-samadhi? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & > remains in the first jhana... > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks What you write here is misleading. The Maha-Satipatthana Sutta, The Greater Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, contains the additional section on contemplation of the Four Noble Truths that the Satipatthana Sutta doesn't contain. You write "where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana" but this is not true. The Four Noble Truths are to be contemplated as mind objects but not really practiced. These are thoughts, not actual actions or results. This section also lists the first Noble Truth that life is suffering, so, in essence, you are also saying that Satipatthana results in suffering!! ;-)) Jeff, only the first jhana allows for directed thought and evaluation, the rest of the jhanas don't have directed thought or evaluation. Satipatthana has directed thought and evaluation every step of the way. Do you now understand the difference? The Buddha does give one sutta, to a particular monk, where he is to use the meditation objects of: Good Will, Compassion, Body, Feelings, Mind, and Mental Qualities in such a way as to reach each of the jhanas (thought the term `jhana' is never used, just the appropriate description). However, this monk is to use each of these objects in successive steps, one after the other, as the Buddha specifically instructs: first: Good Will, second: Compassion, etc. It is a very odd sutta and I don't think it applies to everyone, just this particular monk in question: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html (My edition of the AN doesn't contain this sutta. I would like to read the commentary notes about it. Does anyone else have the commentary notes?) However, even in this case the description for the practice is very different than how the Four Frames of Reference are presented in the Satipatthana Sutta. Metta, James 30876 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Michael Respecfully butting in... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I have not elaborated on this idea a lot but I tend to see a parallel between the attachment to rites and rituals prevalent at the time of the Buddha and our modern attachment to science. That all problems in life and all answers can be solved by science. I think science is our modern rites and rituals. But as I said I would have to work on that to substantiate my arguments. At this point it is just a thought. What do you think of that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- More or less, Michael! Science has the right prize on all this kind of arguments... when Galileo raised up his controversy about the true movement of Sun , Moon, the planets and etc, he was not only fighting up against mere superstitious remarks: Aristotle was the true ruler of all Middle Ages Ideas, and go against him was not only heresy, but a real punch on all philosophical, political, cultural, religious, etc, concepts, feelings and ideas. And it was a dare act of this man of science, so faithful to Rome and the Catholic Church! Science nowadays is the divine architect of our world in all senses. It has its own rites ? Unfortunately yes! When I was carrying on the Doctorate Grade on National Observatory of Rio de Janeiro ( Before decoming the 2 Lieutennant-Engineer Ícaro, of FAB!!!)I try to demonstrate an intrincate equation on eletromagnetic waves propagating on vacuum to my teacher, and he answered: "all right! All right, boy! But the formula we use here at Observatory IS THAT ONE!" Magister Dixit, Causa finita! Buddha has not so many hindrances and misconceptions as Aristotle (uff!!!!), but reading the quotes Good Larry has posting here on Vism, about movement of air and feelings on our vocal strings and etc, I see and confess that the great Buddhaghosa is a genius, but at Physical Sciences he has a long, long way to Tipperary to thread up! Mettaya, Ícaro 30877 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Dear RobK I got my Duroseille's and the Dhammasangani ( metta.lk version) on ring binders, and that's a good idea! Only the Visuddhimagga I asked to my retailer will be harcover (BPS version... they hadn't the Paryatti paperback edition!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I > made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that > came later. > Here is an url to the cemetery. Turns out it is only 228 acres - but > still New Zealand's largest. > http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/history.asp > It has gentle hills; places with little glades; eerie valleys where > the very old graves are all overgrown. Nice memories. > RobertK > P.s. I was thinking of selling the old house near there we used to > live in (now rented out). Hmm maybe the Adams > family ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Please don't go... Don't gooooooooooooooo......" Mettaya, ícaro 30878 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 6:01:09 PM Central Standard Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: Hello James and Jack, I would very much like to read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article, because I believe it supports my premise as well. Is the article online? I would like to read it. Jeff, Here is the article's location: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Jack 30879 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/2/04 4:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard, on the meaning of vinnana in D.O. I think it refers to the seeing, > hearing and so on - results of kamma, thus conditioned by sankhara (in > this case referring to kammic formations. Don’t confuse it with ~nana or > wisdom or sati (awareness). > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't confuse it with ~nana, wisdom, or sati - rather the opposite. I was distinguishing vi~n~nana from ~nana. I understand vi~n~nana as subjectivity - as a seeming of subjective knowing, a knowing by a "self" or subject of experience. The content of experience is, of course, all conditioned, and it is conditioned by many factors, among which are formational processes (sankhara). But vi~n~nana/subjectivity is an especially ignorance-fueled sankharic fabrication, and the ignorance that spurs the arising of such subjectivity is the basis for dukkha. The vedantists took subjectivity and raised it to majestic levels, identifying ultimate reality with pure subjectivity, leaving all else as illusion. The materialists, especially the behavioral materialists, take the opposite approach, coming close to denying experience in its entirety. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its > Commentary),Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli, Edited and > Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is > the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation > of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: > eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the > arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness.â€? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And why would it be any more advantageous for consciousness IN THE SENSE of experience to cease than for it not to cease? I say it would not. I say there best exist neither craving for experience nor for absence of experience. However, subjectivity via eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind is all advantageously abandoned, for it is all ignorance based. That is what I take to mean the cessation of vi~n~nana - the cessation of subjectivity. And it comes about with the cessation of ignorance. When the Buddha achieved his final liberation under the Bodhi tree, the unraveling aspect of paticcasamupada occurred. That included the cessation of vi~n~nana. But the Buddha did not thereby become insentient. No longer, however, did there remain even a wisp of sense of self, and without that, no ignorance-based fabricating, no arising of a sense of subjective knowing and known objects and doorways opening to connect them, whence no contact (of subject with object), no self-oriented feeling, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, no suffering. ------------------------------------------------------ > ***** > The commentary adds: > “In the section on consciousness, eye-consciousness (cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) is > consciousness in the eye or consciousness born from the eye. so also with > ear-, nose-. tongue-, and body consciousness. but with the other one, i.e > mind-consciousness (manovi~n~naa.na), mind itself is consciousness. This > is a designation for the resultant consciousness of the three (munane) > planes of existence except for the two groups of fiefold consciousness. > > With the arising of formations (sa’nkhaarasamudayaa): but here the arising > of consciousness should be understood to occur with the arising of > formations according to the method stated in the Visuddhimagga, as to > which formation is a condition for which consciousness (XV11, 175-185).â€? > ***** > Would you agree with this? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get much out of it to agree or disagree with. My understanding on this issue is as I indicated above and in previous posts on the topic. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30880 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Icaro, My contention is not about the contents of science, whether the affirmations made by scientists of different ages are valid or not. My contention is that the relationship people have today with science has a parallel with the relationship people in ancient times had with rites and rituals. In the sense that in the past rites and rituals is where people would go in search of answers and solutions for all problems and today people deposit their faith in science to provide all the answers and solutions. There is almost a sort of blind faith in the power of science. It is in relation to those aspects that I see the attachment people have today to science as being similar to past attachments to rites and rituals. Metta Michael 30881 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Michael Right. I think that was the old August Comte's Positivism that stipulated Science as standing on a higher foot than religion or mysticism: Shamanism and Magic rituals always promised control of Nature to work FOR you and not AGAINST you, with results more or less consistent with its so called premises...but Science was not only promised such feats but effectively did it at large, reshaping the world, raising up not only the Titanic or the but all stands of common life at levels barely dreamed on few centuries ago. Of course you get yet famine, poverty, pestilence, ill-posed science concepts... but could you ever imagine Paris at Molière's time compared with the present day Paris ? Unthinkable! What I was intending to say is that even the modern "Man of Science" get such fetishism on science and attachment at formulae, methods, kinds of experiments and so on. If there is such "Blind Faith on Science" is not fault of Science itself, but of ...hmmm...bad scientists and researches that could prefer build up a charlatanism "in nomine scientarum" than make down real work. I get some personal experiences on this field, mainly at Quantum Mechanics teaching Métier: some paragon and strange physical ideas are easily manipulated to obscure things so prosaic like personal vanities! I am quite optmist about science. Sir James G. Frazer, at the final chapter of his masterpiece "The Golden Bough" said that someday magic could take out the Interpretation of Nature laurels of science's hands. I could call this sabotage!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30882 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Howard, May I butt in? no 1 just reminded me of a sutta text, Maha Parinibbanasutta: 32, where the Buddha says to Ananda: I am old, etc. It is only when he . no 1: think of it, no bodily painful feeling either. This was also mentioned when the Buddha suffered from pain, and this was the only time without pain. 2 (but Jon may have mentioned this before): only possible for those who have the masteries of jhaana, entering and emerging whenever they wish, so that jhanacitta arises perfectly natural for them. in that case it can be proximate cause for insight, that also has to be developed. If there are no masteries, jhana will not be proximate cause for insight. op 02-03-2004 00:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with >> cankers >> destroyed) >> [2] proximate cause for insight >> [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge >> [4] condition for birth in Brahma world >> [5] cessation (for noble ones) > ============================ > I find (1) and (2) of particualr inte?est. > I find (1) interesting for two reasons: Buddhaghosa points it out as a > blissful abiding here and now" particularly for arahants. On the one hand, > that makes a lot of sense: they've done what is needed to be done, so for them > it is just a "vacation spot"! On the other hand, being free of all aversion > and clinging, why do they have need for such an abiding? > I find (2) interesting, because it shows why jhanas are sometimes defined as > right concentration, and why right concentration is an important aspect of the > path (however one interprets 'path' ;-). 30883 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Dear Connie and James, Connie, thank you for your post. This is one of the necessary qualifications for becoming a Buddha, as is stated in the sutta (A.I. 15.2.2.), and explained in the co to the Caryapitaka B.B. Net of Views, p. 262. He has to be a male. I can add to a female's wit: in another sutta (Kindred Sayings) the Buddha said, that as to the development of right understanding even up to the stage of arahat, men and women are equal. James, the Buddha was the perfected one, the fully enlightened one. He had accumulated the perfections for aeons. The arahat has eradicated all defilements, latent tendencies included. No trace left. He sometimes spoke to the monks about women in a way that seems rather harsh to us, but, he thought of the monks who might be attracted to them. The other day we talked about ariyan and arahat: you can find this in Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka. If you do not have this already, it is very helpful to understand suttas, do not mind the Pali, you will surely enjoy this, it makes pleasant reading. It explains many terms that you meet when reading suttas. He gives many sutta references for the terms used. It is also on line. Nina. op 02-03-2004 02:29 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: > Are there female Buddhas? 30884 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:14am Subject: verbal intimation, Tiika and note 29 verbal intimation, Tiika and note 29 Tiika: Atthaavabodhanasamattho vaciiviseso vaciibhedo. Speech utterance is the difference in voice so that one is capable to understand a meaning. Tena vaayuvanappatinadiighosaadi.m nivatteti. Therefore, this excludes the sound of the wind in the forest that is unobstructed, and so on. Tassa pavattaka.m citta.m samu.t.thaana.m yassaa saa vaciibhedappavattakacittasamu.t.thaanaa, pathaviidhaatu. That which is originated by citta in the case of the occurrence of speech intimation originated by citta, is the earth element. Tassaa ya.m upaadinnasa"nkhaatassa akkharuppatti.t.thaanassa gha.t.tanasa~n~nita.m kicca.m, The so-called knocking together of what is reckoned as grasped materiality and the place where the syllables arise is its function, tassa sahakaariikaara.nabhuuto aakaaraviseso vaciivi~n~natti naamaati dassento aaha ³vaciibheda..pe..pe.. vaciivi~n~nattii²ti. and while he explained that the mode of change that has become a cooperating cause for this is called verbal intimation, he said: ³The utterance of speech...etc. is verbal intimation.² ****** English: Speech utterance is the difference in voice so that one is capable to understand a meaning. Therefore, this excludes the sound of the wind in the forest that is unobstructed, and so on. That which is originated by citta in the case of the occurrence of speech intimation originated by citta, is the earth element. The so-called knocking together of what is reckoned as grasped materiality and the place where the syllables arise is its function, and while he explained that the mode of change that has become a cooperating cause for this is called verbal intimation, he said: ³The utterance of speech...etc. is verbal intimation.² **** note 29.Text: 'The question, "It is the mode and the alteration of what?", should be handled in the same way as for bodily intimation, with this difference: for "next to the apprehension of the appearance of movement" substitute "next to the hearing of an audible sound". And here, because of the absence of stiffening, etc., the argument beginning "For it is the air element given rise to by the seventh impulsion" does not apply; for the sound arises together with the knocking together, and the knocking together only applies in the case of the first impulsion, and so on. N: Quoting from the Co to Abhidhamma Sangaha (p. 226): Thus this is different from bodily intimation where only the seventh javanacitta originates bodily communication. Text: The knocking together is the arising of groups of primaries (bhuuta-kalaapa) in proximity to each other due to conditions. The movement is the progression of the successive arising in adjacent locations. This is the difference. N: The movement: this refers to bodily intimation, as we have seen. Verbal intimation is knocking together. I quote from the Co to Abhidhamma Sangaha (p. 226): In conventional language we can speak of the vocal cords. Text: The earth element's knocking together is parallel to the air element's moving as regards function' (Pm. 452). ***** Nina P.S. After this note, still another part of Tiika about mind-door, I shall translate. 30885 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/2/04 1:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > May I butt in? no 1 just reminded me of a sutta text, Maha Parinibbanasutta: > 32, where the Buddha says to Ananda: I am old, etc. It is only when he > comfortable.> . > no 1: think of it, no bodily painful feeling either. This was also mentioned > when the Buddha suffered from pain, and this was the only time without pain. > 2 (but Jon may have mentioned this before): only possible for those who have > the masteries of jhaana, entering and emerging whenever they wish, so that > jhanacitta arises perfectly natural for them. in that case it can be > proximate cause for insight, that also has to be developed. If there are no > masteries, jhana will not be proximate cause for insight. ======================== Thank you for this. I do understand that this would be a means of avoiding bodily pain for the Buddha. My question, however, is a more basic one: Why would a Buddha, or more generally an arahant, being entirely freed of tanha, want to *avoid* pain? Why would he want to *escape* from it into an absorptive state? Would that not be aversion? I think this is an important matter, as it pertains to exactly what if any limitations there are to "complete liberation". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30886 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 0:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Michael, I agree with you. I am not a scientist and probably will use the wrong terms, but I think that scientific enquiry often focuses on ever smaller relationships between things and the affects they have on each other. Sometimes small portions of knowledge are encapsulated, and the scientists can lose sight of the bigger picture. Their fragments of knowledge can become a God in itself, rather than being seen as only one tiny specialised window onto the universe and its teeming population of beings. . People who are the experts in science are also assumed to be mature, highly ethical and operating for the good of all beings. Current certainties in science are only certainties until someone else's research throws doubts on them. But, by that time, whole new systems can have been created and the affects on populations can often be negative. This has been noticeable in the are of psychosocial research and the therapies that arose from that. Government policy and legislation can even be based on such science, only to be considered by later generations as premature reliance on incomplete knowledge which may have had damaging results in people's lives, the lives of non-human beings, and the environment. Scientists often have no control over the use their findings are put to, and, now as always, the three poisons of greed, hate and delusion control the world, metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Icaro, > > My contention is not about the contents of science, whether the affirmations made by scientists of different ages are valid or not. My contention is that the relationship people have today with science has a parallel with the relationship people in ancient times had with rites and rituals. In the sense that in the past rites and rituals is where people would go in search of answers and solutions for all problems and today people deposit their faith in science to provide all the answers and solutions. There is almost a sort of blind faith in the power of science. It is in relation to those aspects that I see the attachment people have today to science as being similar to past attachments to rites and rituals. > > Metta > Michael 30887 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Dhamma notes[dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hello Sarah, RobK, Azita and all, It would be wonderful, and beneficial to us all if you could give us any further excerpts from your notes and correspondence that help to increase understanding. One of the one-liners that leaped off the page for me, was: "It is kindness to others if we don't cling to them or encourage them to be attached to us." How hard is this! Part of my instant assessment of others is whether I like them or not. Part of my remaining in contact with others is whether I like them or not. Most of my unhappiness relates to being separated from those I am attached to, and having to be with those to whom I am definitely not attached, and having others who are not attached with the same intensity to me as I am to them (or vice versa). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > > It is kindness to others if we don't cling to them or > encourage them to be attached to us. > 30888 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:34pm Subject: Re: Scholars and Meditators Hello Philip, James and all, This sutta comes up from time to time on dsg. You may like to read an earlier 'appearance' at Post 7421: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7421 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30889 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:28pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeable different/correction Sorry, Everyone ~ | | Somehow, I don't imagine the woman who repeated the AN to a full court | of other women took offense at Buddha's words. Or if she did, she | considered that vewwy kewhfuwwy and still chose to repeat them with the | utmost reverance. These women drilled holes in the walls just to watch | this man walk down the street. They must have treasured every word he | said and worshipped every little move he made. Most - actually I think | all of them - are said to have paid him the highest honour by attaining | some level of enlightenment. | I was thinking of the Itivuttaka, not the AN. peace, connie 30890 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hello all. I've been enjoying these same discussion notes, and for other newcomers like myself they can be found here: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Azita, > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > It's strange [well, conditioned I suppose], but just today as I > > was cleaning out some old papers etc. I came across some 'roneo- d' > > sheets with the heading "Discussions in Sri Lanka 1979" the very year > > I was there with my then, small daughter Zoe. > ..... > ...and those were the notes I jotted down during those discussions;- ) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > 30891 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Dear Howard and Group, Glad to see you considering this in various ways. I just give a hint now. http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm#348 This is the story Of Uggasena. he was a famous acrobat and was at the top of a sixty foot pole performing a dangerous stunt. The Buddha came to where he was and all the people stopped looking at Uggasena adn turned to the Buddha. When Uggasena saw that he was being neglected and ignored, he just sat on top of the pole, feeling very discontented and depressed. The Buddha then addressed Uggasena, "Uggasena, a wise man should abandon all attachment to the khandha aggregates and strive to gain liberation from the round of rebirths." There and then at the top of the pole he became an arahant by seeing Was there samadhi - yes, there was that special samadhi that only the Buddhas can teach. Insight into the five khandhas as they arise in the present moment. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Thank you for repeating this worthwhile old post. It occurs to me that > there is a matter that might relate to the content of it, somewhat obliquely, > of course. There may well be two sorts of (truly absorptive) jhanas, one > being the sort predating the Buddha, in which most investigative faculties are > dulled to the point of nonexistence, and a second in which investigation of > dhammas is yet possible. In the Anupada Sutta, detailing Sariputta's use of jhanas > (all of them) in attaining final release, it is said that in every one of the > basic eight jhanas except the last, in addition to the conditions that > characterize the jhana, there are also available all of the following: > > > ... contact, feelings, perceptions, intentions, interest, resolution, > > effort, equanimity and attention > > Tangentially related to this is the claim made by Ven Sheng- Yen, the > Ch'an master, that the "absorptive states > of Mahayana", in contradistinction from those of "hinayana", are such that > "normal" abilities are available to the practitioner while in them. Now, > despite the pro-Mahayana propaganda involved in this, there may be something > significant that is genuinely being pointed to here. > > With metta, > Howard >> > > 30892 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:34pm Subject: Dear Group, I have been discussing off-list with Nina and others and have now decided not to leave dsg but instead take a sabbatical for the next 5 or 6 months. The sound of Dhamma is a profound melody and can be drowned out when surrounded by prattle and noise. The Dhamma can be devalued when it is not given and received in a very respectful way. http://www.vipassana.info/d.htm#Udayi Robertk 30893 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Philip, This (kusala) practice is known in abhidhamma as 'di.t.thujukkama', straightening or correction of views. Very important I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:13 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks ...I think the flow of ideas in discussion here can become like a form of practice... 30894 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: Back to the cushion Hi Philip, Thanks for your reply: ----------------- P: > This is probably not the best time to add to the "to sit or not" debate, but I guess that is ongoing, so no harm done. ----------------- As I see it, the `to sit or not' debate is a side issue. The main issue is that there are only paramattha dhammas arising, here and now, at one of the six doors. This is a profound and far-reaching truth. I find it far more inspiring, challenging and life-changing than my formal meditation ever was. Unfortunately, the two approaches are incompatible and so disagreements must arise. ----------------- P: > I do basic, beginner's vipassana as taught in "Mindfulness in Plain English" with the breath as meditation object. Or should I say "had been doing." I had no ambition to ever become a jhana practicioner, believing right off the bat, perhaps incorrectly, that it was out of the question living in a modest-sized apartment with noisy neighbours on all sides and a time-demanding, non- contemplative wife awaiting my reappearance in the kitchen to cook or wash the dishes. :) ---------------- It is such a relief to be back in a world where those daily activities take priority. Previously (in my meditating days) I resented them as disruptions to my `calm Buddhist mind.' Now, they can be appreciated as opportunities for dana, sila and bhavana. ---------------- P: > I always felt that the meditation was just an exercise getting me ready for the day ahead, because it seemed to me that mindfulness during the day was more important, somehow. I guess that's one reason I've responded so favourably to the kind of examination of realities taught in Nina's books, though I've only begun to grasp what it is. ---------------- You are grasping them quickly which means you must be doing something right:-) My guess is you have understood the difference between concepts and realities. Otherwise, the significance of nama and rupa could not be appreciated. ----------------- P: > ["Mindfulness in Plain English"] recommended Metta contemplation as a warm-up exercise for vipassana, ------------------- Undoubtedly, metta is a good conditioning practice for vipassana -- this is the sort of thing we learn by studying paramattha dhammas. Does your book explain that metta, as a form of adosa, is a conditioned cetasika? That means it is not a series of steps to be carried out while seated on a cushion. ---------------- P: > This evening, I was reading this excellent article about spiritual materialism that James (thank you James) was kind enough to link me to in response to my concerns about my motivations of practice the other day: http://www.sacred- texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Here is a passage from it: "The Lords' defenses are created out of the material of our minds. This material of mind is used by the Lords in such a way as to maintain the basic myth of solidity. In order to see for ourselves how this process works we must examine our own experience. "But how," we might ask, "are we to conduct the examination? What method or tool are we to use?" ------------------ Excellent question! There is no "we" who can use anything ("we" being only a figure of speech) so the answer must be the cetasika, `panna' – right understanding of realities as taught by the Buddha. ---------------- ST: > The method that the Buddha discovered is meditation. -------------- Meaning momentary meditation, of course (what other meditation is there in reality?), in which panna arises to know either a conditioned dhamma or Nibbana. --------------- ST: > He discovered that struggling to find answers did not work. It was only when there were gaps in his struggle that insights came to him. He began to realize that there was a sane, awake quality within him which manifested itself only in the absence of struggle. ---------------- For that reason, he explained (in the Ogha Sutta, for example) that the flood was crossed, `not by struggling and not by standing still.' The middle way between these two is right understanding and the momentary arising of Path Consciousness. ------------------- ST: > So the practice of meditation involves "letting be." " (end of quote) ------------------- But, does it? Depending on how you look at it, `letting be' could be described either as struggling (to let be) or as standing still. It doesn't sound like one of the functions of the Middle Way. In other words, I don't think Right Understanding, Right Thought or any other Right cetasikas carry out the function of `letting be.' (I could be wrong, of course, but I think the author has missed the point (missed the middle way).) -------------------- Ph: > In my case, when I did my beginner's vipassana, a big part of it was getting comfort out of whatever calm I accessed, ------------------ I know what you mean: My old idea was that we, would-be-disciples should be experiencing calm and wisdom just like the true (noble) disciples do. The Buddha described worldlings as habitually having lobha dosa and moha. Why, then, are we so determined to see alobha, adosa and amoha? Are we trying to prove the Buddha wrong? :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Ken, and James, and all. > I've been intending to get back to a question that Ken was kind > enought to ask the other day. 30895 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Hi Robert and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been discussing off-list with Nina and others and have now > decided not to leave dsg but instead take a sabbatical for the next > 5 or 6 months. > The sound of Dhamma is a > profound melody and can be drowned out when surrounded > by prattle and noise. The Dhamma can be devalued > when it is not given and received in a very respectful way. > http://www.vipassana.info/d.htm#Udayi So good to hear this. And thank you Nina for talking Robert into not leaving. I agree that much precious time is wasted in talking about non- dhamma. I notice that I often treat the discussions here almost as a form of entertainment rather than serious reflection, so I tend not to be so discriminative. The objects of Lobha just keep changing. We are supposed to swim against the current, but more often than not it seems that I am flowing with it. And I am not talking about sensual pleasures, but 'dhamma discussions'!! I just realized, reading your forwarded post quoting the Mulapariyaya Sutta, that I am not even this: ""Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling' who is learning and developing correctly: p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"endquote"" Being involved in Dhamma discussions does not automatically make us the "good worldling". How much in a day, there is any practice, be it ordinary kusala or satipatthana. And when I remind myself of this, there is mana and the urge to "do" something about it. And there the notorious "self" surfaces. Indeed I am very, very far from the goal!! But now I remember Azita ;-) , so patience and courage. And since you Robert, say that you will remain here, I have good cheer! :-) Metta, Sukin 30896 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings James Reading your post, it's almost as though you value style over content, and assume the same in others too (perhaps it goes with being a champion debater ;-)). James, everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes good writing or speaking style, but I'm sure you'd agree that it would be a shame to allow these personal idiosyncrancies to interfere with one's appreciation of the message, especially a message as vitally important as the very basic aspects of the teaching (nama and rupa, the five aggregates, etc, understanding of the present moment) that form the bulk of Nina's writings. On the question of content, there will of course always be disagreements, but I think it's reasonable for someone in Nina's position to expect specifics to be given, rather than to have to ponder vague and general statements, such as you are inclined to make (an example being your comment here that 'you present dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as temporary phenomena with no essence'). I doubt that she is particularly bothered by one person's subjective view, but if what you say is indeed the impression left with the reader, then she would obviously like to know more detail, if for no other reason than to consider appropriate re-wording in future. Jon --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Nina, > ... > Hi Nina, ... > I will comment to this issue of your writing however. (Perhaps the > fact that I like Y. Karundasa's writing on the Abhidhamma more than > yours has inspired this line of questioning?) Honestly, your > writing > style doesn't greatly appeal to me because I like more `vibrancy' > in > writing and also philosophical explanations. Your writing is very > plain and packed with details (I thought I had covered this > before??). However, your writing does appeal to many others. > Writing is a matter of taste and there is no one style that is > superior to others. You write in a style that helps to encourage > detachment from the words and the style. That is commendable. I > like fancy words and flowery language; what can I say? ;-)) The > Buddha also used colorful language when the situation warranted it, > and he sometimes used very simple speech. You write in a language > that is not your mother tongue so it is by necessity simplistic. I > am a published writer but that doesn't mean I am an expert about > all > writing. As far as content, I have some disagreements about how > you > present dhammas, rupa especially. In summary, I pretty much agree > with all that Michael says in this regard. I believe you present > dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as > temporary phenomena with no essence. 30897 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:misunderstandings cleared up Hi James, op 02-03-2004 12:31 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...:> > I am not going to answer these questions in detail. They are too > vast and complicated to try to tackle. Why drudge up the past? N: I understand what you mean. Actually, it seemed to me also rather a lot of work. j: Let me quote from Ven. K. Piyatissa Thera for something to > contemplate: > "All things are momentary. N: I like this quote. J:Honestly, your writing > style doesn't greatly appeal to me .... You write in a style that helps to encourage > detachment from the words and the style. That is commendable. N: You got that right. Spot on! Although we do not agree on many topics, often you sense things surprisingly right, and what you say here is exactly what I have in mind: detachment from the words. That is the essence to me. I am aiming at that, just reminding myself and learning to see right through all words and terms and to come to understand reality, dhamma. J: I like fancy words and flowery language; what can I say? ;-)) The > Buddha also used colorful language when the situation warranted it, > and he sometimes used very simple speech..... As far as content, I have some disagreements about how you present dhammas, rupa especially. N: That is fair enough. Others also have trouble with rupas, I know. However, I think it is always very nice to have exchanges, like I have with Howard. I do not see those as polemics. J: In summary, I pretty much agree > with all that Michael says in this regard. I believe you present > dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as > temporary phenomena with no essence. N: Here I do not agree, but I can refer to all the discussions there were on this list with Michael. I like to refer to Jon who clearly explained this matter. Of course disagreements are bound to occur. That is no problem for me. We can quietly and at ease discuss all such topics. There is one matter I hesitantly bring up: I think in the past your speech was not always so gentle. I do not mean, though, at this very moment. When we bring something forward with gentle speech it is always more convincing. If speech is harsh, people become irritated and will not listen anymore. I asked you all those questions, because honestly, it seemed to me that very often you uttered your dismay, and strongly so, about Abhidhamma and the Commentaries as going against the Buddha's teachings. I was always wondering why you spoke like that. I thought that this surely must be because of misunderstandings about what is exactly in the texts. But I am glad that you say that all this is past. It is completely gone! Thus, we can change the heading of this Email: misunderstandings cleared up! Nina. 30898 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Dear Azita, Lovely, please go on! I remember I had those notes too. Was it from Susie? O, from Sarah! Nina. op 02-03-2004 13:10 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, > it is impossible to develop right understanding. 30899 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Dear Ken O, op 02-03-2004 12:30 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > It can be. You can ask Lodewijk next time;-) Only sati will know, not the > other person. In truth, I have no doubt there were kusala and akusala > cittas arising for us both during the conversation;-)No need to pinpoint > exactly what citta started the conversation. Impossible to know;-) N: Ken, Lodewijk was telling Sarah that he helps me with the dishes so that I have more time for Dhamma writing. He does not hide his kusala, and then others can have kusala cittas as well. It is a kind of sharing. You can perform this kind of kusala without having to think about it: let me now tell the others. It can happen spontaneously. Thus you see, this dishwashing subject was about kusala. Nina. 30900 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Someone wrote: "If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, it is impossible to develop right understanding." L: Wrong understanding is just desire. Right understanding is just non-desire. The 'dependent arising' shows this; but you are right, most of our desire is hidden. We don't know the half of it. Larry 30901 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Rob K Good news indeed! We're glad you've been persuaded to stick around. By all means take a break, but no need to set any fixed time for it! Looking forward to seeing you back on the list sooner rather than later. In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. Jon --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been discussing off-list with Nina and others and have now > decided not to leave dsg but instead take a sabbatical for the next > 5 or 6 months. > The sound of Dhamma is a > profound melody and can be drowned out when surrounded > by prattle and noise. The Dhamma can be devalued > when it is not given and received in a very respectful way. > http://www.vipassana.info/d.htm#Udayi > Robertk 30902 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hi Azita & Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > Lovely, please go on! I remember I had those notes too. Was it from > Susie? > O, from Sarah! .... I remember Alan W mentioning he was putting them on Zolag, but I never checked. Azita, when I visited you all in Maleny, Qld the next year, I gave you copies, I think. Thanks for requoting them - they are just as helpful for me now as all those years back. Here's another one I find very helpful (forget which notes): "Be the understanding person" Metta, Sarah ======= 30903 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re:misunderstandings cleared up Hi Nina and All, Nina: We can quietly and at ease discuss all such topics. There is one matter I hesitantly bring up: I think in the past your speech was not always so gentle. I do not mean, though, at this very moment. When we bring something forward with gentle speech it is always more convincing. If speech is harsh, people become irritated and will not listen anymore. James: I have been exchanging with Sarah and you off-list about this matter of my `harsh' speech. I know that you often stick up for me to others when they complain about my `harsh' speech, and I do appreciate that. So, why is my speech so harsh? Well, to me it really isn't that harsh at all; but you see, I have been conditioned from my upbringing in a very different way than you and most people. I have very rustic, mid-western parents who are not highly educated and they both use EXTREMELY harsh speech. Actually, both my mother and my father hardly speak a sentence that doesn't contain a curse/cuss word! That is, when they are speaking to family and friends. However, they don't always mean something bad by it. Let me give you an example, Here is the most recent e-mail that my father wrote to me, (with the cuss words disguised): james i hope you receave this it will be short .i have sent you 5 e mails with no ressp once.i had to sh*t. hope it did not tahe long.james i nead to move the a t v .whear is the key.if i reseave a responce. i will tell you all the sh*t that is go on. LOL! So, you see, to me my speech is really not that harsh at all compared to what I grew up listening to. If I wrote in this group like I spoke to my parents you would really have a fit! ;-)) However, you will notice that my letters to the Star Kids don't contain any `harsh' speech because I know that they are children. To me, I speak in a harsh way to adults because I have been conditioned to, but I speak a different way to children. To me, when I hear all of these complaints about my `harsh' speech I automatically think that you are being a bunch of babies! LOL! But, I will try my best to work on that and change the conditioning. It won't be easy but I will try. If I continue to upset people I will just leave this group. Nina: I asked you all those questions, because honestly, it seemed to me that very often you uttered your dismay, and strongly so, about Abhidhamma and the Commentaries as going against the Buddha's teachings. I was always wondering why you spoke like that. I thought that this surely must be because of misunderstandings about what is exactly in the texts. James: When it comes to the Abhidhamma and the commentaries to the Abhidhamma I can only go on what I read in this group; I least before I read Y. Karundasa. Honestly, Nina, I am still often dismayed at the way you present the dhamma. I still don't think it is the true teaching of the Buddha. I think it is something else. I don't write about this that much anymore because I have already made my points-- why bring it up again? I will reply to the post by Jon and your questions along these lines later. It will take a lot of work and to research some examples from your writing. I am very busy today with grading papers and, as you can read from my dad's letter, I need to write more often to my parents! ;-)) Metta, James 30904 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:misunderstandings cleared up Hi James & Nina, I appreciate your messages under this new subject line and all the sincerity and goodwill involved. Anumodana. James, thank you for your helpful explanation and good intentions too. When you have a moment, I'd be very glad if you'd select a sutta from Brahmanasamyutta to present with your comments. I also need to catch up with Christine and Azita in this section.... Metta and smiles:-), Sarah ===== 30905 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:34am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.4,§ 2.5.,§ 2.6. Dear Group, The section of this article on the fetters (samyojana) is quite large - people often speak of the pervasiveness of the fetters, and their danger. The danger is because? .... they tie one to the rounds of existence - and there is no guarantee that one will be reborn in human form, able to hear the Teachings, in a time when the Teachings of a Buddha are extant. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- Fetters as Fabrications § 2.4. "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... assumes form (the body) to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co- arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the (mental) fermentations. "Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form. "Now that assumption is a fabrication. What is the cause... of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by the feeling born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the (mental) fermentations. (Similarly with feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness.) "Or... he may have a view such as this: "This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change." This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: "I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine." This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication. "What is the cause... of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of- the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the (mental) fermentations." [SN XXII.81] ---------------------- Bowl of water metaphor - Sensual passion, ill will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and anxiety, and uncertainty § 2.5. "Imagine a bowl of water mixed with lac, yellow orpiment, indigo, or crimson, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by sensual passion, overcome with sensual passion, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from sensual passion once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water heated on a fire, boiling & bubbling over, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by ill will, overcome with ill will, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from ill will once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water covered with algae & slime, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by sloth & drowsiness, overcome with sloth & drowsiness, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, disturbed, & covered with waves, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by restlessness & anxiety, overcome with restlessness & anxiety, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from restlessness & anxiety once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water stirred up, turbid, muddied, & left in the dark, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by uncertainty, overcome with uncertainty, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from uncertainty once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both..." [SN XLVI.55] ------------------- The fetters as like a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country § 2.6. "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man falls sick -- in pain & seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man, carrying money & goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money & goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security." [MN 39] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30906 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:48am Subject: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hello all Another long one to come here. There won't be many of these, as worldly concerns will be catching up with me next week, so please bear with me. But I just had a very important dhamma event that I have to tell you about. I was lying on the living room floor, reading the moha chapter in Abhidhamma in Daily Life. My wife was on the sofa, reading. She got up and went in to the next room. Irea the following sentences: "Visible object is a paramattha dhamma, a reality; it is a kind of rupa which can be directly experienced through the eyes. Through touch hardness can be experienced; this is a kind of rupa which can be directly experienced through the body-sense, it is real. 'Tree' is a concept or idea of which we can think, but it is not a paramattha dhamma, not a reality which can be directly experienced. Visible object and hardness are paramattha dhammas and they can be directly experienced, no matter how one names them." And then, suddenly, I GOT it. I had read many times in the past week or so that the person is not the paramattha dhamma, the person is the conventional truth. I had thought of my darling wife, and predictably, resisted this idea, even while accepting it in theory. And here, suddenly, lying on my back with my wife in the next room, I got it. I understand it deeply, if that's the right word. I got it. You know what I mean. It wasn't as scary as I thought it would have been, because the Buddha didn't tech the truth to scare us - I have faith in that. And then I turned the same light on myself. I was still lying on my back, holding the book up. Ready, I said to my self, you are going to be extinguished. I felt a little like I used to when I was a child, and felt myself falling into sleep, and was unwilling to let go. And I let go. Tried to that is. But I couldn't. The self that had looked at my wife and had that insight was not going anywhere. I sensed it as a kind of clenched energy that was willing to let go. So I clearly saw my wife as rupa nad nama, but my understanding of my self in those terms was left in theory. So then I kind of transported my point of view to the sofa, and imagined I was my wife looking at me as I lay on the floor. And then it was easy to see Philip as nama and rupa, from her point of view. So there is progress there, but I have more evidence and first hand experience of how resistant the self is. My wife came back into the room. I looked at her. She was rupa and nama. I love her so. I adore her. That hadn't changed. She is doing a project on Chinese philophers for her university, and she told me some things about what she had figured out. So I decided to tell her about my insight. A bit warily. How would she react? So I told her, as best as I could. "Of course," she said. "Didn't you know that already?" And then added that as a Japanese that understand comes naturally to her, and exlains her interest in holistic medecine. "But aren't you scared," I asked. "We won't be together eternally. 'Baby you and I'" isn't true. (That's a love song I wrote for her in which we are reincarnated in various lives, still together in different forms) THe thing on the fridge isn't true." (The thing on the fridge if Anguttara Nikaya IV -55, see below) And there was a tender moment. I can't remember how the coversation went. Here is a passage from Nina's "Abhidhamma and Practice" : "When my husband takes my hand, there is, as we say, a ?ehuman contact?f. What are the realities? There is attachment and this is real, we do not have to try to suppress it. There can, in a very natural way, be study with mindfulness of a nama or a rupa. What appears through the body-sense? Not a person, not my husband. Heat or cold, hardness or softness can appear through the body-sense. We do not have to think about it, it can be directly experienced. Through mindfulness we can prove that no person is experienced through the body-sense, that a person does not exist. There is no person, only different namas and rupas appearing one at a time, and they do not stay. Clinging to people brings sorrow; eventually I will have to take leave from my husband, nothing is permanent. Through the development of insight, clinging to the concept of a person who exists can be eradicated." When I read this a few days ago, I was moved. There is such tenderness in it, I feel, but of course that is how I feel it and nothing more. Someone without knowledge of the Buddha's teaching would be horrified by it, probably, and feel it numbingly cold and impersonal. We know otherwise. Compare it with the "thing on the fridge" I referred to: "[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come." see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04- 055.html It's a comforting notion, but I find it hard to place it in line with the Buddha's other teachings. I almost suspect that it was added later to comfort followers. Not everyone is ready for the truth. As I've said before, I believe comforting concepts are important in Buddhism as conventional truth for those who are starting their journeys towards absolute truths. Anyways, just wanted to tell you about this big dhamma event. This thread might serve as a bit of an unintentional response to James' comment that he wonders if Nina presents the Buddha's teaching in an authentic way. Well, Ch 7 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life certainly does, because reading it triggered an arising of my first direct experience of annata. Well, almost direct. Much more direct than ever before. LOL my wife -let me call her Naomi from now on - wants to get on the computer and is making loud jokes about not existing to try to distract me. Time to go! Sorry, no time for proof reading. Metta, Philip 30907 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Philip > LOL my wife -let me call her Naomi from now on - wants to get on > the computer and is making loud jokes about not existing to try to > distract me. Time to go! Sorry, no time for proof reading. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Imaginary wife ? Old Dighamber Jains once postulated that woman were unable to reach Nibbana due the fact that they couldn´t have a soul... But now, following the sound Buddhistic logic: a Non-wife, due the fact that she has a no-soul, has a definite existence not only as a no-Ghoul, a no-Whistler´s Mother, no-mountain, no-Goodman Conditioned-Air apparatus, etc, but as a real being in the world partaking the main caracteristics of the note "wife"( two negative propositions raise up an affirmative one, which is in concordance with Mathematical logic: ~(~A)= A !!!). The non-A proposition is a positive and definite B assertion! So, at all means and senses, you better pay attention to your non-wife, because a non-wife is a wife! (Now pass me the Diamond Sutra!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30908 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Philip Sorry for the delay in replying (about par for me, I'm afraid; I'm usually somewhat behind in my replies). Metta is both a particular cetasika and a kind of bhavana. Within the 2-fold classification I mentioned, metta is samatha bhavana: it is kusala performed through the mind-door which, if developed to a high degree, can lead to high states of calm (but it is not insight and does not in and of itself lead to insight). I am not aware of any mention in the ancient texts of metta as a 'warm-up' exercise. Samatha bhavana is not a warm-up for vipassana bhavana, although some may see it that way. Metta is the kusala mental factor of adosa accompanying consciousness when the object of consciousness is a person. So whenever in our life another person is the object of our thinking/consciousness (that is to say, a very large part of our waking day), there is the (theoretical) opportunity for metta and, if it arises, for its development. So, there's no need to wait until one is one the cushion ;-)). If on the other hand it doesn't arise readily in 'real life' where its characteristic and kusala nature can be known, then the chances of being mistaken as to the actual mind-state occurring in 'formal practice' must be high, I would say. Hoping this give the info you're looking for. Happy to discuss further. Jon --- Philip wrote: > ... > Ph: I wonder where metta fits in here. If I recall correctly, in > the abhidhamma it's a cetasika, but in the suttanta is it ever > taught > as a kind of mental development? Here 's a verse from the Metta > sutta: > > > Mettañ ca sabba-lokasmim > Manasam bhavaye aparimanam > Uddham adho ca tiriyanca > Asambadham averam asapattam > > Cultivate an all-embracing mind of love > For all throughout the universe, > In all its height, depth and breadth -- > Love that is untroubled > And beyond hatred or enmity. > > The "bhavaye" must be something like cultivate/develop. But > since > the suffix is different I guess it's referring to a different > practice than bhavana. Could you or someone tell me the difference > between "bhavana" and "bhavaye?" I wish I could throw myself into > Pali study, but I'm already being very lazy about my Japanese. > > Since cultivating the Brahma-Viharas is so central to my > practice, > I'm curious to know if it is a form of bhavana along with samattha > and vipassana. The vipassana book I read (Mindfulness in Plain > English) recommended metta as a warm-up exercise. For me, it's a > practice all of it's own. > > Thanks again. > > Metta, > Philip 30909 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Ken O I pretty much agree with you, and especially that there will be mixed kusala and akusala when we speak. But I don't think we should get too hung up about this. After all, it's the same with our other everyday actions, too -- eating, walking, working, sleeping. None (or very little) of it is pure kusala, but that's not the point. Another thing to remember is that not all speech that is with akusala should be seen as wrong speech. An example would be exchanging pleasantries as a simple courtesy -- there may be little or no kusala, but it's not one of the kinds of wrong speech for lay persons (nor for monks, when exchanging pleasantries with other monks). So no need to think one should observe silence, or that with silence there'd be more kusala. Jon 30910 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Howard, > My question, however, is a more basic one: > Why would a Buddha, or more generally an arahant, being entirely > freed of tanha, want to *avoid* pain? Why would he want to > *escape* from it into an absorptive state? Would that not be > aversion? I think this is an important matter, as > it pertains to exactly what if any limitations there are to > complete liberation". In any existence, wealth is preferred over poverty, beauty is preferred over ugliness, health is preferred over illness, pleasure is preferred over pain. This is evident. This is the order of things as they are. They are agreeable by all. They are not disputed, even by arahats. They are independent of tanha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn26.html "And what constitutes a monk's pleasure? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This constitutes a monk's pleasure. Regards, Swee Boon 30911 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hello Jon, Jon: In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. Michael: I wonder what you mean by what you wrote. Does this imply a change in the moderation policy in the list? Metta Michael 30912 From: Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hi, Michael - In a message dated 3/3/04 10:25:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Jon: > In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise > to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the > Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. > > Michael: > I wonder what you mean by what you wrote. Does this imply a change in the > moderation policy in the list? > > Metta > Michael ========================= It sounds to me like a light expression of the intention to be watchful and intervene subtly so as to help prevent slight excesses from growing into great excesses. Isn't that a moderator's job? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30913 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeable different/correction Dear Connie, Here is a text about ariyan women (from my Rupas): Nina. op 03-03-2004 02:28 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: They must have treasured every word he > | said and worshipped every little move he made. Most - actually I > think > | all of them - are said to have paid him the highest honour by > attaining > | some level of enlightenment. > | > > I was thinking of the Itivuttaka, not the AN. 30914 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Howard, op 02-03-2004 19:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: sutta text, Maha Parinibbanasutta: >> 32, whe